Organic Food Is A Lie And A Con

[rays]

........organic food is nothing more than a marketing con. There is little evidence to substantiate most of the claims made by the organci food industry. For instance, there is no evidence whatsoever that pesticide residues on food are harmful to health. No disease associated with such residues, not one single perosn has had to go to hospital because of pesticide residues on food, not one person has ever had wriiten on the death certificate...death due to pesticide residues....what a huge con this all is!!!!

[angiud]

:D

Buon appetito with the healthy pesticides

:D

[HS Mauberley]

I'll pass that on to the researchers who link pesticide use by farmers and an increased risk of lymphomas.

[loong]

I notice that you choose your words carefully.

"There is little evidence to substantiate most of the claims made by the organci food industry."

So you do not state that there is no evidence - just little evidence. And this about most of the claims! So is there a lot of evidence to substantiate some of the claims?

Is there no evidence of pesticide and fertiliser run-off polluting rivers?

For a short period in the year, 90% of my veg that I eat come from my garden ( coming to an end now, unfortunately). The rest of the year I have to buy most of my veg. Why do I always feel healthier and have more energy when my diet includes more home grown veg? Well maybe its a phsycological thing, but even if it is - so what.

[rice555]

Hello Loong and HS Mauberley, you both didn't talk about what the OP said. I don't want to eat food that is dripping wet with chems, but the spraying of chems is not an answer to the OP statement, like wise, runoff is not either. They aren't good, but, it comes back to lack of education and training in their use and handling.

OP-rays, chicken or the egg???????

rice555

[rice555]

Hello Loong and HS Mauberley, you both didn't talk about what the OP said. I don't want to eat food that is dripping wet with chems, but the spraying of chems is not an answer to the OP statement, like wise, runoff is not either. They aren't good, but, it comes back to lack of education and training in their use and handling.

OP-rays, chicken or the egg???????

rice555

[Dr. Burrito]

What brought up the discussion anyway? As to organic, the pesticide thing is a pretty real issue, but the yammering the organic crowd does about fertilizer is a bit different. A plant sees the food as food, regardless of the source. The quality of the food is what is critical.

Well developed compost and organic fertilizers that deliver high quality food to the plant yield corresponding results, but end of the day, nitrogen is nitrogen, be it from fertilize or otherwise.

Pesticides, well, they can be nasty business depending on how they are applied, when and to what kind of produce. Thin skinned fruit such as apples, strawberries and the like, tend to soak it in more than something like a tomato. Also, end of the day, pesticides are more about creating produce for sale than for consumption. Who could care less about a few blotches on their fruit if it is from their garden, but in the store, the mass percentage of people still go by looks, whether that translates to taste or not, thus the advent of the commercial chemical industry as it applies to produce.

SO growing organic for home use makes perfect sense. Plant a few extras for the rabbits and you still make out without polluting your colon. But unless you are a true expert at creating organic fertilizer, you might want to use the additional help of the store for that area.

[Gary A]

My wife buys organic vegetables. How does she know they are organic? What she buys are full of bug holes. When I asked her why she buys those rather than the beautiful looking ones at the next table, she had a simple answer. If the bugs won't eat them why would we want to eat them.

[oldthaihand]

I'm not sure about the OP's logic.

Well organic milk tastes better IMO.

As for organic vegetables, I think Gary's wife said it best.

[Cuban]

not one person has ever had wriiten on the death certificate...death due to pesticide residues....what a huge con this all is!!!!

Agro-chemical firms will not allow it to be reported.

Seen many of the deformed children born to village workers that use chemicals banned in more developed countries? Need to travel from under your bridge to see them.

Denial - what a huge con it all is!

[H2oDunc]

There was a guy in the UK just jailed for 3 years for a 3 million POUND organic egg con. He was buying cheap battery farmed eggs and simply re labeling them organic. You can guarantee that ALL the people buying them swore the tasted better than the CHEAP ones. In the UK organic food can be classed as such if it is grown using human waste ie Sh^t. I would rather know my food had had a spray of chemicals than spent its growing time covered in human sewage

[cateaway]

My wife buys organic vegetables. How does she know they are organic? What she buys are full of bug holes. When I asked her why she buys those rather than the beautiful looking ones at the next table, she had a simple answer. If the bugs won't eat them why would we want to eat them.

