Uk Visa For Thai Daughter Help

[Scoot74]

My wife has just got ILR, been resident in UK 2+ years.

We have a 1 year old baby daughter (born in UK).

My wife has a thai daughter living in Bangkok with her ex partner (Thai).

My wife looked after her daughter for first 3 years, split up with ex boyfriend and he & family looked after her since.

She is nearly 11 years old now.

My wifes daughter has been living with her ex boyfriends Aunty for the past 3 years (roughly the time my wife has spent in UK). Her ex boyfriend is no longer interested in looking after her and wants her to come to England.

What is the best way of getting her a UK visa if she has not been solely responsible for her daughter recently?

Taken from UK Border Agency Website

"A sponsoring parent (see SET7.2) must be able to show that he/she has been solely responsible for exercising parental care over the child for a substantial period."

"An application should normally be refused if the child has been in the care of the other parent's relatives and the other parent lives nearby and takes an active interest in the child's welfare."

[7by7]

From what you say, it appears that your wife has not been exercising any responsibility over her daughter for 8 years.

In which case, unless you can show the father's family are now unable to care for the child, there is no way your wife will get a visa for her daughter to live with her in the UK. That the father may now want the child to live in the UK is not a reason for ignoring the sole responsibility issue.

That's my opinion, but I'm not a professional; I'd like to see what ThaiVisaExpress has to say.

[sumrit]

I have to agree with 7by7 I'm afraid.

Being able to show that, even though she's living in the UK, your wife has continued to have sole responsibility over the day to day upbringing (both financially and decision making) of her daughter is a must.

From what you say your wife hasn't done this since her daughter was three years old. I think the only way your wife could bring her to the UK at the moment would be if there were no family left in Thailand able to look after her daughter.

[Scoot74]

I was afraid of these answers, she would have a better life growing up with her new sister and in the care of her mother in the UK.

I have to prove her father is not interested and her aunty cannot look after her anymore?

[Thongkorn]

If she is the sole member of her immediate family , I think she may get a Visa, On the grounds that she is her blood daughter, and the only living relative.

[ThaiVisaExpress]

Can she get the sole custody document ?

Can she demonstrate she has sole responsibility of the child ?

These are the two questions which need answering ?

If you require professional help feel free to contact me via my website.

[7by7]

she would have a better life growing up with her new sister and in the care of her mother in the UK.

You quoted in your OP from the Entry Clearance Guidance for child settlement, so are presumably familiar with it. However, may I remind you of SET7.9 What are 'Serious and compelling family or other reasons'?

.......not considered acceptable as a 'serious and compelling' reason under this provision:

that the UK offers a higher standard of living than in the child's own country

There may be more to this than you are telling us, but on the face of it your wife placed her daughter in the care of the child's father 8 years ago and now wants her back; this is not a 'serious and compelling family or other reason' I'm afraid.

For any application to stand any chance you need to satisfy the ECO on a number of points.

1) Is there an actual custody order; or was the arrangement informal? When your wife and the girl's father separated, did your wife agree to the father having custody of the child, and if so; why? If not, how did the child end up living with her father? What did your wife do to try and gain custody for herself?

2) What contact has your wife had with the child over the last 8 years? How often has she visited? How often has she phoned? What about birthdays etc.? Does you wife play an active role in decision making about the child, e.g. schooling, and has she done so throughout the seperation? Does she contribute financially toward her upkeep and, if yes, how long has she been doing so?

3) When the father decided he could no longer take care of the child, why did she go to live with her parental aunt and not her mother? What did your wife do at this time to try and have her daughter live with her? What has changed in the last three years which means the girl now has to live with her mother, after not doing so for most of her life?

I don't expect you to answer these questions here; but your wife does need to answer them when she submits any application for her daughter, and provide evidence to support her answers. This needs to be done in writing with the initial application, it is exceedingly unlikely that either your wife or the girl herself would be interviewed; most visa decisions are made on the paperwork alone.

One document your wife may find useful is a Kor Por 14, obtainable from the local ampur where her daughter lives. I know little of these documents myself, so I'll quote from Sumrit's excellent explanation here

The kor por 14 from the Amphur is not just a sole custody document it is a sworn statement made in front of a government official and can actually contain any facts you want it to. In practice it's usually a history of your child's life, who has custody, where, and with whom, they live now and have lived throughout their life, a history of their school life, and who is responsible for the day to day decisions on the child's upbringing, financial costs and decision making in the child's life.

So yes it does contain a statement on sole custody but must also contain confirmation on sole responsibility as well to satisfy the Thai passport office before they'll issue a passport for the child (assuming there's no court documents, such a divorce/custody papers, already in existence of course).

While a KP 14 may not be enough on it's own to prove sole responsibility the British Embassy recognize it as an official Thai document, similar to a sworn statement made in front of a solicitor or court official in the UK, and it's a good addition to the other evidence people can provide

Refusals of settlement applications do have a right of appeal, but I feel that were the application to be refused any appeal is likely to be equally unsuccessful.

[Scoot74]

Thanks 7by7

1. The agreement was informal. My wife agreed to the father having custody because his mum & dad could look after her daughter (my wifes mum & dad are seperated). My wife was working in Bangkok, so her daughter was sent to Suratthani so her ex boyfriends dad could look after her.

