Like Them Or Hate Them, But Thai Red Shirts Do Have A Point

[yoshiwara]

At least one wise man in The Nation!

The fact is that Thaksin was fabulously wealthy when he became PM and was not controlled by the power base in Thai government. He was hated by the rich and very high politicos as uncontrolled and could not be replaced at the ballot box hence the plan/plot to remove him via coup. Thaksin was instrumental and the driving force in the subway, skyway, 30 baht medical care for the poor and completion of the airport and to say he is the only/most corrupt politician and a devil is to say the Thai people don't eat rice. The ruling power base got rid of him and Thai politics and government returned to its normal mode. After opening Pandora's box with the hands off approach to the yellow shirt program of regime change the government cannot figure how to deal with the red shirts. Jail the leaders; shoot a few; hope they get tired and go back to their farms? This could go on for a few years.

Thaksin hated by the rich? ha-ha.

Uncontrolled yes. An overreacher who wanted it all for himself.

Note that the above contribution sidesteps and completely ignores his money laundering and thorough-going corruption.

Of course all that is said above is that Thaksin 'was fabulously wealthy'.

Our Thaksin apologist is unable to discuss how Thaksin acquired his wealth because then he would have to address his wealth accumulation while PM.

No, no, no we don't want that do we.

One other point.

An unintentional slip-up by our Thaksin apologist here.

If, as he says, Thaksin was 'fabulously wealthy' before he became PM ...

...and if it is the case that the amount of money confiscated by the courts as result of his PM activities is in excess of the money Thaksin accumulated before he assumed office

...then it follows that as a PM he was fabulously corrupt.

That's right. The fabulously corrupt Thaksin.

Your hero. Your phrase.

Fabulous.

[mca]

yoshi mate are you getting sponsored in aid of a worthy cause for every time you mention "Thaksin apologist"

[yoshiwara]

yoshi mate are you getting sponsored in aid of a worthy cause for every time you mention "Thaksin apologist"

I wish I was.

[MaxLee]

Now that I read and think about it,...

is anything that the red shirts are doing, any better than what the yellow shirts have done with their airport seizure last year???

To put it simple... Due to the yellow shirt's seizure of the airport, the interim leading Prime Ministers have been forced to remove themselves and give Abhisit the opportunity to become Prime Minister...

... and now when the same thing happens with the Red shirts issue, I mean, when Abhisit will resign and give red shirts the victory, then then yellow shirts will came back again with whatever campaign...

In other words Thailand's politicians are so weak and have absolutely no control over their people... and so these dilemnas will go on and on and on, without any real official elections which are corrupted anyway. And nothing will ever change...

[brahmburgers]

The Reds want it both ways. If their warped brand of 'democracy' brings back Thaksin and the added money they've been promised, the they like 'democracy.' If the next election brings non-Reds to power seats, then they will claim it's not democracy. In order for democracy to work, people have to understand what it entails, and people have to take responsibility for things. The Reds think democracy is a means to get Thaksin back, and therefore get more money shoveled out to their villages and in to their pockets, and more of the 'your debts are forgiven' statements.

Similarly, Thaksin wants the tail of justice to wag whichever way it suits him. If it's to his advantage to prove he was Mr. Big Shot who knew/controlled all that was happening with his money, then he can easily prove it. If he realizes later that it's actually to his advantage to appear 'out of the loop' and that it was his children and others who were manipulating his money, then he can get his lawyers on line to prove that also. Right now he's trying to convince the courts that he was 'out of the loop' nobody. Concurrently, he's telling his Red sheep that he's the only person who's rich enough, and powerful & wise enough, and CEO enough to take control again - and make their money worries go away.

The only point the red shirts have proven is that the Thai electorate is not mature enough to understand the responsibilities of democracy. You can not demand that your countrymen respect the injustices that have been inflicted on you, and at the same time support a leader who inflicts great injustice on them. That is tyranny, not democracy. Democracy requires the rule of law and the rights of everyone be respected above all else. 2 wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner is not a democracy, no matter how many votes are taken. Their lord and saviour Thaksin destroyed democracy long before the coup attempted to restore it. Sorry, the reds have a point, but it is simply showing that democracy doesn't belong in Thailand until the people grow up.

