Lobby Group Foreigners In Thailand

[daveb1]

More people investing money and spending money in Thailand. It seems unfair to me that U.S. citizens can own land in Thailand but UK citizens cant! I think more UK and EEC citizens would invest in Thailand if it was a bit more secure for them.

[chownah]

More people investing money and spending money in Thailand. It seems unfair to me that U.S. citizens can own land in Thailand but UK citizens cant! I think more UK and EEC citizens would invest in Thailand if it was a bit more secure for them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How is it that US citizens can own land in Thailand?

[daveb1]

Some trade deal between the US and Thailand that goes back to the war dont know all the details maybe someone can fill us in

[ozzydom]

The answer is very simple really...

You are living in Thailand

You agreed to abide by their rules and laws when you moved there

You chose to do that under the current laws..

Would you go to the UK, USA, Europe and expect the country to change its laws to suit you....I dont think so...So why talk about it in Thailand???...

If you dont like it........leave.  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I must fully concur with burnsy (a Weagles supporter,shudder,shudder) we were all fully aware of the land ownership laws when we settled here and to retrospectively want the goal posts moved is a bit naive. Sure, some of us will get burned but that can happen under any circumstances.

Do you really think that owning a bit of dirt and building your farang dream house in the middle of a village of thai style baans wont create anomosity. dream on....

Even in OZ, probably the most tolerant people on earth, there is much ill will toward the Japanese ,because of the huge amounts of estate they bought up when the yen was strong.

If a farang were to become a fully fledged thai citizen ,then there may be some justification in seeking land rights otherwise we are just visitors on visa,s .

thai LAND for the thais.

[gburns57au]

The answer is very simple really...

You are living in Thailand

You agreed to abide by their rules and laws when you moved there

You chose to do that under the current laws..

Would you go to the UK, USA, Europe and expect the country to change its laws to suit you....I dont think so...So why talk about it in Thailand???...

If you dont like it........leave.  

I must fully concur with burnsy (a Weagles supporter,shudder,shudder) we were all fully aware of the land ownership laws when we settled here and to retrospectively want the goal posts moved is a bit naive. Sure, some of us will get burned but that can happen under any circumstances.

Do you really think that owning a bit of dirt and building your farang dream house in the middle of a village of thai style baans wont create anomosity. dream on....

Even in OZ, probably the most tolerant people on earth, there is much ill will toward the Japanese ,because of the huge amounts of estate they bought up when the yen was strong.

If a farang were to become a fully fledged thai citizen ,then there may be some justification in seeking land rights otherwise we are just visitors on visa,s .

thai LAND for the thais.

Gee thanks Ozzy.....I think

What gets me is all these guys wanting land ownership rights because they are worried that their partners will leave them and get it all.....

The same guys that have told us about their strong and life lasting relationships with their Good Thai Ladies.....

[chownah]

The answer is very simple really...

You are living in Thailand

You agreed to abide by their rules and laws when you moved there

You chose to do that under the current laws..

Would you go to the UK, USA, Europe and expect the country to change its laws to suit you....I dont think so...So why talk about it in Thailand???...

If you dont like it........leave.  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I must fully concur with burnsy (a Weagles supporter,shudder,shudder) we were all fully aware of the land ownership laws when we settled here and to retrospectively want the goal posts moved is a bit naive. Sure, some of us will get burned but that can happen under any circumstances.

Do you really think that owning a bit of dirt and building your farang dream house in the middle of a village of thai style baans wont create anomosity. dream on....

Even in OZ, probably the most tolerant people on earth, there is much ill will toward the Japanese ,because of the huge amounts of estate they bought up when the yen was strong.

If a farang were to become a fully fledged thai citizen ,then there may be some justification in seeking land rights otherwise we are just visitors on visa,s .

thai LAND for the thais.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Gee thanks Ozzy.....I think

What gets me is all these guys wanting land ownership rights because they are worried that their partners will leave them and get it all.....

The same guys that have told us about their strong and life lasting relationships with their Good Thai Ladies.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The one legitimate concern I have heard is if your wife should die. If the family didn't like you they could move you out. I think a "use for life" clause in the land deed would be great for this situation and would probably be more in the realm of possibility rather then liberalizing ownership.

