Rubber Estate

[jimmyysk]

I had post this in another part of the forum. I planning to buy a rubber estate in my wife hometown either I will tapping it with hire 1-2 people or fully tapping by hire people. My concern is I don't know how to do the calculation for profit and loss. Here are some of my question hope got expert to find me the answer.

1. How many rai equal to a hectare?

2. 1 hectare can plant how many tress?

3. 1 tree can produce how much nature rubber @ 1 hectare?

4. 1 day can tap for how many trees per person?

5. What is the expenses should I need to take care?

I need to count whether is it worth to run it my own or hire employee to run it. What is the income for every month after deducted all the expenses? I'm from Malaysia so price for the rubber may be slightly different from Thailand. Around RM10/Kg. My parent in-law currently is doing tapping for their own rubber estate and would ask them to help me to do the managing.

[Nio]

It is quite apparent from the questions you are asking that you do not have a clue about rubber trees

If that is the case, better let someone with some experience in rubber trees run it for you

If your inlaws are already in the business, why not ask them all these questions since they are already doing it?

[chang35baht]

Your parent in law is already running their own rubber farm!!!!!!

You already have the perfect people to answer yor questions.

[jimmyysk]

I guest my question is more on business term and calculation. For them as a small shareholder rubber tapper may not think so details or even think this before as they just tap the rubber to enough survive for daily live. For my future planning as to become rich for doing rubber estate business all the question that I ask I my concern to get it to success. Hope you guys understand what I mean.

[jamescollister]

Hello Jimmy

1/ about 6.5 rai per hectre

2/ 80 to 90 trees per Rai

3/ Production per tree/rai/ acre, that is a big question. what type of tree, is the area too dry or too wet. Have the trees been properly taken care of, are the tappers confident and another 1/ 200 variables.

4/ Some tappers can tap 600 or more trees per day, but again it may be done badly or the time taken will mean the trees are tapped later in the day and thus lose the cooler time to give up there latex. Best practice 400 trees per tapper. That way he will not drop for lack of sleep and will have time to tap each tree without doning damage.

5/ The cost of setting up a plantation is alot more then you think. as a rule of thumb be prepare to spend $2000 US per Rai and you will be safe.

Hope that is of some help Jim

[jimmyysk]

Hello Jimmy

1/ about 6.5 rai per hectre

2/ 80 to 90 trees per Rai

3/ Production per tree/rai/ acre, that is a big question. what type of tree, is the area too dry or too wet. Have the trees been properly taken care of, are the tappers confident and another 1/ 200 variables.

4/ Some tappers can tap 600 or more trees per day, but again it may be done badly or the time taken will mean the trees are tapped later in the day and thus lose the cooler time to give up there latex. Best practice 400 trees per tapper. That way he will not drop for lack of sleep and will have time to tap each tree without doning damage.

5/ The cost of setting up a plantation is alot more then you think. as a rule of thumb be prepare to spend $2000 US per Rai and you will be safe.

Hope that is of some help Jim

Very appreciate for your comment. Help me a lot from your info given. Still I have some doubt here may be you can help. From the info you given I assume that I have 2 hectre rubber land.

1. 2 hectre may have around 1040 trees ( base on ur info 2*6.5*80) may need 3 tapper workers. Am I write?

2. For the trees if existing already tapping and the land that I just buy over roughly production per tree/rai/hectre/month? Rough figure will do. I need to know roughly income that I can get.

3. By week how many days can do the tapping work if let say start on monday? What about the following days?

4. Do you have your own rubber plantation in thailand? Is it worth to inverst in thailand for rubber plantation? Can foreigner like me can invest there? What is the procedure?

Appreciate if any one out there can help to answer my question. Thank you

[jamescollister]

Hello Jimmy

1/ about 6.5 rai per hectre

2/ 80 to 90 trees per Rai

3/ Production per tree/rai/ acre, that is a big question. what type of tree, is the area too dry or too wet. Have the trees been properly taken care of, are the tappers confident and another 1/ 200 variables.

4/ Some tappers can tap 600 or more trees per day, but again it may be done badly or the time taken will mean the trees are tapped later in the day and thus lose the cooler time to give up there latex. Best practice 400 trees per tapper. That way he will not drop for lack of sleep and will have time to tap each tree without doning damage.

5/ The cost of setting up a plantation is alot more then you think. as a rule of thumb be prepare to spend $2000 US per Rai and you will be safe.

