A Situation.

[Youbloodybeauty]

Not sure where to put this.

A teacher this week noticed a young girl has been doing something unusual to herself and the teacher asked her if everything is OK. The girl (6 years old) told the teacher that a neighbor (boy - 13 years old) where she lives had done something to her twice and it seems by the description she has been raped by him.

The teacher had told the mother when ready, to call her and she will have the school doctor check her daughter and willing to be a witness to what she had told her.

The mother was paralyzed not knowing what to do and my advice was to go straight away and have her checked. She has gone to see the teacher today so hopefully can help as the mother as you can imagine is inconsolable.

Police have not been told. Although, the family of the boy has been told by the girls family and the boys mother said to get evidence but she later fainted.

It's a difficult situation with the boy being 13. If it is found the girl has been raped by this boy, what then?

[Mario2008]

Both need help or better said both families need help. The 6 year old as victim and the 13 year as there is a problem with his sexual development. If not treated his problems will increase and his behavior repeated.

What can be done depends on the financial situation of the child and where they are located. For the girl there are some foundations that can lead the way to a good treatment. For the boy I'm totally in the dark what Thailand has to offer regarding treatment. The boy also might be moved away from the neighborhood, which will also be good for the victim. help and treatment for him might be. It is best to start treatment right away for the boy. Also because a judge might find that very important and treatment might be more important than punishment. Having the boy only punished would be a very bad option.

[MikeyIdea]

I suppose this is a private school and that the victim and the underage criminal are both Thai. I hope that it is an expensive school too to be honest, so that the parent of the young girl has money to help her getting over this.

IMO, the boy matter not right now, if the girls family want to take legal action then they can do that in a few weeks time too if they want. The most important thing now is that the 6 year old child gets the support she needs. I can highly recommend a child psychiatrist called Dr. Nalinee Cherwanitchakorn at Bangkok Hospital, I have personal experience with her and I think she is very good, I have a lot of respect for her. There are 2 things to this, caring for the child, helping her over the trauma, stopping the incident from affecting the rest of her life and perhaps gathering evidence. I do recommend a child psychiatrist for the first, it’s not only helping the child directly (that’s the small bit), the more important bit (IMO) is the child psychiatrist teaching the parents how they can help their child the right way.

If the child psychiatrist is expected to gather evidence of sexual abuse and rape too, then it needs to be very clearly communicated and written confirmation that she understands and accepts that goal is not a bad idea; psychiatrists generally refuse to testify in Thailand.

The child psychiatrist charge around 1,200 bath per hour, it shouldn’t be difficult getting the boy’s family to pay. What the child told the teacher is decent evidence but not perfect, note that the teacher will need the schools authorization to be able to testify so it’s not enough that the teacher wants to do it, get the schools written only! commitment. If the family of the child is determined to push this through the courts, then child psychiatrists testimony and evidence would be very advisable. Testimony is OK but best is video

If this is a Thai – Thai case then I bet it will never go to court (unless the girls parents are rich). I think this will happen: The boy’s family pay for the child psychiatrist, some more money as compensation and the boy disappears from the neighbourhood never to return - the whole family moves most likely – end of story

OP, Recommend the parents to go and ask for advice how they can help the child over this, that is (IMO) the most important success factor (make them understand that, they probably don't want to...)

I ealier wrote: The boy matter not right now, actually he doesn't matter very much now either, punish him won't help and not punish him won't help either

[MangoMungo]

There was an article in the Globe and Mail today about this subject. It was a book review for The Trauma Myth: The Truth About the Sexual Abuse of Children - and its Aftermath by Susan A. Clancy.

What it said was that it is not the abuse itself that causes trauma—but rather the narrative that is later imposed on the abuse experience.

The most common feeling victims report is not fear or panic, but confusion. Because children don’t understand sexual encounters in the same ways that adults do, they normally accommodate their perpetrators— something they feel intensely ashamed about as adults.

The professional assumptions about the nature of childhood trauma can harm victims by reinforcing these feelings. Survivors are thus victimized not only by their abusers but also by the industry dedicated to helping them.

Though never ever the child’s fault, abuse is not usually experienced as traumatic when it occurs. Instead, the trauma often comes later when the therapeutic culture dictates to victims how they should feel about their experience.

(Taken pretty much word for word from the amazon book review as I didn't know if I was allowed to link to the article or the review.)

