Thai Society Cannot Be Changed With Just Discourse

[Insight]

Something I notice hasn't been reported elsewhere. Drove to Bang Bua Tong last night about 11pm-ish. Passing through Northaburi we seen a large gathering of red shrits - perhaps about 50 odd pick-ups. It was on the main road, think it was outside the Thaicom building.

Not sure if this was part of a wider plan should the army go in to Ratchaprasong - start causing chaos on the outskirts of the city...

[jayboy]

Maybe comparing Thailand a fledgling democracy of 7 decades with the US or UK etc is a mistake. Apart form the differences in development and wealth all those places have had demcoracy a lot longer and it has not always been smooth. The US had a civil war and UK used troops to put down people for example.

In real terms how is Thailand doing as a 70 year old fledgling democracy? Assuming this passage is moved past with no more violence will that show more maturity? If there is more violence will that make Thailand any different from other countries democratic development in the past? Even with the best of wills Thailand is not going to become like any western democracy in ages even if it ever does.

We can though compare Thailand to two other fledgling democracies Japan and South Korea both of whom have been democratic for less time than Thailand but have made far greater progress.

The comparison is very relevant.Though corruption exists to a significant degree in both countries, both Japan and Korea made profound commitments to democracy curbing arrogant generals, feudal apologists and other parasites.

[ratcatcher]

the basic problem here is no one wil put there name on anything for no one knows what will take place if a new opposition comes into power.

Imagine what will take palce IF, ( god , i hope not) Thaksin comes back and what he will do to all those that had anything to do with his loss of power.

Does the phrase, " moved to inactive post" sound familiar

Here today,,,,,gone tomorrow

If Thaksin comes back, there will be heads rolling, lots of heads. Let´s hope he stay away.

If Thaksin returned, it is entirely possible that one of the rolling heads may be his own.

Outside of his Red Brigade, he's not too popular.

I believe a lot of people would rather he was not absorbing oxygen.

[boynamedsue]

I don't think you'll find a communist state where the people really benefited from it. They don't all get rich, more often they all get poor, except those with the best government connections. You won't find a single country using democracy, capitalism or anything else where everyone is well off. It is my opinion that every country relies on having large number of poor people to function. Think about it, poor people will collect trash and do all the McJobs no one else wants because they don't have other options.

poor people need to realize the rich are their friend!

imagine if rich stopped eating rice and switch to mashed potatoes

[jayboy]

the basic problem here is no one wil put there name on anything for no one knows what will take place if a new opposition comes into power.

Imagine what will take palce IF, ( god , i hope not) Thaksin comes back and what he will do to all those that had anything to do with his loss of power.

Does the phrase, " moved to inactive post" sound familiar

Here today,,,,,gone tomorrow

If Thaksin comes back, there will be heads rolling, lots of heads. Let´s hope he stay away.

If Thaksin returned, it is entirely possible that one of the rolling heads may be his own.

Outside of his Red Brigade, he's not too popular.

I believe a lot of people would rather he was not absorbing oxygen.

I hope he stays away too.However the reality is that he and his allies are popular enough to win any general election fairly conducted.That, notwithstanding your rather infantile red brigade rhetoric, is what this fuss is all about.Abhisit knows it.Anupong knows it.In fact most clued up people know it.

Edited April 24, 2010 by jayboy

[TAWP]

We have a mix here. The insurgents sponsored by the Red shirt leaders have access to heavy weaponry and money to carry out their deeds. Many of the normal thugs in the red camp, i.e. some of the protesters and not the majority, have their slingshots, bottle-rockets etc etc and use them. They might actually think they are carrying out the Good fight, and hence pay for it themselves...

[chadintheusa]

Something I notice hasn't been reported elsewhere. Drove to Bang Bua Tong last night about 11pm-ish. Passing through Northaburi we seen a large gathering of red shrits - perhaps about 50 odd pick-ups. It was on the main road, think it was outside the Thaicom building.