Hope that is of some help Jim

Very appreciate for your comment. Help me a lot from your info given. Still I have some doubt here may be you can help. From the info you given I assume that I have 2 hectre rubber land.

1. 2 hectre may have around 1040 trees ( base on ur info 2*6.5*80) may need 3 tapper workers. Am I write?

2. For the trees if existing already tapping and the land that I just buy over roughly production per tree/rai/hectre/month? Rough figure will do. I need to know roughly income that I can get.

3. By week how many days can do the tapping work if let say start on monday? What about the following days?

4. Do you have your own rubber plantation in thailand? Is it worth to inverst in thailand for rubber plantation? Can foreigner like me can invest there? What is the procedure?

Appreciate if any one out there can help to answer my question. Thank you

Hi again

1/ yes that is about right, but there are some variables to take in to consideration. Are you hiring on a percentage basis, if so then you are getting a family where the wife and older kids help out. Are you going to do cup,latex or pancakes. All require more or less labour .

2/ No one sells mature rubbertrees that are in good condition unless you are paying through the nose for them. As for production of rubber this again depends on type of tree, condition etc. Saying that all being good you should get 1/2 kilos of solid rubber per month when tapping.

3/Your tapping cycle is again variable. Time of year [wet/dry season] condition of trees etc. As a norn either tap 1 rest 1,2 or 3 days.If you arec tapping a large plantation it makes sense to tap on a cycle that allows tapping every day, as you will lose days due to rain.

4/ Yes I do have rubber. If you type james collister into youtube you can see some videos I have posted.

A word of warning, doning rubber is a minefield, as of yet I have not heard of any farang that has make a living from it. I am hoping we will be the first, but it has taken 7 years and we have still not passed the break even piont. Jim

[jimmyysk]

Hello Jimmy

1/ about 6.5 rai per hectre

2/ 80 to 90 trees per Rai

3/ Production per tree/rai/ acre, that is a big question. what type of tree, is the area too dry or too wet. Have the trees been properly taken care of, are the tappers confident and another 1/ 200 variables.

4/ Some tappers can tap 600 or more trees per day, but again it may be done badly or the time taken will mean the trees are tapped later in the day and thus lose the cooler time to give up there latex. Best practice 400 trees per tapper. That way he will not drop for lack of sleep and will have time to tap each tree without doning damage.

5/ The cost of setting up a plantation is alot more then you think. as a rule of thumb be prepare to spend $2000 US per Rai and you will be safe.

Hope that is of some help Jim

Very appreciate for your comment. Help me a lot from your info given. Still I have some doubt here may be you can help. From the info you given I assume that I have 2 hectre rubber land.

1. 2 hectre may have around 1040 trees ( base on ur info 2*6.5*80) may need 3 tapper workers. Am I write?

2. For the trees if existing already tapping and the land that I just buy over roughly production per tree/rai/hectre/month? Rough figure will do. I need to know roughly income that I can get.

3. By week how many days can do the tapping work if let say start on monday? What about the following days?

4. Do you have your own rubber plantation in thailand? Is it worth to inverst in thailand for rubber plantation? Can foreigner like me can invest there? What is the procedure?

Appreciate if any one out there can help to answer my question. Thank you

Hi again

1/ yes that is about right, but there are some variables to take in to consideration. Are you hiring on a percentage basis, if so then you are getting a family where the wife and older kids help out. Are you going to do cup,latex or pancakes. All require more or less labour .

2/ No one sells mature rubbertrees that are in good condition unless you are paying through the nose for them. As for production of rubber this again depends on type of tree, condition etc. Saying that all being good you should get 1/2 kilos of solid rubber per month when tapping.

3/Your tapping cycle is again variable. Time of year [wet/dry season] condition of trees etc. As a norn either tap 1 rest 1,2 or 3 days.If you arec tapping a large plantation it makes sense to tap on a cycle that allows tapping every day, as you will lose days due to rain.

4/ Yes I do have rubber. If you type james collister into youtube you can see some videos I have posted.

