English Programs In Prathom Schools

[Neeranam]

I've taught in many different English programs in Government schools and private so know a bit about it already and what the average teacher, native and Thai, is like.

I believe that they are nearly all run on making money with education secondary.

I have two kids, at different schools. One is in a pure Thai one and the other is an English Program which cost about 20,000 a term more than the Thai one. The end result - English no better AT ALL!

I've decided that she is not going back to such a useless program. She is either going to an international standard school with English ONLY or a normal Thai school, with me teaching her. Also, I'm sending her to Australia every year from next month for a month. I guarantee she'll learn more there in a couple of days than she did all this year in that stupid program

Let's face it, all kids in these programs have to have Thai tutors in all the subjects anyway if they ever want into university.

It's hard to say what I want to without the thread being closed for saying negative things about teaching in this country but basically - what do you think of these English programs, are they a waste of money, and would you send your kids there?

I know the schools and teachers are better than 8-15 years ago when I did it, but that wouldn't be hard. A former butcher teaching matayom 4 Maths, a former scaffolder as the head teacher, and worse....

Also, any advice about the fure education of my kids appreciated - re. International Schools or studying abroad(at what age is best) etc

Edited February 10, 2010 by Neeranam

[SeanMoran]

After having been invited to come to Thailand from Australia specifically to teach English, and then after having experienced the truth of the situation in 2548-49 (2005-06), I believe the whole thing to have become a total farce, where parents pay good money and bargirls learn better English than their kids learn at government schools.

Go with Skype, and find an online school in the Philippines, or on-site learning in South Africa, because Australian English is almost as bad as Hollywood English by now. Don't waste your money on a dying industry here, nor in Australia.

[Neeranam]

After having been invited to come to Thailand from Australia specifically to teach English, and then after having experienced the truth of the situation in 2548-49 (2005-06), I believe the whole thing to have become a total farce, where parents pay good money and bargirls learn better English than their kids learn at government schools.

Go with Skype, and find an online school in the Philippines, or on-site learning in South Africa, because Australian English is almost as bad as Hollywood English by now. Don't waste your money on a dying industry here, nor in Australia.

Regarding your other recent posts on other threads, I'm afraid I can't take you seriously Sean but thanks for the suggestion - would you say South Africa is better than Scotland?

[PeaceBlondie]

There are a few fairly good English programs out there. But they are few and far between, and they are managed by Thai's who don't know a hod carrier from a teacher.

[Neeranam]

There are a few fairly good English programs out there. But they are few and far between, and they are managed by Thai's who don't know a hod carrier from a teacher.

It's a shame. PB, I know you have kids and know a lot about teaching in Thailand - if you had young kids here where would you put them?

[SeanMoran]

After having been invited to come to Thailand from Australia specifically to teach English, and then after having experienced the truth of the situation in 2548-49 (2005-06), I believe the whole thing to have become a total farce, where parents pay good money and bargirls learn better English than their kids learn at government schools.

Go with Skype, and find an online school in the Philippines, or on-site learning in South Africa, because Australian English is almost as bad as Hollywood English by now. Don't waste your money on a dying industry here, nor in Australia.

Regarding your other recent posts on other threads, I'm afraid I can't take you seriously Sean but thanks for the suggestion - would you say South Africa is better than Scotland?

The first rule about Thailand is to never take ANYTHING seriously. You won't be disappointed.

Scots vs. RSA? Depends on whether you mean speaking or writing. With speaking, I'd go with RSA.

[Neeranam]

With speaking, I'd go with RSA.

really - I worked with some English teachers from there and couldn't understand them most of the time - very strong accent.

[JiveTalker]

There are some pretty reasonable EPs out there, but you are probably limited to places like BKK, Phuket or Chiang Mai. They are all run for profit though...

The difference in English between an average student in a good EP and an average student on a non EP is really quite noticeable.

[culicine]

There are some pretty reasonable EPs out there, but you are probably limited to places like BKK, Phuket or Chiang Mai. They are all run for profit though...

The difference in English between an average student in a good EP and an average student on a non EP is really quite noticeable.

Yes the gap is very significant. In my EPO, the english teacher did Animal Farm and 1984 with the upper grades. Pretty impressive. 1984 was suitable for the more able m5/m6 students. One of out m3's came 11th out of over 20000 students in an english proficiency test. She may move on to another school for m4. So there are some pretty good students in EP's; and some lousy ones ofcourse! My son was in the Thai program for kindy and will go into out Thai program - not the EP. That's not a slight on our EP, but more a personal decision.