Edited May 16, 2005 by chownah

[Erwin1011]

I just ran accross another thread by Sumitr Man :

alien land ownership rules,dept of land.

Read it and you know where you stand legally: nowhere.

[SEAtramp]

How is it that US citizens can own land in Thailand?

They cannot. What they can do is own a MAJORITY stake in the shareholding company (the property) .........

Treaty Of Amity: The U.S.-Thai Treaty of Amity and Economic Relations (AER) was originally signed in 1833. The 1966 iteration of the Treaty allows U.S. citizens and businesses incorporated in the U.S., or in Thailand that are majority-owned by U.S. citizens, to engage in business on the same basis as Thais, exempting them from most of the restrictions on foreign investment imposed by the Alien Business Act of 1999. Under the Treaty, Thailand restricts American investment only in the fields of communications, transport, fiduciary functions, banking involving depository functions, the exploitation of land or other natural resources, and domestic trade in agricultural products. Notwithstanding their treaty rights, many Americans choose to form joint ventures with Thai partners, allowing them to hold the majority stake because of their familiarity with the Thai economy and local regulations.

[chownah]

How is it that US citizens can own land in Thailand?

They cannot. What they can do is own a MAJORITY stake in the shareholding company (the property) .........

Treaty Of Amity: The U.S.-Thai Treaty of Amity and Economic Relations (AER) was originally signed in 1833. The 1966 iteration of the Treaty allows U.S. citizens and businesses incorporated in the U.S., or in Thailand that are majority-owned by U.S. citizens, to engage in business on the same basis as Thais, exempting them from most of the restrictions on foreign investment imposed by the Alien Business Act of 1999. Under the Treaty, Thailand restricts American investment only in the fields of communications, transport, fiduciary functions, banking involving depository functions, the exploitation of land or other natural resources, and domestic trade in agricultural products. Notwithstanding their treaty rights, many Americans choose to form joint ventures with Thai partners, allowing them to hold the majority stake because of their familiarity with the Thai economy and local regulations.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe that his treaty has expired and is no longer valid in Thailand.

Check out the new posting in real estate forum.

[sadman]

I am not yet in LOS more than 3-5 months per year, so if you feel I am just a tourist with no right to offer an opinion, that's fine - just ignore this. Please accept my comments as a response to the request for votes, rather than any belief that I have a valid view.

I agree that if someone settles in LOS, perhaps works, raises a family etc - effectively, if it is their home, rather than a holiday destination - they should have some right to own their land. However, I've seen many problems with this in the UK with people buying up holiday homes in the shires, abuses of the council 'right-to-buy' policy and so on. The results are the same - artificially high prices, locals priced out, communities fractured.

It is surely fair and proper to be allowed to own one's own home, but important to implement safeguards against profiteering, whether by individuals or companies. A right could be given to those with work permits or retirement visas to own the land on which stands their primary residence. This might allow genuine people to have some security, while excluding carpet-baggers.

Possibly a little simplistic (what about inheritance, for example?), but something worth talking about.

[mouse]

The one legitimate concern I have heard is if your wife should die. If the family didn't like you they could move you out. I think a "use for life" clause in the land deed would be great for this situation and would probably be more in the realm of possibility rather then liberalizing ownership.

I know that if something happens to my wife, that one brother will go for it. He has said so and my wife shares my concerns. Therefore, we will be at the Umphur's soon and get a Thai will made for my wife. It will state that the children inherit the property and that the land will either remain in either their name or my wife's name until the children are 21 or whatever the requirement is. No one including me will be able to authorize the sale or transfer of the land until all three children are old enough to deceide amongst themselves.

I would also like to see where we can be more active here, especially after having lived here more than 6 years. I do not wish to take anything away from anyone, not their jobs, their money or rights but, ask for a little for myself.

For example when I lived in Italy for more than 15 years, I was told that I could vote in municipal elections, due to the fact that I worked there, paid taxes although I held American citizenship.