Agreed

Simply having a point, is not justification for enabling rogue military punks to go around tossing grenades in downtown Bangkok. Have there been any apologies or concern from T or Red Leaders - for the harm caused by the latest explosions? No, of course not. They probably think it's cool, particularly if it furthers their agenda of spooking the current administration, and annoying Bkk residents.

[BlackJack]

I find this article truly juvenile and fundamentally flawed in that is refers to achieving true democracy – well please tell me what that is and how it can be achieved?

It’s a dream and as the USA with Obamacare has just proven democracy is a joke. Most Americans and business were against the new health care scheme and so it should have never been approved. But USA politicians by the dozen were bought off to approve the bill. Totally ignoring the people that they represented. Is this the democracy you aspire too?

Obviously yes as the people hitting the Thailand streets now are being bought off. Most people want this to go away and get Thailand back on its feet and chugging on again. I am all for it.

BUT.

You cannot have democracy when the military continually takes over the country ( count the coups)

You cannot have democracy when you keep writing the Constitution (count the re writes)

You cannot have true democracy as it’s a dream

Dream on.

[ChiangMaiFun]

The upshot of this proposal is this.

If one must have a MAJORITY to win,

that would function as in most cases: taking the French elections as a example.

All and sundry register and run and if no ONE party or candidate wins 50% + .000000001

then the TOP TWO winners square off in a run off election.

Similar also to the American Primaries and then election.

Now here's the rub... little parties siphon off lots of big parties votes.

BUT when the two biggest winners run off,

all these NOW non-aligned voters can vote again.

So would they vote for PTP or Democrats?

If it is typically said more Democrat votes are siphoned off to smaller parties,

and PAD's small party too, it is easy to imagine that the Dems would gain

many more non-aligned votes in a run off.

If PTP gets it's typical 35% and Dems their 35% then that other 30%

is now loose and bets are not that they will go with PTP.

And bets are the non-Aligned power brokers would be

selling their constituency influence JUST AS HARD,

and expecting cabinet seats JUST as much.

I can't see how this benefits PTP as much... but only Thaksin.

And ONLY if he can PRE-PURCHASE the power brokers before the election,

like he did with TRT... Big MONEY dude, big money.

Jaquese Chiracs party got most (eq. Democrats )

National Front of Jean Marie LaPen (eq PTP )

Socialist of Jospin shjockingly 3rd (non specific third party)

When LaPen Ran against Chirac Chirac who wasn't much liked at all won over 80%

why because even as many hated his ass, they hated and FEARED LaPens wingnuts more...

Its only a matter of time now...

Abhisit has said he was willing to disband Parliament but there must be conditions attached

[ChiangMaiFun]

Self, to Thai friend, Yellow Shirt supporter: "Do you believe in democracy?"

Tf, YSs: "Oh, yes!"

Self: Do you understand, if Thailand has one-person one-vote democracy, your side will lose?"

(Silence.)

I think political consciousness in this country is at a low level, hence all the futile strife.

That's the problme with democracy - it doesn't always go the way you want - and the Thais don't want the yellows - they didn't vote for them and their days are numbered - quote Abhisit yesterday:

has said he was willing to disband Parliament but there must be conditions attached

[rixalex]

and the Thais don't want the yellows

The yellows are Thai, just as are the reds, in case you hadn't noticed.

[ChiangMaiFun]

and the Thais don't want the yellows

The yellows are Thai, just as are the reds, in case you hadn't noticed.

Don't want them politically - but we don't truly know until we have an.......................... (drum roll) election!

[rixalex]

and the Thais don't want the yellows

The yellows are Thai, just as are the reds, in case you hadn't noticed.

Don't want them politically - but we don't truly know until we have an.......................... (drum roll) election!

Yes, we don't know, but an election is due in about a year, so there's not too long to wait. It's what the country would be peacefully doing right now were it not for one man anxious to be repatriated with his ill-gotten gains.

[ChiangMaiFun]

and the Thais don't want the yellows

The yellows are Thai, just as are the reds, in case you hadn't noticed.

Don't want them politically - but we don't truly know until we have an.......................... (drum roll) election!

Yes, we don't know, but an election is due in about a year, so there's not too long to wait. It's what the country would be peacefully doing right now were it not for one man anxious to be repatriated with his ill-gotten gains.

