British Citizenship/driving In The Uk

[MAZ3]

A word on warning,if your tearak drives in the UK with an international driving permit and gets any ticket(3 points/60 pound)you HAVE to go to Court and she is then is deemed as not of good character for 5 YEARS and cannot get British Citizenship/Passport until 5 years from the court case.

We found out the hard,just a speeding ticket and that was it!.

Wonderful

[mark515]

Wow.

I find this hard to believe.

[7by7]

If convicted of an offence, one normally has to wait until that conviction is 'spent' before one can apply for British citizenship. See Good character requirement.

However, in the FAQs it does say

I have a recent conviction for a minor offence. Should I still wait until the conviction has become spent before I apply for citizenship?

We will normally disregard a single conviction for a minor offence resulting in a bind over, conditional discharge or relatively small fine or compensation order, if a person is suitable for citizenship in all other respects. By 'minor offences' we mean speeding or other 'regulatory' offences.Offences involving dishonesty (for example theft), violence or sexual offences are not classed as minor offences. Drink-driving offences, driving while uninsured or disqualified are also not minor offences.

BTW, how long has your wife been resident in the UK?

New residents from outside the EU can only drive with a foreign licence or an IDP for a maximum of 12 months from taking up residence. At the end of this time if they have not obtained a full GB (or in Northern Ireland, NI) licence then they must stop driving until such time as they do; although they can of course still drive as a learner if they have a provisional GB or NI licence. (See here)

If she has been resident for more than 12 months and was driving without a GB or NI licence, then she could also have been prosecuted for driving otherwise than in accordance with a licence, maximum fine £1000, 3 to 6 penalty points and possible disqualification. Not having a valid licence could also invalidate any insurance she has. Driving without insurance; max £5000 fine, 6 to 8 penalty points, possible disqualification. (Source) These would not be considered minor offences for a citizenship application.

[MAZ3]

you are correct about the Licensing reqirements,if she got the speeding on her Uk licence then no problem as its a minor offence,its going to court that kicks in the good character clause.The 5 year wait for any court appearence is NOT in the guide,its states minor traffics,such as speeding are allowed.

The Police offered the 3 points but they cannot be put onto a IDP only a Uk licence and so to court she went,not a big problem so we thought just a higher fine.

The Home office "helpline" confirmed this rule and so did the Register checking the form

I,m/we are screwed

Edited February 5, 2010 by MAZ3

[7by7]

Can I ask why she didn't have the points put on her UK licence?

Indeed, I cannot understand why, if she has been resident in the UK for more than 12 months, she was allowed to offer an IDP instead.

[MAZ3]

She only had her IDP at the time,but the points were put onto her Uk licence when she applied for it later,by then the damage had been done,as the speeding offence had gone to court.If i had known about the 5 year rule,we would have got a Uk Licence quickly and took them on that.

Its just better not to use a IDP in the Uk,as any offence HAS to go to court

[7by7]

Ah, I see. This must have been during her first year in the UK.

Sorry, I thought you were talking about more recent events.

So, as the conviction will not be considered spent until after 5 years, then I'm afraid that you are correct and she will have to wait until then to apply for citizenship.

[Thongkorn]

With respect , What would she have got if she had killed someone while speeding,Thats why you get speeding tkts.nothing to do with Race or colour.

[Brigante7]

With respect , What would she have got if she had killed someone while speeding,Thats why you get speeding tkts.nothing to do with Race or colour.

With respect, it's not speed that kills it's inapropriate speed that kills, example, driving passed a school at 30mph when the children are leaving is 100 times more dangerous than doing 100mph on an empty motorway at 3 O'clock on a dry summer morning.

Brigante7.

[CharlieB]

With respect , What would she have got if she had killed someone while speeding,Thats why you get speeding tkts.nothing to do with Race or colour.

Did anyone say it was because of her race/colour?

[hansnl]

I cannot believe this, a speeding ticket means you cannot apply for citizenship/passport?

So speeding makes you, in fact, a criminal, because not being of good character.

I just wonder, what all those imam hatemongers have to do before they are deemed not being of good character.

What happened to the England I knew so well for nearly forty years?

What happened to the wisdom of the laws?

Edited February 6, 2010 by hansnl

[CharlieB]

I cannot believe this, a speeding ticket means you cannot apply for citizenship/passport?

So speeding makes you, in fact, a criminal, because not being of good character.

I just wonder, what all those imam hatemongers have to do before they are deemed not being of good character.

What happened to the England I knew so well for nearly forty years?

What happened to the wisdom of the laws?

It's not the speeding ticket, it's the court appearance.

[MAZ3]

I cannot believe this, a speeding ticket means you cannot apply for citizenship/passport?

So speeding makes you, in fact, a criminal, because not being of good character.

I just wonder, what all those imam hatemongers have to do before they are deemed not being of good character.

What happened to the England I knew so well for nearly forty years?

What happened to the wisdom of the laws?

It's not the speeding ticket, it's the court appearance.

CharlieB has it spot on,its the court appearance not the offence does makes her not of good character.