Edited May 16, 2005 by mouse

[LaoPo]

STILL INTERESTING SUBJECT...but I read such a lot of nonsense.

We are now on page 7 with 100 answers, so a lot of us are still interested, right?

What's so wrong with owning a house with land in the country you like, Thailand in this case?

May I remind that hundreds of thousands of people DO OWN a (second) home in another country in Europe in countries like the UK, Scandinavia, the Mediterrenean countries and even now in Eastern European countries like Poland, Tsechia, Slowakia, Hungary etc. It's the same for US citizens owning second homes in other countries like Mexico and Caribbean isles.

There is also a big 'boom' in Turkey where thousands buy a second home, villa or appartment at very cheap prices and the Turkish government (like other countries) is very happy with that!

So what? People come and go, people return, when they are old, to their home countries in many cases and the houses are sold to another generation, also local people who became richer (my parents sold to locals when they returned to their homecountry).

All foresaid countries welcomed the new house-owners because they bring a lot of money to the country and I mean A LOT of money. They spend enormous amounts of money, create 100's of thousands of new jobs and the money is pumped around in the local economy.

Prices are rising so the Taxman of the country benefits also enormously.

I expect that the laws WILL change in the near future, buying/owning land and houses, when the Thai government comes to the conclusion that the country benefits on a grand scale of the same and especially also when they find out that many of the 'newcomers' decide to buy/own in another country like Malaysia and therefore will lose these newcomers and their money.

Apart from that: we are now talking about the right and laws about owning land/houses by farangs (foreigners, including people from the Far East) in Thailand.

What about the rights the Thai have to buy and own land and houses in many other countries?

I foresay that a lot of rich Thai will buy a second home in other countries not in the least that it will be a grand 'show-off' to their other, also rich, friends to say that they 'just bought or built' a nice villa in, lets' say, the South of France or even Switzerland, Florida or maybe HAINAN, Southern China, a tropical island where there is a big 'boom' going on (Mr. Li Ka Shing, the Billionair from HK is investing already)... (China has more than 250.000 US $ Millionaires already and the number is increasing every day!)

In the near future Thai government will realize it has to do something about the laws or they will lose a big marketshare.

LaoPo

Edited May 16, 2005 by LaoPo

[roscoe]

sorry.not interested.i already own land (by proxy), and everything is kosha , given the proposition, i see no benefit for my personal situation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

owning by proxy is to own nothing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well, my wife actually bought all the thai land.being married, we share the passive income the land/buildings produce.its a moot point really.there is more than 1 way to get yourself into a position to benefit from having land.for me, owning the land in my name would advance my cause no further.and i dont give a rats ass if joe bloggs farang down the road cant own land.maybe he should invest his time in acting on alternate ways to get land, rather than winging,moaning and hitting voting buttons.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Once again you miss the point You still Own Nothing.

I am intriged,what is your "cause"(aka ulterior motive) anyway?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yes, as an individual, i own nothing. but i am married, so am in a partnership.

aside from our personal homes, "the cause" is to buy and sell and/or buy and draw passive income.collectively my wife and I own/control land and buildings in thailand, aussie and nzl.income and profits ie: the cause, is shared.the ownership structure has no bearing on the end goal.in nzl and aussie we have a family trust. in thailand we simply put it in her name.works perfectly.i dont need to have my name on the deed.and changing the law to allow me to put my name on the deed would not affect us in anyway whatsoever.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So you don't trust her enough to put your Aussie and New Zealand income and property in her name. Interesting thought process .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

that is a pathetic thing to say.

we choose the best and most viable ownership structures for the place of purchase. that is the "thought process".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My apologies for the clumsy ,but unintentional slight(please pass them on if need be )

However it did prompt "most viable ownership structures" from you.

It would appear that your point may be not "I'm alright Jack ,sod the rest",as your first post intimated .But,you can "own" if you are prepared to cut your cloth to suit your needs and aspirations .Which is markedly different to your first comment.

regards Roscoe

Edited May 16, 2005 by roscoe

[ozzydom]

The answer is very simple really...

You are living in Thailand

You agreed to abide by their rules and laws when you moved there

You chose to do that under the current laws..

