Why Don't Thai Mothers Teach Their Daughters?

[tw25rw]

I suspect they want granchildren and want the daughter married off and off their hands. Happens in the west too. My aunt and uncle (who are religious and admittedly a bit odd) encouraged their daughters to get knocked up. In fact I think thats why the aunt and uncle got married.

[IanForbes]

You are probably telling the truth, but I am too much of a cynic to take this in as fact and stopped believing in Santa Claus years ago.

Nothing personal, it`s just the way I am. With the people I have known, it`s always been give something to gain something, or perhaps I have mixed with the wrong people.

I won't disagree with your position of cynicism. I have been a cynic too many times myself. But, I truly don't want anything in return. I finally came to a place in life where I actually get more pleasure from helping others than always looking out for myself. But, I'm just enough of a cynic to never offer or spend more than I'm willing to accept as a total loss. I can walk away from anything with no regrets, other than a bit of sadness. I recently took a couple of Thai boys and their big sister to the city swimming pool, and for burgers at MacDonalds afterwards. The two boys ( 8 and 10) had never eaten at McD before and the joy on their faces was all the pleasure I needed to see. Seeing their little hands wrapped around a Big Mac as big as their head was a hoot. What I spent on their day was more than their family makes in a week, but it was about what I sometimes spend in the bar for one night. And, I'm not mentioning this to make myself out as a good guy. It's because I get personally rewarded just by helping others. I'm not going to live forever and my own children are well looked after, so what better place to help people in need than Thailand. North America already has social programs to help people who want to help themselves.

I'm not doing it for religious reasons either. I don't like any any religion. I have seen too much destruction caused in the name of various religions.

I know you can't change the world or change biology. Sex is a normal biological process. I am no different than anyone else and I enjoy an active sex life. But, I DO have a choice. A young girl of 14 or15 from a poor family doesn't have much of a choice if she gets pregnant. But I still say that proper parenting goes a long way in preventing unwanted pregnancies.

[rick75]

My wifes 19 year old daughter fell pregnant out of wedlock, at the time She was studying nursing, I asked my wife had the daughter thought about aborting the baby and continuing Her studies...." Oh no honey She could never do that". Its only 12 months on and the fellow is still around, I guess only time will tell if She ends up a statistic of a rotten Thai man or He sticks around.

I think like others have said, in the West She would almost have certainly aborted the baby and continued Her studies. I feel sad for Her She was at the edge of breaking out of the cycle. She was on Her way to a good education, job and having the opportunity to make choices with Her life.

[powderpuff]

AIDS is more of a problem in Thailand. They can stick teenage pregnancy on the backburner until they stop being Asia's number one AIDS rate nation.

Same solution to both problems. Condoms. Come on Meechai - get busy.

[maccaroni man]

AIDS is more of a problem in Thailand. They can stick teenage pregnancy on the backburner until they stop being Asia's number one AIDS rate nation.

spot on, there is a village in the north that has over a 50% rate of hiv infection much of it coming from family to family relatonships. <deleted> is that? of course that might have changed by now.

[happylarry]

No mention so far about the mindset of Thai women regarding having children for the future.

It is part of Thai culture that a woman has to have children in order to look after them when they themselves are old. (same way as we ferangs think about pensions)

Whether the husband stays or goes is irrelevant so long as they have some children by him.

Even though you are talking about young teenagers, the culture is still there and I am sure the pregnancys are not frowned upon as much as they would be in a western culture. Probably another reason why all the parents and grandparents are so pleased to look after the children while their mothers go off to earn money.

HL

[jpolten]

Why are you mouthing of at Thai culture when you have the likes of the catholics that say no condoms while they protect there own that molest children?

Some time ago in the west the catholic church said it was a sin to use condoms ect ect.....but who listens to the church any more??

Ive spent some time in west Africa and the catholic church is telling people that it is a sin to use condoms and I've been told by some of the locals that

the church is telling them there is no such thing as HIV/AIDS!!

Another thing,in thailand and africa do you think condoms are available in rural areas,and if they were,do you think they have the money to pay for them?

[GuestHouse]

I think the reason why many Thai women perpetuate this cycle of unmarried/child pregnancy despite having been through it themselves is because they - The mother soon to become grandmother benefits from their daughters getting pregnant.

It's a meal ticket to have grandchildren to raise, just like it's a meal ticket to grab child welfare in the west.

