What's With Grace International School?

[ferd54]

Christian-oriented Grace International School has put a "prayer appeal" and request for $10 million in donations on its website because of this:

A recent lawsuit brought against Grace International School has jeopardized the future use of the current school facilities. This suit was filed by the Nittibukon, a neighborhood association legally recognized by the government, charging that GIS had purchased the current property and facilities illegally.

When Grace purchased the property, all papers were properly filed in government offices and the title deeds were legally transferred to the school. All proper due diligence was taken to ensure the legality of the purchase. Due to the enactment of a recent law regarding consumer protection, the Nittibukon claimed what they believe is their right to have the property given to them. In August, 2009, the court ruled against Grace International School, requiring the school to:

· Abandon the facility and turn the land deeds over to them

· Restore the facilities to their original condition

· Pay a fine in excess of $140,000

What’s the story? Seems incredible to me that if all the due diligence and titles were in order this could happen.

[cmsally]

I think what happened was that they purchased the moobahn facilities (from the project owner?) to start their school.

I would have thought it would be obvious that if you purchase the moobahns swimming pool etc there is going to be a problem.

I think we used to have some TV members that resided in World Club, I am sure they know much more about it.

[Priceless]

A long discussion on the subject in this thread: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Grace-Intern...ol-t149705.html

/ Priceless

[ferd54]

A long discussion on the subject in this thread: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Grace-Intern...ol-t149705.html

/ Priceless

After reading through it I see the last post was two years ago when the situation was essentially what the school now posts as fact on their own website -- after losing in court. If they have plans for next school year, they better better start building a new school site now or prevail in court in appeal.

[Loaded]

God's will?

[cmsally]

Grace School - prayer request

From the wording it would seem they are leaning more towards looking for new facilities.

If prayers can raise US$10million, I am going to start praying!

Maybe they haven't heard about world economic recession!

[purplehaze]

God's will?

Inshallah?

[orang37]

Sawasdee Khrup, TV Friends,

Reading the (2007) thread on this topic, helpfully linked to by Khun Priceless on this thread, makes this situation sound more like : "as ye reap, so shall ye sow."

best, ~o37;

[Bill97]

Well Ferd54, there is due diligence and there is Due Diligence. There is due diligence for the buyer and due diligence for the seller. When Grace bought they bought not just land and buildings but they bought responsibilities to many others, not just their God. Clearly they failed in at lease some of those responsibilities.

Anyway it is small potatoes. Other failures of due diligence have brought down and are bring down many more in the world economic situation.

[getgoin]

It wasn't just a law suit against Grace. It was a law suit against the developer who built the complex and sold it to the school, Grace International and the bank that financed the deal.

All 3 defendants lost but the developer has hidden away any assets leaving Grace to shoulder the bulk of the financial burden. The ruling is under appeal.

If the school loses again they will be forced to move.

[infernalman7]

Did Grace really legally purchase the assets though? From what I have heard, they got into a long term rent contract or something with an agreement with the complex developer that they are going to use the facilities only from this time to this time.

Grace is widely hated amongst people who live around that area due to their excessive unfair uses of the facilities.

[BlackArtemis]

Don't worry, they'll send letters home about the dirty heathens forcing them out and how they need more money to be a light on the hill, also a few more fortuners, MU7's and gas the fuel them....

[Loaded]

I don't have a problem with people of any faith doing selfless work to help other people. I have a big problem with self-proscribed 'messengers' from God receiving more money in a month for doing their God's work than the people they are preaching to earn in a lifetime. Did these Christians read the parable where Jesus distributed the loaves and fish EQUALLY? Big houses, two-car families, private schools for their children, servants to clean their dirt, cooks to make their food, Duke's to serve them 1,000 baht meals. It is hypocrisy and moral corruption to an extreme. No wonder their God has punished them.