Would you go to the UK, USA, Europe and expect the country to change its laws to suit you....I dont think so...So why talk about it in Thailand???...

If you dont like it........leave.  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I must fully concur with burnsy (a Weagles supporter,shudder,shudder) we were all fully aware of the land ownership laws when we settled here and to retrospectively want the goal posts moved is a bit naive. Sure, some of us will get burned but that can happen under any circumstances.

Do you really think that owning a bit of dirt and building your farang dream house in the middle of a village of thai style baans wont create anomosity. dream on....

Even in OZ, probably the most tolerant people on earth, there is much ill will toward the Japanese ,because of the huge amounts of estate they bought up when the yen was strong.

If a farang were to become a fully fledged thai citizen ,then there may be some justification in seeking land rights otherwise we are just visitors on visa,s .

thai LAND for the thais.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Gee thanks Ozzy.....I think

What gets me is all these guys wanting land ownership rights because they are worried that their partners will leave them and get it all.....

The same guys that have told us about their strong and life lasting relationships with their Good Thai Ladies.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The one legitimate concern I have heard is if your wife should die. If the family didn't like you they could move you out. I think a "use for life" clause in the land deed would be great for this situation and would probably be more in the realm of possibility rather then liberalizing ownership.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The fairly upmarket housing development in which my wife and I live when we are in C/M offers iron clad 30 year lease purchase that retains your rights to the property for 30 years ,which suits me because in 30years I am going to be a bit smelly anyway. I believe banks offer the same service.

I would think that a similar lease can be arranged if the property is in your wifes name and you ,(the farang) have tenure for life or 30 yrs whichever comes first.

this would protect your partner and/or childrens eventual rights to the property and give you peace of mind.

As for me,I am enough of an optomist to think my adoreable wife will always do the right thing by me,but enough of a realist to have a "GET OUT OF JAIL FREE " bank account,just in case the proverbial hits the fan.

ozzydom (three times married, twice burned)

[chownah]

STILL INTERESTING SUBJECT...but I read such a lot of nonsense.

We are now on page 7 with 100 answers, so a lot of us are still interested, right?

What's so wrong with owning a house with land in the country you like, Thailand in this case?

May I remind that hundreds of thousands of people DO OWN a (second) home in another country in Europe in countries like the UK, Scandinavia, the Mediterrenean countries and even now in Eastern European countries like Poland, Tsechia, Slowakia, Hungary etc. It's the same for US citizens owning second homes in other countries like Mexico and Caribbean isles.

There is also a big 'boom' in Turkey where thousands buy a second home, villa or appartment at very cheap prices and the Turkish government (like other countries) is very happy with that!

So what? People come and go, people return, when they are old, to their home countries in many cases and the houses are sold to another generation, also local people who became richer (my parents sold to locals when they returned to their homecountry).

All foresaid countries welcomed the new house-owners because they bring a lot of money to the country and I mean A LOT of money. They spend enormous amounts of money, create 100's of thousands of new jobs and the money is pumped around in the local economy.

Prices are rising so the Taxman of the country benefits also enormously.

I expect that the laws WILL change in the near future, buying/owning land and houses, when the Thai government comes to the conclusion that the country benefits on a grand scale of the same and especially also when they find out that many of the 'newcomers' decide to buy/own in another country like Malaysia and therefore will lose these newcomers and their money.

Apart from that: we are now talking about the right and laws about owning land/houses by farangs (foreigners, including people from the Far East) in Thailand.

What about the rights the Thai have to buy and own land and houses in many other countries?

I foresay that a lot of rich Thai will buy a second home in other countries not in the least that it will be a grand 'show-off' to their other, also rich, friends to say that they 'just bought or built' a nice villa in, lets' say, the South of France or even Switzerland, Florida or maybe HAINAN, Southern China, a tropical island where there is a big 'boom' going on (Mr. Li Ka Shing, the Billionair from HK is investing already)... (China has more than 250.000 US $ Millionaires already and the number is increasing every day!)

In the near future Thai government will realize it has to do something about the laws or they will lose a big marketshare.