But it's not just he women is it - I know a Thai woman who raised her son by herself - her boyfriend having done a runner before the child was born.

Lo and behold, the son is now a father at 15 years old and the mother is ranting about the girl trying to trap her son.

----

Ian,

Helping out is to be admired, but I'm not sure that giving money direct to families is the right thing. My wife and I have for the past twenty years donated money to a local school to pay fees for books, uniforms to help keep children in school. One child per year and we let the school choose - Their less emotional look at the kids helps pick kids who will take the chance they are given. And it is a chance they are given, not money.

[sarahsbloke]

Why don't Thai mothers teach their daughters the facts of life? Most of them have already learned the hard way themselves. So, why don't Thai mothers teach their daughters to use condoms BEFORE their girls have sex? The girls who get themselves pregnant and then have to go off to work in bars certainly make sure their customers wear condoms, so why not before they get pregnant? It seems that most Thai men/boys don't or won't wear condoms, so shouldn't the girls insist... no rubber, no honey?

Most of the girls in bars wear condoms with customers, but not with their boyfriend (and they always have someone they consider a boyfriend). I've always found the behaviour of the girls to be entirely consistent and many are more than happy to have a child with their current boyfriend. In Thailand where there is no social services a daughter is your pension, so the more you have, the better your later years will be. The idea that sex never happened in the past is completely wrong. 'Face' means you can do whatever you like as long as nobody finds out about it (or you never admit to it).

I personally don't believe that AIDs is so widespread in Thailand as some would like you to believe.

My friends and I always have our gfs tested, and none of us have found anyone with a positive result yet. (although there must me some around)

Between the bunch of us the sample group was not insignificant.

Edited April 5, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[aussiebebe]

I think the OP IanForbes is to admired for his help and support and having read this thread I think 'Guesthouse' has come closest to the answer and deserves credit for helping Thais indirectly so it's really a self-less good deed. For some Thai mothers, it's in their best interest to perpetuate the cycle. Part of the reason is it's best to remember how quickly Thailand has developed; think of the quality of health care now, compared with the early 90s, and think of how some women might want their daughters to have babies while they are still healthy.

I'm sure all mother's teach their daughters, but you know how difficult teenagers are! girls get so pressured by boys to have sex,

The question we should be asking is whether more teenage mothers in rural communities would have abortions if they could?

[bonobo]

I am not sure of the knowledge base in the West, although I have read reports that are not too complimentary (e.g.over half of high school girls in one US survey thought you cannot catch a STD through anal sex, so that is why they did that instead of vaginal sex.)

But I have found a significant degree of biological ignorance throughout SE Asia.  My current relationship is a university graduate who has a professional job, but she swears that in order to get pregnant, you need to have sex in the first 7 days after her menses stops, then the next 7 days are "safe,"  then the following 7 days are fertile again.

Some time ago, another woman had been after me to break her virginity for quite some time, and I finally relented.  This was three days after her menses.  After we were done, she immediately looked at me and asked "Am I pregnant now?"

Just last week, a friend-of-a-friend e-mailed me because she was confused.  She wanted to know just what contraception was ("Will it keep me from getting pregnant?") and what her options were.  Her Thai boyfriend was pressuring her, and with two sisters pregnant out of wedlock, she wanted to avoid that.  At least she was asking someone, but she could not gather the courage to ask another Thai.

[sarahsbloke]

But I have found a significant degree of biological ignorance throughout SE Asia. My current relationship is a university graduate who has a professional job, but she swears that in order to get pregnant, you need to have sex in the first 7 days after her menses stops, then the next 7 days are "safe," then the following 7 days are fertile again.

What a coincidence!

This morning my wife informed me the exact opposite, she can't get pregnant in the first 7 days after menses stops, but the next 7 days are just right ............... (but maybe farm girls who left school at 12 have different biological workings to university graduates)

At age 34 she also didn't know about the morning after pill, and didn't know about the 5 year contraceptive implants.

After a quick google ... it appears both ladies got it wrong with counting day 1, but your graduate had the fertile/infertile times completely wrong

How Do You Use the Standard Days Method?

The Standard Days Method is fairly straightforward to use. All you need to do is keep track of how long your menstrual cycle is, in order to determine when Days 8 through 19 occur.

* When the first day of your period arrives, this is Day1 of your cycle. Mark this on your calendar.

* Between Day 1 and Day 7, it is highly unlikely that you will become pregnant, so it is safe to participate in sexual intercourse without using birth control.

