Downer

[maprao]

You mean I can't live happily ever-after at the Nana Entertainment Plaza?

Of course you can, till the money runs out

Remember the way to deep and everlasting happiness is deep and everlasting money especially there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

:D This rings true. After in excess of 10 visits to Thailand.I looked for the Nana Plaza "fairy tail". After 3/4 weeks and $16000 (US) later the Bubble burst In NanaPlaza. The funny thing is I knew what I was doing most of time. I wonder if I will be able to do it again when I am 50 pot bellied ....annon . I hope so it certainly beat Spain France and Florida. I did have a mobile phone and a gold chain to show for it. However I lost them on the way back to "farang land" where is that lotto ticket?

Edited May 27, 2005 by maprao

[No beleeeeve!]

I think Thailand has some great things to offer once you know the "landmines" of living there. The original post was right on though, very accurate. People will no doubt have problems with the ugly side of the country though. WE hate to hear how much people don't love us foreigners. But, it is true. If we could come, drop off our ATM and credit cards at the airport and leave immediately, the locals would be that much happier.

A local friend summed up the Thai view of foreigners for me best "We want your money Mike, we don't want you."

BTW, I learned most of what I know about Thailand from Thai people, not from foreigners sitting in bars, as someone suggested. And like many others who post not so pretty views here, I was never burned by a BG, on a business deal, or anything else. Thailand is what it is.

All human generalizations are open to exceptions but the exceptions do not negate the rule.

Sorry, but true.

[camerata]

Camerata :  be carefull

Remember the outcome of the Laurence Godfrey v. Demon Internet Limited case ??? LG won !!!!!     

Demon never had a chance. It was a lose-lose situation for them. If they had backed down, their users would have hated them. So they left libellous postings on their server after being warned they were libellous.

[camerata]

You obviously enjoy living in Thailand.  Good for you. I did not.  Do you think that my experiences and opinions are somehow less valid than yours?

My point was that attitudes tend to colour the experiences and opinions.

And for the record, one of the main reasons I left, aside from the ludicrously convoluted immigration regulations, was because I did indeed feel that I was being treated like a serf by the Thai institutions for which I worked.

Well, if you're saying you had some bad experiences in Thailand, you'll get no argument from me. I've had a few myself. But from the time I first visited Thailand to the day I moved here, I spent 8 years visiting, planning and saving money. I came here for one reason - I liked the place - and I was fairly well prepared. That made it much easier to get through the hard times.

Over the past 20 years I've worked for family businesses, my own company, the government and as an employee in the private sector - fairly broad experience. Some of the time I was treated better than the Thais, most of the time I was treated the same, and never treated worse. Surprisingly, government service was the best in many ways.

I guess coming here because you actually like the place and find it interesting makes a big difference. That's what motivates you to learn the language and really understand the culture.

[Bilko]

BTW, I learned most of what I know about Thailand from Thai people, not from foreigners sitting in bars, as someone suggested.  And like many others who post not so pretty views here, I was never burned by a BG, on a business deal, or anything else.  Thailand is what it is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This should be interesting.

Please tell me one thing, why on earth do you stay in such a god forbidden place?

You learned most of wich you know about Thai people from Thai people ?

I refuse to believe that, everybody knows that farangs know more about Thailand and Thai people than Thai people could ever hope to know about Thai people.

Farangs are all knowing, they must be right, that is why they are whining and moaning all day, yet still stay here. ( figure that out ).

[Bilko]

Some of the time I was treated better than the Thais, most of the time I was treated the same, and never treated worse.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A good and reasoned response, obviously from a guy that has actually LIVED in Thailand, as opposed to a 3 week holiday ( expert ).

Farangs are treated really great in Thailand, if you doubt this, be an Asian guy in a city in UK for a day, see the difference.

[Bilko]

I could not have been said better !

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So like the Original Poster, you are just waiting for the next available flight out of this terrible country?

[NamKAheng]

To make things clear I am not a expat living in Thailand I am only travelling there for many years.

My comment come from farang eyes looking at the expats in business in Thailand that I have met over the years.

Lot of the expats (not all) I came across are total BS, after many years there they don't even care to learn the language (including reading or writting), they don't give a shit about the Thai culture and they all have the "my culture is better than yours" attitude and the "I am better than you" attitude. In their "I am superior" attitude they look down on their Thai workers and the Thai in general.

