One Guy's Effort To Learn Thai In 8 Weeks

[SoftWater]

Good for you Benny – you have shown that the Lonely Planet phrasebook can indeed be put to some use if only people will try.

You've certainly learned and used some Thai, and you won't hear me knocking that.

I appreciate that you didn't put much more than a few hours study in. As you found out (if you didn't know already), one of the main obstacles to language acquisition is that life just gets in the way. It's interesting that you see this as an excuse. I would say this is a fact of life that any teacher has to take into account when advising others about techniques and methods. The truth is that for the majority of people a second-language will always be a second (or third, or fourth, or fifth...) priority. Its interesting that even for you, with the added motivation of not making a tit out of yourself to a global audience, this still wasn't enough to make you put in more than a few hours. How hard do you think it is for others without that incentive? 'Excuse' is really not the right word, I don't think. Too negative. Try 'obstacle to be faced and dealt with'.

Which brings me to something far more important about your whole approach. I'm one of those 'academic, linguistic' type ESL teachers that you don't like, and here's what I see in the classroom on a (not frequent, but) fairly regular basis:

i. Students who've invested either hard cash or hard effort (or both) on some quick-fix-anyone-can-do-it language-learning method only to be disappointed and subsequently discouraged about improving their language skill by any other means when it doesn't work (it is psychologically interesting that they rarely think it's because the method was a load of bull; rather, they think it's because they are 'poor learners');

ii. the other equally damaging side of the coin is students who believe there is some quick fix 'anyone can do it' language method that will give them success, BUT they either cannot afford to pay for it or they cannot afford to invest the intensive investment of time in it. The result is that they become de-motivated about the 'slow burn', tried-and-tested, unglamorous offerings we give them at University because someone's convinced them they should and could 'be fluent in English in 3 months' if only they were doing it 'properly' – if it's so easy, they reason, why do teachers like me make such a big deal and say its all about repetition and remaining motivated, and – most importantly - being in it for the long haul?

People who sell the 'language learning is easy' line are not only talking bullshit, they are being profoundly unethical, causing far more harm to far more people in the long run than they are doing good in the short run with the ejaculatory and ephemeral 'confidence boost' they give with their vague motivational clichés.

When I saw you come along with this 'Fluent in 3 months' line I immediately thought: here we go, what's he selling?....nothing yet, it appears, but forgive my suspicion that you are attempting to build yourself a brand and that one day, I'll be digging this thread out of the archives and going 'told you....'.

Now to the positive stuff for everyone else:

Benny has shown that

A. You can learn vocab quicker if you use mnemonics.

Agreed, but the Thaivisa forum knew this already - 'petepete' posted on this a few months before Benny came along  http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Easy-Learn-T...es-t296968.html , and he was hardly the first.

B. Benny says learning a language is much like learning a musical instrument. (http://www.fluentin3months.com/language-is...cal-instrument/)

Agreed. I mentioned this in print in an academic journal (the sort that Benny despises) as long ago as 2006 (PM me if you're interested in the link); within Thaivisa, again, well before Benny came along, I've also likened it to other skills such as driving a car (http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Thai-Languag...html&st=400), (though no other skill is in any way as physically or psychologically complex to master than a second language is for an adult learner).

I'm not claiming originality for the thought – just pointing out what Benny didn't: that people have been saying this for a long, long time - even us 'academic - linguistic' teachers - indeed, the analogy is obvious once you recognize that language learning is a skill.

C. Learning the tone rules can be simplified, largely by recognizing that you only need to learn the high and middle class consonants.

Agreed – tones rules and short cuts have been done to death on this forum; I also posted on this a few months before Benny came along here http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Learn-Thai-t298472.html; one difference between my short cuts and Benny's is he merely states the rules – which doesn't take anyone very long to find and copy – whereas my thread, and many of the books that Benny disparages on his blog for "filling up 100s of pages' (surely an exaggeration?), contain practical exercises to help people learn the rules.

D. Benny claimed to have learned the alphabet and the tone rules in 5 hours

( http://www.fluentin3months.com/reading-thai-tones-is-easy/)

This one I don't buy. The only supporting evidence I can find for this is an assertion that goes "just because it took you (= anyone skeptical of his claim) longer it doesn't mean it can't be done."

I agree, it doesn't mean it can't be done at all. Personally, I did it in 2 weeks, and I have shown how most anyone else could do it in two weeks here http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Learn-Thai-t298472.html . I dare say it could be done faster, but 5 hours? A spaced repetition method to fix it in long term memory needs longer than that (see the Wikipedia article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaced_repetition). But, hey, I could be wrong. It may be worth pointing out that there's a difference between knowing what the tone rules are and knowing how to use them. The former is, dare I suggest, what Benny managed in 5 hours. He could have done it a lot quicker, for sure.

The trouble is that as far as I can see, other than vaguely referring to mnemonics and a few rule patterns, Benny is still not showing how anyone else can actually do this in 5 hours. I'm not saying its impossible – I'm saying I don't see how it's possible from the information Benny has given. And what that means is that Benny is making assertions – unsupported claims – that will certainly dishearten those that try to follow him and fail, and then blame themselves for not being as 'smart' as Benny ("I couldn't do it in 5 hours, I must be rubbish at languages...I'd best give up.")