2. My wife had little contact with her daughter at first because his family would not allow her to talk to her mum. She started talking to her daughter about 3 years ago when she went to live with her ex boyfriends aunt in Bangkok (this is when his father died). My wife was not allowed to make any active decisions about schooling etc as she was not allowed to talk to her. My wife sends money when she can, only since she has had contact with her, but this is done via my wifes father i.e. she sends money to her dad every month, and he sends money to her aunts bank account.

3. My wife was not in contact with her daughter at the time she moved to live with her aunt.

To cut a long story short, his family has done there best for my wife not to have contact with her daughter. Only in the last 3 years since his dad has died and she has gone to live with her aunt she has been in contact (her aunt doesnt mind contact with her mother).

I hope I have done my best to explain the situation, I will look into Kor Por 14 (my wife also via Thai web sites). Its all a bit of a mess at the moment!

[sumrit]

I will look into Kor Por 14 (my wife also via Thai web sites). Its all a bit of a mess at the moment!

I can tell you a little more about getting a Kor Por 14.

It's a statement that your wife AND two witnesses make in person at the local Amphur.

The two witnesses should me prominent/respected members of the local community who have known both your wife and her daughter for all/most of the daughter's life and can give an accurate description of the history of her life.

It should include who has custody, where, and with whom she has lived throughout her life, what contact she has (had) with her parent(s), what (regular) contact there's been between parents and daughter when separated, who has made the 'day to day' decisions in her life, her school life, who has been responsible for the financial side of her upbringing, and basically anything else about the mother and daughters relationship that will give an insight into who has been responsible for the daughters upbringing/welfare.

A child doesn't have to be living with their parent(s), or even be in the same country, for the parent(s) to retain responsibility of them but if they are living apart the parent will have to provide documentary proof of that responsibility. A Kor Por 14 is just one of those documents that's available but can't be used on it's own. Other documents could include regular bank transfers to the 'carer', phone bills, voip records (skype, msn, etc) letters, birthday cards, school reports sent to the parent, letters from the school to the 'responsible' parent, and proof of regular visits to see her (photo's etc). I'm sure others will suggest lots of other forms of proof to these as well.

But from what you say I'm afraid I have to agree with 7by7 again. You seem to suggest that your wife has not been the 'responsible' parent for about eight years now and bringing her to the UK 'because she'd have a better life there' isn't an acceptable reason for the ECO to grant a visa. I feel you would have to show that that the existing family (and others, eg; father) member are no longer capable of looking after your wife's daughter to have any realistic chance of succeeding.

[7by7]

I'm sorry to say it, but each time you post the situation looks more hopeless.

Your wife handed over her daughter because your wife worked in Bangkok; but for the last three years the girl has been living in Bangkok with her aunt. Why couldn't she stay in Bangkok with her mother 8 years ago?

The girls paternal grand parents wouldn't allow contact; what efforts did your wife make to overcome this?

Having taken the girl away from her mother, and not allowed any contact from her mother, now that the mother lives in the UK why are the father and his family now keen for the mother to have custody of the girl?

Remember, you don't have to explain the situation to us; you have to satisfy the ECO! As far as I can see, the only way this is going to happen is if the girls father, aunt and paternal grand parents all become destitute, physically incapable of looking after a child or die!

However, I'm not a professional; maybe it's time you spoke to one. But read this before you do.

[tjthai]

Some on here may remember we had a 'similar' situation ourselves when we applied for Settlement Visas for my wife and step daughter last year. THANK YOU TO EVERYONE WHO REMEMBERS

My step daughter had not lived with my wife since she split with the father. To start with she lived with her father's grandparents and then went to boarding school in BKK. In February of last year she came to live with us permanently. We decided that we would come to live in the UK and discussed our situation with Ralph Davies at Davies Khan and he explained what we needed to prove and what documents we would need.

Firstly, as her ex-husband had custody my wife went to court to change the custody to her name. She then went to the Amphur to change the Kor Por 14 to her name also. Like your wife, my wife had been in constant contact with her daughter over the last 8 years (she had letters of communication and photos between them) but this had been in some secrecy.

When we first applied for the visa my wife passed but my stepdaughter did not - she was refused because we could not prove sole responsibility. Although in boarding school so day to day responsibility was with the school they argued that my stepdaughter's grandparents could look after her - even though we had letters stating that they were too old and had no income. We also had a letter from the father stating that he could not look after her, new family and low income, and indeed hadn't done so from the beginning.

When we got the refusal we talked to Ralph again and he advised us to send more letters from the people who had, at times, been responsible for my stepdaughter and more letters showing communication between my wife and my stepdaughter. We thought we had provided enough evidence to show that the responsibility had moved to my wife and that there was no one else that could look after her since finishing the boading school. Obviously the Embassy had another view on that and so we lodged our appeal last September and having met with our local MP in the UK and him badgering the Home Office 2 times we finally got it overturned just in time for Christmas. It was a great present and now we are all together here in Scotland.

All I can really say is that you need to think about the evidence you can provide that shows the Embassy that there has been contact and that your wife needs to look after her as no one else can. I agree with what 7by7 says and that it is going to be very hard. To be honest, I think we assumed too much with our evidence so should have really produced more at the beginning and perhaps we could have avoided the refusal.

I would recommend Ralph Davies as he helped us through the process and certainly I am sure he can best advise with your situation.

SCOOT74 I wish you all the best of luck but please feel free to PM me if you would like any further information on what we did or just want to chat.

TJTHAI