Correlation Between Westernisation And Bad Attitudes.

[SeanMoran]

I find it peculiar how people who have spent time in Thailand still hold onto this expectation of getting the same sort of "service" they would expect in western countries..whatever that is..

Also i might suggest that these relatively unimportant occurances might often be excerbated by us farangs who get a little carried away with our own importance

When i first spent time in LOS i was a very sensitive soul and would be offended daily by this sort of seeming neglect, lack of appreciation and down right abuse of my patrionage.Thailand by default is a good place to loose this small minded thinking. In time i would realise i am but one amongst millions who pass this way daily and a dose of reality was learnt thai style..

In this case it IS what it is...a takeaway joint,

you go there to get ..... whatever ghai

you order...the employee gets it for you...you pay...and the transcation is done.

If the little pooying is a tad unattentive all it takes is a discreet sawadeecrap to wake them from their comic book dreams

The whole thing need take no more than a few minutes actually, not as if your visiting the stockbroker!

If your after handshakes,accolades and ego massages then nana plaza has all that in abundance

Oh, and as a bonus you can expect to be showered with various compliments and EXPECT to be called hansum man

Okay then. It's all my fault.

Ahhh dont be like that m888t,

khar tot krap if i was a little tough on ya But some of us expect a little more bite from you than that, ole mate

Maybe you havent had enough Chang tonight

Wish i could be over there to have me some..well LEO anyway

It is true that I have finally been able to revert to the Chang Lite again tonight, so my Dutch courage isn't at it's usual peaks tonight, but don't be too sad, for it's bound to run out some time in the next few days and send me back to the full-strength Chang again once more, but and my therapist has advised me to inform you that we apologise for the interruption to normal services but stay tuned for next week's episode of "Seano goes Troppo".

[Latindancer]

Sean , back to your original point though.....yes, I'm sure that many Thais feel rather keenly the "McDonaldisation" of their country. And their initial response would definitely be to treat the nearest farang as partly responsible for this.....and treat you casually or offhandedly.....until you show them you're a cool or sanook guy, anyway.

Good on you for buying the ventolin for that girl. I had a similar experience of quick but very appropriate karma like that once.....it's reassuring, yes ?

Edited March 4, 2010 by Latindancer

[SeanMoran]

Sean , back to your original point though.....yes, I'm sure that many Thais feel rather keenly the "McDonaldisation" of their country. And their initial response would definitely be to treat the nearest farang as partly responsible for this.....and treat you casually or offhandedly.....until you show them you're a cool or sanook guy, anyway.

Good on you for buying the ventolin for that girl. I had a similar experience of quick but very appropriate karma like that once.....it's reassuring, yes ?

McDonaldisation is a fantastic way to put it. I've used a certain image I stole off the web of a Ronald MacDonald statue doing the wai before to explain this concept, and you put it into words perfectly. I am not Thai born and yet I feel a sadness as this wonderful culture is driven to extinction by people just like me. There's a lot of cognitive dissonance going on in my head especially when I stick to the lite beer.

It really was a great and unexpected surprise today, that the only pharmacist I know who still sells me my life-saving pred' OTC (as long as I keep him informed of the honest dosage, which is now down to only 1x5mg tablet per day and not far off 2.5mg), actually GAVE me a second ventolin inhaler out of his own good heart. I think back to the little bit of kindness I showed Pueng by buying her daughter Poi a spare inhaler, (as you can imagine, a large part of this was to impress Pueng with my kindness, and it was more than just a good deed for a fellow asthmatic, but I digress), and having that goodness returned even in the token it was, gives me hope to seize the day tomorrow and keep on loving Thailand.

I've just been too long in the big city here.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

has westernization been defined here?

Are universities? medical care? air conditioning? transportation? shopping centers?, cell phones? TV? internet? food safety?

examples of westernization

or is it only being used as the negatives of the modern world like fast food?, pollution?, land development?

[ozzieovaseas]

has westernization been defined here?