Along with the lack of concrete details, one of the frustrating things about what Benny says is the way he persistently cries that people are being 'negative' whenever they beg to differ. The way he double insures himself against any kind of criticism is telling. On his blog he literally says:

i. he might be wrong about some stuff in Thai but he doesn't care; and

ii. he only wants to hear positive responses.

(You can see both of Benny's claims here http://www.fluentin3months.com/reading-thai-tones-is-easy/ a page that is also remarkable for having the word 'negativity' used 15 times. )

I'm reminded of all manner of 'unfalsifiable hypotheses' from Marxism and Creationism to Astrology and the workings of the GT200 bomb scanner....

Indeed, Benny's blog reminds me of a post I wrote some time ago on the Callan Method, and other similar language learning methods (http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Thai-Languag...html&st=400 )

What Benny and the Callan method share is a penchant for used-car salesman marketing methods – big flashy splashy claims on the windscreen that are progressively and substantially watered down upon examination of the specifics once you get inside the office.

So we started some 2 months ago with a wild claim of 'fluent in 3 months', which was then qualified to the even more vague 'Learn Thai in 8 weeks' (how much Thai?), which became, finally, the actually testable and verifiable claim to read something from a newspaper and to have lower intermediate speaking skills. To my huge disappointment, the one claim that would have really proved Benny had something to offer was reneged on.

So, I'm sorry Benny. It's neither personal nor negative, just a hard but fair assessment: I don't know what you're up to, but you're not up to anything that helps people who are serious about learning Thai.

If I'm a naysayer, then its over to you, the yeah-sayers.

Sw

Edited March 2, 2010 by SoftWater

[SoftWater]

It seems the internal links I posted didn't work (the externals are OK), so here they are again:

On Mnemonics

On language as a skill like driving a car and my complaints about the Callan Method.

A post on short cuts for [/url]http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Learn-Thai-t298472.htmltone rules with practical exercises in Thaivisa and how you can learn these and the alphabet in 2 weeks.

Sw

Edited March 2, 2010 by SoftWater

[leah]

For those who didn't make it over to his blog, he mentions there that he recorded that video over 15 times and edited out the parts where he didn't understand what was going on. I credit him with honesty for letting his readers know that, since obviously it would have been outright deceitful not to mention it at all. However I am left thinking his main accomplishments were the ability to say a few greetings and read a bit. This would actually be fine (certainly many people have accomplished less than that in even years, out of sheer lack of effort) except it is far, far from his original claims and runs counter to his assertions that a positive attitude is all it takes. Softwater, I have to agree that he is trying to build himself up to sell something - he has mentioned a future ebook a few times.

[irishpolyglot]

@anchan42 Thanks so much So far, all natives that I've shown the video to have loved it. Obviously there are proud and arrogant non-natives too, but they will never be pleased no matter what you do!

@Softwater Hmm, funny how apparently everything I've done here can be referenced to a post you wrote... where's your post on someone speaking from the very first day that they tried, I missed that one?

So, you have outdone yourself this time! That was one hel_l of a rant. I've bitten my tongue on a lot of undeserved insults on this site (hidden behind condescending flowerly language), so I'm going to respond to your ridiculous comments, obviously not to convince you but hopefully to show others reading this thread the other point of view.

I have a lot of critiques to what I've heard so many times for the typical "academic/linguistic" arguments that you have repeated here. I'll be writing a whole article about that, so there's no need to go into here as it would be off topic. I'll never prove myself to you, and that's what I "don't care about", not the fact that I'm wrong about things in Thai. You have completely misunderstood the whole purpose of what I was aiming for in Thailand and your lack of faith in people's genuine interest in helping others is quite sad.

Your comments have unnecessary venom in them after patronisingly congratulating me on my effort to soften the blow:

"So we started some 2 months ago with a wild claim of 'fluent in 3 months'" - did you even read my blog or the introduction post to Thai, other than specifically to find points to quote and tear down? Clearly not. I never ever implied that I was aiming for that; I was very very clear about my goals. Fluent in 3 months is the name of the blog, get over it. It's what I do most of the time; I'm not going to change the domain name for 2 months. You have never discussed my thai visa on this site and you haven't heard me complain about that.

"I'm one of those 'academic, linguistic' type ESL teachers that you don't like" - I was an ESL for 4 years (& mathematics teacher for 5 years before that) and I will be discussing particularly how ESL teachers make excellent language learners. You make a lot of presumptions about the way I think... my criticism is about the traditional academic approach. Good ESL teachers think outside the box (using games with children, putting away the books and making adult students interact with one another etc.) and I don't categorise them as linguists. They are smart learners/teachers. The tired old approach is not smart.

"by any other means when it doesn't work" - sweeping statement that the active approach of actually speaking and trying interesting learning methods rather than hiding behind books "doesn't work" shows that you are having trouble thinking outside of your own approach. It's hypocritical - you say I'm crazy for saying my approach is the best one, and you say yours is the best one.