Same as my mum does

[bina]

In the UK organic food can be classed as such if it is grown using human waste ie Sh^t. I would rather know my food had had a spray of chemicals than spent its growing time covered in human sewage

in accurate: oraganic does not mean covered in human waste. most western countries including israel in this group use human waste processed ONLY on crops that are not eaten: i.e. cotton, forage/hay, trees, etc.

to the OP i <deleted> are making a statement as fact, claim your sources. this thread will run as long as poeple stick to forum rules visavis factual info and no name calling (iknow that this subject will cause people to 'yell'.its like religioun.

while there is a large amount of 'fake' in organic agriculture, there are watchdog organizations that do try to check compliance. i suspect that the more 'third world/developing world' the country, the easier its is to fake results, more difficult to enforce laws/procedures...

as for the effects of pesticides/insecticides, there are known long term effects on humans, other mammals, reptiles etc from the stuff getting in to water lines, soil, bodies of water and food.

as for fertilizers, there are conflicting reports. recently read an article in scientific american on fertilizers, dont remember the jist (too tired)... organic does not mean, no chemicals. it means those chemicals or processes that are allowed to be used as defined by the organizations that have the organic 'rule books'...

bina

israel

[seedy]

If the bugs won't eat them why would we want to eat them.

Very simple. Very Wise.

Smart Lady.

[Token]

My wife buys organic vegetables. How does she know they are organic? What she buys are full of bug holes. When I asked her why she buys those rather than the beautiful looking ones at the next table, she had a simple answer. If the bugs won't eat them why would we want to eat them.

Well, she's making a big mistake then.

As a PhD in plant physiology/biochemistry I know that if you don't protect plants from pests, diseases and damage using chemicals (or other means), the safety of which has been thoroughly tested and approved, then they will produce their own chemicals to do the job. The cocktail of these natural chemicals are designed to be extremely toxic to animals, insects and bacteria, and it is unknown, through a lack of testing, if they have chronic or acute toxicity to humans, but it is very likely. I would avoid anything that has been infected, bruised, half-eaten however "natural" that may seem - they will contain a cocktail of hundreds of natural chemicals designed to kill acutely - if not long-term - in direct response to that damage (called a 'hypersensitive reaction'). The 'browning' of some fruits and vegetables when damaged is part of that, and can cause some digestive problems). I would like to see an epidemiological study of chronic toxicity and an organic diet - after all our ancestors before chemical agriculture died pretty young. Although I'm not blaming their food for that, they didn't live long enough for any chronic effects of their "natural"diet to be fully expressed.

Natural does NOT mean safe.

[Token]

My wife buys organic vegetables. How does she know they are organic? What she buys are full of bug holes. When I asked her why she buys those rather than the beautiful looking ones at the next table, she had a simple answer. If the bugs won't eat them why would we want to eat them.

Well, she's making a big mistake then.

As a PhD in plant physiology/biochemistry I know that if you don't protect plants from pests, diseases and damage using chemicals (or other means), the safety of which has been thoroughly tested and approved, then they will produce their own chemicals to do the job. The cocktail of these natural chemicals are designed to be extremely toxic to animals, insects and bacteria, and it is unknown, through a lack of testing, if they have chronic or acute toxicity to humans, but it is very likely. I would avoid anything that has been infected, bruised, half-eaten however "natural" that may seem - they will contain a cocktail of hundreds of natural chemicals designed to kill acutely - if not long-term - in direct response to that damage (called a 'hypersensitive reaction'). The 'browning' of some fruits and vegetables when damaged is part of that, and can cause some digestive problems). I would like to see an epidemiological study of chronic toxicity and an organic diet - after all our ancestors before chemical agriculture died pretty young. Although I'm not blaming their food for that, they didn't live long enough for any chronic effects of their "natural"diet to be fully expressed.

Natural does NOT mean safe.

I might add the following:

The 'browning' of some fruits and vegetables when damaged is part of that, and can cause some digestive problems due to phenolic compounds being oxidised and forming brown polymers, both of which stick tenaciously to proteins in mouth and gut - hence the dry sensation when you eat unripe bananas which are packed with protective phenolics like most young fruits).

The main problem with chemical use is their inappropriate or over-use and TIT, but so is poor storage of some foods that can lead to toxins mentioned below.

