Three More Dead In Fresh Bangkok Violence

[whybother]

Thailand needs help with this crisis as soon as possible. The help needs to be in the form of a neutral mediator or consultant to help develop a true "roadmap toward solving the problem".

The government already offered a generous and sincere solution and it was at first accepted, but then all kinds of other silly demands were demanded. The redshirts have made their own bed. It is too bad.

Agreed. But now that this has happened and the situation dramatically worsened through the incompetence and stubbornness of some red leaders: Now what?

"Shoot them all" seems to be the current answer. Not sure that it's the best one, seeing that everyone still has to live with each other in the country after this is over.

Do you think the government should just submit to their demands because of "the incompetence and stubbornness of some red leaders"?

[whybother]

I agree with you, but I'm afraid that the protesters blew their chance and have lost all credibility. They only want more peace talks now that they are getting creamed.

If they want peace, shouldn't all the frontline protesters be falling back, instead of attacking the army?

[Scott]

Some inflammatory posts have been removed and those with very large fonts. Please post carefully.

With regard to what the PM has said, I am sure there are official translations to which we can refer. Off the cuff translations which are likely to contain disinformation will be deleted.

Your cooperation in careful posting is necessary during these trying times.

[phupaman]

Hi all/

I think the Red leaders have to go the same way as Sai Daeng, Start with Jatoporn and it will be over very soon.

phupaman.

[MaxLee]

Road, map, Road map, Road map... If you're gonna mention this word ever again, I'm gonna kick your a$$e$

Forget, that you have ever heard that word...

... now you can all witness what this so called road map introduction has done to Bangkok....

... can you see that??? HUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There WON'T be a next time

[whybother]

Road, map, Road map, Road map... If you're gonna mention this word ever again, I'm gonna kick your a$$e$

Forget, that you have ever heard that word...

... now you can all witness what this so called road map introduction has done to Bangkok....

... can you see that??? HUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There WON'T be a next time

The introduction of IT didn't cause this.

The rejection of IT caused this.

[BKjohn]

The red supporters here are complaining over every red that gets killed or wounded ....

Hey, there is a very simple solution, the leaders declare an end to the illegal mob and give themselves up to the authorities - the "poor and ever so innocent farmers" go home - end of shooting - end of killing - and there may be a chance that Thailand's economy will not be totally screwed and recover in a year or two - it is really very easy but obviously not happening since the leaders are working for Thaksin and will be screwed if they give up. Their only way out is to succeed in overthrowing the current government.

Their calls for further negotiations are nothing but an attempt at PR to show their "willingness" to negotiate. If the government would fall for this, the same unreasonable demands would come up again and we would be back at square one but with the reds having had time to re-group .....

An ultimatum should be issued, giving everybody 4 hours to get out through a checkpoint and after this the army should crack down with full force to put an end to this sad affair.

Edited May 16, 2010 by BKjohn

[richieudon]

They been offered Reelections but is like a big kindergarten it must be now.

I know at least 6 people who been there for more than a week and none of them really support them they just gone there for the money.

We all losing lots of money because of this, here in BKK.

Make a demonstration once in a while to make a point but act like grownups not like Kids, this don't help anybody at the moment.

I'm not red and not yellow I just think that is the wrong way to go. That is my opinion take care

Rick

I agree. It's the "face" factor. I think IMHO that "face" is equivalent to school playground antics.

[TAWP]

From FB, a resident expat posted:

"The government must quickly suppress them even if it means

deaths. War is no war without deaths," she said, adding that red shirts

are "vulgar, uneducated and barbaric".

All the problems stemmed from one man - ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra, she concluded.

and: "this women is a noodle stall holder inside the red camp.."

Wow, now that is really a reliable source.

Please keep us updated, you are the man of FACTS!

It wasn't posted as news, more a musing. But I trust him more than you and many others.

[TAWP]

From FB, a resident expat posted:

"The government must quickly suppress them even if it means

deaths. War is no war without deaths," she said, adding that red shirts

are "vulgar, uneducated and barbaric".

All the problems stemmed from one man - ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra, she concluded.

and: "this women is a noodle stall holder inside the red camp.."

Wow, now that is really a reliable source.

Please keep us updated, you are the man of FACTS!

Why is she working in a noodle stall if her English is fluent!!

Uh, what? It was a translated conversation.

Edited May 16, 2010 by TAWP

[jdinasia]

Thailand needs help with this crisis as soon as possible. The help needs to be in the form of a neutral mediator or consultant to help develop a true "roadmap toward solving the problem".

The government already offered a generous and sincere solution and it was at first accepted, but then all kinds of other silly demands were demanded. The redshirts have made their own bed. It is too bad.

Agreed. But now that this has happened and the situation dramatically worsened through the incompetence and stubbornness of some red leaders: Now what?