Edited January 23, 2010 by Loaded

[Gonzo the Face]

I don't have a problem with people of any faith doing selfless work to help other people. I have a big problem with self-proscribed 'messengers' from God receiving more money in a month for doing their God's work than the people they are preaching to earn in a lifetime. Did these Christians read the parable where Jesus distributed the loaves and fish EQUALLY? Big houses, two-car families, private schools for their children, servants to clean their dirt, cooks to make their food, Duke's to serve them 1,000 baht meals. It is hypocrisy and moral corruption to an extreme. No wonder their God has punished them.

HEY ! ! Whats The Dukes got to do with Grace and its problems...

Sounds like you are picking on The Dukes , carelessly'

IMO The Dukes is the best in CM. Good Food and Good Value,,,,,,, so whats your beef? [or pork]

[ferd54]

Big houses, two-car families, private schools for their children, servants to clean their dirt, cooks to make their food, Duke's to serve them 1,000 baht meals. It is hypocrisy and moral corruption to an extreme.

Well said. I attended a couple of combined international school sports days at the 700-year stadium that seemed to be mostly organized by Grace. The teachers seemed very experienced -- obviously those on this mission were professional teachers and sports coaches back in the States -- but they were intense in the extreme as if they were still coaching in central Texas rather than the north of Thailand. They had the whiff of the green newcomer all over them, and probably stayed that way their full (one or two year -- Wow what an adventure!) tenure. They were certainly very assured of the correct way of doing everything.

But for parents who want their kids to have exposure to "real Americans" Grace probably fits the bill. Dubya won two elections after all (well, kind of).

I too saw large tables of them eating like they do in the States at that restaurant. Burgers, fries and steaks the whole way. Then into the new car and back to the walled compound. I have to say I felt a twinge of jealousy. "Now that's not a bad scam they've got going," I thought to myself. All paid for in fine style by their missions back in the States. But that quickly passed. Actually it more reminded me of the Simpsons do Thailand or something. Would be great as a skit on Saturday Night Live.

[Thakkar]

I don't have a problem with people of any faith doing selfless work to help other people. I have a big problem with self-proscribed 'messengers' from God receiving more money in a month for doing their God's work than the people they are preaching to earn in a lifetime. Did these Christians read the parable where Jesus distributed the loaves and fish EQUALLY? Big houses, two-car families, private schools for their children, servants to clean their dirt, cooks to make their food, Duke's to serve them 1,000 baht meals. It is hypocrisy and moral corruption to an extreme. No wonder their God has punished them.

HEY ! ! Whats The Dukes got to do with Grace and its problems...

Sounds like you are picking on The Dukes , carelessly'

IMO The Dukes is the best in CM. Good Food and Good Value,,,,,,, so whats your beef? [or pork]

Calm down Gonzo.

The Duke's is a relatively pricey eatery (and worth every baht, no doubt). If these missionaries are living off donations (they may not be) that are collected in the name of helping the poor and spreading the Word, then it is rather unseemly to be spending several times the daily minimum wage on one meal, however scrumptious that meal.

Now, I don't know this for a fact, but I've read in these forums that many of these missionaries can be spotted at The Duke's. Perhaps they're spending their own money and not living off the donors' dime. Even then, a little discretion might be appropriate.

Perhaps these Americans spotted at The Duke's aren't missionaries at all, perhaps they're just bible-carrying, prim and proper non-swearing Americans being mistaken for missionaries. In which case Loaded is guilty of misrepresenting some of The Duke's diners—not The Duke's itself.

Let's see... I've managed five mentions of The Duke's, no, wait—six.

[FarangCravings]

I don't have a problem with people of any faith doing selfless work to help other people. I have a big problem with self-proscribed 'messengers' from God receiving more money in a month for doing their God's work than the people they are preaching to earn in a lifetime. Did these Christians read the parable where Jesus distributed the loaves and fish EQUALLY? Big houses, two-car families, private schools for their children, servants to clean their dirt, cooks to make their food, Duke's to serve them 1,000 baht meals. It is hypocrisy and moral corruption to an extreme. No wonder their God has punished them.

