Chiang Mai In Chaos

[powderpuff]

It's up to the Mayor to maintain law & order.

People should be allowed to go about their lawful business without being hindered.

The people should be allocated a place to protest.

When will our hosts figure out that rule of law trumps the rule of the jungle?

[WinnieTheKhwai]

That particular spot is an awkward and unsuitable place to hold an event of any kind. That police HQ actually has a huge parking lot in there that would make more sense as a place to gather and would accommodate a couple hundred protesters, while still being visible from the road. Blocking most of the the road doesn't make sense and won't gain any sympathies for their larger cause.

Even with the current skewed constitution I think they have a good shot at winning it if they focus on organizing themselves better and preparing for elections. We've seen clearly and harshly that elected government rules only by the grace of the powers that be, but an election victory could go some way to turn the tide and start to rebuild some of what was lost on 19 September 2006. What was lost by the use of military force and threat of violence won't be gained back with an answer that includes (the threat of) violence and disruption. May not be fair, but it's the way it is.

Edited January 30, 2010 by WinnieTheKhwai

[ManilaLover]

If the gov does not change their 'softy' approach of those annoying red mosquitos the situation can only get worse. Gov is being confronted with their own incapability and therefor it make me laugh as well, but actualy it's very sad how Thakin still manages to hijack this country by misusing those simple people.

I would launch some Spanish bulls on those red shirts, hahaha... the ones from Pamplona are the best

[Ulysses G.]

The government knows that Thaksin and the redshirts have a lot of popular support and they do not want to start a bloodbath. They are doing the right thing.

[wolf5370]

an AK49? You sir do not mess around.

What gun do you want? an AK47?

No that will not do. I will require an AK48 or 49 at the least.

I believe an AK49 is a paintball gun! If kalashnikov athere are much better and more modern rifles than the velnerable 47 (though never a 49 assualt rife as far as I know - 74, then 100+).

I weeded through the Mahidal Road (fly-over) rally last night on my way home from a school fun day. Traffic very slow, but didn't seem to be any trouble at all. People sitting down listening to someone on their soapbox. Their were red-shirt directing traffic around rally and they has cordoned off parking areas so people didn't just stop. It was a pin, 3 lanes down to 1 for a 100 yards or so, but saw nothing other than smiles from the reds.

[Fitzy]

So just how ugly do you folks reckon this business is going to get? I'm visiting with my wife, supposed to be here until March, but reading stories such as this one makes me think about bumping up our departure a bit.

And sure, that first story has quite a bit of opinion in it, but I don't see how any acts of mob violence can be yawned at in any way, regardless of whom you support.

[cmsally]

CMSally --- You provided no context with your 2 statements leaving it to the reader to figure out what you meant. You didn't say much of anything. You added 1 possibly related statement to the first section (the attack on the house) and one unrelated statement to the second section (the threat to seize the police building).

As far as social consensus, you just avoided the point. So let me spell out the point to be answered there.

What is the "social consensus" regarding the use of violence when attacking the house with the women and children in it? What group is this a consensus of? If your answer is "It is a consensus of the thugs that attacked the house with the women and children, that it was a proper thing to do". Then I would agree with you. However, if you state that it is the consensus of the majority of the people in Thailand, or Chiang Mai, or even amongst people that are sympathetic to the red-shirt movement; that attacking that house and scaring the women and children was proper, then I would say that you are way off base. I think the same regarding the threat to escalate the violence at the police station.

And yes you did serve to illustrate your own point about the fruitlessness ........

Surely it doesn't need to be spelt out any clearer.

My first 2 posts, I was pointing out additional details of the situation at point. They are not unrelated and my aim was to widen the discussion without getting into a slanging match. I stated facts as I had seen reported in that they bore relation to the discussion. What the readers sees fit to understand, is up to them and hopefully encourage them to read more than is presented on this forum; and well we can see the reasons for that...

As for Social Consensus, I did not avoid the point. Violence is the product of a breakdown of social consensus, as I said.

I was not talking about a consensus as to the use of violence. Protests/violence occur when there is a breakdown in the social consensus. I am talking about the social consensus in regards as to how it relates to Thai society as a whole. There is then the interfactional social consensus within different groups which is what you are looking at.

This is more of a mirror of what is going on at a higher level . I doubt that there is a group consensus of violence, but the higher echelons know that it is a necessary tool (using those at a lower level) when jostling for a position at the top.

[brommers]

So just how ugly do you folks reckon this business is going to get? I'm visiting with my wife, supposed to be here until March, but reading stories such as this one makes me think about bumping up our departure a bit.