Are universities? medical care? air conditioning? transportation? shopping centers?, cell phones? TV? internet? food safety?

examples of westernization

or is it only being used as the negatives of the modern world like fast food?, pollution?, land development?

well i think they call it progress dont they??

and where do they get that idea from?

Anyway from what Sean (and others) have said, there are a few of us that appreciate Thailands relatively slow mooving (so called) progress. I know thats one of the reasons why i cant wait to get back to LOS anyway.

I think Seans experience with buying the puffer for the girl and the incident where he was helped out by the guy who delivered the food to his room when he was sick (had the same happen to me also) highlights how a little humanity can go a long way, even if it does involve us farangs providing the tip

In any case such things would rarely happen in farangland..at any price

[Latindancer]

Does it in fact matter how we define Westernisation ? The bad unfortunately comes with the good. The problem is how to minimise the bad, or at least bring people to conscious awareness that their culture is going downhill in some ways. I had to explain to my girlfriend how greed is creeping into Thai culture but it is the absolute antithesis of Buddhism. ( Greed = craving, which causes suffering )

[StreetCowboy]

To say that because the elevator is a western invention, grumpy people in elevators were caused by the western world, is one of the most far reaching attempts to blame the west for something I have ever heard. ....

Not at all. I am referring to the cross-cultural issues, where westernisation might cause confusion and frustration to people who's whose parents never taught them how to press the button on an elevator, and then stand aside until the door opens, and anyone in that elevator who is getting out leaves, before barging in.

It's the same with trains at stations, and even the automatic doors at the 711 store, but we seem to have graduated to the KFC counter most of all in this thread.

<ed: silly spelling error>

Good job, mate. Well spotted. To be commended. I wish more people were so careful. Sets you apart from the half-wits and johnny-foreigners.

SC

[SeanMoran]

has westernization been defined here?

Are universities? medical care? air conditioning? transportation? shopping centers?, cell phones? TV? internet? food safety?

examples of westernization

or is it only being used as the negatives of the modern world like fast food?, pollution?, land development?

It's certainly a subjective concept, my own personal opinion with regards this thread being those western cultural changes, that override a part of the essential Thai culture, such as multi-storey Tesco Lotus department stores, such as KFC and Macca's, and those elements of westernised culture. It's a very subjective concept, and I am not qualified to answer that question perfectly for I am not Thai, so I only notice these similarities with my home country, and have the choice to like them or not, and see them through foreign eyes, so I don't get upset over it, but maybe some people do.

[StreetCowboy]

Reading some of the posts about being ignored reminded me of a recent experience.

I waited patiently for several minutes at a phone shop to buy a phone card, while the serving staff carried on whatever they were doing - playing solitaire, gossiping with their mates...

I got fed up, stormed off determined to take my valuable business elsewhere, and set off round all the other shops in the mall. "No, we don't sell phone cards, go to the phone shop in the corner".

So I went back, and said "Excuse me, I'd like to buy something', transaction done in 30 seconds, and no reason to get upset or grumpy. There's nothing like politely drawing attention to yourself for getting service. If serving staff are ignoring you, its probably because they haven't noticed you, or don't realise that you are waiting to get served. Presumably their mental process goes "I wonder what he's doing? Well, when he wants served, he'll ask. Strange that he doesn't seem to be doing anything, but ours is not to reason why..."

SC

[StreetCowboy]

has westernization been defined here?

Are universities? medical care? air conditioning? transportation? shopping centers?, cell phones? TV? internet? food safety?

examples of westernization

or is it only being used as the negatives of the modern world like fast food?, pollution?, land development?

It's certainly a subjective concept, my own personal opinion with regards this thread being those western cultural changes, that override a part of the essential Thai culture, such as multi-storey Tesco Lotus department stores, such as KFC and Macca's, and those elements of westernised culture. It's a very subjective concept, and I am not qualified to answer that question perfectly for I am not Thai, so I only notice these similarities with my home country, and have the choice to like them or not, and see them through foreign eyes, so I don't get upset over it, but maybe some people do.