A word of warning, doning rubber is a minefield, as of yet I have not heard of any farang that has make a living from it. I am hoping we will be the first, but it has taken 7 years and we have still not passed the break even piont. Jim

Thanks again Bro. I had asked my mother in-law when she was here yesterday. She said that they sell the liqiud form of rubber to middle man. Liquid form is latex? They sell around RM8/KG. My father in-law brother got rubber estate for sale. In chinese mandarin it call (JI) i don't know whether is acre or hectre. Around 5 acre@hectre for RM100K/acre@hectre. Is it worth that the estate is tapping currently? I'm thinking to hire for few tappers and let my parent in-law to look after it so I don't need to work fulltime at first since I working in IT currently. My just concern that I don't know how many people should I require as my mother in-law told me that 1 (JI) land got around 80-100 trees so if 5 (JI) only got 400-500 trees. So do you think it is big enough for inverstment purpose?

From my calculation if i borrow money from bank to purchase the estate aorund RM400k. If can produce for every month around RM5k-6k I think I can settle for the loan within 10 years and start earning money onwards. What do you think?

[jamescollister]

Hello Jimmy

1/ about 6.5 rai per hectre

2/ 80 to 90 trees per Rai

3/ Production per tree/rai/ acre, that is a big question. what type of tree, is the area too dry or too wet. Have the trees been properly taken care of, are the tappers confident and another 1/ 200 variables.

4/ Some tappers can tap 600 or more trees per day, but again it may be done badly or the time taken will mean the trees are tapped later in the day and thus lose the cooler time to give up there latex. Best practice 400 trees per tapper. That way he will not drop for lack of sleep and will have time to tap each tree without doning damage.

5/ The cost of setting up a plantation is alot more then you think. as a rule of thumb be prepare to spend $2000 US per Rai and you will be safe.

Hope that is of some help Jim

Very appreciate for your comment. Help me a lot from your info given. Still I have some doubt here may be you can help. From the info you given I assume that I have 2 hectre rubber land.

1. 2 hectre may have around 1040 trees ( base on ur info 2*6.5*80) may need 3 tapper workers. Am I write?

2. For the trees if existing already tapping and the land that I just buy over roughly production per tree/rai/hectre/month? Rough figure will do. I need to know roughly income that I can get.

3. By week how many days can do the tapping work if let say start on monday? What about the following days?

4. Do you have your own rubber plantation in thailand? Is it worth to inverst in thailand for rubber plantation? Can foreigner like me can invest there? What is the procedure?

Appreciate if any one out there can help to answer my question. Thank you

Hi again

1/ yes that is about right, but there are some variables to take in to consideration. Are you hiring on a percentage basis, if so then you are getting a family where the wife and older kids help out. Are you going to do cup,latex or pancakes. All require more or less labour .

2/ No one sells mature rubbertrees that are in good condition unless you are paying through the nose for them. As for production of rubber this again depends on type of tree, condition etc. Saying that all being good you should get 1/2 kilos of solid rubber per month when tapping.

3/Your tapping cycle is again variable. Time of year [wet/dry season] condition of trees etc. As a norn either tap 1 rest 1,2 or 3 days.If you arec tapping a large plantation it makes sense to tap on a cycle that allows tapping every day, as you will lose days due to rain.

4/ Yes I do have rubber. If you type james collister into youtube you can see some videos I have posted.

A word of warning, doning rubber is a minefield, as of yet I have not heard of any farang that has make a living from it. I am hoping we will be the first, but it has taken 7 years and we have still not passed the break even piont. Jim

Thanks again Bro. I had asked my mother in-law when she was here yesterday. She said that they sell the liqiud form of rubber to middle man. Liquid form is latex? They sell around RM8/KG. My father in-law brother got rubber estate for sale. In chinese mandarin it call (JI) i don't know whether is acre or hectre. Around 5 acre@hectre for RM100K/acre@hectre. Is it worth that the estate is tapping currently? I'm thinking to hire for few tappers and let my parent in-law to look after it so I don't need to work fulltime at first since I working in IT currently. My just concern that I don't know how many people should I require as my mother in-law told me that 1 (JI) land got around 80-100 trees so if 5 (JI) only got 400-500 trees. So do you think it is big enough for inverstment purpose?

From my calculation if i borrow money from bank to purchase the estate aorund RM400k. If can produce for every month around RM5k-6k I think I can settle for the loan within 10 years and start earning money onwards. What do you think?

jimmy

is it worth the investment, I wouldn't even hazard a quess, but if it can pay for itself in 10 years and you can effort to take the chance the worse that can happen is you sell the lumber and you still have the land. I am afraid I have very little knowledge of rubber in Malaysia and I am a long way from a expert in Thailand. Maybe have a chat to an accountant, he can work out whether it is a good deal or not. Jim

[jimmyysk]

Many thanks again. I hope that we can share our experience one day after I had start. May be we can partner or co-operate in investment in Thailand and Malaysia. I'm sure rubber will still be a demanding in future as crude oil still very high price.