And sure, that first story has quite a bit of opinion in it, but I don't see how any acts of mob violence can be yawned at in any way, regardless of whom you support.

I live here and have done so for some time. All I can say to advise you is that there are a lot of 'drama queens' who love to spout outrageous over-exaggerations, such as using the title Chiang Mai in Chaos and raking over a lot of old coals. The simple fact is that there are a small number of people who are behaving a lot less violently than at many demo's in other countries. Yes last year was a very bad one in a small number of localities in a few large cities but there are few signs that anyone need feel threatened on a personal level in Chiang Mai. My suggestion is read the newspapers and use your judgement, and you will have no problems.

[Briggsy]

The struggle for political power in Thailand has always been and still is very violent.

[Thailand]

So- what happened to the chaos (Chaos is a state of complete disorder and confusion.) -did I miss it?

[cmsally]

Of course we mustn't forget that it wasn't simply a reshuffling of the coalition partners. There were other events such as the party at the airport and the warm up party at Govt. House. We can all try and dissociate the Democrats and PAD but the fact is they are rather entwined.

I think Thai people have a fairly good understanding of the system, warts and all.

Thais are generally very adapt at consensus and compromise but unfortunately that doesn't always apply to those towards the top of the pile.

[ogb]

Back to the chaos - is it reasonable or unreasonable that a police chief remains in his position when he is indicted in relation to a serious criminal offence?

Also is it reasonable or unreasonable that a group of citizens are concerned enough about that situation to stage a peaceful protest?

btw, I don't condone violence, but at least in this case there seems to be a legitimate reason to protest

(unlike the airport invasion, the leaders of which still have not been prosecuted)

[Ricardo]

I came across the bridge across the Mae Ping on Mahidol Road this afternoon and they've set up a stage and blocked most of the road just in front of the police station. The people I saw looked akin to the thugs of the blackshirts in the 30s. However, they have a lot of support in the North and it's a brave police captain that orders his officers to break up these gatherings.

So- what happened to the chaos (Chaos is a state of complete disorder and confusion.) -did I miss it?

I drove over this bridge this afternoon.

The stage was still there, but absolutely deserted, and barriers still blocked the entrance to the police-station. Looked like the action was all over, I hope.

[jdinasia]

Back to the chaos - is it reasonable or unreasonable that a police chief remains in his position when he is indicted in relation to a serious criminal offence?

Also is it reasonable or unreasonable that a group of citizens are concerned enough about that situation to stage a peaceful protest?

btw, I don't condone violence, but at least in this case there seems to be a legitimate reason to protest

(unlike the airport invasion, the leaders of which still have not been prosecuted)

Are you suggesting that people that are indicted but hold a public office should step down? Personally I would agree with that .. but let's see how that plays out. Samak -- not only didn't step down he stepped UP! (The Dem governor of BKK stepped down even though he wasn't in the wrong -- when his indictment was handed down he resigned)

Is it reasonable to hold a peaceful protest regardless of the reasons? Yes

Is a protest peaceful when its leadership states

"If our demand is not met, then the crowds of red shirts would surge and seize the police regional headquarters," he said.

then of course the answer is No ..

Is the reason the protest is occurring due to the indictment? (no) or due to arrest warrants being issued against redshirt leaders? (yes) So if that is the case .... is this protest legitimate? I think most people would say ~~If the protest is about the indictment of the leader of the police -- yes, but if it is about the arrest warrants against protesters that attacked a house with women and children in it --- no~~

Let's face it .. the reds have shown that the only thing they see is blood and the only reason for it is Thaksin's money. They aren't "for" democracy -- they won't even let other political parties campaign. They aren't for free speech. They aren't for non-violence. They have one real agenda and that is the return of Thaksin and his wallet.

[cmsally]

Is it reasonable to hold a peaceful protest which culminates in the seizure of an international airport?

Well I suppose the answer is no, but some seem to think it's not a problem.

The trouble is precedents can be dangerous things. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[Ulysses G.]

It is a fact that every time Thaksin or someone who supports Thaksin runs for office, they get far more votes than anyone else. What do you think?

Edited February 9, 2010 by thaiphoon
Deleted quote removed

[ferd54]

Thaksin was a gate-crasher who disturbed the status quo and some very powerful people. His support base obviously feels he more on their side than any of the elite classes have ever been. I doubt Thaksinites feel much in common with the current Oxford-educated PM, if anything at all. The Democrats have always struck me as effete caretaker governments that are happy to go through the motions and let the true power brokers work behind the scenes as they always have.