I doubt they will wait... and why should they? they 'feel' that they have not voted for this government (technically legal though it may be) - it won't last a year - I doubt it anyway - it's not just those in Krung Thep I see red flags and ribbons everywhere up here

[VegasVic]

I find this article truly juvenile and fundamentally flawed in that is refers to achieving true democracy – well please tell me what that is and how it can be achieved?

It’s a dream and as the USA with Obamacare has just proven democracy is a joke. Most Americans and business were against the new health care scheme and so it should have never been approved. But USA politicians by the dozen were bought off to approve the bill. Totally ignoring the people that they represented. Is this the democracy you aspire too?

Obviously yes as the people hitting the Thailand streets now are being bought off. Most people want this to go away and get Thailand back on its feet and chugging on again. I am all for it.

BUT.

You cannot have democracy when the military continually takes over the country ( count the coups)

You cannot have democracy when you keep writing the Constitution (count the re writes)

You cannot have true democracy as it’s a dream

Dream on.

Democracy is not a joke, but it has its flaws like everything else in this world. The beautiful thing about Democracy in the U.S. at least is that every two years we can throw the bums out if they are not doing the peoples bidding, and come November 2nd 2010 the Democrats will pay a high price for their arrogance There are a few key aspects to Obamacare that the courts would have thrown out eventually anyway, but if the Republicans can gain enough seats in November and find few rational and reasonable Democrats, they can overturn Obamacare even after Obama vetos the overturn ( an overide of a Presidential veto would be poetic justice for this arrogant SOB) Obama is a classic one term President ala Jimmy Carter, and ironically the two of them will go down in infamy in U.S. Presidential history!

[brahmburgers]

I find this article truly juvenile and fundamentally flawed in that is refers to achieving true democracy – well please tell me what that is and how it can be achieved?

It’s a dream and as the USA with Obamacare has just proven democracy is a joke. Most Americans and business were against the new health care scheme and so it should have never been approved. But USA politicians by the dozen were bought off to approve the bill. Totally ignoring the people that they represented. Is this the democracy you aspire too?

Obviously yes as the people hitting the Thailand streets now are being bought off. Most people want this to go away and get Thailand back on its feet and chugging on again. I am all for it.

BUT.

You cannot have democracy when the military continually takes over the country ( count the coups)

You cannot have democracy when you keep writing the Constitution (count the re writes)

You cannot have true democracy as it’s a dream

Dream on.

Democracy is not a joke, but it has its flaws like everything else in this world. The beautiful thing about Democracy in the U.S. at least is that every two years we can throw the bums out if they are not doing the peoples bidding, and come November 2nd 2010 the Democrats will pay a high price for their arrogance There are a few key aspects to Obamacare that the courts would have thrown out eventually anyway, but if the Republicans can gain enough seats in November and find few rational and reasonable Democrats, they can overturn Obamacare even after Obama vetos the overturn ( an overide of a Presidential veto would be poetic justice for this arrogant SOB) Obama is a classic one term President ala Jimmy Carter, and ironically the two of them will go down in infamy in U.S. Presidential history!

Well, you're not shy about stating where you stand on the US political spectrum - just a bit to the right of Strom Thurmond. Obama will be a two term president and he'll win by a landslide next time around. Who do the Republicans have to run against him? Sarah Palin or Dick Cheney's daughter, or Romney again? Incidentally hard-core right winger Romney says publicly he doesn't like the newly passed health care reform, but it's nearly identical to the H.C. reform bill that was passed recently in his own state with his blessings. David Letterman puts it succintly in his recent monologues: Republicans don't like the current health care legislation because it will enable ordinary people to access basic care without spending ridiculously high amounts. Heck, it might also enable seniors to get pharma drugs for reasonable prices, and not have to sneak over to Canada like fugitives to get decent prices.

The pendulum will swing the other way in the upcoming mid-term elections. Voters could make their voice counted and not vote for the party of "NO" "NO" "NO" (guess which one that is?).

[rainman]

I'm sure that whatever journalist at The Nation wrote this article has already lost his job and has likely been executed for treason.

R.I.P.

[george]

This topic continues here:

Thailand's political landmark talks end without resolution:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Thailand-s-P...ks-t351224.html