* Between Day 8 and Day 19, you are at your most fertile. You and your partner should abstain from sex or you should use an alternate type of birth control, such as a condom.

* Between Day 20 and 32 you are unlikely to get pregnant, so you can resume sexual intercourse.

Edited April 5, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[PeaceBlondie]

My daughters all got pregnant out of wedlock - at ages 17, 15 and 21. The younger ones married and are still with the same husbands, up to 26 years later. The 21-year old didn't marry her psycho partner, but no abortions. Your mileage will vary.

[mark45y]

My second wife and I had two daughters. Both intelligent, beautiful and spirited. My wife was a good woman and her number one priority was taking care of her daughters and number two putting money in her bank account. She has done a very good job of both. My wife was a kick boxer and she made sure both girls received 5 years plus of martial arts training. The oldest over ten years of training and was nationally ranked.

When mom and the daughters got in a fight it was like a boxing match. They would put on their uniforms go out in the back yard and slug it out. Mom always won.

She put the fear of god into both girls about getting pregnant. She regularly threatened boyfriends with death and dismemberment if they tried to violate either daughter.

She kept a sawed off 16 gauge double barreled shotgun under her bed.

At 14 years of age she made sure both girls were taking birth control pills.

She left nothing to chance.

Both girls are still single in their 20’s and working at decent jobs and as far as I know have a relatively fulfilling life.

My first Thai girlfriend for three years let her parents raise her daughter. The girl had a taxi driver boyfriend at 14 and lived with him in Bangkok. He was a drunk so she left him. There was some discussions with the family about her being a mia noi to a well to do Thai country gentleman but nothing came of it. Eventually she got a job dancing in Pattaya at 18. At 19 she met a wealthy (by Thai standards) oil supervisor (a Thai man).

She got pregnant and married, I think in that order. I don’t know if the Thai guy new she had danced in Pattaya.

As far as conservative women from Siam are concerned that is a folk tale with little substance in history.

I don’t think education will change much. Most of the Thai women I meet would rather party than study. Probably better to increase Thai owned infrastructure to provide more skilled and semi skilled jobs. Allow more foreign investment in basic industries.

Thai guys won’t run away if they have a decent job and then the pregnant women will be able to keep a father in the house. A good job will also cut down on the drinking.

Being married in Thailand is not such a chore as it is in the west because of the prevalence of alternatives to keep life interesting even if the seven year itch has kicked in.

Given the pressure release of Karaoke bars and mia nois I doubt if I would have gotten a divorce in Thailand as I did in the west.

The answer to many problems such as AIDS, teen pregnancy and many others is much simpler than people make it out to be.

If Thailand produced its own motorcycles, cars and computers it would be a big start in the right direction.

Find some rogue Honda employees and let them start a car business in Thailand. The same with computers. Let them buy land and factories as long as the money stays in Thailand. Start making computer chips and put up a couple of steel mills.

Start granting Thai citizenship to occupations that will benefit Thailand. Engineers, technicians and the like.

It would be nice if you could have native Thai people at the top of Thai businesses but since corruption seems ingrained in the culture at least for the short term the managers will have to be from another country. However Thailand could keep the money local if they allowed these managers citizenship.

[IanForbes]

I think the reason why many Thai women perpetuate this cycle of unmarried/child pregnancy despite having been through it themselves is because they - The mother soon to become grandmother benefits from their daughters getting pregnant.

It's a meal ticket to have grandchildren to raise, just like it's a meal ticket to grab child welfare in the west.

But it's not just he women is it - I know a Thai woman who raised her son by herself - her boyfriend having done a runner before the child was born.

Lo and behold, the son is now a father at 15 years old and the mother is ranting about the girl trying to trap her son.

----

Ian,

Helping out is to be admired, but I'm not sure that giving money direct to families is the right thing. My wife and I have for the past twenty years donated money to a local school to pay fees for books, uniforms to help keep children in school. One child per year and we let the school choose - Their less emotional look at the kids helps pick kids who will take the chance they are given. And it is a chance they are given, not money.

Good post, guesthouse. You know what I'm talking about when I mention choosing a charity that will do the most good. I do like having the hands on approach because I can actually see what is being done. But it's also more frustrating when you see some results go bad. I know the ice and water business that I set up with the family was a success (in the totally Thai community). But, that happened because the older sister was running the business, and she is much more responsible than the mother of the three kids.

As I said before... some you win and some you lose.