Some say Thaksin paid for the votes, so I say he bought the elections fair and square because those are the prevailing rules in Thai politics. He played by the rules and won, so they changed the rules. He's an arrogant ass, sure, but perhaps he can actually do more for the poor rural class (the overwhelming majority of the Thai population, after all). The Bangkok elite has had a century or two to help improve the lives of the poor and it just ain't happened and it never will under the archaic system in place.

Edited January 30, 2010 by ferd54

[jdinasia]

Is it reasonable to hold a peaceful protest which culminates in the seizure of an international airport?

Well I suppose the answer is no, but some seem to think it's not a problem.

The trouble is precedents can be dangerous things. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Hmmm is it reasonable to hold a peaceful protest that RESULTS in an airport's being closed down? That should be the question shouldn't it? Suwarnapoom wasn't 'seized' it was sadly surrendered. The fact that the PAD was being attacked by grenades almost daily didn't seem to be an issue with people (people that like the Reds, that is). The fact that a Red leader called for those attacks never resulted in the reds distancing themselves from Seh Daeng. In fact he has recently, on behalf of the Reds, declared himself the Red leader and declared war on the military and threatened the judges. Yet STILL the red leadership does not disavow him .....

But this thread is about Chiang Mai and the insane ultra-violent red clique that threatens peaceful existence here.

[mcgriffith]

Really not much we can do about this, which is why the farang rhetoric is so heated on both sides.

We don't have a horse in the race, a dog in the fight...whatever metaphor.

All we can do is watch and wait, and hope for the best.

It is little consolation, I know, but as recently as the 1920's and 30's in the so-called developed world, there were race riots, violent suppression by governments of peaceful protesters....Oh, and let's not forget 2 world wars.

We farang have lived in relative peace and tranquility in our home countries in the last decade or so, then we retire to Thailand....and expect it to be a basket of flowers, with chocolates on the pillow.

Sorry to say, but it is not so splendid back in the Old Country these days. And Thailand is still finding its way to democracy. And I have no doubt it will get there, someday. But not in the next week, unfortunately.

Let's not get our knickers in a twist on this. We are farang. We can't vote. The Thai people will work this out, on their own terms, in their own time.

I wish them Godspeed.

(From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

"Godspeed, as a word, is a wish for a prosperous journey, success, and good fortune (from Middle English God speed you, meaning "May God help you prosper" comes from "God speed the plough"[1], a wish for success or prosperity, originally a phrase in a 15th-century song sung by ploughmen on Plough Monday). It is also used occasionally in a non-religious manner, intended as a wish for a job to be accomplished quickly. As part of the English naval tradition, the phrase was uttered in launching military vessels, and today is heard during NASA space shuttle countdowns."

[flying]

Nice post mcgriffith

[WinnieTheKhwai]

We don't have a horse in the race, a dog in the fight...whatever metaphor.

I have one pony in that race, and one on the way. I hope that answers the metaphor.

And Thailand is still finding its way to democracy. And I have no doubt it will get there, someday. But not in the next week, unfortunately.

Agreed. And Thailand won't get there through inaction.

Edited January 30, 2010 by WinnieTheKhwai

[Ulysses G.]

I do not support the yellows or the reds, I just want to live here peacefully. However, that does not mean that I do not read the newspapers. There has been plenty of violence on both sides and anyone who is interested and follows the news knows it.

I'm not sure why some foreigners need to misrepresent the situation other than they seem to have decided that Thaksin is some kind of bogeyman, but blatantly lying over and over again to people who have been here all along about what has taken place is not going to win them any converts. Both sides need to stick to the facts.

[Thailand]

Now if only the powers that be came to TV and took in all the advice then everything would be OK.

Hold on though, there actually seems to be more conflict here than in Thailand itself- better forget my initial premise.

Carry on.

[ChiangMaiFun]

Now if only the powers that be came to TV and took in all the advice then everything would be OK.

Hold on though, there actually seems to be more conflict here than in Thailand itself- better forget my initial premise.

Carry on.

haha

[realthaideal]

Yes.... democracy and all its blessings. Thank goodness countries like the USA had it stabilized and controlled by big business long ago. Corporations look out for our interests best. Now that's an advanced society ! Peaceful and..... darn near perfect.

Luckily more malls and shopping centers are coming to Thailand... so eventually they may reach the same zenith of the true meaning of democracy.

[orang37]

... snip ... Yes.... democracy and all its blessings. ... snip ...

Sawasdee Khrup Khun RealThaiDeal,

We like so agree with you, dude : it is only a matter of time that all the world should be one gigantic Corporate-Occupied-Mallburgerland, like our own human's birthplace, America.