As for EP's being run for profit - many schools are, not just EP's! I'm sure the big international schools and 'famous' Thai schools are not run as charities. The difference would be weighing the fees against the quality of the teachers and resourses available. Assessing the teacher's is difficult, though the range and quality of resources should be evident - however you want to see the resources being used - are the computers and library being put to good use??

Also consider the existence of extra curricular activities. I started to run an advanced maths club for my m4's this year - the students who consistently score highly in their exams. I hand picked them:)

[PeaceBlondie]

There are a few fairly good English programs out there. But they are few and far between, and they are managed by Thai's who don't know a hod carrier from a teacher.

It's a shame. PB, I know you have kids and know a lot about teaching in Thailand - if you had young kids here where would you put them?

I would only consider an international school. Or never bring them here or have kids here.

[BlackArtemis]

There are a few fairly good English programs out there. But they are few and far between, and they are managed by Thai's who don't know a hod carrier from a teacher.

It's a shame. PB, I know you have kids and know a lot about teaching in Thailand - if you had young kids here where would you put them?

I would only consider an international school. Or never bring them here or have kids here.

I agree with this. For Thai nationals there are plenty of decent EP, and now NP programs. However you are never going to meet western standards, you will have to sacrifice somewhere.

[Scott]

This site uses a lot of acronyms. EP-English Program. What is a NP?

[Neeranam]

There are a few fairly good English programs out there. But they are few and far between, and they are managed by Thai's who don't know a hod carrier from a teacher.

It's a shame. PB, I know you have kids and know a lot about teaching in Thailand - if you had young kids here where would you put them?

I would only consider an international school. Or never bring them here or have kids here.

I don't mean your American kids. Do you mean if you moved here and married a Thai woman, you wouldn't have kids because of the schools?

I've experienced international students who have forgotten their Thai roots, which is a shame.

[mizzi39]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying OP. Yes, all EP's are for profit. Our EP is no different. I teach M1-3 and the fee is 35,000 baht per term plus fees. The students that excel (maybe 25%) tend to excel in all of their courses. We do not use translators in the classroom, and the students are required to take all of their courses in English. There is a debate as to whether or not this approach is effective.

Many students whose parents insist that their child be placed in an EP do so for the wrong reasons , (which may be best saved for another thread). Like any business the goal is to satisfy the customer. This is where the "no fail" policy comes into play. No parent is going to "invest" in an EP if "the teacher" is failing their child. This simply is not good for business.

Young children naturally pick up a language through acquisition. Learning a second language gets harder as the child gets older, and this is so true foe adults who struggle to learn a second language. I have Luk Krueng students who grew up in a predominately Thai household with one English speaking parent, and these students, although more advanced than most of their Thai classmates, still struggle.

I have a friend who is Luk Krueng. He lived in Thailand until he was 8 years old, and then moved with his family to the US and remained there for the next 16 years, before returning. He grew up with 6 sisters, and both English and Thai were spoke in his household. He told me that by the time he left Thailand and moved to the States he was obviously already fluent in Thai, and had a OK command of English. Now, being immersed in English, it took him no time to pick up the language. He now works as a food and beverage manager at a high end hotel in Bangkok. He has a mid western English accent when speaking English and his Thai is flawless, so he is in high demand, especially in the hotel industry.

My wife and I have a choice to make in the next few years when our son gets older. Our plan is to move to the states, (indefinitely, but not permanently) so our son can learn English through immersion, since I have very little faith as to the effectiveness of these programs.

Edited February 13, 2010 by mizzi39

[PeaceBlondie]

There are a few fairly good English programs out there. But they are few and far between, and they are managed by Thai's who don't know a hod carrier from a teacher.

It's a shame. PB, I know you have kids and know a lot about teaching in Thailand - if you had young kids here where would you put them?

I would only consider an international school. Or never bring them here or have kids here.

I don't mean your American kids. Do you mean if you moved here and married a Thai woman, you wouldn't have kids because of the schools?

I've experienced international students who have forgotten their Thai roots, which is a shame.

I know an American married to a Thai for over 16 years, all of it in Thailand. No kids - and the stated reason is that the social system and educational system stinks.

[BlackArtemis]

This site uses a lot of acronyms. EP-English Program. What is a NP?

National Program or Native program. I know Dara Academy just started this in Chiang Mai.

All classes in English except for Thai Language and culture class.

My niece begins next semester, I am interested to see what happens.

As for if I married a girl with a child already? It depends on quite a few factors.

The first is age, a very young kid would be easy to place into an international school and set them down a good path.

If they were older I would most likely put them in the best Thai program I could and do private tutoring in English and English camps.