Not sure if this was part of a wider plan should the army go in to Ratchaprasong - start causing chaos on the outskirts of the city...

Ever since PTV went off the air the Reds have maintained a protest site at the Thaicom building in Nonthaburi on Rattanathibet Road, even though that is not where the satellite uplink is controlled from, that office is in Pathum Thani. The crowd comes and goes, but there are always some Reds hanging out there. It is across from Nonthaburi city hall, which they threatened to occupy when they were fighting for their TV station.

Edited April 24, 2010 by chadintheusa

[brahmburgers]

I simply do not understand why the government, the reds, the yellows etc do not simply consult Thai Visa as most of the members seem to have an answer to the current and past problems of Thailand. Simple solution?

Simple enough, put it to a vote, if the ayes have it, then ten months later the nayes will copy the strategies of the ayes, and the nayes will have it the subsequent time. Then the nayes will get cocky and the ayes will come back, but the undecideds will show up from nowhere and plunge the whole thing in to chaos again.

Or, how about this; all those on Thai visa who ingest neither alcohol, nicotine or caffeine make the call. Then surely the Thai people will abide by that decision, as we non-drug users will have sufficient clarity of mind to steer the country to greener pastures. However there's a possibility the MSG users of Thailand (which are all Thai folks) won't agree, and we're back to square one - namely fortified stockade with angry people shouting back and forth, with a few police and triple-deep parked cars between.

... with lots of rocks, bottles and a few RP grenades thrown in for good measure.

[Pakboong]

Thais are not brought up to engage in civil society, for the good reason that there is no civil society to engage in. There are no institutions that people actually believe in, except The One we don't talk about; the police, the army, the courts, the bureaucracy are all feudal institutions with their long-held customs of paying tribute and allegiance, and maintaining face at all costs.

Everybody in The System has so many hooks in their back, such a tangled web of alliances and allegiances, that they are paralysed from taking action. If you are not in The System, you simply don't count. Truly, The System is a fraud.

This is a battle between two elites who belong to that system; all the Red Shirt leaders are ex-parliamentarians and this is their fight, to try and get back the privileges they once enjoyed under Thaksin. It is emphatically not a people's revolution -- they are cannon fodder.

If you could insert "Chinese" in your last paragraph between the words two and elites, we would be in 100% agreement.

[midas]

Thais are not brought up to engage in civil society, for the good reason that there is no civil society to engage in. There are no institutions that people actually believe in, except The One we don't talk about; the police, the army, the courts, the bureaucracy are all feudal institutions with their long-held customs of paying tribute and allegiance, and maintaining face at all costs.

Everybody in The System has so many hooks in their back, such a tangled web of alliances and allegiances, that they are paralysed from taking action. If you are not in The System, you simply don't count. Truly, The System is a fraud.

This is a battle between two elites who belong to that system; all the Red Shirt leaders are ex-parliamentarians and this is their fight, to try and get back the privileges they once enjoyed under Thaksin. It is emphatically not a people's revolution -- they are cannon fodder.

If you could insert "Chinese" in your last paragraph between the words two and elites, we would be in 100% agreement.

There is one other institution towards which even the The One we don't talk about shows a degree of deference

- the Buddhist Monks. yes i know most people will say they are not meant to get involved in politics but this situation

surely goes well beyond that ?

I am sure there are more than a few wise old Monks out there who could counsel all the parties even in the interests of

one of their main beliefs being not to kill. Thais need to try everything ?

[Pakboong]

Thais are not brought up to engage in civil society, for the good reason that there is no civil society to engage in. There are no institutions that people actually believe in, except The One we don't talk about; the police, the army, the courts, the bureaucracy are all feudal institutions with their long-held customs of paying tribute and allegiance, and maintaining face at all costs.

Everybody in The System has so many hooks in their back, such a tangled web of alliances and allegiances, that they are paralysed from taking action. If you are not in The System, you simply don't count. Truly, The System is a fraud.