After living there many years they come embittered and the only thing they are talking about is how bad the Thai society is. Comming around those guys made me very uneasy about some of the expat, in fact I don't want to do business with them (a lot of them are in the tourist business) and I don't want to do anything with them.

I came to my own conclusion about those BS, is not the Thai who are the problem it is them who are the problem.

Why I came to this conclusion? Because I came across expat who are doing business in Thailand who integrate in Thai society who are recpectful of the people and the culture. They have a good life and they do good business in Thailand and the Thai people have a very good attitude around them.

Moving in Thailand is not more easy them moving to a other country, by moving there you have to accept that you are a immigrant that have to integrate in this new society like any other immigrant who are coming in farangland. Every farang want the immigrants who are coming to farandland to learn the language so they can integrate in the society but when they immigrate to Thailand they don't care to learn the language and the custom of Thailand.

Tell me, since when this is suppose to be more easy to move to a other country to do business?

[Rumpole]

You obviously enjoy living in Thailand.  Good for you. I did not.  Do you think that my experiences and opinions are somehow less valid than yours?

My point was that attitudes tend to colour the experiences and opinions.

And for the record, one of the main reasons I left, aside from the ludicrously convoluted immigration regulations, was because I did indeed feel that I was being treated like a serf by the Thai institutions for which I worked.

Well, if you're saying you had some bad experiences in Thailand, you'll get no argument from me. I've had a few myself. But from the time I first visited Thailand to the day I moved here, I spent 8 years visiting, planning and saving money. I came here for one reason - I liked the place - and I was fairly well prepared. That made it much easier to get through the hard times.

Over the past 20 years I've worked for family businesses, my own company, the government and as an employee in the private sector - fairly broad experience. Some of the time I was treated better than the Thais, most of the time I was treated the same, and never treated worse. Surprisingly, government service was the best in many ways.

I guess coming here because you actually like the place and find it interesting makes a big difference. That's what motivates you to learn the language and really understand the culture.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, but I refuse to commit a substantial portion of my life to a place I dislike, in the vague hope that things might ultimately get better. Leaving an intolerable situation does not make me a loser or a failure. Sitting around b*tching and griping about said situation, whilst failing to do anything to extricate myself from it, probably does.

Edited May 27, 2005 by Rumpole

[taxexile]

Wondering if you would add there are no "real Thai friends" to be had by farangs?

thats a very good point , but not entirely true.

i too have found it very difficult to make real frienships with thais in my many years here .

apart from my wifes extended family who i would trust with my life i have only got two or three thai "real" friends , they are female not male , and have turned out to be absolutely wonderful friends. i have never been able to "bond" in any way whatsoever with thai males.

they all booze too much , and i dont drink.

i agree with a lot of the "negativity" expressed here about thailand , but its no different to anywhere else , including my home country.

when you are in a minority and disappointments occur , its easy to make sweeping generalisations about race etc.

most of it is down to not understanding the way east asians operate.

thais will have the same experiences as we have at the hands of their fellow thais too.

i love it here , but i also find a lot of what goes on here pretty distasteful , the country, despite all its bluster about long traditions and buddhism is basically morally bankrupt and very corrupt , a paradise , it is not.

unless cheap booze and cooze is all you need in life , in which case then it probably is a paradise.

outside the family situation there is very little in the way of honesty as we westerners understand it.

its buyer beware every time.

we dont have the ability to read thais in the same way that we can read westerners.

and we will never understand the subtle nuances of behaviour that power the wheels of social intercourse here.

thats why we are always at a disadvantage.

and thats why there will always be sharp eyed thais lurking to pounce on the unwary falang and gain some advantage.

in the west there are the same sharp eyed westerners pouncing on newcomers to western society.

its nature , its a food chain and its the same anywhere.

too many people are suckered in by the smiles and easy going ways here and cant understand why things can go horribly wrong.

thankfully i dont need to earn a living here , and i dont envy anyone who has to do business with thais.

trying to cash a cheque or do a banking transaction here tells me all i need to know about the business systems here.