I don't think that it is fair to blame tourists and expats for these elements of westerisation - the reason that the UK has Tesco etc. is because they provide high quality produce much cheaper and more conveniently than mom-and-pop stores. Why would anyone deliberately deny such efficiency and choice to the Thai people?

The vast majority of customers in McDonalds, KFC et al are Thai. Presumably because they like the food. I would no more deny them that right than I would close down all the Thai restaurants in the UK, or prevent Italians from opening chip shops or Ice creameries. Its not just a case of Thailand westernising, its Thailand progressing and catching up with the West going down the same route, so that one day average Thais may hope to retire to the Scottish Highlands for the fishing and the long summer days, just as some of us aspire to retire to Thailand. Not only is everywhere becoming the same, everywhere is also becoming more varied. When I was young, in my home town, there were chip shops. Now, we have two or three Chinese restaurants of various types, a curry restaurant, a pizza shop. I can eat round the world in my own little high street. I don't feel that as a threat to my culture.

SC

[StreetCowboy]

Does it in fact matter how we define Westernisation ? The bad unfortunately comes with the good. The problem is how to minimise the bad, or at least bring people to conscious awareness that their culture is going downhill in some ways. I had to explain to my girlfriend how greed is creeping into Thai culture but it is the absolute antithesis of Buddhism. ( Greed = craving, which causes suffering )

I didn't realise that greed was a Western characteristic. Buddhism and Christianity (which I would take as the equivalent element of Western culture) both emphasise poverty as in some way spiritually rewarding. Cynics would say that was for the benefit of the Abbots, who in many cases seem to take too literally the obligation to shoulder the burden of our sins...

A more fair assessment of the problem might be that when people integrate any foreign culture with their own, they tend to start with the most superficially appealing and easily adopted. How many newcomers to Asia adopt, as their first element of the local culture, filial piety?

SC

[SeanMoran]

Reading some of the posts about being ignored reminded me of a recent experience.

I waited patiently for several minutes at a phone shop to buy a phone card, while the serving staff carried on whatever they were doing - playing solitaire, gossiping with their mates...

I got fed up, stormed off determined to take my valuable business elsewhere, and set off round all the other shops in the mall. "No, we don't sell phone cards, go to the phone shop in the corner".

So I went back, and said "Excuse me, I'd like to buy something', transaction done in 30 seconds, and no reason to get upset or grumpy. There's nothing like politely drawing attention to yourself for getting service. If serving staff are ignoring you, its probably because they haven't noticed you, or don't realise that you are waiting to get served. Presumably their mental process goes "I wonder what he's doing? Well, when he wants served, he'll ask. Strange that he doesn't seem to be doing anything, but ours is not to reason why..."

SC

Then there was the girl behind the counter at KFC Laem Tong in Rayong who I remember from 2549 (2006) and she was still working there on December 3rd this LAST year, and when I get to the front of the queue, she looks at me silently, her eyes start to water, and before I can point to the picture of the burger gai with chips and potato/gravy on the menu, she turns and runs out the back to the kitchen for linguistic help that she never needed in the first place, so I once again walk across the mall to MacDonalds where the staff seem much friendlier.

Thast one defies my idea about the part-time staff not having the experience to cope with western fast food procedures though, as the same girl has been there three years, so you'd think she would have gotten over the farang syndrome by now.

Edited March 4, 2010 by SeanMoran

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Does it in fact matter how we define Westernisation ? The bad unfortunately comes with the good. The problem is how to minimise the bad, or at least bring people to conscious awareness that their culture is going downhill in some ways. I had to explain to my girlfriend how greed is creeping into Thai culture but it is the absolute antithesis of Buddhism. ( Greed = craving, which causes suffering )

yes because its hard to conclude that something is good, bad or indifferent if you don't know what "it" is in the first place.

