Sinsod Is Making Me Crazy

[hhgz]

"Here is where the nightmare begins....I feel like this is going to end in disaster...."

You're supporting her and her kids, and she wants more. As others have pointed out, now is the time to leave. If you stay, you only have yourself to blame for the problems. Too, your post wanders. First you're wildly upset with sinsod...then you're upset about the date of the wedding. Why do you think it's going to get any better?

[koan]

I just had this vision of an Asian guy standing outside a jewellers in Bond Street explaining to his western girlfriend that it is not his culture to buy an engagement ring.......so he is not!!!!!.........principles you know!!!!!......

That's quite a strong stereotype image. What makes you think he would take his girlfriend to the jeweler's in the first place, wouldn't he propose in the style that he knows ?

Secondly, if his girlfriend knew anything about him, she would accept that his culture is different.

Thirdly, just because someone doesn't agree with sinsod doesn't mean they have "western" values. In fact, I don't see the relevance. Sinsod can be discussed on its own merits without having to make such comparisons of "us" versus "them".

[koan]

@sinsod1

"The first time I went to her mothers house (one room actually) she let me sit outside in a suit (I wanted to look proper) for seven hours in the hot sun and never offerred me a glass of water. Nothing."

I understand why but the mistake was not getting advance warning that this would happen. Either you should have asked your girlfriend in advance or she should have warned you. She certainly should have been your "kon dee" and looked after you while you were there.

In that situation I would have toughed it out for 20-30 minutes of frying and then said to my girlfriend that my skin cannot take the sun and heat. I would have suggested that we find some place (neutral) where we can all sit in the cool together. If they didn't want to move, I would then have said that I need to go and find some shade and a cold drink and left for the nearest cafe or 7-11. I would have returned but insisted that sitting in the sun was not an option, either find a practicable solution or get a taxi home.

I'm sorry you think that you can't continue your relationship. It doesn't sound like a good situation to be in.

[britmaveric]

14K + 6K in tips per month for a hairdresser???? :D

Oh my she really has you fooled mate.

Edited February 19, 2010 by britmaveric

[Soutpeel]

14K + 6K in tips per month for a hairdresser????

Oh my she really has you fooled mate.

Depends what sort of hairdresser......cut your hair plus "addtional treatments" ???..

[jdinasia]

Has kids = open and shut

For you, maybe. The OP's girlfriend's family is asking for one and my ex-girlfriend's mother wanted one when we were discussing getting married: she had a son from a relationship when she was a freshman in college - never got married. I'm sure many other families have wanted one when their daughters already had children - so evidently not.

I'll give you that it is probably rare for Thai men to pay in this situation, if they ever pay at all - though I would imagine it is quite common for farang to be asked to pay one in this situation. Call it a scam call it them taking advantage of us call it whatever you want - it is expected by a lot of families and if you don't want to make waves and risk you future wife leaving you, it is probably best just to pay the damned thing if it isn't a lot of money to you.

Standing your ground for the sake of standing your ground is pretty stupid in Thailand, you'll get eaten alive with an approach like that.

I don't get it ... you say it is a cultural thing ... then say that locals wouldn't do it but you seem to think that foreigners SHOULD!

Being asked is just stupid ... giving into being asked is just setting yourself up for more and more abuse, since, obviously if you pay when no Thai man would and when ANY basic knowledge of Thai culture would tell you that you shouldn't, then you are really just a walking ATM.

Being asked to do something because it is traditional, when it is anything BUT traditional is just chutzpah on the part of the asker!

[eurasianthai]

14K + 6K in tips per month for a hairdresser????

Oh my she really has you fooled mate.

Starting salary for an engineer from one of the best university in Thailand is Baht 20,000 to 25,000/month.

Well, I'm sure a hairdresser in Thailand can make more money.

But not 14K on salary and 6K on tips, the reverse actually...

Edited February 19, 2010 by eurasianthai

[GrahamF]

14K + 6K in tips per month for a hairdresser????

Oh my she really has you fooled mate.

Depends what sort of hairdresser......cut your hair plus "addtional treatments" ???..

I hate to say it, but I was thinking the same thing. I'll be optimistic though and figure she is just lying about what she made a hairdresser.

In regards to the posters who feel that the OP should pay the SS as it is part of Thai culture and out of respect it should be given, in this case I question that. It's been pretty well established that in the event the woman has children and/or been married then SS would not be paid. Therefore, by the gf and her mother asking for SS, they are in fact disrespecting their own culture. That being the case, why should the OP have to respect Thai culture when they are not. Some have argued that the OP is a Farang so he should pay, please tell me why?