"life just gets in the way" IS an excuse. I was able to communicate in Thai when I saw past this. If someone continued to use this excuse they'll never achieve anything outside of their routine of doing nothing but learn and never using.

"teachers like me make such a big deal and say its all about repetition and remaining motivated" - I have found nothing you have said to be remotely motivating, other than the introduction statement to soften your upcoming criticism. However you are definitely king of repetition.

"People who sell the 'language learning is easy' line are not only talking bullshit, they are being profoundly unethical, causing far more harm to far more people in the long run than they are doing good in the short run with the ejaculatory and ephemeral 'confidence boost' they give with their vague motivational clichés." We'll never agree on this - people should speak soon, and confidence is CRUCIAL in speaking a language. You clearly don't wish to give people confidence boosts, so I would likely rate you as a poor teacher even if you know all of your rules inside out.

"a page that is also remarkable for having the word 'negativity' used 15 times." You actually counted that?? That is just SAD. Get a life will ya! How did you see that and miss the pretty clear goals of what I was aiming for in this mission? My posts usually have 1,500-2,000 words in them and discuss attitude a lot. Negative attitudes like yours are detrimental to progress, so it's something I bring up loads.

"I don't know what you're up to, but you're not up to anything that helps people who are serious about learning Thai." Wow - I'm glad that I'll be getting out of this forum discussion soon. You really do have your head in the clouds. I've had countless people tell me that they have started speaking Thai thanks to my encouragement. With you as their guide they would be locked in a loop of constant learning forever. I feel sorry for anyone that follows your advice. Just because you know some facts does not make you a good teacher. You seem to have an inability to see the human side of it. People NEED to feel good about their progress to be motivated to make more.

I've encouraged others to try. My mission is to stop English speakers from giving up on speaking other languages and I'm sorry that you can't see that. I can see how my claim to do what I did in a short time can be viewed as arrogant, but reading your comment I see that you are profoundly arrogant yourself and inflexible in your learning approach. You are a sad person and I feel disappointed that you will continue spreading the above statements in this forum, and teaching your inefficient approach of drilling rules and discouraging not-perfect speaking attempts. In your above comments you were being nasty in an indirect way. I'm not beating around the bush like you. Your future comments don't deserve a response.

@leah & @softwater You will notice that the blog already has a "donate" button, and I have occasionally had affiliate links to Amazon (I didn't for the last 2 months since it wouldn't have helped). Other than that there is currently NO advertising at all on the site (despite the 1000-5000 views a day, which I could make money from if I added any kind of ads, but I haven't) and I have made pretty much no money at all from the site since I started it. The end of each other mission I blogged about was never followed up by a sales pitch.

However, I think you will find that every blog in the world with a considerable follower base monetises on the traffic in some way. I'm not going to release just some e-book, but I will be adding paid optional extras to the site that I'll be advertising, while the content of helpful language hack posts will continue as it does now so most people can just ignore it if they so choose. I'm going to be open about that and am not apologising for it because (as I said), I've spent the last 3 weeks locked in my room because of a debt. I'm not out to make a million bucks, but if people like what I write then maybe I should have more time to write for them Being a full-time language-hacker is a goal of mine, and nobody will be surprised to see that I will act to make that happen. If you think it's immoral for someone to earn money for putting a lot of their time into a project then I'd be happy to move to your idealist world where money doesn't exist, and maybe you'll quit your job and teach English / whatever for free.

The purpose of this mission was not to build up to a sales. I've had language missions for the last 7 years, and I'm being public about it this time. Anything I mention on the site will be a collaborative project that quite a few language bloggers will be contributing to. The cynicism in this forum is dreadful! I'm sorry you can't see my genuine love for learning languages and see me as nothing more than a car salesman. Shame on you!

I'm still debating with myself whether I should link to thaivisa in my summary post on resources for learning Thai. Someone trying a similar approach to me but with less experience would get shot down quickly by some people here. There's being helpful, there's giving constructive criticism, and then there's being needlessly nasty like softwater has just been just to prove the other guy wrong.

Edited March 2, 2010 by irishpolyglot

[hiero]

irishpolyglot - I couldn't make out a lot but sounded good far better than me after a few months, sure it wouldn't take you long to be really good. You'll probbaly find a lot of people that speak thai protect it and think of themselves as something special and aloof from other non speakers which they just typecast as sex tourists.

One thing though... do not wai service staff like at the bts, even ironically it's not good

and I think she ripped you off on the watermelon it's usually 10 baht

Cheers

Edited March 3, 2010 by hiero

[Joosesis]

I've been a long time reader of these forums, but it is this post that has finally pushed me to add my two satang.

I think that what Benny did was admirable. He came here and focused some of his attention on learning and was able to speak in some short conversations. This is much more than a lot of expat do and is to be applauded.

I think it is your words, though, Benny of "learning Thai" or being "fluent" that then warrant all of this feedback. If you had merely said that you were trying and wanted to see what you could do...we'd (I'd) be very pleased and impressed that you were able to learn some phrases. However, you didn't take that approach. Your approach was a boastful claim that you'll be fluent. It has been kindly pointed out that your Thai was quite basic and not what anyone would call fluent. That's okay. My Thai certainly isn't fluent.... however as one who takes study of the Thai langauge seriously, I find your boasting a joke, and frankly, an insult.