"Shoot them all" seems to be the current answer. Not sure that it's the best one, seeing that everyone still has to live with each other in the country after this is over.

OK ... UG and Winnie are starting to scare me! Pod people?

politics ... and quite often on other things)

"Shoot them all is NOT the answer"

I submit to you that what is happening now MIGHT be decently considered.

Lock the reds in, not so tight that people wanting out can't leave (unless they are shot by their own). Not so tight that water can't get in (raining now).

Then wait for the militant ones to come to the edge to fight. Keep the pressure on but only as containment. The women kids and grannies stay safe in the center. Then wait for more militants to come to the edge to fight. Take out the violent ones and continue doing so.

"Stop shooting, retreat and we can then negotiate," Natthawut said. Asked by a journalist why he was not ordering the red shirts to stop attacking first, he angrily retorted: "The killers must stop. You cannot possibly expect those being hunted to stop killing. It's as if the red shirts have been abandoned alone in the world."

Natthawut --- when asked why he was not ordering the reds to stopp attacking first ............

(We almost never agree on

[gregb]

Thailand needs help with this crisis as soon as possible. The help needs to be in the form of a neutral mediator or consultant to help develop a true "roadmap toward solving the problem".

The government already offered a generous and sincere solution and it was at first accepted, but then all kinds of other silly demands were demanded. The redshirts have made their own bed. It is too bad.

Agreed. But now that this has happened and the situation dramatically worsened through the incompetence and stubbornness of some red leaders: Now what?

"Shoot them all" seems to be the current answer. Not sure that it's the best one, seeing that everyone still has to live with each other in the country after this is over.

Well, technically you only have to live together with the ones you don't shoot and kill, but your point is taken.

Some people are saying the demand the UN come in and investigate the actions of the government is because they don't trust the CIS to do it unbiased. I would agree a lack of trust on both sides is a big part of the problem. I suggest this idea of an impartial, independent investigator is not unreasonable, but only if the reds abandon their siege of the city center and go home. After all, the newest bogus claim of why they were staying is that they only want justice for April 10. Clearly, allowing UN investigators access to that data would satisfy that concern, so there would be no reason to stay on.

There are likely 2 problems with this. First, the government I'm sure doesn't want their decisions carefully scrutinized. While I believe they almost certainly acted within the confines of the law, nobody wants to be put on trial even if they are innocent. So they would likely hesitate, but in the end if they can't defend or are unwilling to accept the consequence of their decisions they shouldn't have made them.

The second problem is that the violent red leaders don't give a whiff about justice or the innocent people that were killed. So calling their bluff would not lead anywhere other than an even more absurd, extreme demand which would blow the whole deal just like they blew the roadmap. So why even bother someone like the UN with this? It will just make Thais look even more foolish.

So for now, the only practical solution is to remove all the violent red leaders by any means at your disposal. If they'd simply stop hiding among the women and children they'd make the government's job much easier and save countless lives.

I have little respect for terrorists in general, but terrorists who hid among human shields and hostages are the lowest bunch of cretins there are. Is it really so difficult to understand the "shoot them all" mentality? They haven't really left many choices.

[caznshane]

are we to presume that these individuals were just shot by the authorities for being in the wrong place at the wrong time?

So here's the crazy idea! A large group of farang teachers, etc carrying white flags, signs in Thai and English calling for talks instead of violence "Jaw, jaw,jaw not war, war, war" and a buddha image high above them walk into the middle of the area between the troops and the protesters and sit down in the road between them. Sign up below! Imagine

[citizen33]

It is not difficult to predict that members of the forum will differ in their views of the relevance of “international standards” and whether they have been breached by the Thai authorities. However, there is little doubt that this will be the benchmark that many international observers will use to assess the legitimacy of what has happened.

http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/i1ccleo.htm

http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/i2bpuff.htm

What a load of rubbish!

.... according to "international standards". What do you suppose that means?

Certainly not something produced by a hack organization on a US-subsidized vacation in Havana. Standards for codes of conduct created in Cuba? Now that's an oxymoron if there ever was one.

I see that the Nation is reporting that Human Rights Watch in New York has indeed made a statement expressing concern and citing the UN guidelines mentioned above (post 327 Foreign residents (...) thread). My earlier post only stated the obvious - that these are the rules that observers will apply in relation to international standards on the use of lethal force.

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2010/05/15/thai...e-zones-bangkok

Edited May 16, 2010 by citizen33

[rossigee]

Most foreigners either support or understand the need of ANY government to attempt to restore basic civil order against a violent, insurgent force. In Thailand's case, that force is the reds. Nobody wants to see people killed excepting very sick people. If the reds surrender and drop their weapons, nobody gets hurt, get it?

Having read many of you inane posts proclaiming how you understand what is going on and anyone who disagrees with you is ill-informed I suspect that most people will recognize your self engrandizement for what it is. Your attempt to pump up your ego. Thailand would be far better off if you were to pack your bags and go try to insert your ego in someone else's internal problems.