[Abrak]

Last week I read a report by Deutsche Bank about a downstream rubber business (disposable rubber gloves - (total global demand is 140bn!))

Here are some of the raw rubber industry production stats....

3 major producers - Thailand, Indonesia and Malaysia - account for 75% of global production of 8.67m tons (est. 2009). The average yield per hectare tapped was 1,283kg/hectare/annum.

Thailand is the largest and most efficient producer - 2.92m tons, 1,590kg/hectare/annum.

Indonesia is the second largest - 2.65m tons, 980kg/hectare/annum.

Malaysia third but quite a bit smaller - 865k tons, 1,150kg/hectare/annum. Probably the most interesting fact about Malaysia is that tapped area is falling fast - 35% between 2007 and 2009 (this contrasts with Thailand where tapped area is continuing to increase.)

Edited January 17, 2010 by Abrak

[jimmyysk]

Last week I read a report by Deutsche Bank about a downstream rubber business (disposable rubber gloves - (total global demand is 140bn!))

Here are some of the raw rubber industry production stats....

3 major producers - Thailand, Indonesia and Malaysia - account for 75% of global production of 8.67m tons (est. 2009). The average yield per hectare tapped was 1,283kg/hectare/annum.

Thailand is the largest and most efficient producer - 2.92m tons, 1,590kg/hectare/annum.

Indonesia is the second largest - 2.65m tons, 980kg/hectare/annum.

Malaysia third but quite a bit smaller - 865k tons, 1,150kg/hectare/annum. Probably the most interesting fact about Malaysia is that tapped area is falling fast - 35% between 2007 and 2009 (this contrasts with Thailand where tapped area is continuing to increase.)

I'm quite confuse here that what you try to tell. I that you wanna say rubber estate not a good business in future. Base on the statistic you given malaysia 1,150kg/hectre/annum. That amount not really attractive cause if I count for per month 96Kg/hectre/month. If let say I got 5 hectre and the price is RM8/Kg then my income for a month would be RM3840. Is that so little?

From what I been told by my mum in-law a hectre got around 100 trees so 5 hectres I assume it got 500 trees. So base on 500 trees only can produce 480Kg of latex if that consider lot or less? If the RM3840 figure is correct I think this is not a very worthy business cause I still need to pay for emplyee who work for me.

[jamescollister]

Jimmy

Take no notice of average production figures, they do not represent true tree production. They are an avergae of production of all land used for rubber, this includes trees that have yet to be planted to trees that are at the end of there useful life. You can only work on the numbers from the land you are interested in. Jim

[chang35baht]

Totally agree James. Well said.

[Mosha]

Bear in mind the price follows what oil is doing. I live in the wettest part of Thailand, and most people here turn it into mats. The reason is if it is raining, they go quickly gather what is in the cups and process it. Dry cup rubber price depends on the moisture content. Mat rubber is about 85 Baht.kg. We have 1 Burmese tapping 700 trees, and he's confident he can do the other 800 when they are mature enough.

[jimmyysk]

Jimmy

Take no notice of average production figures, they do not represent true tree production. They are an avergae of production of all land used for rubber, this includes trees that have yet to be planted to trees that are at the end of there useful life. You can only work on the numbers from the land you are interested in. Jim

Morning. Just read from new paper about the rubber glove most probable will increase the price this year due to the rubber latex go up. This make me more confident that rubber got potential as business. The figure given by Abrak earlier may make me cautious a bit as production profit I not what I thought. Capital invest may not easily get return very fast. Need to get more advise from my parent in-law for detail planning.

[chang35baht]

Bear in mind the price follows what oil is doing. I live in the wettest part of Thailand, and most people here turn it into mats. The reason is if it is raining, they go quickly gather what is in the cups and process it. Dry cup rubber price depends on the moisture content. Mat rubber is about 85 Baht.kg. We have 1 Burmese tapping 700 trees, and he's confident he can do the other 800 when they are mature enough.

Mosha, are you saying that your burmese guy will do 1500 trees per day when they are all mature? I would have thought that at already doing 700, he is at full pelt.