HEY ! ! Whats The Dukes got to do with Grace and its problems...

Sounds like you are picking on The Dukes , carelessly'

IMO The Dukes is the best in CM. Good Food and Good Value,,,,,,, so whats your beef? [or pork]

Calm down Gonzo.

The Duke's is a relatively pricey eatery (and worth every baht, no doubt). If these missionaries are living off donations (they may not be) that are collected in the name of helping the poor and spreading the Word, then it is rather unseemly to be spending several times the daily minimum wage on one meal, however scrumptious that meal.

Now, I don't know this for a fact, but I've read in these forums that many of these missionaries can be spotted at The Duke's. Perhaps they're spending their own money and not living off the donors' dime. Even then, a little discretion might be appropriate.

Perhaps these Americans spotted at The Duke's aren't missionaries at all, perhaps they're just bible-carrying, prim and proper non-swearing Americans being mistaken for missionaries. In which case Loaded is guilty of misrepresenting some of The Duke's diners—not The Duke's itself.

Let's see... I've managed five mentions of The Duke's, no, wait—six.

each to there own, i have never had a good meal at Dukes tried it 3 times and three blanks better food to be had elswhere at a fraction of the price

[earlofwindermere]

While I am also not a fan of Grace, I think that this thread is being a bit unfair to both the school and some of the people who send their kids to it. If we could re-direct it back to the original topic, it would be more useful to me.

Specifically, how could this legal case actually have happened? Isn't it a bit scarey to anyone else that it's possible to buy property, have it legally processed and then told several years later that it was all wrong... and then sued because of it?

Is this kind of scenario common in Thailand? What incompetent law firm did Grace use? Perhaps people connected to the situation could help us all by telling us how to avoid a similar situation ourselves.

[el jefe]

I don't have a problem with people of any faith doing selfless work to help other people. I have a big problem with self-proscribed 'messengers' from God receiving more money in a month for doing their God's work than the people they are preaching to earn in a lifetime. Did these Christians read the parable where Jesus distributed the loaves and fish EQUALLY? Big houses, two-car families, private schools for their children, servants to clean their dirt, cooks to make their food, Duke's to serve them 1,000 baht meals. It is hypocrisy and moral corruption to an extreme. No wonder their God has punished them.

HEY ! ! Whats The Dukes got to do with Grace and its problems...

Sounds like you are picking on The Dukes , carelessly'

IMO The Dukes is the best in CM. Good Food and Good Value,,,,,,, so whats your beef? [or pork]

I was planning on having dinner tomorrow night at Pun Pun GH. But I respect your opinion on food, Gonzo. If you really think Duke's has "the best in CM. Good Food and Good Value" then maybe I should go there instead. I've rarely had a bad meal there, but was looking for something different.

Seriously, Loaded wasn't picking on Duke's. If anything he was praising them.

[Gonzo the Face]

I don't have a problem with people of any faith doing selfless work to help other people. I have a big problem with self-proscribed 'messengers' from God receiving more money in a month for doing their God's work than the people they are preaching to earn in a lifetime. Did these Christians read the parable where Jesus distributed the loaves and fish EQUALLY? Big houses, two-car families, private schools for their children, servants to clean their dirt, cooks to make their food, Duke's to serve them 1,000 baht meals. It is hypocrisy and moral corruption to an extreme. No wonder their God has punished them.

HEY ! ! Whats The Dukes got to do with Grace and its problems...

Sounds like you are picking on The Dukes , carelessly'

IMO The Dukes is the best in CM. Good Food and Good Value,,,,,,, so whats your beef? [or pork]

I was planning on having dinner tomorrow night at Pun Pun GH. But I respect your opinion on food, Gonzo. If you really think Duke's has "the best in CM. Good Food and Good Value" then maybe I should go there instead. I've rarely had a bad meal there, but was looking for something different.