There is NO relationship between what is 'natural' and what is safe. The most toxic and carcinogenic chemicals known to man (eg. ergot of rye toxin, aflatoxins from mould in grains and nuts, and ricin from castor beans) are 'natural' pesticides. You only need one dose of a trace of aflatoxin to lead to vastly increased chance of certain cancers. Even the taste of almonds and apple pips is caused by protective cyanides that can poison your heart - so don't overdose on marzipan!

Even better, "If the bugs have eaten them why would we want to eat them!". I certainly wouldn't.

[welo]

I would like to see an epidemiological study of chronic toxicity and an organic diet - after all our ancestors before chemical agriculture died pretty young. Although I'm not blaming their food for that, they didn't live long enough for any chronic effects of their "natural"diet to be fully expressed.

Shouldn't the traditional food industry / chemical industry be very much interested in discrediting the organic food movement and provide such studies?

[Token]

I would like to see an epidemiological study of chronic toxicity and an organic diet - after all our ancestors before chemical agriculture died pretty young. Although I'm not blaming their food for that, they didn't live long enough for any chronic effects of their "natural"diet to be fully expressed.

Shouldn't the traditional food industry / chemical industry be very much interested in discrediting the organic food movement and provide such studies?

I guess they don't need to - the organic food industry is pretty small in comparison to conventionally produced food, partly due to the inflated prices of organic food (extra cost of production plus premiums that the middle men put on them). In fact the supermarkets make good money per item from organic food but it is still small in total. The producers are in league with the retailers, hook, line and sinker. Organic food is really a construction of the rich and middle classes who can indulge their fantasies about how they are in control of their lives through life-style choices and a dream of olden days when their ancestors ate such healthy diets, which is complete bull. It's got nothing to do with food safety or organoleptic quality, apart from a 'placebo' effect and that has been proven in several studies. Still the con works very nicely indeed, than you, for the producers and retailers. Unfortunately less, if anything, for the deluded consumer. Still, they can afford it........

[rice555]

Hello All, this was a interesting article(NYT), any thoughts?

"New Alarm Bells About Chemicals and Cancer"

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/06/opinion/...amp;ref=general

By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF

Published: May 5, 2010

The President’s Cancer Panel is the Mount Everest of the medical mainstream, so it is astonishing to learn that it is poised to join ranks with the organic food movement and declare: chemicals threaten our bodies.

[Token]

Hello All, this was a interesting article(NYT), any thoughts?

"New Alarm Bells About Chemicals and Cancer"

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/06/opinion/...amp;ref=general

By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF

Published: May 5, 2010

The President's Cancer Panel is the Mount Everest of the medical mainstream, so it is astonishing to learn that it is poised to join ranks with the organic food movement and declare: chemicals threaten our bodies.

Just shows how chemicals, not just pesticides, in food are only a segment of the chemical rainbow that this article refers to. I wonder why they didn't mention health food supplements and quack remedies from health shops etc - most of which are unregulated, unproven and untested.

[Ijustwannateach]

How interesting; someone's who's joined simply to crusade against 'organics.'

It is my understanding that for many plants, the fruit is MEANT to be eaten- in other words, the fruit is designed to be attractive, available, and nutritious, because the animals eating it will spread the seed. Hardly seems likely that some chew marks would encourage the plant to 'defend' the fruits with deadly poisons designed to kill the bearers of its seed.

[bina]

actually ijwt, he does have some points even if he is on a crusade. many of the toxins he mentioned are indeed poisonous; the bane of any goat/sheep farmer is the entero toxins from moldy feed/ergot poisoning causing colics/early abortions (miscarriages)/ and numerous other problems that on first look dont seem tied to nutrition... also, many fruits and vegetables are poisonous at certain stages and not at others for different animals to eat; humans can eat tomatoes and other solanim, other mammals get ill frm them, etc.

tannins in certain foods are poisonous in large quantities to sheep/goats, etc. greened potatoes are poisonous to infants. the lists are endless and very specific. however, most of what he mentions is not connected to organic/non organic but just to the general make up of the particular veggie/fruit.

anytime anyone beleives in something, he/she will enevitably find only the pros/cons of their side; organics, unfortunately, become equivalent with relgious beliefs in the way some people will defend to the ideas behind it all. my ex was a (now ex) chairman of the organic winter field crops in israel for quite a while. he was originally anti organic and gradually moved in the organic direction so even now, as he is manager of the kibbutz general store, we have more and more shelves of certified organics from veggies to dried food and meats/eggs. the move is because the prices ARE about the same for the non organics,and a large percentage of our population in the area want organic. most of the organics he puts on the shelves are local produced (israel) and therefore people can actually go and see the farm/factory/production line to see if it is the real thing. he also found many under the table non ethical practices/forgery. the difference is between natural and organic.