Unless you are supplying him with early mornig yaba doses.

Do you know of this website? http://www.rubberthai.com/ If so can you tell me if these are local market prices or wholesale to larger processing factories?

Cheers.

C35B

[jamescollister]

Bear in mind the price follows what oil is doing. I live in the wettest part of Thailand, and most people here turn it into mats. The reason is if it is raining, they go quickly gather what is in the cups and process it. Dry cup rubber price depends on the moisture content. Mat rubber is about 85 Baht.kg. We have 1 Burmese tapping 700 trees, and he's confident he can do the other 800 when they are mature enough.

Mosha, are you saying that your burmese guy will do 1500 trees per day when they are all mature? I would have thought that at already doing 700, he is at full pelt.

Unless you are supplying him with early mornig yaba doses.

Do you know of this website? http://www.rubberthai.com/ If so can you tell me if these are local market prices or wholesale to larger processing factories?

Cheers.

C35B

Hi chang

Won't comment on super tappers, but can tell you about the rubber prices. The price listed at www. rubberthai.com is the daily auction price that buyers pay,mostly for export. The price you get is set mainly by the Government buyers. They come around my area every 2 weeks. The price they pay is usually 3 to 7 baht below the daily Auction price, but on occassions it can be higher,as the Government trys to keep prices high. There are also middle men who come to smaller villages and buy at the lowest price that the locals will sell. This is usually very close to the Government price. They make there money by transporting the rubber to a large processing plant. To give a example one of our local private buyers will buy about 1,000,000 baht worth of rubber then transport it down south to a factory. She says that she makes a profit of around 30,000 baht a trip. I on the other hand buy liquid latex from the locals at 15 baht more than they get for cup rubber, then process it into smoked sheet, making between 15 to 20 baht a kilo.Though some times the price rises and I make more or it drops and I lose. It is all very speculate if the prices are not stable, as occuerred with the commodies crash in 2008. I had a shed full of rubber that had lost 60 baht a kilo over night. Hope that clears the pricing up for you.

Ps anyone who has a big truck out there and wants to try transporting rubber pm me as I have to sell locally, but have been contacted by a big proceessing factory wanting to buy 10,000 every 2 weeks. Jim

[chang35baht]

Thanks a lot for the heads up James.

Cheers,

C35B.

[Mosha]

To say I am dubious to his claims is an understatement, I reckon we'll need another tapper. Will have to be Mhong as I am learning the Burman have a superiority complex over them. Must be a SE Asian thing, slap the little guy down. I have a friend who plays the markets and he says mat rubber is pointing to around 100 Baht per kilo on the futures markets.

[jimmyysk]

Since I got no knowledge in rubber estate or tapping. Lot of bad feedback I got from my mum in-law and my wife not so supprt me either. The investment capital may be very big amount and the reutrn may take quite long. Somemore my mum in-law said whether I can stay on the smell, mosquitoes and got people stealling the latex and can't see who cause so dark early morning.

[Mosha]

Theft is a big problem around here. Those who can afford to do it have a building just to house the rubber. We use bricks with plenty of air holes in. I agree the smell is dreadful from dried cup rubber, the fact it attracts lots of flies should tell you something My sister in law buys it and she's 200 metres upwind from us. Mosquitoes, making sure there is no standing water near by that doesn't hold fish will help a bit.

[C3C4]

When talking of rubber prices, I looked at The homepage of The Thai Rubber Association, they publish prices every day, and it seemes they went up from around 50 THB/kg to almost hundred during the last year.

Does anyone know how much a 7 year old ready to harvest tree(50 cm diameter 1 meter above ground) can yield per night/tapping in liters, as liquid latex? Of course depending on a lot - but just an average figure..

I have heard that 1 liter of liquid latex gives 200 mg pressed 3 times and dried as sheets?

[jamescollister]

When talking of rubber prices, I looked at The homepage of The Thai Rubber Association, they publish prices every day, and it seemes they went up from around 50 THB/kg to almost hundred during the last year.

Does anyone know how much a 7 year old ready to harvest tree(50 cm diameter 1 meter above ground) can yield per night/tapping in liters, as liquid latex? Of course depending on a lot - but just an average figure..

I have heard that 1 liter of liquid latex gives 200 mg pressed 3 times and dried as sheets?