Seriously, Loaded wasn't picking on Duke's. If anything he was praising them.

OH ! ! Those fingers of mine are just like news reporters sometimes ...... always taking things from my brain out of context....

What I really meant to say was that The Dukes is one of the 2 top eatin spots in CM.....

Maybe if we two merged, he could be named and Dun Dun & I could be called The Pukes.>>>>> naw that don't sound right...... dam_n fingers again u know

G

now back to the topic at hand......Amazing Grace..... I hope they are able to stay open. We have a lot of friends/customers from down there.

Edited January 23, 2010 by Gonzo the Face

[zuzkate]

While I am also not a fan of Grace, I think that this thread is being a bit unfair to both the school and some of the people who send their kids to it. If we could re-direct it back to the original topic, it would be more useful to me.

Specifically, how could this legal case actually have happened? Isn't it a bit scarey to anyone else that it's possible to buy property, have it legally processed and then told several years later that it was all wrong... and then sued because of it?

Is this kind of scenario common in Thailand? What incompetent law firm did Grace use? Perhaps people connected to the situation could help us all by telling us how to avoid a similar situation ourselves.

Grace paid for facilities that was not the sellers to sell. The Thailand legal system will slowly eek it out. Grace is an excellent school and will survive .Stop the rants.

[ferd54]

Grace paid for facilities that was not the sellers to sell. The Thailand legal system will slowly eek it out. Grace is an excellent school and will survive .Stop the rants.

It seems a lot of the dispute centered around the sports club and swimming pool. As I recall the compound was called World Club or something and homes sold with the sports facilities as the showpiece. Then Grace arrived and somehow took control of the facilities and left homeowners without a club. Is that essentially correct?

The question remains that if Grace paid for something that was not the seller's right to sell, why was that not uncovered in due diligence? It perhaps could have been negotiated, but as the previous thread outlined, the school did not really want to do so. I suppose understandable if they thought they bought the club outright.

Incidentally, Grace is an outgrowth of a group called New Tribes that home-schooled their kids. The ones I met were long-term, multi-generational missionaries who certainly knew the local cultures. Some had hilltribe languages as their first and literally grew up in the mountains. They seemed quite nice people. As Grace came into being, and the sponsored teachers on a mission arrived, it seemed a much different story.

[PeaceBlondie]

World Club is a huge place filled with everything from mansions to modest rented two-bedrooms. I see hatred against anything spiritual in this thread, so I won't moderate. I sat beside Grace staff recently - at a Mike's burger bar. Nice folks, doing education for Americans, Koreans on scholarships, poor missionary families ministering to hill tribes, etc. Bright students, well trained staff, etc.

[ferd54]

I see hatred against anything spiritual in this thread...

I am all for spiritual connections and enlightenment if we can find it, but what that has to do with Bible-thumpers is beyond me. Red-neck values do not strike me as spiritual in any way. In their own religion, Jesus said the meek will inherit the earth. A little true humility and caring for the real poor would go a long way. The Koreans are at every international school in Chiang Mai because it is a much cheaper alternative to the price such an education would cost in South Korea -- so that's basically meaningless in ministering to the needy.

[Bill97]

Specifically, how could this legal case actually have happened? Isn't it a bit scarey to anyone else that it's possible to buy property, have it legally processed and then told several years later that it was all wrong... and then sued because of it?

Is this kind of scenario common in Thailand?

Not common but ......

No title insurance here so you have to find a lawyer who can research the title back many years to determine if it is clean.

Grace knew there were claims on the property and at least initially at least partially acknowledged those claims by providing homeowners some use of the facilities.

Do not to buy any property which is encumbered in any way with claims of others. Not just in Thailand.

Edited January 23, 2010 by Bill97

[Ulysses G.]

Red-neck values do not strike me as spiritual in any way.