Thanks for the frank and well thought out answers by everyone. Just like everywhere in the world there are exceptions to every case. The more you converse with many people the more information you gather from other people's experiences in a culture completely different than our own.

[cognos]

Ian is altruistic, and that is commendable.

In Canada, the % of teenage pregnancies goes up exponentially ( and alcohol abuse, and drug use, and sexual abuse) each degree north of the 49th parallel ( the boundary between Canada and the U.S)...in this scenario, using a condom, or not, is due in part to socio economic reasons and the concomitant lifestyes that go along with it ( excessive drinking, for example).

Sweden has a population under 9 million, so they are obviously cognizant that birth control is important, so condom use is common.

With regards to Thailand, the ingrained habits will be hard to change..it seems that families value children to a degree that large families are the norm. In general, less educated women will tend to have more babies, hence their degree of caution with regards to using condoms will not be a high priority. Unfortunately, acting before thinking out the LONG TERM consequences, especially in the heat of the moment, happens all over the world, with predictable results.

[misterjag]

Lack of self esteem is probably the biggest issue.

[Tonto21]

Is the OP seriously saying that he supports the family out of the goodness of his heart? Surely there must be a relationship in there, somewhere.

Yes. Do you find that hard to believe? The family I help suppprt lives in Kanchanaburi. I stay in Chiang Mai and only visit the family once a year to see how the children are doing. I care nothing for the mother, but try to help the children. I get pleasure out of helping people try to help themselves. I ask for nothing else in return. I DO believe in charity providing the charity DOES help people, other than momentarily. If I have enough to live a comfortable life then I don't mind sharing what little remains. If people should try to make me into an ATM machine then they lose out and I end my help. Some people are wise enough to take advantage of charity and others aren't. In Canada, charity is provided through a semi-social welfare system that is provided by taxing the middle income earners. In Thailand, people have to rely on families for support.

You are probably telling the truth, but I am too much of a cynic to take this in as fact and stopped believing in Santa Claus years ago.

Nothing personal, it`s just the way I am. With the people I have known, it`s always been give something to gain something, or perhaps I have mixed with the wrong people.

What whould "IanForbes" gain from not telling you the truth?

I also send money every month for a young lad who has learning difficulties, he’s 11 years old but has a mental age of around 6 (oxygen starvation at birth) I know the family, very poor but in my opinion good honest people. The lad is my ex-g/f son, the g/f and I split up a wail ago. I send the money to the grandmother and I know the lad benefits directly from the money I send, (I don’t feel the need to justify how) I get the odd letter from the lad, obviously instigated by Mum or grand mum, normally just a drawing of a pretty dodgy looking dog or cat! And a Tex thanking from his mum each time the money go’s in to their account, it’s not a lot, 3000 a month. Why do I do it? Because we met, our lives crossed, and I have the power to help. If I thought for one minute the money was going elsewhere I’d stop sending it in a hart beat. So! Let’s hear it, just how stupid I am.

[dmax]

same old mai pen rai laid back attitude

[Mossfinn]

same old mai pen rai laid back attitude

Did you intend the pun

[GuestHouse]

There's something wrong when people who choose to offer financial help to those less fortunate than themselves have to justify their actions.

Like it's not your money they are giving away.

How's it go, if you can't help, get out of the way!

Edited April 5, 2010 by GuestHouse

[cognos]

It's not just mothers in Thailand that don't teach their daughters about the facts of life.. it happens all over the world in varying degrees. As a guy, at age 10 or so my Dad said one day I should know about the facts of life. I let him off the hook by saying that I already knew ( like helll I did), so his talk consisted of one sentence.." it takes about 10 minutes".

perhaps in Thailand the MY BPEN RAI attitude prevails with regards to Ian's question too.. let and let live.. let nature take it's course.. its natural.. for better or worse..whatever will be will be.. the futures not ours to see.. Que sera sera

look, the Thai government doesn't exactly condemn large families..they do have a few condom advertisements on billboards, but those are to scare young people into using condoms to avoid AIDS

people all over the world are usually reactive as oppossed to procative, so why should this be any different?

in general..its all about dealing with the consequences later, whether you are talking about this issue or a million others..

signed: mom says.."oh, my daughter's pregnant, my bpen rai khaaaa, som naam naaaaa

[beerdog]

I think its because the older generation live in the past. This is still "Old Siam' where women NEVER have sex before they are married. That seems to be what the older generation believe. Thats why sex ed in schools is seriously lacking.