[britmaveric]

Well I was implying any illicit work, just that she is BS about making 20K as a hairdresser. Sorry I know quite a few hairdressers and lucky if its 10K w/tips.

[tooninthai]

You have created this situation through your own good deeds. Because you can give 20,000 each month you are a rich man so 1000000 will be no problem.

I would tend to agree with that.

Had to chip in on this one, having been there and been through that before and walked away more than once.

I currently give the woman in my life 6k a month. From that she pays 3,400 for her son for school and the rest she tends to buy female necessities for herself and also on her phone. If she has cash left she buys food with it for the two of us. She is also very helpful in many ways from problems with TOT to the car to taking care of all sorts of little things.

At breakfast a couple of days ago at 'mothers house', the topic of marriage came up again. This has been going on since the first month I met her. Mother has now said she is happy for me to pay for 10 people (family) to go to a restaurant and have a meal and for the 'make marry' ceremony itself. No gold. No cash. Nothing else.

This is not a poor family by any means and I get the feeling that it is often the poorer families who tend to push for as much as they can get, from my past relationships.

Took me 3 1/2 years and several previous relationships to find this wonderful woman, so maybe, if the woman in your life will not walk away from this and back you, she is not worth the aggro you are getting now and will get in the future, nor is she worth that much money if you look at their current situation and the way you were, have been and are being treated.

A good friend of mine who helped me sort out initial 'difficulties' with the current woman in my life has an English boyfriend. She lives in a ramshackle place down by the river where you can see the river flowing if you look down through the gaps in the floor. Her English boyfriend of one year keeps asking if he can help her financially and she has refused every time. Her philosophy is that she works for her and daughter (doing 2 jobs) and it is not up to him to support her. She says that if and when he does marry her, then it is up to them to make a better life and not simply him or her.

The mother or your girlfriend does seem to be a money grubbing leech and sees you as the way out of her 1 room place.

You seem to be a good hearted person who deserves better than the family you are considering marrying into. But it is 'up to you' what you do. Best of British with it all.

[473geo]

I just had this vision of an Asian guy standing outside a jewellers in Bond Street explaining to his western girlfriend that it is not his culture to buy an engagement ring.......so he is not!!!!!.........principles you know!!!!!......

That's quite a strong stereotype image. What makes you think he would take his girlfriend to the jeweler's in the first place, wouldn't he propose in the style that he knows ?

Secondly, if his girlfriend knew anything about him, she would accept that his culture is different.

Thirdly, just because someone doesn't agree with sinsod doesn't mean they have "western" values. In fact, I don't see the relevance. Sinsod can be discussed on its own merits without having to make such comparisons of "us" versus "them".

Firstly you appear to make the assumption the man is in control!!...........

[YanTree]

Has kids = open and shut

For you, maybe. The OP's girlfriend's family is asking for one and my ex-girlfriend's mother wanted one when we were discussing getting married: she had a son from a relationship when she was a freshman in college - never got married. I'm sure many other families have wanted one when their daughters already had children - so evidently not.

I'll give you that it is probably rare for Thai men to pay in this situation, if they ever pay at all - though I would imagine it is quite common for farang to be asked to pay one in this situation. Call it a scam call it them taking advantage of us call it whatever you want - it is expected by a lot of families and if you don't want to make waves and risk you future wife leaving you, it is probably best just to pay the damned thing if it isn't a lot of money to you.

Standing your ground for the sake of standing your ground is pretty stupid in Thailand, you'll get eaten alive with an approach like that.

I don't get it ... you say it is a cultural thing ... then say that locals wouldn't do it but you seem to think that foreigners SHOULD!

Being asked is just stupid ... giving into being asked is just setting yourself up for more and more abuse, since, obviously if you pay when no Thai man would and when ANY basic knowledge of Thai culture would tell you that you shouldn't, then you are really just a walking ATM.

Being asked to do something because it is traditional, when it is anything BUT traditional is just chutzpah on the part of the asker!

The reality is a little more subtle and nuanced than what you are saying but essentially you have it right. Whether or not it is following their culture or you perceive them to be taking advantage of you - this woman was talking to her parents about finding a farang husband to support her, them and her children and pay them a sin sod, long before you ever came along. Think what you want about those types of people but if you find yourself in a relationship with one and want to go through with it - then you should pay.