[Johpa]

The best way to live in Thailand is to be able to support yourself independently in some form or another. To keep a fairly low profile, i.e. do not become the best friend of a Thai Policeman, even though they are the best police money can buy (sorry could not resist that).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I lived in and around Chiang Mai for over a decade and have maintained a home there for almost another two decades. I agree one is best served by keeping a fairly low profile. But it is always good to have some acquaintances who are policeman. I don't mean to go out a drink with them and the boys, but make friends with them and their families (main wife or mia noi). They can be of great help.

[meadish_sweetball]

Wondering if you would add there are no "real Thai friends" to be had by farangs?

thats a very good point , but not entirely true.

i too have found it very difficult to make real frienships with thais in my many years here .

apart from my wifes extended family who i would trust with my life i have only got two or three thai "real" friends , they are female not male , and have turned out to be absolutely wonderful friends. i have never been able to "bond" in any way whatsoever with thai males.

they all booze too much , and i dont drink.

So far, I agree with you.

i agree with a lot of the "negativity" expressed here about thailand , but its no different to anywhere else , including my home country.

when you are in a minority and disappointments occur , its easy to make sweeping generalisations about race etc.

most of it is down to not understanding the way east asians operate.

I still agree with you.

thais will have the same experiences as we have at the hands of their fellow thais too.

Yes. Definitely. Thais get ripped off all the time if they are not wary. This is the business climate.

i love it here , but i also find a lot of what goes on here pretty distasteful , the country, despite all its bluster about long traditions and buddhism is basically morally bankrupt and very corrupt , a paradise , it is not.

unless cheap booze and cooze is all you need in life , in which case then it probably is a paradise.

If you look at the government of the country, yes, it has severe moral problems, and the roots run rather deep.

outside the family situation there is very little in the way of honesty as we westerners understand it.

its buyer beware every time.

In business, yes, often. Not always. If there is a personal bond that unites you with the seller through a common friend or family member, the whole business deal is often amazingly smooth. My experience is most Thais are not willing to risk their good names and their friendships when there is a chance they can get found out.

we dont have the ability to read thais in the same way that we can read westerners.

and we will never understand the subtle nuances of behaviour that power the wheels of social intercourse here.

True to some extent, but in my view too negative. It really depends how long you spend here and how much time you spend trying to integrate. Granted, the vast majority of farang do not spend enough time trying to be part of the culture or see things the Thai way. It is easier to put up a defensive attitude after having been burnt a few times.

thats why we are always at a disadvantage.

Not always. I find as a young Westerner who speaks fully communicative Thai, I am often treated better than indigenous Thais by service people. It is actually a source of embarrasement for me, because I don't think it's fair.

and thats why there will always be sharp eyed thais lurking to pounce on the unwary falang and gain some advantage.

in the west there are the same sharp eyed westerners pouncing on newcomers to western society.

Yes, this happens in every society - I was amazed to hear the stories my Kiwi friend told me about her adventures in Germany, Denmark and Sweden. I never believed there were so many touts targeting tourists in these countries, especially my own. Good eye-opener for me.

its nature , its a food chain and its the same anywhere.

too many people are suckered in by the smiles and easy going ways here and cant understand why things can go horribly wrong.

True again. There is a honeymoon period with Thai culture where people are as blind as people in love, and refuse to see any faults, try to construe everything to the Thai advantage and walk around with huge blinds to the negative things here.

thankfully i dont need to earn a living here , and i dont envy anyone who has to do business with thais.

trying to cash a cheque or do a banking transaction here tells me all i need to know about the business systems here.

I get extremely well treated at my bank - if you are not, I suggest you find a new office (not so much about the bank as about the bank office as an individual workplace). It is an honest piece of advice, because I know some banks are totally appalling - I have changed four times, but now I am finally very happy.

[Johpa]

I used to be a regular SCT poster at the time LG was a posting

I was an avid reader and lurker ( not poster )

at that time too, fun wasn't it ??

Last time I looked at SCT ( long time ago now ) it seemed to have

degenerated into one large flame war

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

TV seems the place to be now to get good information on Thailand. I do hope that it does degenerate the same way as SCT did. TV is moderated, so we should be OK.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Many of us older SCT hands, and older Thai hands, have migrated to these forums and most of the newsgroups have been supeceded by similar moderated message boards. Ah, all these young pups will never know the wild west days of the Internet when the news groups ruled.