If they were already struggling in Thai subjects, I would get them private tutoring in those subjects first. If they were able to catch up I would begin tutoring in English, if not continue tutoring in Thai.

No matter the circumstance I would try to provide the best route for their success.

If I were young and married in Thailand. which I am/was I would settle for nothing less than an international school.

I have returned to the US to obtain a BS ED so that I can return and make enough money (or teach at one of these schools and have a much lower tuition) so my future kids have the best chance they can have. I have begun looking at maters programs so I have even more options.

As for losing identity. Most cases the parents are to blame. I know of half kids and full blooded Thais who have gone to international programs and speak central and northern Thai perfectly. But I know of parents who purposly do not teach their kids Northern Dialect or don't put a strong emphasis on Thai because of stupid reasons like "it isn't hi-so".

over here in the US it's horrible, I have run into many Thai kids here who can barely speak Thai, because their parents were to lazy to put in the time.

[culicine]

Don;t over rate western education. I've had M3 EP students returning from studies (for a year) in the US and elsewhere, saying how "easy" the work was. This is to quote their own words. These are students from our EP's. They have had western teachers for 9-10 years, so really know little of the rote learning methods used in regular schools here. The main drawback of EP's as I see it is that they must follow the Thai curriculum, hence they (usually) have not covered eough work to pass western standardised exams (I'm talking about IB/A-levels, not the US SAT which is M3/M4 level here). I wanted to see if one of my best M4 students could do an A-level exam. I gave him one and he returned it the next day - completed and correct, bar the questions pertaining to topics he had not studied yet. I think thats impressive for an EP student; not many international school students in grade 10 could do that..

[pulpfiction]

As for losing identity. Most cases the parents are to blame. I know of half kids and full blooded Thais who have gone to international programs and speak central and northern Thai perfectly. But I know of parents who purposly do not teach their kids Northern Dialect or don't put a strong emphasis on Thai because of stupid reasons like "it isn't hi-so".

over here in the US it's horrible, I have run into many Thai kids here who can barely speak Thai, because their parents were to lazy to put in the time.

This is my major concern. My wife is Thai but I hear all these stories about the Luk krungs that can't read or write Thai well or even speak properly after a full education at a Bangkok Pattana or ISB or NIST etc. My kids are young now and are in an int'l school. I really want to make sure they don't lose their Thai. We have a strict program at home where I speak only English to the kids and my wife speaks only Thai. So far that works perfectly and they are fully bilingual and follow our home language rules and respond to each of us in the appropriate language.

I wonder if there are any "tricks" to ensure they fully pick up Thai in conjunction with their "perfect" int'l school English???

p.s. did the OP steal my avatar???

[thunder30101]

I let my student take his test home and do it and he did quite well lol I wonder why ? Sorry but the us SAT tests are way above M3-M4 levels here, I have thai universitiy students that complain how hard it is.

[culicine]

I let my student take his test home and do it and he did quite well lol I wonder why ? Sorry but the us SAT tests are way above M3-M4 levels here, I have thai universitiy students that complain how hard it is.

They probably struggle with the english and the fact that the questions are not straight forward. I'm talking about the mathematics component (of which the topics are lower secondary level, by and large), not the english component of the test, which I acknowledge is difficult due to the vocabulary and comprehesion skills needed.

[culicine]

I let my student take his test home and do it and he did quite well lol I wonder why ?

I could have given it to him as a test with the same result..this isn't your average student. His class mates would have struggled with it. Hi just won our recent maths competition, getting a score more than twice the second place getter from m5.

[culicine]

As for losing identity. Most cases the parents are to blame. I know of half kids and full blooded Thais who have gone to international programs and speak central and northern Thai perfectly. But I know of parents who purposly do not teach their kids Northern Dialect or don't put a strong emphasis on Thai because of stupid reasons like "it isn't hi-so".

over here in the US it's horrible, I have run into many Thai kids here who can barely speak Thai, because their parents were to lazy to put in the time.

This is my major concern. My wife is Thai but I hear all these stories about the Luk krungs that can't read or write Thai well or even speak properly after a full education at a Bangkok Pattana or ISB or NIST etc. My kids are young now and are in an int'l school. I really want to make sure they don't lose their Thai. We have a strict program at home where I speak only English to the kids and my wife speaks only Thai. So far that works perfectly and they are fully bilingual and follow our home language rules and respond to each of us in the appropriate language.

I wonder if there are any "tricks" to ensure they fully pick up Thai in conjunction with their "perfect" int'l school English???

p.s. did the OP steal my avatar???