I was raised as a Christian - mostly against my will - and I am not crazy many of the things that some of them have done, or about missionaries coming here to turn the locals away from Buddhism, but that does not mean that they are not sincere in their beliefs and are not trying to help in their own way.

I've met a lot of Christian missionaries over the years and, in general, they are good, educated, family people doing their best to answer God's call. I grew up in the Southern part of America, surrounded by the Klu Klux Klan and believe me, these people are not "rednecks" in any way.

They live in their compounds in about the same way that they would have if they had never left home - when they can. They want their children to live good lives and be comfortable. Who can blame them for wanting decent houses or for eating out once in a while. They are trying to help Jesus, not be him.

To be honest, I know little to nothing about the situation at Grace School, but to lump together all Christians in a negative way seems about as unenlightened as human beings can get. They are trying to figure out their way through life just like the rest of us.

Edited January 23, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[PeaceBlondie]

I see hatred against anything spiritual in this thread...

I am all for spiritual connections and enlightenment if we can find it, but what that has to do with Bible-thumpers is beyond me. Red-neck values do not strike me as spiritual in any way. In their own religion, Jesus said the meek will inherit the earth. A little true humility and caring for the real poor would go a long way. The Koreans are at every international school in Chiang Mai because it is a much cheaper alternative to the price such an education would cost in South Korea -- so that's basically meaningless in ministering to the needy.

My post was not directed at yours, ferd. Not all 'Bible-thumpers' are red-necks; many have doctorates. Yes, Jesus was an outspoken champion of the poor, hookers, half-breeds, etc. His opening sermon about jubilee for the oppressed nearly got Him stoned. I helped a student transfer to Grace; her father ministered to Hill Tribes. Another lived in Koolpunt, barely able to pay reduced tuition. Another 's father ran an orphanage. Many students aren't missionary kids; one's father ran a diamond mine. Have a good day.

[Bill97]

It wasn't just a law suit against Grace. It was a law suit against the developer who built the complex and sold it to the school, Grace International and the bank that financed the deal.

All 3 defendants lost but the developer has hidden away any assets leaving Grace to shoulder the bulk of the financial burden. The ruling is under appeal.

If the school loses again they will be forced to move.

Common sense in a situation like this says that the developer would have no money and the court would know it. The bank could not have hidden assets, so if Grace has to shoulder the bulk of the financial burden that means that the court decision intended it to be that way, doesn't it?

To others, not Getgoin: If there is no information to indicate that the court's decision was religiously biased, all this religious discussion is off topic, open your own thread for religious rants and leave this one for the legal property rights issues specific to the topic.

[ferd54]

...all this religious discussion is off topic.

Because religion is the reason Grace was founded in Chiang Mai, discussion of the school inevitably involves religion. The fact they are fundamentalist Christians may not be how they got into legal trouble with their school site, but the manner of how well they coexisted with their neighbors could be. Perhaps more of a cultural issue than a religious one.

They must have been aware that existing homeowners had a claim on the swimming pool and clubhouse yet apparently excluded them from using the facilities. Doesn't strike me as particularly fair ... or dare I say it ... Christian. Would be interesting to know more of the specifics -- did they get homeowners to sign off on losing their club rights, etc., or did they move ahead after just doing a deal with the developer?

The call for a cool $10 million to bail them out might also set some wondering vis-a-vis their US-level lifestyle in Chiang Mai. Incidentally if they want their children (and themselves) to match their US lifestyle, they might just stay in the US. But where the get their money I suppose is not really our business unless it's harmful or illegal.

All that said, from a couple of rather extensive interactions I had with teachers at Grace, I think they are likely very well qualified. I've heard they reject Darwinism in favor of Creationism, but I've never been in their science class so I can't say for sure.

[PeaceBlondie]

Agreed, fundamentalist Christians are fundamentally Christians, so that it reflects on everything they do. As for the cost of buying land legally, and starting a 13-year campus, it might cost far more than US$5 million. How much did Prem and APIS cost? Former students at Lanna complained of leaking roofs.