LaoPo

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess, in a nutshell, the problem is that if foreign ownership were allowed on a big scale then Thai society would rapidly disappear since land ownership is one of the bases of rural Thai society....over half of the population is rural and exist happily on next to nothing because they have land where they have a house and to raise rice which keeps them fed. If foreigners buy up the land they will displace the rural poor etc. etc. This has happened many times throughout the world for instance Central America where American fruit companies bought up all the farmable land so the poor people lost their land and ended up working for the fruit company for so little that they could hardly afford to buy food whereas before they could easily raise enough to eat on the same land......anyway......this fear that a social support system can vanish when foreign land ownership is allowed is not a paranoid fantasy...it is a major threat throughout the world.

Now it seems OK to let some foreigners buy small plots of land for reasonable things but the problem is that once the door is cracked open it is more easily thrown wide open. I posted this previously on this thread and you can read it if you want......this is all in reply to your question, "What's so wrong with owning a house with land in the country you like, Thailand in this case?"

[gburns57au]

STILL INTERESTING SUBJECT...but I read such a lot of nonsense.

We are now on page 7 with 100 answers, so a lot of us are still interested, right?

What's so wrong with owning a house with land in the country you like, Thailand in this case?

May I remind that hundreds of thousands of people DO OWN a (second) home in another country in Europe in countries like the UK, Scandinavia, the Mediterrenean countries and even now in Eastern European countries like Poland, Tsechia, Slowakia, Hungary etc. It's the same for US citizens owning second homes in other countries like Mexico and Caribbean isles.

There is also a big 'boom' in Turkey where thousands buy a second home, villa or appartment at very cheap prices and the Turkish government (like other countries) is very happy with that!

LaoPo

That is because the law in those places allow it.....what we are talking about is the Thai laws in existence now and the desire of some people to change it....

[ozzydom]

STILL INTERESTING SUBJECT...but I read such a lot of nonsense.

We are now on page 7 with 100 answers, so a lot of us are still interested, right?

What's so wrong with owning a house with land in the country you like, Thailand in this case?

May I remind that hundreds of thousands of people DO OWN a (second) home in another country in Europe in countries like the UK, Scandinavia, the Mediterrenean countries and even now in Eastern European countries like Poland, Tsechia, Slowakia, Hungary etc. It's the same for US citizens owning second homes in other countries like Mexico and Caribbean isles.

There is also a big 'boom' in Turkey where thousands buy a second home, villa or appartment at very cheap prices and the Turkish government (like other countries) is very happy with that!

LaoPo

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is because the law in those places allow it.....what we are talking about is the Thai laws in existence now and the desire of some people to change it....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bondy and Skasey come to mind.

[The_Moog]

Erwin.

Are you hiring a writer/analyst to put this together ?

[markee]

So let me see if I have got this right, some of you guys want to negotiate for concessions with a racist government which clearly does not want farang in Thailand. The only reason for tolerating our presence is money.

Also what do you have to negotiate with?

I understood negotiation to be the trading of concessions to reach a mutually beneficial state but I cannot see that you have anything to negotiate with i.e. no concessions to offer.

"So Mr Farang, you would like us to change our laws for you. OK we may look at doing that but what have you to offer us in return?"

NOTHING that's what!!!

And you can wax lyrical about optimism and pessimism till the elephants come home but the fact still remains the Thais will only come to the negotiating table ready for business if they see revenue from farang falling.

[peder.klockmann]

So maybe it is time to take this to the next level.  I will keep my vote private but, if there is someone that wants to start a website on this matter, let me  know and I will arrange for free web hosting for such a website. 

There now you have my $50 contribution.  Once the site is up and running I may even give you my opinion.  The only request is that it is kept respectful to the nation, the people and the oposition, totally above board and that all members remember that they are guests here.  If these rules are not followed then I would pull my support.

I feel that even though we are being taxed in a round about manner through purchases, spouses, other expenditures in Thailand etc., and there is nothing wrong in trying to get a little representation for that taxation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Were you offering to pay a portion of a web hosting company, or are you a web hosting company that can help out?