There are about nine different reasons not to have gotten that far in the first place but if you should find yourself in that situation it would be pretty foolish not to pay imo. It would be making a stand for the purpose of making a stand and will only cause problems between you and your wife and between her and her family and between you and her family. If you pay it, everybody is happy and you'll have all the fake smiles you can handle.

And yes, the sin sod will probably be just the tip of the iceberg. You'll be fixing broken motorbikes and hiring vet's for sick buffalo's and sending 'brothers' to college, continue paying your wife a salary and possibly one for her parents too and on and on. If you know all of this and wish to proceed anyway (which many 50 year olds marrying a 25 year old may be willing to do - whether they will admit it on this forum or not) then just pay the damned sin sod. It will make your life much easier and less stressful - as well as your wife's, because she'll be getting lots of family pressure that wont stop.

Edited February 19, 2010 by YanTree

[bigtime]

straight to the point :

it's not directly about money. It never is. It's more about "face". My wife's parents are both deceased, so sin sot was never an issue, but we STILL had issues. Her sister would yap in her ear about how she needed to buy land, build a house, to "impress" the local people. In other words, her sisters wanted to bask in the glow of her "face gain" if we pranced around like 70's pimps spending cash left and right. Even though none of it would have gone to them directly, they were more interested in how good they would look to be associated with the richest person in the village with the nicest house. I think a lot of this applies to parents too, it's a sort of "one upsmanship" where you want to be able to show up your neighbor by proving that your daughter commanded a much higher payment than theirs did. Like western guys comparing benzes. Luckily my wife has no time for playing games and told them to get lost, if she was going to buy a house it sure wasn't going to be in her little village and that we had a plan to invest our money already.

Here's a great compromise I've seen a lot ut in the villages you might want to try : You discuss with mom and dad about a ceremony that gains face for them while not hitting you in the pocket. You go thru the whole ceremony, the money given is like 300k or even more. Everybody oohs and ahhs. Then quietly after the ceremony you take back 250k and they keep their 50k. For a lot of families (especially if the daughter is firm with them) it can be explained as you guys need the money to start your new life together and save for the future, and to save face the parents see it as "forgoing" their money to "help you out". Everybody saves face and you're not out big coin. If youf GF refuses to help with this plan, or says it would never work, then you might want to question her motivations.

[Jimjim]

There really should be no sin sod, in my opinion, for a woman who already has kids. Mother's taking you for a ride as she thinks you are a rich farang come to rescue her dismal life.

[BlackArtemis]

Always remember, you marry the family. This is extensively true in Asian societies. Now you are looking at prospective in laws who already view you more as a secure line of credit more than anything else.

You should sit down alone and think about what matters most to you.

[hhgz]

The worse part is that the OP has taken an independent woman, destroyed her family unit, and has made her dependent.

[way2muchcoffee]

Here's where you made your mistake. Should have given her the money, and then when she didn't pay it back all future tendering of funds are voided.

Yes that's a great strategy. I wouldn't do it with 100k though. There is a list of 'relatives' in the 'no loan' category. I will loan small amounts to folks (1000 or 2000) as a first time borrower. If they don't pay then they are cut off until they do. After 8 years with my wife nobody asks anymore except the very few who have been diligent in returning what they borrowed.

Regarding the sin sod. I think there are not iron clad rules. There are variations. Some women who have previously been married still command a small sin sod. In my wife's village the sin sod for Thai on Thai marriages is typically is about 20k. For some shotgun weddings it is as low as a 2k. Nobody really has much money for this kind of thing. When a woman remarries a sin sod is still given, but it is usually about 5-10k, more if the groom wants to big up his face.

I paid 30k, got it back, and then gave about 20k to the grandmother who raised my wife. Sure I put some diamond family heirlooms on the plate, a land deed, keys to they truck, and a few gold necklaces/bracelets I'd previously given to my wife. Face was maintained all around as the value on the plate was close to 1.5 million. The wedding ceremony and 3-day party was a huge hit in the village. I think I spent about 150-180k all in for the purchased clothes, DJ, monks, makeup, food (2 pigs), beer, whiskey, dancers, musicians, sin sod, etc.

Edited February 20, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[IanForbes]

There is an old saying that still rings true... "A fool and his money are soon parted"

Nobody HAS to do anything. We all make choices after weighing the risks. After we make our CHOICES we have to live with the consequences. Simple as that.

[qwertz]

OP, just tell her you'll pay and don't pay - it's what the Thais do

[whiterussian]

Bloody gold diggin old hag!