Hi C3C4

You can not judge out put by how much liquid latex you get in a night, you have to take it over a month or so to see how much solid rubber you get. Good trees should produce 1/2 a kilo plus of solid rubber per month. Jim

[Belligerent]

I guest my question is more on business term and calculation. For them as a small shareholder rubber tapper may not think so details or even think this before as they just tap the rubber to enough survive for daily live. For my future planning as to become rich for doing rubber estate business all the question that I ask I my concern to get it to success. Hope you guys understand what I mean.

Jimmy,

Do you mind me asking where you are from? Appreciate it if you don't reply "from my Mama"

It is a legitimate request. I want to know if you have rubber trees in your part of the world.

[jimmyysk]

I guest my question is more on business term and calculation. For them as a small shareholder rubber tapper may not think so details or even think this before as they just tap the rubber to enough survive for daily live. For my future planning as to become rich for doing rubber estate business all the question that I ask I my concern to get it to success. Hope you guys understand what I mean.

Jimmy,

Do you mind me asking where you are from? Appreciate it if you don't reply "from my Mama"

It is a legitimate request. I want to know if you have rubber trees in your part of the world.

I'm from Malaysia. I don't have rubber estate. Please refer on the top post on me for more details I did mention all before.

[C3C4]

Hi Jim - thanks for the reply on yield, I think I will just have to see how much comes, but as you know - you allways want to calculate and make assumptions.

I have 1431 trees coming up for cutting this year, so with a price of almost 100 tbt per kg solid in sheets dried, the trees should yield 700 kg for all 22 rai(1431 trees) per month for an average of 9 months per year. So that is 644.000 tbt on one year producing, enough to keep the wife happy for another year - I hope and the 2 brothers busy.

But I plan selling cup lumps(50 tbt/kg) and that is even half price of sheets, so it will probably end up with something between 100.000 tbt for us the first year, paying for 50% fertilizer as well as cutters share.

The cutters should have their share of approx. 50% and shared costs. Though I know the first year doesn't produce so much solid rubber. So the breakeven point for such a small operation with fertilizing, working etc. is probably 10 years ahead for me, and I got the land real cheap: 20.000 thb per lei in 2005 (2 years old trees).

That means my wife got it:-), I just pay for it.

But I knew that a long time ago, and most of all it keeps the family busy and very content - that is something in it self!

So all you happy farmers invest in HAPPY family - not good fortune and a way of living having a rubber farm, unless you have plenty of time and money.

[jimmyysk]

Hi Jim - thanks for the reply on yield, I think I will just have to see how much comes, but as you know - you allways want to calculate and make assumptions.

I have 1431 trees coming up for cutting this year, so with a price of almost 100 tbt per kg solid in sheets dried, the trees should yield 700 kg for all 22 rai(1431 trees) per month for an average of 9 months per year. So that is 644.000 tbt on one year producing, enough to keep the wife happy for another year - I hope and the 2 brothers busy.

But I plan selling cup lumps(50 tbt/kg) and that is even half price of sheets, so it will probably end up with something between 100.000 tbt for us the first year, paying for 50% fertilizer as well as cutters share.

The cutters should have their share of approx. 50% and shared costs. Though I know the first year doesn't produce so much solid rubber. So the breakeven point for such a small operation with fertilizing, working etc. is probably 10 years ahead for me, and I got the land real cheap: 20.000 thb per lei in 2005 (2 years old trees).

That means my wife got it:-), I just pay for it.

But I knew that a long time ago, and most of all it keeps the family busy and very content - that is something in it self!

So all you happy farmers invest in HAPPY family - not good fortune and a way of living having a rubber farm, unless you have plenty of time and money.

Thank man. After read your post and others, I feel that rubber estate really not suit for investing especially people like me who don't have much capital and expecting high return. Mostly for those own the land and for living may still okay but not like for make big bucks. My friend advice me if I got such money that money already enough for my retirement living. What do you guy think about my comment?

[C3C4]

Thank man. After read your post and others, I feel that rubber estate really not suit for investing especially people like me who don't have much capital and expecting high return. Mostly for those own the land and for living may still okay but not like for make big bucks. My friend advice me if I got such money that money already enough for my retirement living. What do you guy think about my comment?

Well no big bucks - just small thai baths - but small can be pretty you know..

[Mosha]

The practice down here is, if the tappers want 50%, then they share the feeding costs.