This is a battle between two elites who belong to that system; all the Red Shirt leaders are ex-parliamentarians and this is their fight, to try and get back the privileges they once enjoyed under Thaksin. It is emphatically not a people's revolution -- they are cannon fodder.

If you could insert "Chinese" in your last paragraph between the words two and elites, we would be in 100% agreement.

There is one other institution towards which even the The One we don't talk about shows a degree of deference

- the Buddhist Monks. yes i know most people will say they are not meant to get involved in politics but this situation

surely goes well beyond that ?

I am sure there are more than a few wise old Monks out there who could counsel all the parties even in the interests of

one of their main beliefs being not to kill. Thais need to try everything ?

There were a few in Viet Nam who got seriously involved.

[erobando]

This situation is tricky and more similar to rival football ultras than policy battles.

The problem with Thai politics is that it's all about people and not about policy.

Extremes in all sides lie/distort the truth and then their followers get riled up.

There definitely are ways to lessen gaps between the rich and poor, or at least give poorer people opportunities.

Western European Social Democracies do it, the US instituted similar programs in the 1930's and then the 1960's.

I'm not sure that Thailand has the capability or willingness to do it.

Unlike the West (or the mentioned Japan or S Korea), Thailand is still a developing country. And at all levels of government (from local on up), politics are seen as a way to make money.

Thailand could achieve some wealth distribution through social programs and could help pay for by increasing taxes on the upper middle and upper classes; none of the parties involved are advocating this and I doubt it happens soon.

A true grass roots People's Movement would need to incorporate rural people from all regions of Thailand, including the south.

It doesn't and from the outside the Red Shirt agenda seems to primarily be pro-Thaksin and not pro-X policy. Hold an election and the same regions will vote for the same people again and again... North and Northeast will primarily vote PPP (or whatever future incarnation might exist), Bangkok and the South will primarily vote Democratic (or whatever party emerges if they are dissolved), Suphanburi will vote for the most current incarnation of Barnharn's party, etc.

[whiterussian]

"Society cannot be changed with just discourse"

Edited April 24, 2010 by whiterussian

[Publicus]

Maybe comparing Thailand a fledgling democracy of 7 decades with the US or UK etc is a mistake. Apart form the differences in development and wealth all those places have had demcoracy a lot longer and it has not always been smooth. The US had a civil war and UK used troops to put down people for example.

In real terms how is Thailand doing as a 70 year old fledgling democracy? Assuming this passage is moved past with no more violence will that show more maturity? If there is more violence will that make Thailand any different from other countries democratic development in the past? Even with the best of wills Thailand is not going to become like any western democracy in ages even if it ever does.

We can though compare Thailand to two other fledgling democracies Japan and South Korea both of whom have been democratic for less time than Thailand but have made far greater progress.

The comparison is very relevant.Though corruption exists to a significant degree in both countries, both Japan and Korea made profound commitments to democracy curbing arrogant generals, feudal apologists and other parasites.

Taiwan as well belongs to this grouping. Each has had a long standing alliance with and mentoring by the United States, two are republics and the other has an emperor who signs the documents the elected to parliament PM tells him to sign. Each has challenges but justice is generally perceived among their populations, civilian authority over the military is well established, they're rich countries, corruption is on a continuing downward trajectory; they value and utilize technology and have strong R&D budgets etc etc. As with Mexico and so many other countries, maybe Thailand can begin to move in these directions sometime during the 22nd century.

Edited April 24, 2010 by Publicus

[chadintheusa]

This situation is tricky and more similar to rival football ultras than policy battles.

The problem with Thai politics is that it's all about people and not about policy.

Extremes in all sides lie/distort the truth and then their followers get riled up.

There definitely are ways to lessen gaps between the rich and poor, or at least give poorer people opportunities.

Western European Social Democracies do it, the US instituted similar programs in the 1930's and then the 1960's.

I'm not sure that Thailand has the capability or willingness to do it.

Unlike the West (or the mentioned Japan or S Korea), Thailand is still a developing country. And at all levels of government (from local on up), politics are seen as a way to make money.