[SeanMoran]

Does it in fact matter how we define Westernisation ? The bad unfortunately comes with the good. The problem is how to minimise the bad, or at least bring people to conscious awareness that their culture is going downhill in some ways. I had to explain to my girlfriend how greed is creeping into Thai culture but it is the absolute antithesis of Buddhism. ( Greed = craving, which causes suffering )

yes because its hard to conclude that something is good, bad or indifferent if you don't know what "it" is in the first place.

Okay, so how do you feel now? Is it clear?

[Richb2004v2]

has westernization been defined here?

Are universities? medical care? air conditioning? transportation? shopping centers?, cell phones? TV? internet? food safety?

examples of westernization

or is it only being used as the negatives of the modern world like fast food?, pollution?, land development?

It's certainly a subjective concept, my own personal opinion with regards this thread being those western cultural changes, that override a part of the essential Thai culture, such as multi-storey Tesco Lotus department stores, such as KFC and Macca's, and those elements of westernised culture. It's a very subjective concept, and I am not qualified to answer that question perfectly for I am not Thai, so I only notice these similarities with my home country, and have the choice to like them or not, and see them through foreign eyes, so I don't get upset over it, but maybe some people do.

I don't think that it is fair to blame tourists and expats for these elements of westerisation - the reason that the UK has Tesco etc. is because they provide high quality produce much cheaper and more conveniently than mom-and-pop stores. Why would anyone deliberately deny such efficiency and choice to the Thai people?

The vast majority of customers in McDonalds, KFC et al are Thai. Presumably because they like the food. I would no more deny them that right than I would close down all the Thai restaurants in the UK, or prevent Italians from opening chip shops or Ice creameries. Its not just a case of Thailand westernising, its Thailand progressing and catching up with the West going down the same route, so that one day average Thais may hope to retire to the Scottish Highlands for the fishing and the long summer days, just as some of us aspire to retire to Thailand. Not only is everywhere becoming the same, everywhere is also becoming more varied. When I was young, in my home town, there were chip shops. Now, we have two or three Chinese restaurants of various types, a curry restaurant, a pizza shop. I can eat round the world in my own little high street. I don't feel that as a threat to my culture.

SC

Exactly.

The west has all those things because they are popular and people use them. Why should Thailand be denied the same facility's? I'm sure the complaining ferang who would like, in theory, to see nothing but wooden stilted houses and buffalo pulling carts still use the mobile phone shops, the cinemas and the McDonalds, but at the same time wail about how terrible it all is.

[SeanMoran]

has westernization been defined here?

Are universities? medical care? air conditioning? transportation? shopping centers?, cell phones? TV? internet? food safety?

examples of westernization

or is it only being used as the negatives of the modern world like fast food?, pollution?, land development?

It's certainly a subjective concept, my own personal opinion with regards this thread being those western cultural changes, that override a part of the essential Thai culture, such as multi-storey Tesco Lotus department stores, such as KFC and Macca's, and those elements of westernised culture. It's a very subjective concept, and I am not qualified to answer that question perfectly for I am not Thai, so I only notice these similarities with my home country, and have the choice to like them or not, and see them through foreign eyes, so I don't get upset over it, but maybe some people do.

I don't think that it is fair to blame tourists and expats for these elements of westerisation - the reason that the UK has Tesco etc. is because they provide high quality produce much cheaper and more conveniently than mom-and-pop stores. Why would anyone deliberately deny such efficiency and choice to the Thai people?

The vast majority of customers in McDonalds, KFC et al are Thai. Presumably because they like the food. I would no more deny them that right than I would close down all the Thai restaurants in the UK, or prevent Italians from opening chip shops or Ice creameries. Its not just a case of Thailand westernising, its Thailand progressing and catching up with the West going down the same route, so that one day average Thais may hope to retire to the Scottish Highlands for the fishing and the long summer days, just as some of us aspire to retire to Thailand. Not only is everywhere becoming the same, everywhere is also becoming more varied. When I was young, in my home town, there were chip shops. Now, we have two or three Chinese restaurants of various types, a curry restaurant, a pizza shop. I can eat round the world in my own little high street. I don't feel that as a threat to my culture.