Or it could be That Thais just do things and face the consequences later?

i agree with the last sentence. Thais do things and face the consequences later. even on their salary, some Thais have low salary. They would go for drinking on the paid day for few days.

I also heard a girl got pregant at age 14. she also told her friends (where she used hang out) that she's pregant. after that she disappear 'till now..have never seen her any more..

[ilyelol]

most replies are bullshit.

It's very clear that there is a lot of publicity about condoms on TV during breaks from those retarded soap shows

Also on the road, lots of pannel with condoms.

Those who do not use them, are just trying to be cool, want to feel something(asians are smaller than us in general, meaning their condoms are looser, hence less feeling) or are just plain retarded.

The biggest reason is that in third world countries, people dont value their own lives, theyre not scared to die.. they think they'll be reborn with the same mind the next second.. thats why when you goto south africa, american.. whatever u will have kids doing crazy jumps off cliffs when in the west its only a minority who do that and are usualy trained well with protecting equipement at first.

Edited April 5, 2010 by ilyelol

[a2396]

Why are you mouthing of at Thai culture when you have the likes of the catholics that say no condoms while they protect there own that molest children?

The "Good Christians" who are preaching abstinence and no abortion are another "bird-brained" deluded group, who don't live in reality. The fact is that sex in an enjoyable act and people are going to do it, regardless of age restrictions and other various taboos.

[a2396]

most replies are bullshit.

It's very clear that there is a lot of publicity about condoms on TV during breaks from those retarded soap shows

Also on the road, lots of pannel with condoms.

Those who do not use them, are just trying to be cool, want to feel something(asians are smaller than us in general, meaning their condoms are looser, hence less feeling) or are just plain retarded.

The biggest reason is that in third world countries, people dont value their own lives, theyre not scared to die.. they think they'll be reborn with the same mind the next second.. thats why when you goto south africa, american.. whatever u will have kids doing crazy jumps off cliffs when in the west its only a minority who do that and are usualy trained well with protecting equipement at first.

Another "fact of life" to keep in mind is that sex with a condom is generally not as enjoyable as without. I think that has something to do with it as well. Methods of birth control are also not free in Thailand either, which they should be.

[edgarfriendly]

interesting point.

If they are into rape and sacrifice of children, i'd like to know WHY exactly?

its global, and they are covering it up...

what do they benefit from it? really?

ef

[PeaceBlondie]

Can we stick to the topic?

[Bagwan]

Q. What do you call good Cathioliocs who use the 'safe period?'

A. Parents.

It was made very clear to my daughter that if she became pregnant she would not receive any assistance from my wife or myself. We made the point that if she now considered herself adult enough to become a mother then what went with that was taking responsibility for her actions. That's what adults do. No more trips to the local palais de danse with her friends as she would be washing baby's nappies and doing the ironing, quite apart from we not baby sitting. She could look forward to waking up in the middle of the night to tend to the child's needs etc etc. We had our two children when quite young and had fulfilled all our responsibilities and obligations towards them; now it was our time to live it up a bit. My son was told that if he got a girl pregnant that he could expect to have an immediate change of address if he didn't act responsibly.

I don't know if we could have been as hard hearted as that really but the caution was certainly taken on board.

[IanForbes]

Another "fact of life" to keep in mind is that sex with a condom is generally not as enjoyable as without. I think that has something to do with it as well. Methods of birth control are also not free in Thailand either, which they should be.

That is not ENTIRELY true. A young man is a walking hormone. If anything he has too much feeling and It's all over in a matter of seconds. A condom actually lengthens the pleasure. The only problem is the little delay in putting one on. The first time for a girl is seldom very pleasureable, and unless the boy is knowledgeable the girl seldom gets any pleasure from the following attempts either.

Other than that I agree with you. There should be some frank instruction on love making and the practical use of condoms. I don't have a problem with young people having sex. They are going to do it regardless of what the parents say. But, at least the young women won't get pregnant before they are ready to raise children. Unfortunately, many poor Asian parents use their children as some sort of commodity to help them survive in their elder years. And, I'm not including the terrible practise of some parents selling their children into the Mafia run sexual slavery market.

I knew the facts of life as a teenager and made sure that I ALWAYS wore a condom. I still do unless I know for sure that the woman is taking other precautions. In any case I always make sure the woman gets her jollies first. If the lady ain't enjoying it then neither am I, and there are cheaper ways of getting pleasure.