As for LG, I talk to him a few times a year and he is doing well. You may not agree with him, but he is one of the most entertaining conversationalists I have ever met and I am quite happy to still call him a good friend after all these years. I sure would like to make another trip to the UK paid for by Demon. : )

[Neeranam]

trying to cash a cheque or do a banking transaction here tells me all i need to know about the business systems here.

I get extremely well treated at my bank - if you are not, I suggest you find a new office (not so much about the bank as about the bank office as an individual workplace). It is an honest piece of advice, because I know some banks are totally appalling - I have changed four times, but now I am finally very happy.

I also get treated extremely well. You have been here for years taxexile, you should know the score. Every time I walk into the bank when there are about 100 people waiting, I go straight up to the woman I befriended and cash my paycheck, no id required. In any bank I don't have to wait , if I am in a rush. Maybe you are too honest for this

thats why we are always at a disadvantage.

Nonsense, if you are clever enough you can turn being a farnang into an advantage in many many situations, especially out of Bangkok.

[buadhai]

Many of us older SCT hands, and older Thai hands, have migrated to these forums and most of the newsgroups have been supeceded by similar moderated message boards.  Ah, all these young pups will never know the wild west days of the Internet when the news groups ruled.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's a shame that SCT degenerated into such a mess. Thank goodness for good mods.

I used to be quite active in the newsgroups and see that my first post to SCT (according to Google) was in November of 99 and my first to rec.travel.asia was in 95!

It was sure different back then, wasn't it?

[Richard Hall]

It is this: on the whole, Thais don't like foreigners very much.

Neither do I and that's why I live here exclusively among Thais and avoid the foreigner populated areas whenever possible.

But the inevitability of trashing anyone who comments here that he thinks this place is something less than heaven is getting really tiresome. Good for you, Rumpole, for not letting it pass unchallenged yet one more time.

Thailand is not heaven but it is not ###### either. For most DECENT people LIVING and WORKING here it is the ideal home and possibly they can not think of any other better place to stay.

Eventually, however, we have something to agree about. The tiresome aspect. It is indeed tiring to hear foreigners constantly bitching about Thailand. If people don't like it here that's absolutely okay but why always moan about it?

I never got a kick out of Germany and that's why I left and came here but on the other hand I'm not trying to bring her down either by endlessly listing all the disadvantages there.

There are Thais that don't like foreigners but there are others that like them more than their own fellow people but it surely is always a matter of individuality, personality and characteristics on either side.

To eventually understand a culture it is absolutely crucial to know the language (= translates as fluency and not just squeaking a couple of words in a castrated guinea pig pattern) and spend quality time with quality people. Thailand faces the major problem that it attracts lots of goofballs and pissheads from all over the world and herself is not free from local goofballs and pissheads either. Which is not meant to be polemic but unfotunately reflects the truth.

All is surely fine if the loudmouthed species just helps to prevent more of it's own kind coming in but it becomes a bit irritating if decent advise seeking people get confused and turned off.

Eventually, particularly at the beginning it is never easy to accustom to a new environment and new culture and it is mainly a matter of personality if one can cope with being the only black colored sheep in a community of whites (or the other way around in terms of the colors) but if one actually manages, all of a sudden in the eyes of the others the black becomes gray and with time progressing lighter and lighter...

Just empty bla, bla and nonsense? "Nope, just personal experience" said the cream colored sheep with just a few remaining black strings of hair in his fur and took a happy &lt;deleted&gt; on a green meadow somewhere in Thailand among a heap of pure white companions.

Cheers,

Richard

[amal2029]

It’s ingrained in them from an early age to believe that they are the never-colonized master race of Asia (yes they really think that)

Complete rubbish, IMO. I've been here 28 years and have never heard a Thai express such an idea, whether in words or action. There may be a minority who think like this, but this statement alone shows off the OP's callow take on Thailand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

U may never heard that but for my 10 years staying here I heard that crap many times. Sure I am going to hear it many more times...

[taxexile]

tax

its buyer beware every time.

meadish

In business, yes, often. Not always. If there is a personal bond that unites you with the seller through a common friend or family member, the whole business deal is often amazingly smooth. My experience is most Thais are not willing to risk their good names and their friendships when there is a chance they can get found out.

i stand corrected on that one , with an introduction to a seller or provider of some service then thais are often unwilling to risk their names , reputation etc.

richard hall

There are Thais that don't like foreigners but there are others that like them more than their own fellow people but it surely is always a matter of individuality, personality and characteristics on either side.