[MikeyIdea]

I don't quite agree with some of the information you quote, and only bad child psychiatrists would dictate to victims how they should feel about their experience. True I think that confusion is the start feeling and that shame is coming not as a result of what happened to them but from how other people act. That is why I write; IMO, Recommend the parents to go and ask for advice how they can help the child over this. How they act is going to affect the child the most, and help (passive or active) or hinder the child from getting over it

[Youbloodybeauty]

I had no idea where to turn and thank you so much for your replies. Has given a direction.

Yes the young girl goes to a private school. She is Thai.

The boy is also Thai (no idea where he goes to school) and lives about 3 or 4 townhouses up the Moobaan. Boys parents own the home and so do the young girls. This will be a problem because it's not easy to sell up and move.

The boys father is a taxi driver and doubt they could pay anything to help.

The mother is taking the girl to the doctors right now and I might know more later today. I understand the incidents may have happened more than a few weeks ago but seeing my own doctor today he said that tears could still be picked up if this is what actually happened.

If it turns out to be bad news then I will contacted the Bangkok Hospital.

Thank you.

[orchis]

Doctor's report. Complaint to the police. How difficult can that be.

[Mario2008]

Goo luck in this difficult situation. I totally agree with that parents must also need help with coming to terms with this, as to not to victimize the child any further.

The boy also will need help, if alone to prevent it from happening again. Punishment is not going to help to prevent it, although it gives a clear signal that what he did is not acceptable. Normally what you see in this kind of cases is a lack of empathy. They don't have an eye for what they do to another person. Coming to realize what they did and what it means for the other person is very important for their development and prevention.

[Mario2008]

Doctor's report. Complaint to the police. How difficult can that be.

Loss of face is a big thing and might prevent the parents from going to the police. The family might not be happy with things coming out in public and rather deal with the boys family directly. This will probably men the boy will not get treatment, with all possible consequences.

[Youbloodybeauty]

Doctor's report. Complaint to the police. How difficult can that be.

True but never had to deal with something like this before.

Do you know what the police would do with a minor?

[MikeyIdea]

Boys parents own the home and so do the young girls. This will be a problem because it's not easy to sell up and move.

If the boys parents own their home or not is less of a problem I think. If they are given the choice of seeing their 13 year old boy having his future destroyed - publically of course - or leave to never come back again, then they will leave

Doesn’t matter if it happened a few weeks ago, or months ago, the parents can still sue. Not that I recommend that path though. Most important evidence can always be captured in the beginning – now – if the family considers taking legal action, then the video camera should be rolling right now when the doctor examines the girl the first time. If it doesn’t roll right now, get it rolling. If you want to help them and they don’t have a video camera, borrow them yours. There is nothing that judges like better than video evidence. If nothing else, it could probably make the boy’s family accept to sell and leave. If the boy doesn’t leave, then the girls family probably have to, double burden on the poor girl who has enough already. I don’t see that the girl can live there if the boy still is there

Adults (especially western) often see the prevention of it happening again and justice for the young daughter as equally important as how she takes it herself for some reason that I don’t understand. I see prevention and justice as ‘nice to have’. Only the girl really matters to me. I am not saying that I recommend a court case, but if you can help the girls family to gather good evidence that hold in court (i.e., a video where the girl point at where (on her body) the boy touched / or more…, what he used (pointing of course), did he take her clothes off, his clothes, some words are needed but they aren’t a crucial part of the evidence actually, a judge will see = have enough for a conviction anyway of course).

I don’t think this will go to court, but evidence gathered will force the boy’s family to sell and leave. I hope…

Good Luck

[dmax]

well i wouldnt hold my breath with the cops doing anything, probably a fine for the boys parents and half of which goes to them

[MikeyIdea]

Doctor's report. Complaint to the police. How difficult can that be.

True but never had to deal with something like this before.

Do you know what the police would do with a minor?

Not important I think. Care for the girl first and get video evidence of what she describes and shows before she gets affected by having to explain what happened too many times. This is a subject that she doesn't want to talk about, don't make her talk about it often, make every time count when it comes to gathering evidence.

The boy is only 13, what probably happened is criminal law no matter how young the person committing it is. The police won't rush out and arrest him with drawn guns considering the age but he will probably be locked up for several years if he is convicted of rape, not in a normal jail of course. I see it as his parents responsibility to make sure that he gets treatment, that's what they are for. Now I see the most important thing to help the girl. Gathering evidence enough to make the boy's parents sell and leave would be very good help for the girl

[MikeyIdea]

Doctor's report. Complaint to the police. How difficult can that be.