SC

Exactly.

The west has all those things because they are popular and people use them. Why should Thailand be denied the same facility's? I'm sure the complaining ferang who would like, in theory, to see nothing but wooden stilted houses and buffalo pulling carts still use the mobile phone shops, the cinemas and the McDonalds, but at the same time wail about how terrible it all is.

This thread is not about the bad attitudes of farang towards westernisation, but about the subliminal bad attitudes of Thais towards unwanted westernisation.

Goodnight on that note and see you tomorrow.

[Richb2004v2]

I don't think it is anything like a subliminal bad attitude. I think it is the general attitude of Thais towards that type of work, together with maybe a little hesitance on their part to deal with ferang due to the language barrier. We get poor service in most fast food places and steak houses we use. I think it is simply because they have no idea how things are supposed to be organized efficiently, and also have no idea about the food they are serving.

[PeaceBlondie]

I live in a Chinese village founded by settlers from Yunnan over 200 years ago, Two natives speak English. I 'm down to 5 mispronounced words of central Thai. People are friendly here. The mechanic services our bikes well. Local builders built our home with no input from me. The waiters at the Thai restaurant off Niemanheiman order my Thai food fine. I can order fuel. Why is it I do fine without Thai in my village and Thai and Western places?

[neverdie]

I've met Sean briefly and what ever his faults he didn't strike me as the kind of guy to make trouble with Thais, or even be difficult. In fact quite the opposite. He seems more likely to be extra accommodating with them. You only need to read his thread on his motorbike purchase to see that. To me Sean may have been a little ripped off with is bike but he still didn't have a bad word to say about the seller. I could be wrong but I don't see him being anything but courteous in the KFC. Just my opinion.

You met Sean? OMG & here I was all this time thinking he was too good to be true

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

I live in a Chinese village founded by settlers from Yunnan over 200 years ago, Two natives speak English. I 'm down to 5 mispronounced words of central Thai. People are friendly here. The mechanic services our bikes well. Local builders built our home with no input from me. The waiters at the Thai restaurant off Niemanheiman order my Thai food fine. I can order fuel. Why is it I do fine without Thai in my village and Thai and Western places?

for starters your connected to the internet. Probably use a cell phone. eat "thai" fruits and vegetables most of which were introduced by western or colonial powers. Use electricity. Avail yourself of western medicine like antibiotics from time to time. Use a bank atm. Need I drone on?

But I guess back to my question of a few posts back.

Can anybody define what 'westernization' is?

Peaceblondie is probably correct that his existence is not "westernized" but its also likely his definition of westernized is not the same as others in this thread. Not mine anyway because I consider western products and technologies introduced and adopted by Thailand to be a significant part of westernization.

Does anyone want to take a stab at what Westernization is?

let me get the ball rolling

Westernization is a process whereby societies come under or adopt the Western culture in such matters as industry, technology, law, politics, economics, lifestyle, diet, language, religion, philosophy, values

[PeaceBlondie]

Thailand was being Westernized by King Chulalongkorn.

[Gaccha]

let me get the ball rolling

Westernization is a process whereby societies come under or adopt the Western culture in such matters as industry, technology, law, politics, economics, lifestyle, diet, language, religion, philosophy, values

Let me restart the ball. I don't think we should claim this force of change is 'western culture'. Let's call it an extraordinary control of the human body to maximise its value.

Reconceptualising the primary resource of the state as the human is crucial in this endeavour. This biopolitical state through the use of biopower aims to remake all as docile, productive subjects. Any signs of heading off the track are immediately abnormalised by an incredible network of power.

For example, any suggestions of not feeling happy, are medicalised, the person is then placed into a system to 'recover' and become a docile subject again. This socio-normative regime is what has spread from the West, and in its modern form, we can call it neo-liberalism or, as I prefer, biocapture.