To eventually understand a culture it is absolutely crucial to know the language (= translates as fluency and not just squeaking a couple of words in a castrated guinea pig pattern) and spend quality time with quality people. Thailand faces the major problem that it attracts lots of goofballs and pissheads from all over the world and herself is not free from local goofballs and pissheads either. Which is not meant to be polemic but unfotunately reflects the truth.

spot on

neerenram

I also get treated extremely well. You have been here for years taxexile, you should know the score. Every time I walk into the bank when there are about 100 people waiting, I go straight up to the woman I befriended and cash my paycheck, no id required. In any bank I don't have to wait , if I am in a rush. Maybe you are too honest for this

my innate britishness prevents me from jumping the queue i'm afraid , but doesn't stop me from complaining loudly when someone else does.

my problems with the banks are not one of service , the tellers are usually polite enough , its one of procedures. everything takes so long and involves signatures , countersignatures , filling in of nasty little slips of paper.

walking over to the desk of the next person in the chain of command for authorisation , and then again to the next person for some more checking and signing.

its all so frustratingly antiquated and inefficient

Nonsense, if you are clever enough you can turn being a farnang into an advantage in many many situations, especially out of Bangkok.

there is some truth in that.

Edited May 28, 2005 by taxexile

[kreon]

about 10 years ago, before i started doing business in asia, i bought a book called "lords of the rim" by sterling seagrave

this is a must read for anyone wanted to do business here, it will give you a deep insight in the chinese/thai business mentality

i have -with this knowledge- being able to do great business in asia, as it gave me a better understanding of with whom i was dealing with, surely i've had bad deals, but that was due to me not making the right decisions, but also have a lot of good deals, that far outweight the bad ones

[Neeranam]

my innate britishness prevents me from jumping the queue i'm afraid , but doesn't stop me from complaining loudly when someone else does.

I understand, and I don't do it if there are other expats around, ir infuriates me too when others do it. Thai people don't mind. Be very careful taxeile who you complain too, there are some dangerous people out there who would never wait in a bank queue.

[Ajarn]

It’s ingrained in them from an early age to believe that they are the never-colonized master race of Asia (yes they really think that)

Complete rubbish, IMO. I've been here 28 years and have never heard a Thai express such an idea, whether in words or action. There may be a minority who think like this, but this statement alone shows off the OP's callow take on Thailand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

U may never heard that but for my 10 years staying here I heard that crap many times. Sure I am going to hear it many more times...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've heard the 'never colonized' part from a number of young Thais, but I've never heard the 'master race' bit expressed. But there is a lot of nationalistic pride and xenophobia here, and that gets expressed in various ways. Not much different than any other culture or nation, in my experience.

When I grew up in America, I believed, as did many others, that America was the greatest nation on Earth, and the world would be a better place if all would follow the American way. It was pounded into us by the government, media, and society. Canadians were nice, but a bit thick, perhaps. Mexicans made good gardners, but that's about it. We told rude jokes about Poles, Brits, Asians, Italians, Indians, new immigrants.. Nasty Jokes about everybody else except us (Unless they were southerners, New Yorkers, Mormons, or females, of course!)

When I started traveling, I quickly learned that are many ways to live happily, and that the American Way has holes and really isn't the best way for all...

I also saw that the same ignorances and predjudices I knew, were most everywhere else, too.

Education and experience can help some to have a broader vision of things, but some folks seem to get more from keeping all their predjudices and ignorances intact. They have it at home, and they take it with them to other countries....

I don't really understand some of these folks choosing to stay mired in their shit. Such a waste of your life, in my experience. And they are such a bore to be around, or listen to, when they're in their 'zone'...

Edited May 28, 2005 by Ajarn

[Vit42]

If you are rich and are sensible with money, then go ahead.  If an international company or similar offers you a high salary job in Thailand then fine.  If you are retired or have steady funds from aboard and want to live modestly on those funds, go ahead, but watch yourself.  And if you’re a young dude traveling around the world, and you want to spend some time in Thailand teaching or whatever for experience, then that’s OK too.

TRUE ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD, NOTHING ELIGHTENING HERE.