Thailand could achieve some wealth distribution through social programs and could help pay for by increasing taxes on the upper middle and upper classes; none of the parties involved are advocating this and I doubt it happens soon.

A true grass roots People's Movement would need to incorporate rural people from all regions of Thailand, including the south.

It doesn't and from the outside the Red Shirt agenda seems to primarily be pro-Thaksin and not pro-X policy. Hold an election and the same regions will vote for the same people again and again... North and Northeast will primarily vote PPP (or whatever future incarnation might exist), Bangkok and the South will primarily vote Democratic (or whatever party emerges if they are dissolved), Suphanburi will vote for the most current incarnation of Barnharn's party, etc.

They don't need to increase taxes, they just need to collect it better. Do you have any idea the lengths Thais go to in order to avoid paying their taxes? It's a whole industry of its own. Some will even get elected PM and change the laws in order to skip out on the tax man.

[danc]

maybe Thailand can begin to move in these directions sometime during the 22nd century.

I think most things we see in Battlestar Galatica will be humdrum everyday normal before Thailand moves in that direction!

Edited April 24, 2010 by danc

[chadintheusa]

maybe Thailand can begin to move in these directions sometime during the 22nd century.

I think most things we see in Battlestar Galatica will be humdrum everyday normal before Thailand moves in that direction!

Thailand is presently in the 26th century, they have their own calendar.

[danc]

maybe Thailand can begin to move in these directions sometime during the 22nd century.

I think most things we see in Battlestar Galatica will be humdrum everyday normal before Thailand moves in that direction!

Thailand is presently in the 26th century, they have their own calendar.

Thanks for that - keeps us all up to speed though it does perhaps spoil publicus' intentional use of exaggeration as a linguistic tool for conveying a valid point and my own tacit agreement with said point through a use of a patently incredible metaphor!

Have a pleasant evening!

Edited April 24, 2010 by danc

[RandyWhite]

And the writer is hiding in anonymity. Hasn't even got the courage to add his or her name as the writer of this diatribe.

Unless Andre2000 is your brother, I'd say you shot yourself in the foot there, sport.

As for me, I'm living on the edge already, so it would be pretty silly to give the 'enemy' any free kicks.

I haven't survived here for 20 years speaking the truth to power by using my balls for brains.

[eggomaniac]

Returning the country to political normalcy....he or she said... <deleted>

It would have SO informative if the writer had pointed out WHAT point in Thailand's history this, so called, "political normalcy" existed! During which constitution or military coup was this? Only one 'elected' Prime Minister, in 80 years, lasted a full term and he is criminal on the run.

[Was it the KPI who offered to be the caretaker government? That would REALLY make it a joke.]

The Joseph Solution would mollify all sides*, and I mean ALL sides, putting reds and yellows working together, pulling the same direction.

Correct placing of stones, instead of improper throwing of rocks is what is required.

*[communists and the politically corrupt would not like it, as well as the Southern separatists who are wringing their hands in glee at Thailand tearing itself apart.]

[eggomaniac]

I don't think you'll find a communist state where the people really benefited from it. They don't all get rich, more often they all get poor, except those with the best government connections. You won't find a single country using democracy, capitalism or anything else where everyone is well off. It is my opinion that every country relies on having large number of poor people to function. Think about it, poor people will collect trash and do all the McJobs no one else wants because they don't have other options.

poor people need to realize the rich are their friend!

imagine if rich stopped eating rice and switch to mashed potatoes

mods please Delete before Sondhi reads. He is already on record that the next times things are not going his way he will get all his rich yellows to withdraw all their money and destroy Thailand's economy.

NOW you give him this new ammunition.. for IQ's under 100 <<< the preceding was meant to facetiously humoress

[seri thai]

The core of the whole problem: the RICH red leaders are protestingst against the wealth gap, but they haven't offered any solutions.

How will an election solve the problem if the reds don't have any idea how to fix it.