natural is what most people would do in a home garden: use minimal chemical/hormonal treatments; put up with less beautiful fruit, but not pay attention to water runoff from local farms, etc etc.

as with anything else: caveat emptor and know your sources.

bina

[welo]

For my part, I'm very interested in discussing the OP's key statement (or rather: having more knowledgeable people than myself discuss it ):

There is no evidence whatsoever that pesticide residues on food are harmful to health. No disease associated with such residues, not one single person has had to go to hospital because of pesticide residues on food

(Let's just forget about how his comment was wrapped in a somehow generalized bashing of 'organic' food. Let's do this in order to get - like bina said - the 'religion' out of the discussion.)

From my understanding 'organic' is also about other aspects of how the current food industry impacts our world and our environment (flora AND fauna), but maybe it helps the discussion if we focus on the OPs question of pesticides and effects on human health.

The question about unethical practices and fraud is of course relevant, but does not really touch the core of the subject - that is whether the concept/idea of organic food is right or wrong. And from what I understand the OP referred to organic food as 'a lie and a con' not because of farmers/traders that cheat but because of unproven claims that 'pesticides residues on food are harmful to health'.

I further understand from bina's reply that pesticides are proven to be harmful not necessarily because of direct residues on the food, but due to them getting into the ground water, soil and finally into the food itself.

Token replied to the NYTimes article and questioned the relevance of this article since 'chemicals in food [...] are only a segment of the chemical rainbow that this article refers to'. But from his statement I still cannot deduce his actual opinion on the matter of dangers through pesticides run-off in soil and ground water.

Another aspect of this discussion is critique of the 'glorification' of 'naturally' grown food - Token has pointed out the harmfulness of chemicals that are 'naturally' produced by plants when not protected against harmful insects and pests. Bina confirmed the occurrence of 'natural' poisons and their proven effect on human health, but stated that 'most of what he mentions is not connected to organic/non organic but just to the general make up of the particular veggie/fruit'. TBH I am not sure I understand the last part.

Please keep the discussion running

welo

[Token]

actually ijwt, he does have some points even if he is on a crusade.

most of what he mentions is not connected to organic/non organic but just to the general make up of the particular veggie/fruit.

natural is what most people would do in a home garden: use minimal chemical/hormonal treatments; put up with less beautiful fruit, but not pay attention to water runoff from local farms, etc etc.

bina

Well, at last some sensible suggestions. I expect shit to hit the fan and, true to form, it has - nvm had it all before. And 'crusade'????? - well, it's like with the Mohammed cartoons - if they don't agree they must be ungodly fanatics.

As for Ijustwannateach - I suggest you think again, Laddy, as you seem to think that the only parts of a plant we eat are fruits. Oh, err..... and most plants we grow are not even eaten (but don't confuse the kiddies with that one).

My point is that if you don't EFFECTIVELY prevent the natural toxins that are produced by pests/disease agents or their hosts in RESPONSE to disease or damage (not necessarily constitutive toxins) then acute or chronic toxicity can result. Pesticides are often the most effective means of preventing these toxins from being produced because they are so efficient at killing pests in low concs, before they affect the plants. That is why organic produce is prone to being damaged or infested and so are more likely to be more toxic.

To try to answer another point, most pesticides, apart from a few systemic fungicides, some translocated weedkillers and the actives in some GM crops, like Bt toxin, are residual and remain on the plant surface to kill the pathogens/insects etc before they can damage the economic part of the plant. Some are applied before edible portions of fruits are developed, or even broken down in the soil before the plant emerges or before they run off into the water supply. A simple wash in detergent is all that is necessary to remove any residues that might be on the surface - a cheap non-toxic one can be bought in Tops supermarket called St Andrew's Vegetable and Fruit Washing Liquid. I use it in Thailand and it also cleans off any pollution caused by handling, pollution and natural shit used on fields - of course all of this isn't needed for organic produce is it? I would even use it on organic produce in Thailand - it's like using Zebra crossings here - they give you a false and dangerous sense of security until you wise up.