Its one of the many reasons i want out,I loved England but now???

[MAZ3]

With respect , What would she have got if she had killed someone while speeding,Thats why you get speeding tkts.nothing to do with Race or colour.

With respect, it's not speed that kills it's inapropriate speed that kills, example, driving passed a school at 30mph when the children are leaving is 100 times more dangerous than doing 100mph on an empty motorway at 3 O'clock on a dry summer morning.

Brigante7.

I agree.

Where she got flashed it was a temp speed limit from 50 to 30 due to roadworks on a 3 lane carriageway(no school or houses etc) just about a mile after the M3 and normally people are still doing motorway speeds and the junction you have to do a least 40MPH up a ramp from under a blind bridge to join and no markings until you were on the carriageway(i checked it out)and then the cameras are right in front of you.Nice money earner,over a Millionpound!!!

[7by7]

They wouldn't have been doing motorway speeds through the roadworks, at least most of them wouldn't.

You must be talking about the Sunbury end of the M3, as at the other end it merges into the M27, and the only on slip that fits your description is the one coming off the Sunbury Way/Feltham Hill Road/Nailhead Road roundabout. Yes, you do have a sharp turn immediately off the roundabout, but then the slip straightens out and one has a reasonable view of what's happening on the A316 before one has to join it.

There is a 50mph sign as one comes off the roundabout, and there should have been signs in the slip warning of the roadworks and temporary speed limit ahead. Even if there were not, the cones should have warned her that something was different and extra care was needed.

I agree that it is unfair that simply because she was driving with an IDP not a UK licence she has been hit with this 5 year 'ban' on applying for citizenship; but please don't try and say the offence wasn't her fault.

I'm still confused over the timing. You say that the registrar checking her form confirmed she cannot apply at present; this suggests that she was submitting an application.

If so, she must have been in the UK at least 3 years, this means she must have arrived late 2006, early 2007 at the latest. Those roadworks started in May 2008 (from my memory, confirmed here).

As this is over 1 year since her latest possible arrival, why was she still using an IDP and not a UK licence as the law requires?

It does look like she was very lucky only to get done for speeding!

[7by7]

I just wonder, what all those imam hatemongers have to do before they are deemed not being of good character.

The daughter of the Imam of the local mosque was at school with my daughter. I wouldn't call him a 'hatemonger' and even if he were, he would not be affected by this as he is, and has been since birth, a British citizen.

Anyone who is applying for citizenship has to satisfy this requirement, and if an applicant were guilty of preaching racial or religious hatred, it is unlikely that they would be able to do so until any conviction had been spent.

[orlov]

Quote

Where she got flashed it was a temp speed limit from 50 to 30 due to roadworks on a 3 lane carriageway(no school or houses etc) just about a mile after the M3 and normally people are still doing motorway speeds and the junction you have to do a least 40MPH up a ramp from under a blind bridge to join and no markings until you were on the carriageway(i checked it out)and then the cameras are right in front of you.Nice money earner,over a Millionpound!!! Unquote

When she got the NIP (notice of intended prosecution) pity she didn't give an address in Thailand that could send it back to her in England. The "safety camera partnership" would probably have written to her address in Thailand and she could have replied that she was indeed driving at the time but wasn't aware of any offence caused. After that the matter would have been dropped. After all, what more could the SCP do?

[7by7]

So, when the NIP arrives the registered keeper of the vehicle declares that the driver was not a UK resident and has now returned to Thailand.

Then when the citizenship application is submitted the applicant does not declare the speeding offence. The UKBA check the records and find that such an offence was committed by the applicant, but they claimed that they were not resident in the UK at the time and returned to Thailand after the offence and before the issue of the NIP. However, the lack of Thai entry stamps in their passport show that they were not in Thailand as claimed.

See where I'm going with this?

[Jaggg88]

Quote

Where she got flashed it was a temp speed limit from 50 to 30 due to roadworks on a 3 lane carriageway(no school or houses etc) just about a mile after the M3 and normally people are still doing motorway speeds and the junction you have to do a least 40MPH up a ramp from under a blind bridge to join and no markings until you were on the carriageway(i checked it out)and then the cameras are right in front of you.Nice money earner,over a Millionpound!!! Unquote

When she got the NIP (notice of intended prosecution) pity she didn't give an address in Thailand that could send it back to her in England. The "safety camera partnership" would probably have written to her address in Thailand and she could have replied that she was indeed driving at the time but wasn't aware of any offence caused. After that the matter would have been dropped. After all, what more could the SCP do?

Ah! I have to admit it was probably one of my colleagues risks assessments that set the speed limit on these road works. Gatso cameras do almost nothing to protect the work force (but did raise lots of revenue) as most drivers slow down for the camera and then speed up - that is why we now use average speed cameras.