I'm also curious about your longitudinal studies on retention?

เวลาฉันเป็นนักเรียน ฉันได้เรียนหลายภาษาแล้ว แต่ต้องถามเองว่า ทำไม ฉันพูด ห้องน้ำอยู่ที่ไหน ได้ในหลายภาษา แต่ต้องถามเองว่า่ ทำไม

เวลาฉันตั้งใจเรีำยนแต่ภาษาไทย ฉันเรียนลึกๆ และเข้าใจสังคมไทยมากขื้น

(ขอช่วยแก้ไขหน่อยนะ....ยังเป็นนักเรียนและผิดเป็นครูนะ)

[dvc]

@dvc Very convenient saying after the video (and after I said on the forum several times that I was going to film in Bangkok) that I could only really prove myself if I had done it elsewhere... So you think I only got one word right in the whole video?

You may be right in what you said, however most people I've talked to here say that in full sentences the context is much more clear and saying precisely the right tone (or enunciation?) isn't as crucial as when saying the word in isolation. Even Thais don't speak right some of the time...

On top of that my goal was never perfection. It was always reaching some level of practical Thai in a short time. This obsession with perfection is the only thing really holding other farangs in Bangkok back from doing exactly what I did in the video. It's not that impressive, but people living here for TWO or more years still can't do it!!! I'm hoping to convince some of them to try.

I had successful basic two-way conversations in Thai, so not having precisely the right enunciation, getting some tones wrong etc. isn't the point. The point is always communication. If I can communicate with them because of what I've learned or because Bangkok Thais are more flexible in understanding bad Thai, then I don't really care because the point was to speak it in Bangkok. Communication in Thai is happening, and that's all that matters

You seem to underestimate the importance of correct tones. Thais, (especially Bangkok Thais), can understand much of what is said by a Thai language beginner, by using context and word order. This allows them to accurately guesstimate what is being said. However, the sound of Thai, spoken in this manner, is not pleasant to the ear. IE: it doesn’t sound “nice”. Correct rendition of the tones is one of the most important aspects of a good accent. I listened to and watched your video in the company of a native Thai speaker. He was able to understand you quite well, but his comments were the same as mine…the accent is not very good.

I think you’ve done quite well for the limited amount of time expended, but please understand…you have a long way to go before you can conduct even a simple conversation in Thai.

Correct tones are not a nice accessory, tacked on to ones speech for the sake of completeness; they are an integral part of pronunciation and accent.

[irishpolyglot]

irishpolyglot - I couldn't make out a lot but sounded good far better than me after a few months, sure it wouldn't take you long to be really good. You'll probbaly find a lot of people that speak thai protect it and think of themselves as something special and aloof from other non speakers which they just typecast as sex tourists.

One thing though... do not wai service staff like at the bts, even ironically it's not good

and I think she ripped you off on the watermelon it's usually 10 baht

Cheers

Thanks for that hiero - I really liked wai-ing, so I could be criticised for overdoing it. Thanks for the tip

Damnit, I'll never get that 5 Baht back again!!

@dvc Thanks for your thoughts! I don't claim to have a perfect accent; I just wanted a "perfect" starting point There is of course a long road ahead to speaking Thai well, and I definitely have plenty of work with tones ahead of me and agree that my accent is not good (I wasn't expecting it to be the first day I ever tried!)

Hopefully people see what I'm trying to say here that perfection is a good long term goal, but it's good to be content with speaking "OK" as long as people understand you, in the early stages.

In future attempts I will of course work hard to have good pronunciation and accents.

Glad your native friend could understand me; that was my purpose for STARTING to speak a language after all

Edited March 3, 2010 by irishpolyglot

[irishpolyglot]

@Joosesis

Thanks for your thoughts. Once again I have no idea where people are finding my claims to fluency in Thai. I'm sorry that my blog name has mislead people to what I was aiming for here! But I thought I was quite clear about the fact that my level of Thai IS DEFINITELY QUITE LOW. Sorry if something I said implied that I thought I'd be leaving here more Thai than the Thais themselves or something...

I think I deserve criticism more because I'm an argumentative Irishman, rather than for my learning method or claims

Retention is definitely an important issue. I will lose any Thai I've learned here quickly (as I have with my Czech for example) because I will not be actively working to maintain and improve it. I already do that for my 6 non-English languages and it's a lot of work, so I only add a new language to the mix when I will be devoted to it for life (which I haven't decided for Thai up to now). I discuss how I retain languages while living away from the country in which it is spoken (without paying anything) in this post. Here in Bangkok for example, I have been maintaining my French, Italian and Portuguese with natives.

However, most of what I say is geared towards people aiming to live in the country for a long period of time, so retention is not much of an issue for them if they are continually exposed to the language.

Sorry you feel that I'm arrogant. There's a fine line between arrogant and confident. The whole point is that I'm saying that anyone can do what I'm doing and trying to encourage them to try

[SoftWater]

Wow, Benny. Talk about going on a rant and indulging in nasty personal attack...