Luk kreung children shuld speak fluently in their mother tongue (following your wife's Thai). Their english should be pretty good too (following you and theirv Inter school studies). What could suffer will be their Thai reading and writing ability if they are in an International school. They simply won't get enough practice at it, especially if they start at such a school from a very young age. My son (6 yrs old) is in a Thai school - fluent in Thai, quite good in english but obviously nowhere near his ability in Thai. If you plan to move back to the West anytime soon, they their ability in Thai won't matter as much as becoming fluent in english. If you remain here (as I plan to do), then their Thai language skills take greater importance. I wouldn;t worry too much - they can become nearly fluent in both with hard work over a long enough period.

Edited February 14, 2010 by culicine

[BlackArtemis]

There is no overating Western Education. But you must realize the problem with American Education is the fact that is is very unequal. Most Thais end up in an urban setting, where the worst schools usually are. There are plenty of fantastic public schools in America, but they exist in the suburbs and affluent communities.

[Scott]

I think it's difficult to compare the educational systems in western countries with Thailand. I don't know about other schools, but where I work, which is a bilingual program, the students have 9 periods of constant study. A 10 period day with a lunch break and 2 short breaks during the day.

In addition to no time to do homework during the day, the students basically spend most of the time sitting and listening. Most western countries don't have such a rigorous day. Our students have to take, among other things, such classes as Calligraphy. When you add rote learning to this equation, you have a difficult and not particularly stimulating learning environment.

Students aren't really responsible for their learning; teachers are. They get little chance to specialize and take subjects that they are interested in. With a few exceptions in the upper Mathyom level, they are all stuck doing the same thing, like it or not.

Western education allows for a lot less rote learning, it allows for learning how to learn, how to think, solve problems and focus on an area of interest.

Regarding putting children in an English program, it depends on what you want for your children and what their capabilities are. If your children will be attending school overseas, then they definitely need an EP, bilingual or international program. If you don't know, they should be in something like a bilingual program. If your children will remain in Thailand forever with little need for a high-level of English, then a Thai program is satisfactory.

Being able to learn in a language is different than being able to understand a language. It's more complex than that. For a good example, ask someone to explain Buddhism to you in English. Even people with a very good knowledge of English will have trouble with this.

[otherstuff1957]

A lot of people forget that education begins at home. In a bilingual household, each parent should speak to their children ONLY in their native tongue. Furthermore, they should speak naturally, not in 'pigeon'. In addition, books, maps, etc... should be freely available to the children from and early age. When the kids have questions that the parents cannot or don't have time to answer, they should get in the habit of looking them up.

Quite frankly, almost any school can give a student a fairly good education, provided the student has the right attitude and is prepared to take advantage of the resources available to them.

[bow]

I know of a Thai school where some of the kids study English for 5 lessons per week, and other kids study in English for 13 lessons per week.

The 13 lesson students are better than the 5 lesson students, but not as much better as one would hope and expect.

No 13 lesson student would be able to walk into an ordinary British school and do well.

Edited February 19, 2010 by bow

[ThaiRich]

I think it's best to remember to compare apples to apples. Take a student from a typical EP program in an average government school and compare him/her with a non EP student in an average government school. The student from the EP program will probably not be able to have any indepth coversations or great reading comprehension skills. But, you will find that their English is more advanced than the student that is not in an EP program. So in a case like this the EP program is a success. One of the most basic rules of learning a foreign language is to use it. Bear in mind that the typical Thai student studies English EP/or not. Goes home, watches Thai TV, speaks Thai to friends and family and reads a Thai cartoon book. Goes to school and opens the English book that was closed at the end of yesterdays class and hasn't been opened since. So before one goes on blaming the English teacher that used to be a butcher or the head of the Enlish department that had another career before teaching as the reason for the childrens lack of English, consider the enviroment.

As with learning anything. What is taught at school needs to be continued at home.

[BlackArtemis]

Exactly, the children who excelled in my classrooms were the children of parents who spoke English as well and took interest in what their child was doing in school.

[bow]

An example.

My daughter reads English better than Thai.

Why ? I read English cartoon books with her. My Thai wife plays with her a lot, but does not like to read with her in a literal sense.

I had to start reading with her in Thai as well, which is not good for several reasons, one that my Thai is certainly not good enough to be able to teach it.

[Neeranam]

An example.

My daughter reads English better than Thai.

Why ? I read English cartoon books with her. My Thai wife plays with her a lot, but does not like to read with her in a literal sense.

I had to start reading with her in Thai as well, which is not good for several reasons, one that my Thai is certainly not good enough to be able to teach it.

I would advise you never to teach her Thai. I can read/write Thai well but would never dream of speaking or reading with her in Thai.