The state becomes more involved in all lives steadily progressing through nanny state to bully state. The UK and the USA are the Bully State par excellence. The State trusts the subject to do nothing, all is placed in the hands of the state with the goal of productivity. The best expression of this in Asia is the paranoid hyper-active city-state of Singapore.

Edited March 5, 2010 by Gaccha

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

'Westernization' by most definitions encompasses far more than just western culture values. Just what is culture anyway? Is modern science part of culture?

Depending on how a person defines westernization then Thailand has been westernizing for a long time. I would say a few hundred years at a minimum.

Gaccha you seem to be implying westernization or progression is due to state/govt influence. Doesn't a lot of change occur despite the determined efforts of govts? Take social internet media in China or Iran for example.

Could the world just be progressing toward solutions that tend to work for its populations rather than being infected by greedy foreign cultures/states? Why has Thailand for example westernized it's practice of farming with fertilizer, pesticide, optimized crop genetics, powered plows etc? Was that forced on them or did they adopt it so they could feed their people?

Out of curiousity did the Thai attitude go sour in the last 5 years? 15? 25? 50 years? When was the tipping point?

I am surprised nobody has trotted out the "Globalization Pony"

'Resistance is futile. You will be asimmilated' New World Order !

Edited March 5, 2010 by CobraSnakeNecktie

[StreetCowboy]

Sorry, Sean, this seems to have drifted off topic a little bit.

To paraphrase Sean's original question:

1) Do we believe that we receive poorer service from Thai staff when they work in a western (i.e. non-traditional) environment?

Sean didn't say it, but I inferred particularly a greater degree of discrimination against non-Thais.

2) Or do we believe the contrary hypothesis, that Sean's poor service was due to him being grumpy, poorly, or hung over?

3) Actually, Sean also proposed another alternative, that it was weekend part-time staff (thinking back twenty odd years to my youth, that would make them students, who would be grumpy, poorly or hung over).

I'll go with 3. Bloody students. Compounded by 2) Sean's unreasonable expectation that service in a fast food restaurant should be prompt, polite and efficient regardless of where it is, and the increased sensitivity to small time delays when the target time for service is only 60 seconds.

SC

[phetaroi]

It's certainly a subjective concept, my own personal opinion with regards this thread being those western cultural changes, that override a part of the essential Thai culture, such as multi-storey Tesco Lotus department stores, such as KFC and Macca's, and those elements of westernised culture. It's a very subjective concept, and I am not qualified to answer that question perfectly for ...

Ah, so you are coming at this discussion from the standpoint of wanting Thailand to be sort of like a museum of life in the past in old Siam.

After all, why would a Thai person want a department store when they can wander through countless stalls in the heat of the old city.

Why would they want a more modern supermarket with air conditioning and refrigeration when they could instead go to an old wet market where meat is hanging from large hooks, covered with flies, and with no refrigeration and no sanitary standards.

That sort of thing?

[phetaroi]

Sorry, Sean, this seems to have drifted off topic a little bit.

To paraphrase Sean's original question:

1) Do we believe that we receive poorer service from Thai staff when they work in a western (i.e. non-traditional) environment?

Sean didn't say it, but I inferred particularly a greater degree of discrimination against non-Thais.

2) Or do we believe the contrary hypothesis, that Sean's poor service was due to him being grumpy, poorly, or hung over?

3) Actually, Sean also proposed another alternative, that it was weekend part-time staff (thinking back twenty odd years to my youth, that would make them students, who would be grumpy, poorly or hung over).

Some thoughts...

1) I don't find fast food workers to be much different here than back home. I always used to laugh at the electronic sign at the cash register at McDonalds in my community back in Virginia that would tell you in how many seconds you were served...their definition of "being served" was from when you they pressed the first key of your order to when you were handed your food. The fact that you stood in line for 12 minutes while several registers were empty or the cashiers were chatting away seemed to have escaped them as part of the time it took to be served.

2) I don't know if Sean is grumpy, but I do think he's odd (and that's not a crime). I don't know how often he is hung over, but he sure does talk about Chang often.

3) Ah, international culture!