I offered a 'critique' based on what you have said here and on your blog. I supported every point with evidence or explanation. I don't think you made a single substantial criticism that's not already dealt with in my original posting.

As for your unwarranted assertion that nothing I do helps people learn Thai, try searching the forum under my user name and reading some of the many posts I've made over the last two years in which I do just that. If it was all in the interests of self-promotion, surely I would have set up my own blogsite with a 'donate' button by now, wouldn't I?

Edited March 3, 2010 by SoftWater

[HappyInCM]

I'll never prove myself to you, and that's what I "don't care about", not the fact that I'm wrong about things in Thai.w:

"So we started some 2 months ago with a wild claim of 'fluent in 3 months'" - did you even read my blog or the introduction post to Thai, other than specifically to find points to quote and tear down? Clearly not. I never ever implied that I was aiming for that; I was very very clear about my goals.

my criticism is about the traditional academic approach. Good ESL teachers think outside the box (using games with children, putting away the books and making adult students interact with one another etc.) and I don't categorise them as linguists. They are smart learners/teachers. The tired old approach is not smart.

"life just gets in the way" IS an excuse. I was able to communicate in Thai when I saw past this. If someone continued to use this excuse they'll never achieve anything outside of their routine of doing nothing but learn and never using.

"teachers like me make such a big deal and say its all about repetition and remaining motivated" - I have found nothing you have said to be remotely motivating, other than the introduction statement to soften your upcoming criticism. However you are definitely king of repetition.

"People who sell the 'language learning is easy' line are not only talking bullshit, they are being profoundly unethical, causing far more harm to far more people in the long run than they are doing good in the short run with the ejaculatory and ephemeral 'confidence boost' they give with their vague motivational clichés." We'll never agree on this - people should speak soon, and confidence is CRUCIAL in speaking a language. You clearly don't wish to give people confidence boosts, so I would likely rate you as a poor teacher even if you know all of your rules inside out.

I'm very confused by the assertion that working hard on learning a language (including using repetition - which is EASY these days using spaced repetition systems) is incompatible with going out and talking to people and not being afraid to make mistakes. There's definitely room for hybrid studying and full immersion learners.

Where did SW say not to go out and talk to people until you speak perfectly? There are people on this forum who basically say that, but I haven't seen SW say this on this thread.

It's great that you came in and said, hey, just get out there and use whatever Thai you have! I can't say enough about that, BUT, unfortunately, you didn't have enough time to really do that yourself - just short term memorizing and repeating what your fluent friend told you to say at a fruit stand and a restaurant (and cheers to you for being honest about it). You just don't have any credibility in Thai to anyone serious about learning the language. You cannot and should not rebut anything they say about the difficulties based on your almost 0 experience. I happen to agree that where there's a will there's a way, but I do not rebut things that I haven't achieved yet myself.

AND you never really gave any reasons why you didn't achieve anything close to your goals, which i believe were reading aloud well and lower intermediate conversation. That would be very helpful. I do understand that you've been successful in the past in other languages, so this must be a pain, but let's just hear what the difficulty was, other than time?

ps both your and softwater's approach help in different ways. Yours to remind us to go out there and not worry about making mistakes as one time using a sentence in a real life situation is probably equivalent to repeating it for 2 hours and SW for telling us about different sources and ways of doing the actual work of learning.

Edited March 3, 2010 by eljefe2

[SoftWater]

The only school that I know of that claims you should delay speaking is the Thai program at AUA (also called the ALG method), a method that I and other TV regular posters (tod and Kris spring to mind, but forgive me if I've forgotten others) have long criticised for exactly the reasons Benny states. I'm not sure why Benny is lumping me in with that crowd, other than that someone ELSE did link to a Marvin Brown article (Brown is the founder of the ALG method) in this thread.

Speaking and confidence-building are essential tools in the learning of a language - pace AUA, every teacher I've ever met knows this (including me, Benny!) and works it into the core of everything they do. I've never met anyone before Benny that claims it as their own and goes on to market it as part of an 'unconventional method'...

As Benny will know as a former ESL teacher, one of the many basic classroom approaches is a method called PPP (present, practice, produce). The idea of PPP is the teacher first demonstrates a linguistic point then gets students to practice it in a controlled way, then gets them to try to produce it spontaneously by varying the context.

An example might be this:

Show a video of Benny buying some fruit in the marketplace (present)

Have students role play the same expressions in the classroom, but substituting the names of different fruits and different prices, throw in some plastic fruits for them to handle and/or have them arrange the desks to look like little stalls, depending on their age and attitude (practice)

Have students make their own short video of buying fruit in the market place (produce).

Now that students have mobiles with video, I've used this 'go out and speak' technique a lot. Its great for teenage students to go out in small groups and interact with foreigners, and we always get positive feedback from them when they do this. We've had them interviewing tourists on all sorts of interesting topics from perceptions of Thailand to psychological issues around happiness to family values, depending on the interests of the students and what major their doing.

Incidentally, PPP is only one teaching methodology that trained teachers use , and it does have weaknesses, but overall its a good classroom staple so long as its supplemented with other stuff.