Thaksin and his puppet parties were in power for over 6 years and came up with no LONG TERM solutions to fix the problems of the poor. All they offered were short term vote grabbers, further debt for the poor, and unfunded health policies.

I believe their stated protest is centred around perceived political double standards for different sectors of society and interference in the democratic process.

Love them or loathe them I find this hard to dispute. Apart from the 2006 coup, the democrats indulgence of PAD in the airport occupation and siege of government house were protests against a popularly elected (and of course-corrupt) government.

The essence of the current campaign has been to mimic the strategy of the previous group.

..and I say this as someone more inclined toward the democrat (also corrupt) party than Peaua Thai!

IMO anyone who comes up with the "uneducate"/bribes/wealth envy and bloody-peasants-should-all-be-flogged" argument is just a lazy Nation reader.

FYI All political parties are "puppet "parties in Thailand. That's the patronage system. n.b. If there is a change in government just watch TheManFromBuriRam et al take his Lego set and go with it.

Still as long as the beer prices aren't affected eh?

[nickupton]

"Flinstone technology"

"Wilma, get Bam-bam over here with the M79 grenade launcher, Barney doesn't agree with me".

[nickupton]

I believe their stated protest is centred around perceived political double standards for different sectors of society and interference in the democratic process.

I'm ready to protest against that.

"Thaksin tid kook!"

[Gerryasia]

The core of the whole problem: the RICH red leaders are protestingst against the wealth gap, but they haven't offered any solutions.

How will an election solve the problem if the reds don't have any idea how to fix it.

Thaksin and his puppet parties were in power for over 6 years and came up with no LONG TERM solutions to fix the problems of the poor. All they offered were short term vote grabbers, further debt for the poor, and unfunded health policies.

I'm not at all convinced the red leaders care about the wealth gap because it doesn't personally affect them. I'm sure the rank and file reds care about the wealth gap because it directly affects a lot of them personally.

If the red leaders did care about it, then as you say they would have offered solutions. I believe they just used the wealth gap as part of their justification for protesting. But the fact that when it came down to it, their ONLY demand is for the government to resign, then it shows that they only care about power and don't really care about the wealth gap at all.

Please, Please, Please....show me WHERE on this planet that the "wealth gap" does not exist?

My mind and heart are open.

If they really did care about the wealth gap, then they would welcome ANY measures that seek to improve it. But let's face it, the LAST thing that Thaksin and the red leaders would want is for the current government to start implementing policies that favor the poor, because that would undermine EVERYTHING they are claiming the current government stands for.

[ianf]

The core of the whole problem: the RICH red leaders are protestingst against the wealth gap, but they haven't offered any solutions.

How will an election solve the problem if the reds don't have any idea how to fix it.

Thaksin and his puppet parties were in power for over 6 years and came up with no LONG TERM solutions to fix the problems of the poor. All they offered were short term vote grabbers, further debt for the poor, and unfunded health policies.

I believe their stated protest is centred around perceived political double standards for different sectors of society and interference in the democratic process.

Love them or loathe them I find this hard to dispute. Apart from the 2006 coup, the democrats indulgence of PAD in the airport occupation and siege of government house were protests against a popularly elected (and of course-corrupt) government.

The essence of the current campaign has been to mimic the strategy of the previous group.

..and I say this as someone more inclined toward the democrat (also corrupt) party than Peaua Thai!

IMO anyone who comes up with the "uneducate"/bribes/wealth envy and bloody-peasants-should-all-be-flogged" argument is just a lazy Nation reader.

FYI All political parties are "puppet "parties in Thailand. That's the patronage system. n.b. If there is a change in government just watch TheManFromBuriRam et al take his Lego set and go with it.

Still as long as the beer prices aren't affected eh?

Just to simplify things here, I thought the protests were about Thaksin's revenge. Or am I missing something?

[animatic]

The core of the whole problem: the RICH red leaders are protestingst against the wealth gap, but they haven't offered any solutions.