[Token]

How interesting; someone's who's joined simply to crusade against 'organics.'

It is my understanding that for many plants, the fruit is MEANT to be eaten- in other words, the fruit is designed to be attractive, available, and nutritious, because the animals eating it will spread the seed. Hardly seems likely that some chew marks would encourage the plant to 'defend' the fruits with deadly poisons designed to kill the bearers of its seed.

I was going to answer this but can't be rat arsed.

[welo]

As somebody who is not religious about any of the two sides (pesticides boo vs. pesticides yay!) I'd really like to get some information out of this thread that I can apply in real-world...

Information I gathered so far

1. Natural is not necessarily good, the plant will produce toxins in reactions to pests/disease.

2. Some pesticides are applied in an early stage of the growth process (or even before), not leading to residues on the fruit.

3. Pesticides are most efficient in protecting the plant and can do that at low levels (=good)

4. Cheap non-toxic detergent can be used to wash off residues on the fruit/veg before consummation.

So if I acknowledge that

A. pesticides are not generally bad (especially if applied correctly) and

B. natural is not generally good

I have quite a view questions coming up for you

1. What plants/fruits are prone to naturally produced toxins as result of damage and disease? I assume this does not apply to all fruits the same? What about for instance a worm-hole in an apple (I was really afraid of eating those when I was a child )?

2. Do you neglect any negative impact on human health due to pesticide residues on and in food? AFAIK that implies that residues that cannot be washed off are of such a level that they do not affect health. Btw do you recommend peeling fruits/vegetables or not (vitamins vs. residues)?

3. How do possible intoxication by naturally produced toxins due to less effective (organic?) pest control compare to possible intoxication due to residues of chemical pesticides, I mean related to human health.

4. Are non-natural pesticides the best way to fight off pests and diseases (assuming correct application and no over-use)?

5. Do you think organic farming is always inferior to traditional farming (in an ideal world where both 'industries' always work perfectly - no mistakes/overuse made)

6. In the real-world, both industries (organic vs. traditional) will never work 100% correctly, meaning overuse and misapplication will happen, as well as greed-driven fraud etc. For the health-oriented consumer, what do you consider the safer and better choice. Not only but also for somebody living specifically in Thailand.

These questions are aiming at weighing pros/cons of organic vs. traditional methods (with focus on pest control), which I'm pretty sure is not a matter of black and white (what in this world is??).

I also found this link that rates fruits and vegetables on their health risk due to pesticide residues (but not limited to surface residues): the Dirty Dozen and the Clean 15

As I'm new to this sub-forum and obviously not well-informed (LOL) I apologize if these information/topic has been brought up before - I just think it is interesting information that relates to the current discussion.

Thank you for taking the time to answer!

welo

[Token]

recently read an article in scientific american on fertilizers, dont remember the jist (too tired)...

organic does not mean, no chemicals. it means those chemicals or processes that are allowed to be used as defined by the organizations that have the organic 'rule books'...

bina

israel

"recently read an article in scientific american on fertilizers, dont remember the jist (too tired)... "

Oh do me a favour!

From what I understand, 'organic' means 'free of synthetics'. Any old peristent poison can be applied as long as it is naturally made. And some of the chemicals used in organic agriculture certainly are. I think rotenone is one which is a great fish killer and wonderful as a run-off chemical. I've studied the effects of this on mitochondrial electron transfer which the heart depends on absolutely for energy (has a similar effect to cyanide which will also kill fish at extremely low concs). You have to wear gloves in a special laminar air flow cabinet when using the stuff. Persistent pyrethrins are another. Wonderful stuff. Which just goes to show the hypocrisy of it all.

Let me ask a question - does anyone eat organic food produced in Thailand? And if so, how do you know it's more free of pesticides than conventionally grown produce? Do you trust the label and all those fancy symbols coloured in green and why? It's all zebra crossings to me.

[Token]

4. Cheap non-toxic detergent can be used to wash off residues on the fruit/veg before consummation.

U shagging fruits then?

[welo]

LOL. Nice type of mine.

cucumber?

[Token]

LOL. Nice type of mine.

cucumber?

Yea, I've often imagined doing it with a cucumber, and especially a banana (some do you know, but not overripe ones), and even a durian without the skin (soft, ripe, naked flesh etc), but how do you get around with a blueberry?