Edited March 3, 2010 by SoftWater

[kpmsprtd]

I am that someone else who posted the link to J. Marvin Brown's From the Outside In manifesto.

What are the main criticisms of ALG (Automatic Language Growth) by those who have attended AUA Thai classes for a significant length of time?

[SoftWater]

I don't want to revisit that whole discussion here for two reasons:

i. an in-depth discussion of ALG would be off-topic in this thread

ii. we've done it already - I'd suggest using the search forum function and replying in the appropriate threads.

Best

Sw

Edited March 3, 2010 by SoftWater

[irishpolyglot]

"AND you never really gave any reasons why you didn't achieve anything close to your goals, which i believe were reading aloud well and lower intermediate conversation. That would be very helpful. I do understand that you've been successful in the past in other languages, so this must be a pain, but let's just hear what the difficulty was, other than time?"

Good point eljefe - Yes, there is more too it than just lack of time of course. I am packing right now and leaving Thailand this evening, so I'll write a summary of the travel and language-learning aspect of my Thai visit some time over the next few days. I hope that will help people see the mistakes I've made. I don't claim to have a perfect approach, and am always expanding on new ways to go about being able to speak a language. Being a teacher for several years and a recipient of failed academic language instruction, I consider certain methods as simply taking steps backwards. However there is some merit in the academic approach so you are right that a healthy combination of study and application is a great approach.

I've learned quite a lot in this short time period that will help me in later projects. Hopefully someone else may take something from my mistakes too; however, comments from others on this thread criticising my approach have almost never touched on the actual issues that prevented me from achieving so much more that I or anyone else really could do, even in just a few weeks.

My 2 month "break" is over and in later missions I will be very much extremely devoted to reaching my target, so the results will speak for themselves and I won't have to argue in circles with people, with no proof of the current language to convince them better. Sorry that my low level of Thai is far from impressive, but it's pretty much what I was aiming for from the start (other than not achieving the reading aloud to a native part as previously mentioned).

Early posts in this thread have been extremely helpful, so thanks to those of you willing to indulge in my experiment Even if I didn't show you anything you didn't know already, I hope you at least enjoyed seeing my attempts

[Parvis]

You were aiming to impress - now you say "This is pretty much what I was aiming for from the start". Like the other "impressive poster" on this Forum - you make excuses.

As you said in one of your posts "Aimed for the stars but land on the moon" - I would suggest landing in the deep ocean is more accurate.

But I do not want to stifle your youthful exuberance - sometimes one's successes are not recognized by others right from the start - they are only recognized within yourself.

I have always claimed that I have learned more from those who criticized me than those who praised me. I hope you will keep this in mind. Beware of the "white-washers" - they are your real enemies in progress - since they have nothing to say.

Good Luck.

[RickBradford]

Benny,

Congratulations on maintaining a positive attitude despite the Schadenfreude being shown by some posters at your falling short of your stated goals.

One question which I hope you will cover in your blog, and which I think would be of value to your regular readers is: Did you find the learning curve for spoken Thai (particularly tones and unusual vowels) steeper than would be the case for, say, Brazilian Portuguese? For example, after a similar study time in Rio, would you have needed to spend so much practice time setting up and creating the short video?

I'll throw down one challenge to you; that you shouldn't describe yourself as a 'polyglot' if you're going to stick to languages in the Indo-European family, which all have an underlying similarity. Get out there and learn Finnish, or Georgian -- or, come back to Thailand and enjoy the unique and refreshing welcome of the ThaiVisa forum....

Thank you for enlivening the discussions here over the past couple of months and best of luck in your next venture.

[Tod Daniels]

Unfortunately the O/P’s statements seem to run along the lines of the various and sundry Ministries in the thai government. They make projections at years start about their increase in their particular area, and then over the course of the year, reduce their projections until magically they HIT their mark!! WOW! Go figure

I certainly wouldn't put him in polyglot status from his efforts in thai language acquisition.

The three thais I had listen to the video which I ripped off you tube said it was barely intelligible, and if they didn't know what the subject was he was talking about they'd be almost totally lost. I'm not judging, only stating what I was told by native speakers, (who last time I checked speak thai natively ).

I still commend him on his stick-to-it-ive-ness to even attempt something like this; even if his projections did erode from the initial statement to a much more watered down version.

Good on you. .. Thanx for the interesting read. ..

[Parvis]

Rick

Verwenden Sie nur Woerter dessen Bedeutung Sie verstehen and sind von anderen eindeutig zu verstehen.

Hemmingway (German Translation)

Edited March 3, 2010 by Parvis

[Roota]

What are the main criticisms of ALG (Automatic Language Growth) by those who have attended AUA Thai classes for a significant length of time?

A big subject which deserves a thread of its own.

But briefly, as one of the guinea pigs when Dr. Brown was first putting together his "Natural Approach" classes, I felt most limited by the fairly total silence expected of students. Playing with the sounds of a language, from the earliest stages, has always for me added a kind of tactile quality to language learning that listening alone doesn't provide. Call it a kind of linguistic equivalent of muscle memory. I understand why AUA kept the students quiet -- largely so that they wouldn't have to listen to each other -- but I think a one-on-one approach including freedom for the student to vocalize more would probably have been more effective.