My cousin is a USA citizen and visited a number of years ago where she hired a car using her USA licence and subsequently was flashed by a Gatso speed camera. As she had used my address for the hire company they sent all the letters to my address which I forwarded on to USA. She was asked to pay the statutory fine and warned about her driving when next in the UK. If she should wish to apply for UK citizenship a CRB check or even a DVLA check would not show this incident. Indeed even the National Audit office would have difficulty tracing this transaction.

[chris22]

It was an averidge speed camera on the A316 working on central reservation and could have beeen a danger if you had a cross over crash.

Also it was the only way contracters could obtain insurance to work on the road.

Think of construction workers many killed when working on motorways due to speeding drivers.

They were going to close the road completly this was the only solution to keep it open.

[orlov]

So, when the NIP arrives the registered keeper of the vehicle declares that the driver was not a UK resident and has now returned to Thailand.

Then when the citizenship application is submitted the applicant does not declare the speeding offence. The UKBA check the records and find that such an offence was committed by the applicant, but they claimed that they were not resident in the UK at the time and returned to Thailand after the offence and before the issue of the NIP. However, the lack of Thai entry stamps in their passport show that they were not in Thailand as claimed.

See where I'm going with this?

There is no speeding offence, only evidence of an alleged offence. The local Safety Camera Partnership have to find out who the driver was. If a person admits to driving at the time but chooses not to pay the fixed penalty then the SCP have the choice of letting the matter drop or starting a prosecution. If the driver lives abroad then a prosecution is quite pointless. There are 38 SCP's in England and Wales and they each issue thousands of NIP every year. It's a money spinner because most people simply pay up but for those who don't many cases and dropped because they would simply clog up the courts. Anyone living abroad is automatically put into the 'too difficult' catagory and dropped. No offence was committed because nothing was ever proved.

[apetley]

This seems a very harsh decision to me.

A friend of my wife(Thai) has recently been granted British Citizenship and I know that she had been prosecuted within the last couple of years for driving on her Thai driving license for more than the allowed 12 months. She did not have a UK driving license so was disqualified from driving.

I would seek further advice if I were you.

[7by7]

There is no speeding offence, only evidence of an alleged offence.

Quite, and the person driving the vehicle at the time has the choice of admitting the offence, paying the fixed penalty and accepting the penalty points or going to court to present their case.

The local Safety Camera Partnership have to find out who the driver was

The registered keeper of the vehicle has a legal obligation to tell them. Failure to do so may result in a £1000 fine, possible disqualification and 6 penalty points.

It is, as you say, unlikely that a foreign resident would be pursued, but in this case the driver is a UK resident.

[orlov]

It is, as you say, unlikely that a foreign resident would be pursued, but in this case the driver is a UK resident.

She didn't have a UK passport and she wasn't a UK citizen so her stay in the UK might well not have been permament. Therefore nothing illegal in giving her Thai address. It's only an address for correspondence purposes. If the SCP didn't wish to pursue the matter further (and they wouldn't have) then that's their choice. Better than receiving a large fine, a bad character reference and denial of UK citizenship for 5 years.

[7by7]

I don't know what the penalty for being caught making such a false declaration would be, but I bet it'd be a lot worse than the OP's wife's current situation.

You'll probably say that they'd get away with it. Maybe, maybe not. I wouldn't want to take the chance.

It's like those who suggest lying on a visa application; it's true that some do get away with it; most don't.

[orlov]

I don't know what the penalty for being caught making such a false declaration would be, but I bet it'd be a lot worse than the OP's wife's current situation.

You'll probably say that they'd get away with it. Maybe, maybe not. I wouldn't want to take the chance.

It's like those who suggest lying on a visa application; it's true that some do get away with it; most don't.

I don't see it as a false declaration. She was driving on an IDP, issued by virtue of her Thai driving licence which was, in turn, issued by virtue of her Thai residency. For the first year, during the validity of her IDP, her UK address would be considered temporary, as indeed it might well have been. I'm not sure that giving a temporary address is legal either. So what address was she supposed to give?

I admit that I am extremely anti-speed camera. An effective camera is one that doesn't issue any tickets. Find me one of those and I'll buy a you a beer (or three) when I'm next in the UK. Oh, and if I get a speeding ticket while I'm there I'm defininitely giving my Thai address!

[7by7]

It would be a false declaration as the lady in question is resident in the UK with a UK settlement visa, not Thailand. That she has an IDP, which she didn't need anyway, doesn't alter that. She should, and presumably did, give her UK address as that is where she resides.

You giving a Thai address would not be a false declaration as you are resident in Thailand.

An effective camera is one that doesn't issue any tickets

Speed cameras are supposed to be a deterrent, and I'm fairly sure in most locations where they are placed they do cut the number of accidents. However, I don't want to get into a discussion on the rights and wrongs of speed cameras and whether speed limits should be higher or lower, but one fact is, or should be, obvious. Drivers who don't break the speed limit don't get speeding tickets.

Average speed cameras are, I think, a far more effective deterrent, as they avoid the practice of speeding between fixed cameras and slowing down when approaching the next camera. Anyone who regularly drives on the A3 Kingston by-pass will know exactly what I mean! (Yes, I'll admit to doing it!)