If you don’t fall into these categories then “don’t” consider it for a moment.  Many middle-aged westerners in particular (including professionals) like the idea of living there, having a business or making some money and “enjoying life” in Thailand.  But very few make it. (Forget about western restaurant or bar owners and alike you might meet in Thailand boasting about their good life there.  It is common for faltering foreigners to keep up appearances).  Mostly they end up broke or crazed, sometimes both, then they leave.

SOUNDS LIKE A PERSONAL PROBLEM. EXPRESSION OF OPINION OR PERCEPTION AS IF THEY WERE FACTS DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE.

Thai business, visa and residency laws get you in the end.  The “Thai way” will get you in the end.  Have a minor run-in with a wealthy or important Thai and your status and possibly your life will be at risk.  Their whole culture is geared around making sure that foreigners pursuing individual efforts are not successful.  It’s ingrained in them from an early age to believe that they are the never-colonized master race of Asia (yes they really think that) and their mythology runs so deep you’ll never budge it. 

EVERY COUNTRY HAS RULES, LAWS, AND REGULATIONS. RICH PEOPLE HAVE STATUS IN EVERY COUNTRY. THAIS MAY BE EGOCENTRIC BUT SO ARE MOST PEOPLE ABOUT THEIR COUNTRY OF ORIGIN. BUSINESS PRACTICES ARE ARCHAIC AND CORRUPTION IS RAMPANT IN THAILAND BUT NOT ANY MORE THAN THE REST OF THE DEVELOPING WORLD AND THEN SOME.

Remember, in Thailand you’ll never have any real business, legal or ownership rights.  But Thai’s can go to your country (very possibly) and buy and own anything they can get their hands on (because of the more tolerant business laws).  To Thai’s, this is just further evidence of how clever they are, and how foolish are the foreigners to go to Thailand.

AS THAILAND CONTINUES TO DEVELOP, OWNERSHIP LAWS WILL CONTINUE TO ADOPT BEST PRACTICES, AS IS ALREADY EVIDENT IN RECENT YEARS. BTW, NO COUNTRY ALLOWS DEFACTO OPEN ACCESS TO BUSINESS OWNERSHIP AS STATED BY THE POSTER.

Remember too, that Thailand is dominated by a comparatively small military-industrial elite.  They have all the power and most of the wealth in the country.  The idea of western foreigners living in the country and achieving wealth and status through individual entrepreneurial efforts is seen as a threat to the hegemony that they have over the Thai underclass - the bulk of the population.  For this reason, it is never allowed to happen.

MILITARY ELITISM IS TRUE OF MANY COUNTRIES INCLUDING THE U.S., BRITAIN, AND SO FORTH. IN DEVELOPING COUNTRIES, THE MILITARY IS DOMINANT. THE ADVANTAGES OF THE MILITARY IN THAILAND DOES NOT RESTRICT INDIVIDUAL ENTREPRENEREULISM. PROTECTIONISM AGAINST FOREIGN DOMINATION OF THE LOCAL MARKET IS APPARENT IN MANY COUNTRIES.

Think of Thailand, for westerners, as being a bit like a casino.  A casino is a place with a touch of excitement, the lure of good fortune / the good life, and a place for fun, even with a bit of a risk.  Go to a casino every now and then for fun and that’s OK.  Go there everyday all-day and you will ultimately lose, because the House Advantage will always get you.  So it is in Thailand.  The Thai “House Advantage” will get you.  They make sure of it.

AND WHAT COUNTRY DOES NOT GRANT IT'S CITIZENS "HOUSE ADVANTAGE"?

Of course, if going to Thailand with all your money and slowly losing it and ending up teaching English for a pittance (because that’s about all you can do), either illegally or working legally but being treated like a serf by Thai institutions, appeals to you then go ahead.  And running around the country several times a year getting visas, or always being at the mercy of authorities on visa matters might be your bag.  If so, then go ahead, at least you’ll be able to spend your nights at cheap restaurants sharing your impoverishment and frustration with other exploited western teachers.  If not, think seriously.

In case you are thinking, let me say that I am not a former go-go bar owner gone bust, I have not lost my all doing business with Thai’s, no I haven’t been cheated of everything by a bar-girl, no I haven’t been reduced to the indignity of teaching English for a pittance.  I have my own money, have spent a lot of time in Thailand, and have done some business there, have observed the experiences of a lot of foreigners, can see what goes on, and have enough concern to want to tell others about it.