Sod the sin, 30K goes a long way in Issan.

Like mother like daughter, be afraid.

The whole shebang cost me 100k, (the whisky bill was rather large)

good luck though, honestly.

Edited February 20, 2010 by whiterussian

[t.s]

The one thing more annoying than a troll is the guy running around screaming "troll!".

Even troll posts can be made informative, a credit to the participants.

One troll caller post deleted.

well spoke indeed. let this too be the case for would-be moderators calling for thread closures.

a troll post by definition encorages discussion, a word commonly found in front of the word forum.

[t.s]

OP, just tell her you'll pay and don't pay - it's what the Thais do

mate, i thought you were dead, wherever have you been?

[a2396]

The worse part is that the OP has taken an independent woman, destroyed her family unit, and has made her dependent.

Yes. See how many women you get here, by refusing to give them any money, now or in the future. This money game is a matter of reasonableness. In the OP's case resonableness went out the window, when he started giving her 20,000 bht. Off the map already, but a fair number of guys give more than that aparently.

[eljeque]

As one girl whom I know says "blood is heavier than water".

Yes, that is what she says.

So, very simply, if your to-be-wife cannot tell her mother off now, she never will, and the 200,000 will be gone. The mother will then tell her daughter to get another 100,000 for something else, and then there will be something else. It will not end.

SinSod is only a deposit, a down payment. Wait until the monthly payments and the maintenance start rolling in.

The mother does not care about her daughter. She cares about getting every last cent that she can from you, and when you stop paying, she will push her daughter with guilt trips, to replace you. And, I am sorry to say, she will. She is showing that she will not stand up to her mother.

I know three sisters. One of them will do anything to give and give to her mother. Astupid and weak girl.

The other two tell their mother and brother off.

Find a woman like the later two.

Edited February 21, 2010 by eljeque

[BlackArtemis]

Even better, find a girl with a family who doesn't give a shit about your money and only that their daughter is happy.

[hhgz]

"I agree her having kids is a reason why there should be no sin sod but he said she was unmarried so it is not open and shut."

That's right: illegitimate children and her previous lifestyle have no bearing...

As for ending the relationship, try this: do not give her any more money. Voila!

Edited February 21, 2010 by hhgz

[a2396]

"I agree her having kids is a reason why there should be no sin sod but he said she was unmarried so it is not open and shut."

That's right: illegitimate children and her previous lifestyle have no bearing...

As for ending the relationship, try this: do not give her any more money. Voila!

So, she can have illegitimate children and not legally married and is still an "eligible girl" for sin sod? Of so, that keeps the door open for most of them, since not many young & poor Thais get legally married. I hope I understood your comment correctly. I am reminded of the reply I often get when I ask the darlings if they have a BF. The answer: "I am single", which (to me) only means they are not married. They still can have multiple BF's, GIKS or whatever. A meaningless answer.

[Huey]

*sigh* I love how people make separate accounts to talk about this stuff.

Ok look real simple, give your GF the choice;

1) Marry you on your terms and with no sin sot whatsoever to her worthless mother. However you may give your GF a few thousand baht every month that she can give to her mother if she wishes.

2) Continue to grow older as a unmarried single mother with 2 kids and no help from the fathers.

If she loves you she will respect your sacrifice of raising kids not your own, and make the sacrifice of her mother's happiness for you to make the relationship work.

Come on folks not rocket science here.

[Huey]

Even better, find a girl with a family who doesn't give a shit about your money and only that their daughter is happy.

Even better,

It reminds me of what a friend told me years ago.... "The perfect Thai girl for marriage is a sibling-less orphan with no children."

Ok well to be fair, if she has a good family it is worth the Sin Sot. If she has a good family that doesn't need your support and treats you like blood. Then you on your own will wish to take care of them and do right by them without being told or pressured.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Huey

[hhgz]

"So, she can have illegitimate children and not legally married and is still an "eligible girl" for sin sod?"

I was being facetious, and everyone except you seems to know that. The person who posted that she deserved sinsod despite having illegitimate children - simply because she was never married - reminds me of many car owners in Thailand. People refuse to register their cars properly, driving for years with a red plate. When the car is sold, the buyer will pay more because the car had never been registered. The OP's girlfriend is like the unregistered car: it's been driven around for years, the luster long lost, most of the worthiness worn away. But, since it has never been registered ("married"), it's almost the same as brand new. No, it's not. No, she's not.