How will an election solve the problem if the reds don't have any idea how to fix it.

Thaksin and his puppet parties were in power for over 6 years and came up with no LONG TERM solutions to fix the problems of the poor. All they offered were short term vote grabbers, further debt for the poor, and unfunded health policies.

I believe their stated protest is centred around perceived political double standards for different sectors of society and interference in the democratic process.

Love them or loathe them I find this hard to dispute. Apart from the 2006 coup, the democrats indulgence of PAD in the airport occupation and siege of government house were protests against a popularly elected (and of course-corrupt) government.

The essence of the current campaign has been to mimic the strategy of the previous group.

..and I say this as someone more inclined toward the democrat (also corrupt) party than Peaua Thai!

IMO anyone who comes up with the "uneducate"/bribes/wealth envy and bloody-peasants-should-all-be-flogged" argument is just a lazy Nation reader.

FYI All political parties are "puppet "parties in Thailand. That's the patronage system. n.b. If there is a change in government just watch TheManFromBuriRam et al take his Lego set and go with it.

Still as long as the beer prices aren't affected eh?

Just to simplify things here, I thought the protests were about Thaksin's revenge. Or am I missing something?

He's borrowed and created a lot of side issues to graft larger quantities of BODIES on to his

goal oriented work team. He couldn't get enough sheer faces in a crowd if it were JUST about him,

and not have the COSTS balloon too much.

And then there has been a intensive effort to Re-Brand the Reds to be other than the Thaksin vehicle it is.

Edited April 25, 2010 by animatic

[yoshiwara]

The core of the whole problem: the RICH red leaders are protestingst against the wealth gap, but they haven't offered any solutions.

How will an election solve the problem if the reds don't have any idea how to fix it.

Thaksin and his puppet parties were in power for over 6 years and came up with no LONG TERM solutions to fix the problems of the poor. All they offered were short term vote grabbers, further debt for the poor, and unfunded health policies.

I believe their stated protest is centred around perceived political double standards for different sectors of society and interference in the democratic process.

Love them or loathe them I find this hard to dispute. Apart from the 2006 coup, the democrats indulgence of PAD in the airport occupation and siege of government house were protests against a popularly elected (and of course-corrupt) government.

The essence of the current campaign has been to mimic the strategy of the previous group.

..and I say this as someone more inclined toward the democrat (also corrupt) party than Peaua Thai!

IMO anyone who comes up with the "uneducate"/bribes/wealth envy and bloody-peasants-should-all-be-flogged" argument is just a lazy Nation reader.

FYI All political parties are "puppet "parties in Thailand. That's the patronage system. n.b. If there is a change in government just watch TheManFromBuriRam et al take his Lego set and go with it.

Still as long as the beer prices aren't affected eh?

...and now we have the red cheerleader coyly trying to sell himself as an inclined Democrat supporter.

Does Thaksin pay extra for initiative?

[Publicus]

maybe Thailand can begin to move in these directions sometime during the 22nd century.

I think most things we see in Battlestar Galatica will be humdrum everyday normal before Thailand moves in that direction!

Thailand is presently in the 26th century, they have their own calendar.

Advise me if I might be misinterpreting, but I infer you mean this particular self destructive eccentricity is at the core of the problem and redardation of the country. (Eccentricity not necessarily being self destructive everywhere, always.)

Edited April 25, 2010 by Publicus

[RickBradford]

To have a functioning one-person one-vote democracy, you have to have three things in place (probably more, but without these 3 you can't even start)

1. The ability to hold free, fair and transparent elections.

2. The confidence that the losing side will respect the result and not try to overturn the result.

3. The confidence that the winning side will treat everyone fairly, including those people who make up the political opposition.

You could probably add:

4. A voting public sufficiently well-informed to be able to make its own voting decisions, rather than being instructed how to vote.

I'm not sure Thailand's there yet.

The continual chaos in the Philippines is a good example of what happens when democracy is foisted on a people who aren't ready for it. It's just warlordism with ballot boxes.