AND I THOUGH MOST PEOPLE WHO GO ABROAD TO TEACH ENGLISH DO FOR THE EXPERIENCE...NOT AS A LAST RESORT WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS!

If my words can prevent even one westerner of modest means from selling up and going to “enjoy life” in Thailand (and getting shafted in the end) then that will be something.  Don’t make the mistake of thinking that as a foreigner (even with professional skills) you can “make a contribution” to Thailand, no matter how good your intentions or needed your skills may be.  Your contribution will never be welcomed, only your money.  There is a saying in Thai that captures it well: “farang roo mark my dee” - foreigners who know too much [about Thailand] are no good.  Gullible tourists, however, are great.

ANCIENT THAI SECRET REVEALED!

So, go to Thailand as a tourist if you like, enjoy what you enjoy there, but don’t be taken in by the culture or people, as many westerners have, and don’t under any circumstances give up anything back home to go and stay there unless you are financially secure for life, or know exactly what you are doing.

There is a tradition of resident foreigners in Thailand not telling you the truth about the country because they don’t like to admit to themselves and to others about the mistake they have made in moving there.  But especially now, with the financial mess Thailand has got itself into through a mixture of greed, incompetence, arrogance and corruption, and the prospect of difficult times ahead (to say the least) it is time for plain speaking.

BLAME THE THAIS, THE TOURISTS, AND THE RESIDENT FOREIGNERS, BUT NOT YOURSELF FOR YOUR OWN INCOMPETENCE?

A final comment to anyone who strongly disagrees with these comments.  Unless you have lived, worked and conducted business in Thailand for many years, I’m not interested.  The views of “oh how can you say that, Thailand is really great” 2 week tourists carry no weight with those of us who know Thailand and Thai’s well.

Please comment and advise.

Tyee

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

SOME TRUTH MIXED IN WITH A LOT OF B.S. MAKES FOR WHAT SEEMS LIKE A VALID ARGUMENT AGAINST ANYONE SUCCEEDING IN THAILAND UNLESS THEY ARE A GENERAL IN THE ROYAL THAI ARMY. THIS IS CLASSIC BLAME IT ON THE OTHER GUY MENTALITY INSTEAD OF REALIZING LIFE IS FULL OF INEQUALITIES WHEREVER YOU GO. "CHANGE WHAT YOU CAN, ACCEPT WHAT YOU CAN'T, AND KNOW THE DIFFERENCE"... TO PARAPHRASE SOMEONE MUCH WISER THAN ME.

[Ajarn]

my innate britishness prevents me from jumping the queue i'm afraid , but doesn't stop me from complaining loudly when someone else does.

I understand, and I don't do it if there are other expats around, ir infuriates me too when others do it. Thai people don't mind. Be very careful taxeile who you complain too, there are some dangerous people out there who would never wait in a bank queue.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I feel Thais are often less likely to say they don't mind, but they often do mind, nonetheless, even with, or maybe even especially with, farang que-jumpers

[plachon]

What a downer! and I thought I was going to learn some new juicy info about Alexander's deepest insights into LOS on this thread.

[camerata]

and thats why there will always be sharp eyed thais lurking to pounce on the unwary falang and gain some advantage.

Or any outsider! Anyone who thinks Thais especially target farang should read the famous Tales of Sri Thanonchai - Thailand's artful trickster, part of the country's folklore. It's published by Asia Books. Essential reading if you want to understand the Thai character.

[camerata]

You may not agree with him, but he is one of the most entertaining conversationalists I have ever met and I am quite happy to still call him a good friend after all these years.

Not much of a writer, though, judging by the atrocious "book" on Thailand he was trying to publish.

[camerata]

my innate britishness prevents me from jumping the queue i'm afraid , but doesn't stop me from complaining loudly when someone else does.

For most westerners, queuing makes sense because its based on the idea that everyone is equal and so queuing is fair and efficient for all. But in Thailand's hierarchical society, everyone is on a different level and the more senior in the community are accorded the honour of going first. So the concept of queuing is pretty alien to Thais.

And when Thais are surrounded by total strangers (such as when driving a car) they tend to revert to a me-first mentality because no one knows anyone else's position is society. Another thing is that most Thais would use their staff, messengers or servants to go to places where there are queues, such as post offices. They wouldn't go themselves.

Anyway, most banks now have orderly roped off queues or ticket systems, so the situation is improving.