Just infecting other countries with the American lust for consumerism and lowest-common-denominator novelty will make needing to actually militarily invade other countries and committing genocide (and all that energy going into constructing the flimsy excuses for doing so) will be saved, and can be spent on new gadgets, violent video games, clothing styles for the next twittering generation of ipod/pad fashionistas coming along who can multi-task one-hundred things at-a-time, but who have the attention span of gnats.

There are such obviously simple answers to the problems that appear as "focal conflicts" in the world now : just take that whole thing in France with the issue of banning people of a certain religion and gender from wearing veils or complete body coverings (burkas) : obviously the answer is to make burkas compulsory for everyone; in the process creating countless jobs for designers, cloth manufacturers.

Just in this thread alone, the vast collective wisdom displayed here on how Thailand should solve its problems, and how those problems can be reduced to trivial conundrums, independent of complex historical context, is just an awesome display of crowd-sourcing intelligence of the type that has made America and Europe the bastions of meaninglessness they are today

Of course, for us, the most tasty flavour of chaos is always found : in a mirror.

By the way, a few quotes from America's "founding fathers" on "democracy" :

Thomas Jefferson : "A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine."

Thomas Paine : "The first duty of a patriot is to defend the citizens of a country from its government."

John Quincy Adams : "Democracy... while it lasts is more bloody than either aristocracy or monarchy. Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There is never a democracy that did not commit suicide."

Benjamin Franklin : "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."

Edited January 31, 2010 by orang37

[Publicus]

Washington DC and Bangkok were founded contemporaneously in history and look at the difference.

Anyway, how'd this thread get from goons in Chiang Mai threatening to attack a police station to Thomas Jefferson? Some people are making a real stretch of things Thai.

[Ulysses G.]

Just infecting other countries with the American lust for consumerism...

Let's get real Khun Orang. Thailand has been known as a place where you can buy absolutely anything for a price, for long before I was born. I don't think that the Great Satan exactly had to do a lot of arm twisting to get Thai people into the shopping malls.

[orang37]

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun UG,

... snip ... Let's get real Khun Orang.

Not possible, sorry, we manufacture only ersatz copies of ourselves using our patented "fractal duality-reality" technology. Asking for the "real stuff" here is like ordering a Pepsi Max at the Mad Hatter's Tea Party.

Thailand has been known as a place where you can buy absolutely anything for a price, for long before I was born.

How long after you were born did you know how long before you were born ? We think we see a hint of your "inner Orang" manifesting here ! By the way, what is the going price for "happiness" in Thailand : is it still "always more than you can afford," like it used to be ?

I don't think that the Great Satan exactly had to do a lot of arm twisting to get Thai people into the shopping malls.

We have not had any twisty experiences with "Great Satan" ourselves; that is a flavour we associate with a certain religion. We did not intend to cast any aspersions on the sacred right of every person to enjoy shopping : in fact it's the very frustrations of people deprived of shopping that causes so much grief and unrest in the world today.

Humans are born to shop. Children who lack access to Nintendo and PS3's are going to become child-soldiers with AK-47's in armies which will all call themselves "The Army of God." Most terrorists have grown up without wide-screen television : q.e.d. Those immigrants in France who burn so many cars : of course they are angry : their neighborhoods don't have malls.

American identity can be perfectly summed up in the phrase : "I shop, therefore I am."

Given a choice between the chaos of America, and the chaos of Thailand (which we subjectively perceive as being like totally different flavours of chaos) : our feet voted to live in Chiang Mai. For us, there's more smiles in the flavour ... here.

But, deny people their right to shop : chaos.

best, ~o:37;

Edited January 31, 2010 by orang37

[Publicus]

I see attempts are being made to try to hijack this thread by somehow connecting a mob of goons in Chiang Mai to Thomas Jefferson, who sent Lewis and Clark to expand the infant nation's horizons to the northwest Pacific and who made the Louisiana Purchase which resulted in the creation of 16 states in the heartland of the Union of the States. (In the modern New World a nation doesn't need to prove itself by existing for a thousand years, or by half as many.)

Certain people are trying to denigrate an original 'affluent society' with an Old World decrepit one, as if there were any connection between the two except sharp contrasts in form of government, civilizational origins and development into a distinct identity and the prospects of the future of each.

It's reasonably estimated that when Obama was elected half of the anti-Americanism in the world dissipated. But there always will be the other half of anti-Americanism among elements of the global population, especially among so many of Old Europe to include a self-embarrassing number Down Under.

Meanwhile, the world and life moves on.

 

Edited January 31, 2010 by Publicus