I would be very very surprised if this goes to court

[MikeyIdea]

well i wouldnt hold my breath with the cops doing anything, probably a fine for the boys parents and half of which goes to them

Nope, rape can and probably will give several years in jail actually, if there is evidence and victim and parents are willing to proceed, which they normally never are in Thailand. Loss of face is one reason, Thai's will also more than westerners ignore what is not going to help the child, justice and prevention for instance (that's more for the parents not for the child, for the time being)

The police can't act because the child is a minor, if the court orders them to, then of course they will

[Mario2008]

You might contact the Pavena foundaton for woman and childfren. They might be able to give you more information about what would hapen to the boy and can give options for the girl and her parents. At least they will be able to direct you in the right directon to get some more answers.

http://www.pavenafoundation.or.th

They even have a 24 hour helpline: 1134.

[Youbloodybeauty]

You might contact the Pavena foundaton for woman and childfren. They might be able to give you more information about what would hapen to the boy and can give options for the girl and her parents. At least they will be able to direct you in the right directon to get some more answers.

http://www.pavenafoundation.or.th

They even have a 24 hour helpline: 1134.

Thanks Mario, the doctor they took the girl today refused to examine her and said to go to the police.

Just given them the telephone number above and they will call them now.

[MikeyIdea]

Thanks Mario, the doctor they took the girl today refused to examine her and said to go to the police.

Just given them the telephone number above and they will call them now.

Doctor - Yes. Must have paper from the police and only some doctors can do it. My own experience, could be different for child, I don't know. Very good of Mario2008 to get pavenafoundation, they should be able to help

If it's the same as I needed to do... The child doesn't have to go with them to the police but the parents have to file a complaint first. The police will then give them a paper that they must bring to the hospital. I did this at Latprao hospital some years ago. I got a paper from the police that I had to give to the doctor on duty, he examined and wrote down but wasn't authorised to sign so I had to come back later and fetch it after the authorised doctor had.

I think that it is more important that it is done correctly the first time rather than it is done quickly (from an evidence perspective, nothing beats video)

[Youbloodybeauty]

I think that it is more important that it is done correctly the first time rather than it is done quickly (from an evidence perspective, nothing beats video)

Agree 100%. My wife ended up calling The Pavena Foundation and they were very helpful. They also said it must be reported to police first so the doctor was correct. Looks like another day lost and but will be reported to police tomorrow.

Unfortunately we are not in Thailand at the moment and can't help them with video.

[Youbloodybeauty]

The mother went to the police yesterday and reported what was said to the teacher. I think the police gave them the name of a doctor to send her and was taken there yesterday too.

She was checked and there was no sign.

A worry over but I think will be more careful about keeping an eye on her. Problem is the soi is full of kids that run from "one house to the other".

Edited February 25, 2010 by Youbloodybeauty

[MikeyIdea]

No sign from the medical doctors side is not surprising, you wrote that it may have happened more than a few weeks ago

Nothing is going to happen at all unless proper evidence is gathered. As it looks to be going now, the boy can continue to live almost next door to the 6-year-old girl and that can not be good for the girls'recovery

What's needed to put pressure on the boy's family to disappear from the neighbourhood forever? Less than what's needed to get a conviction, video where the girl tells what happened and points and shows what the boy did would probably be enough to get the boy's family going, that and - If you don't sell and leave, then your boy won't see be out again for a couple of years. His parents would probably accept (I would)

[Mario2008]

A doctor can only check if their was intercourse, not other forms of other sexual abuse. That he can't find anything does not mean she wasn't abused in one way or the other. On the other hand it means that gathering evidence is much harder.

They might still want to see someone who is specialized in child abuse to interview to child to get a more clear picture about what happend.

That is a very delicate process. Children are great witnesses, but more than others prone to please the person who is asking question with the answer they think that person wants to hear. It can also not be ruled out that the teacher was leading the girl about why she was showing her behavior that alerted him.

[Youbloodybeauty]

Really don't know what happened, if anything. The words were from a 6 year old were taken to be suspicious by her teacher and alerted her parent.

Parent has gone to the police plus had her checked. Police have on record what was said to the teacher for future reference if there is another complaint.

The boy has been told to keep well away.

The girls parent I'm sure will keep a very close eye on her. Has thought about moving, so this might be the trigger.

Mario, I'll suggest that she see a specialist.

...and thanks to everyone above for help.

Regards YBB

[Mario2008]

My compliments to you. You have been a great help to this girl and her family.