In the dark days when work permits had to be renewed at the Interior Ministry's office in Din Daeng, there would always be a crowd of Thai agents and messengers pushing their way to the front. No queue at all. What usually happened to me was that some supervisor would see me standing at the back of the crowd looking miserable, and come and take care of my WP renewal herself.

In the equally dark days of the much-reviled "tax clearance certificate," at the Rajadamnoen Revenue Dept office I just paid an agent 200 baht to take care of getting me through the rabble to pay my tax.

[buadhai]

You may not agree with him, but he is one of the most entertaining conversationalists I have ever met and I am quite happy to still call him a good friend after all these years.

Not much of a writer, though, judging by the atrocious "book" on Thailand he was trying to publish.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Speaking of books, might I suggest one that was given to me recently. It's called Siam Smile/s by "Hugh Watson" (not his real name) and published by Bangkok Books. Don't be put off by the silly cover or horrible editing. The author, a sometimes participant in TV(?), has been in LOS over a decade and spent most of his time in Bangkok as a university lecturer. He's now retired in CM. His writing style is sometimes obtuse, but he has some wonderful, humorous insights into life in LOS. As he puts it in the introduction: "satiric, sardonic and ironic insights... into the lighter side of life in Thailand."

Anyway, it's an enjoyable read and he does have some interesting things to say about queue jumping.

And, yes, the author is an acquaintance of mine.

[Ajarn]

For most westerners, queuing makes sense because its based on the idea that everyone is equal and so queuing is fair and efficient for all. But in Thailand's hierarchical society, everyone is on a different level and the more senior in the community are accorded the honour of going first. So the concept of queuing is pretty alien to Thais.

I don't share that opinion, or those experiences. Of course Thais know about queing, and they do it quite well,- when that system is clear. I've watched other Thais in PO ques, for example, paying close attention to who is next. Just because they don't bother to jump up and beat a que-jumper, like some other folks, does not mean they don't know the concept of ques...

I'm sure you can think of examples of crowds in your country not always automatically forming orderly ques, and the same can, and does, happen here. Like in your country, when the system to follow is clear and supported by the bank, PO, whatever, people will naturally follow. If they sense no controls, and that some are exploiting that, then they are more likely to join the chaos, simply out of survival. I've been in those situations numerous times, and I'll bet most others have, too.

And when Thais are surrounded by total strangers (such as when driving a car) they tend to revert to a me-first mentality because no one knows anyone else's position is society

Again, I feel differently about that, and can think of many many occasions where the opposite was true.

You did say 'tend to', but I feel it's a minority of Thai drivers who drive that way- though the ones that do will likely stand out more in your mind!

'Might is Right' is the rule most Thai drivers tend to follow, and for very sensible reasons of safety. Ignoring that, and forgetting everyone else, will lead you to an accident faster than any other way I can think of. Others are assuming you know the ropes, and act accordingly. It's the predictabilty of other drivers that helps create a safer driving scene, so the 'Might is Right' thnking makes the best sense on the road... A motorcyclist knows if he hits me, he's going to hurt more than me. He also knows my visibilty of him isn't as good as his, nor is my abilty to manuvere my vehicle, so he (hopefully) sensibly krieng jais me for his own safety.

For me in my truck, I know that that bus is a danger to me, and all the things relevant to the motorcyclist are now relevant to me in regards to that bus....

At uncontrolled intersections, it's the car that arrives first, or the biggest mass, that goes first... Like when one group of motorcycles becomes a big enough mass, they will move off in a tight group to maintain their mass and thereby signalling that intention to any cross traffic, who will only try to move out once the mass has passed.

Of course we can all think of times where we've witnessed exceptions to this, too. Driving in Thailand has always been an adventure!

[Neeranam]

QUOTE

For most westerners, queuing makes sense because its based on the idea that everyone is equal and so queuing is fair and efficient for all. But in Thailand's hierarchical society, everyone is on a different level and the more senior in the community are accorded the honour of going first. So the concept of queuing is pretty alien to Thais.

I don't share that opinion, or those experiences.

I share Cameras opinion. Most Thais have not got the same time concept as us.

Ajarn, you worked in a university, didn't you, where teachers are very respected.

Did you ever go into a PO where your students were queuing and they didn't let you go first? I wouldn't think so.