As an experienced language learner (and with a linguistics degree to boot) I occasionally wanted more structural explanations whenever I couldn't quite figure out some new bit of grammar or idiom. I'm sure this is just a personal character flaw.

A couple of us covertly hired private tutors to fill in what we felt we weren't getting from the NA classes. Don't tell Dr. Brown but I think mine helped me quite a lot. Of course this was a long time ago, and presumably AUA have come a long ways since then with their techniques.

[gemini81]

In the school I attended a few years ago I met an Asian-American who was learning Thai (I am not sure but I don't think he could speak any other Asian languages). He was a university professor and within about 8 weeks he was speaking pretty good Thai, much to the chagrin of other students who were cr*p in comparison. I believe he used some type of mind-mapping technique to learn the vocabulary.

It can be done, but in my opinion only by the gifted few.

living with a Thai family is probably the quickest way! in my experience anyway. one that blew me away was a friend in the peace corps who came and lived in phangnga with a host family..and after merely 2 months he was speaking at an incredible level..pre intermediate give or take. (not many foreigners out there in phangnga) real life situations are the best teacher.

the grammar supports the poly syllabic langauge, but really speaking and listening make the reading easier to grasp and to imagine. can't imagine some academic approach would be better than real life situations in which you must absorb, and learn, and practice.

[bangkokrick]

OK everyone. Here it is!

http://www.fluentin3months.com/say-something/

Go easy on me

I have been reading this thread for quite a while now, but not made any comments because I wanted to see/hear the final outcome. I have to say it's very disappointing, as you professed to learn Thai in 8 weeks, which conflicts with your Blog of fluency in 3 months and then the video gives us less than 50 words, many of which are repeated. You can get most of the vocabulary that is used in a simple phrase book or an in flight magazine.

I honestly don't know where you are coming from here to post this on a board where there any many people that can not only speak Thai fluently but can also read and write Thai. I think that your original claims were not only demeaning to the Thai language, but also to the serious Thai students on this forum, some who have spent many years to achieve their goals.

This makes me wonder about your capability in the other languages that you claim to be fluent in. By the way I can get by in basic Thai but I don't read or write, so this is not a comparison thing.

I have great admiration for those who have studied hard and who assist others on this forum and I think that they have made many valid points regarding your venture.

With that said good luck with your next mission.

Cheers, Rick

[SoftWater]

can't imagine some academic approach would be better than real life situations in which you must absorb, and learn, and practice.

I thought I was done with this thread, but I do want to correct what appears to be a misunderstanding encapsulated in the above quote.

There is no dichotomy between 'an academic approach' (whatever that means, I don't recognise the vague descriptions Benny gives for the approach he thinks is wrong) and being immersed in the target language environment.

Every language theorist agrees that immersion is the ideal way to learn a language. Now, suppose you have 7000 students in one university (like mine) who are all required by LAW to learn English, how do you suggest we go about providing that language teaching? Yes, it would be great if we could send them all off to England and say come back in two years when you're fluent (not, by the way, 3 months...), but that is not the reality.

What we do, which is worth elaborating since some seem so keen to attack it without having the faintest idea of what we do, is try to create as authentic a language learning environment as possible. We use all sorts of interactive games, activities and projects to do this. Since the students need not only spoken English but also need to be able to read well for their academic studies (many of which use or refer to English language textbooks, like MEDICINE, for example), and they need to be able to write well in order to apply for jobs in international companies and so on, we also have to teach reading and writing skills not just conversation.

So the next time someone comes along and says 'anyone can learn so-and-so language in 8 weeks' or 'be fluent in 3 months', it might just be worth reflecting on what that actually means in terms of real-world competencies. If you think someone could learn your native language in 3 months - not just how you chat in the market but how to negotiate meaning in all the multifaceted ways that we do in modern life - I suggest you need a serious reality check.

My problem with Benny's "mission" was never how good or otherwise he might get at Thai in 8 weeks; it was with the ethics of promoting false hopes and ultimately broken promises to the many people in this world that really do need to seriously learn a foreign language (usually English) and making them believe that they can all do it in twelve weeks.

Edited March 3, 2010 by SoftWater

[123ace]

Speaking it is over-rated these days. Was far more applicable 20 years ago when hardly any local spoke english (at least far fewer - and very few uni grads from the lesser uni's).

Disagree? many will not to be fair. Well, these days would you marry one that could not speak english, or has not had sufficient education or employmnet to speak english? if yes, don't marry her and save yourself the longer term grief.

I speak and read it. Useful, but sometimes not knowing is better.

[Parvis]

I know 'nough - but not 'nough to hurt me none

[tombkk]

OK thanks for the comments everyone!

[...]

@tombkk I won't be making that video. I leave tomorrow so I'll just say on the summary that proving that I could read any text aloud to Thais was the only part of the mission I definitely didn't complete. As far as I'm concerned, I was successful or mostly successful in the rest of what I had initially aimed for, and anyone else could do much better than me in less time if they were more committed.