If so, well let me know our limitiations.

ie

Diskspace, Bandwidth, POP Emails, ect... (you should know the drill)

If not, I will just pick a hosting company and register a .org domain

BTW, I will be using Mambo; if anybody out there is familiar with Mambo (not the dance) and, are willing to lend a hand with the design, let me know.

With Mambo we will be able to develop our community, with multiple members that can add updates and ect... in an extremely easy (for most) format. There will be a slight learning curve that may intimidate some.

[mouse]

So maybe it is time to take this to the next level.  I will keep my vote private but, if there is someone that wants to start a website on this matter, let me  know and I will arrange for free web hosting for such a website. 

There now you have my $50 contribution.  Once the site is up and running I may even give you my opinion.  The only request is that it is kept respectful to the nation, the people and the oposition, totally above board and that all members remember that they are guests here.  If these rules are not followed then I would pull my support.

I feel that even though we are being taxed in a round about manner through purchases, spouses, other expenditures in Thailand etc., and there is nothing wrong in trying to get a little representation for that taxation.

Were you offering to pay a portion of a web hosting company, or are you a web hosting company that can help out?

If so, well let me know our limitiations.

ie

Diskspace, Bandwidth, POP Emails, ect... (you should know the drill)

If not, I will just pick a hosting company and register a .org domain

BTW, I will be using Mambo; if anybody out there is familiar with Mambo (not the dance) and, are willing to lend a hand with the design, let me know.

With Mambo we will be able to develop our community, with multiple members that can add updates and ect... in an extremely easy (for most) format. There will be a slight learning curve that may intimidate some.

I will provide the following -- 50MB Diskspace - 10GB Monthly Bandwith - 20 Sub Domains - Unlimited FTP acocunts - 20 Email adresses - cPanel - and daily backups

[ozzydom]

Seems to be a bit of undue haste involved here. A three day old forum and a low positive posting rate and your up and running.

Just hope you know what your doing and dont stir up a veritable hornets nest for all farangs.

[lampard10]

"So Mr Farang, you would like us to change our laws for you. OK we may look at doing that but what have you to offer us in return?"

NOTHING that's what!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How about Liverpool Football Club?

Surely if it's good for the Goose it's good for the Gander.

[expatinasia]

If the government of Thialand believed that it would be beneficial for farangs to own land easily, the constitution would be revised. It is just that simple. Hard to believe, but some people value others things more than money, including their culture and the lack of diversity.

[chownah]

It is one thing to post back and forth on TV with no clear direction or point of cohesion and it is another thing to develop a web site and focus world wide attention on your lack of the same. First impressions are important, be sure you make a good one.

The approach you are taking is very direct......very western.....not very asian...not very Thai. Good Luck.

[Gary A]

AND.................... if you don't meet our demands we are going to take our money and go home.

It is one thing to post back and forth on TV with no clear direction or point of cohesion and it is another thing to develop a web site and focus world wide attention on your lack of the same.  First impressions are important, be sure you make a good one.

The approach you are taking is very direct......very western.....not very asian...not very Thai.  Good Luck.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Erwin1011]

If the government of Thialand believed that it would be beneficial for farangs to own land easily, the constitution would be revised.  It is just that simple.  Hard to believe, but some people value others things more than money, including their culture and the lack of diversity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you sure it is written in the constitution ?

[Erwin1011]

Erwin.

Are you hiring a writer/analyst to put this together ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You'r soliditing ?

[Erwin1011]

It is one thing to post back and forth on TV with no clear direction or point of cohesion and it is another thing to develop a web site and focus world wide attention on your lack of the same.  First impressions are important, be sure you make a good one.

The approach you are taking is very direct......very western.....not very asian...not very Thai.  Good Luck.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I understand the angle you take here..

but then again, building up a support base, finding what is the best possible way to get to what you like to see, discuss it at length with the individuals involved, is a very multi cultural aspect of life.

[thaiflyer1]

Seems to be a bit of undue haste involved here. A three day old forum and a low positive posting rate and your up and running.

Just hope you know what your doing and dont stir up a veritable hornets nest for all farangs.

Agreed.................. ??????????