Disappointing, but oh well. The Thai you speak in the video is still better than that of some expats who have lived here for a year or two.

Have a good trip and a hapy landing. As opposed to some nay-sayers, I do appreciate your efforts to learn the language that is close to our hearts.

You may be right in what you said, however most people I've talked to here say that in full sentences the context is much more clear and saying precisely the right tone (or enunciation?) isn't as crucial as when saying the word in isolation. Even Thais don't speak right some of the time...

Thais always use the right tones, they are the native speakers. However, the right tone varies with the region and other factors. To tell the truth, it is rather complicated. You couldn't get into that in only 8 weeks, but you did scratch the surface. The right tone for you would have been the one used in the Central language. As someone else has pointed out, the tone is indeed crucial when you speak to Thais who are not used to farangs using the wrong tone. I indeed had to "translate" from a foreigner's Thai (with wrong tones) to real Thai (with correct tones) at several times. There is no way you could have anticipated this at the beginning of an 8-week mission.

I had successful basic two-way conversations in Thai, so not having precisely the right enunciation, getting some tones wrong etc. isn't the point. The point is always communication. If I can communicate with them because of what I've learned or because Bangkok Thais are more flexible in understanding bad Thai, then I don't really care because the point was to speak it in Bangkok. Communication in Thai is happening, and that's all that matters

Congratulations to that.

[tombkk]

My approach to learning languages [snip]

For myself, I've found the biggest hurdles in Thai are the new sounds (something I had not truly encountered staying within romance languages), the tones (of course) and the seeming lack of grammar/weird ways of presenting thoughts - I cannot be more specific with the latter, but have seen some posts on here from some of the gurus echoing the sentiment that you may need to let go of some ways of presenting things in English - which I think are similar in European languages.

[snip]

I only had a problem with one vowel, and I don't have the software to write it: It's the "ue" in "Don Mueang".

Other than that, the tones were the biggest obstacle, and then the vocabulary as there are no similar-sounding words in European languages.

There is no lack of grammar, to the contrary: There is a distinct grammar, and it is very different from European grammar. If you don't follow it, they will simply not understand you. What makes you say there is no grammar in Thai?

my comment about "seeming lack of grammar" was in regard to the OP saying:

"European languages, can be adapted and if I can find a fast and efficient way of learning Thai writing and tones, which as far as I can tell are the major difference (everything else, including learning vocabulary [and even correct use of stress as mentioned above], being the same or actually easier than in European languages, especially grammar)."

Learning Thai grammar to me would seem much much harder than learning French grammar for an English speaker. I think this was another underestimation of the difficulty in learning Thai.

IMHO: English is easier than French. Thai is easier than English. Manadarin Chinese is eaiser than Thai. Talking about grammar, not pronunciation or vacabulary.

Kindly do explain why you think that French grammar is easier to learn (for an English speaker) than Thai. I've thought about it and cannot understand your opinion.

[kriswillems]

I have been following this thread from the beginning but haven't replied yet because I did want to be either too critical nor too positive.

Being too critical could be seen as looking down at your abilities and being too positive could be seen as looking down at the abilities of others.

It's rather hard to tell at what level you are.

We have seen you in a video explaining the tones (which was a nice try, but I wouldn't advice any Thai language student to study the tones with this video).

In a second video we saw you saying a few numbers and a few sentences that seem come out of a guidebook. There was no real interaction, no real conversation. We also didn't see you reading Thai.

Before I travel to another country I usually learn to pronounce the numbers in the local language (on the airplane). I learn how to say "how much?", "agreed", "can you give a reduction?", "hello", "welcome", "goodbye" and some other very basic sentences. I use a guidebook and if possible some mp3 files. I can't tell from the video if this is also what you did.

If you really spent only 5 to 10 hours studying Thai I have to say you did "ok" until "good".

But for a polyglot that stayed 2 months in Thailand with website called "fluent in 3 months" and with very high ambitions, the results you've shown us are rather limited or maybe even disappointing.

I could understand about 70% of your video, not too bad. But it was very, very "simple" Thai (all out of lesson 1 or 2 of any Thai language book or out of a guidebook).

It might be possible that your Thai language skills are better than what we've seen in the video... again it's hard to say.

Anyway, goodluck with your Thai language study. I hope you'll go on with it. It's a beautiful language.

[bhoydy]

[quote name='123ace' date='2010-03-03 21:40:48' post='3384518'

Disagree? many will not to be fair. Well, these days would you marry one that could not speak english, or has not had sufficient education or employmnet to speak english? if yes, don't marry her and save yourself the longer term grief.

What a ridiculous comment. Sounds like a case of sour grapes.

[HappyInCM]

IMHO: English is easier than French. Thai is easier than English. Manadarin Chinese is eaiser than Thai. Talking about grammar, not pronunciation or vacabulary.

Kindly do explain why you think that French grammar is easier to learn (for an English speaker) than Thai. I've thought about it and cannot understand your opinion.

Maybe for others (or the more advanced), it's easier, but for me, I miss the rigidity and specificity of English.