OK, can anyone tell me how I can filter out posts from particular idiots on this forum? I'm all ears to hearing the points of view of the red farangs here, and understand the historical class and political divide in the country that has led to there being two violently conflicting points of view on whether the government is 'legitimate' or not, but Thailand needs to look forward and work together peacefully to restore normality and prosperity. This guy is simply trolling and/or insulting anyone who makes a pro-government post. He doesn't seem to have anything even remotely insightful to add to the debate. Please either ban him, or tell me how I can ignore him.

Thanks.

[rossigee]

Amen to that.

Students from Thailand, Indonesia et al, cannot believe that they can ask questions of their teachers at Aus Universities.

Unheard of in Thailand.

This is bull. Good education is NOT the key out of poverty... esp. if someone rich can put their sons and daughters in "good schools" by pulling some levers or showing some $$$$. Heck how is a good eduction key to anything if you can just barely afford to pay for food?

Duh! Education means you are capable of filling jobs of a higher salary, capable of bringing in a higher income, capable of being able to afford food. Collectively, good education leads to better teamwork and communication, more business, economical and political problems resolved, and ultimately an increased quality of life for all the stakeholders.

Food certainly isn't the issue here anyway, as most of NE Thailand are self-sufficient within their communities. My family come from there, bang on the Laos border, are poor, but eat well at very little expense. The issues that really concern them the most are a group of local yaba addicts, who appear to have contributed to a sharp increase in house burglaries in the area, of which they lost a few thousand baht's worth of gold one night. What's in the red leaders manifesto on dealing with that?

The people in Isaan aren't stupid. I have distant relatives who live there. What there needs to be is more equality.. more opportunities. Calling these people "simple minded" is no longer "good enough"... whatever... the genie is out of the bottle. Try wearing a yellow shirt in these rural areas next year... try wearing this yellow shirt in certain parts of Bangkok next year... Think that you are smarter than every "back woods" thai issan... not a good idea... and these pictures will only fuel their hatred.

There's no hatred between Thais, except where it's been stirred up by those with alterior motives. Try heading up there yourself some time and seeing how badly your distant relatives have really got it.

[Spee]

that these are the rules that observers will apply in relation to international standards on the use of lethal force.

That whole article is a one-sided joke. It is little more than a cheap shot at the government forces, no call for consequences or cease and desist from the other side. The live fire zones were established to protect people not in the fray, and to specifically identify and disperse the violent ones who are.

I do feel bad for the true victims in all of this, those who live, work and own businesses inside the live fire zone, and want nothing more than for all of this to end. But of course this silly article pays no mind to them either.

Hack editorializing by a hack organization. As the Asia director, I would expect that guy Adams would have a full time job focusing on massive abuses inside communist China, North Korea and Myanmar, rather then taking cheap shots at the Thai government and soldiers who have clearly made every effort to resolve this dispute only to be rebuffed at every juncture.

Edited May 16, 2010 by Spee

[brianbiegler]

Most foreigners either support or understand the need of ANY government to attempt to restore basic civil order against a violent, insurgent force. In Thailand's case, that force is the reds. Nobody wants to see people killed excepting very sick people. If the reds surrender and drop their weapons, nobody gets hurt, get it?

Having read many of you inane posts proclaiming how you understand what is going on and anyone who disagrees with you is ill-informed I suspect that most people will recognize your self engrandizement for what it is. Your attempt to pump up your ego. Thailand would be far better off if you were to pack your bags and go try to insert your ego in someone else's internal problems.

OK, can anyone tell me how I can filter out posts from particular idiots on this forum? I'm all ears to hearing the points of view of the red farangs here, and understand the historical class and political divide in the country that has led to there being two violently conflicting points of view on whether the government is 'legitimate' or not, but Thailand needs to look forward and work together peacefully to restore normality and prosperity. This guy is simply trolling and/or insulting anyone who makes a pro-government post. He doesn't seem to have anything even remotely insightful to add to the debate. Please either ban him, or tell me how I can ignore him.

Thanks.

Ross, click on that users name over there on the left.. this will take you to their profile page...on their page there is a drop down menu called 'options'.. also on the left... in that drop down menu select 'ignore user'

[BNZ]

are we to presume that these individuals were just shot by the authorities for being in the wrong place at the wrong time?

So here's the crazy idea! A large group of farang teachers, etc carrying white flags, signs in Thai and English calling for talks instead of violence "Jaw, jaw,jaw not war, war, war" and a buddha image high above them walk into the middle of the area between the troops and the protesters and sit down in the road between them. Sign up below! Imagine

..and the Red Shirts toss a grenade at them and then a Molotov cocktail for good measure for being so naive to think that "They could make a difference" whilst adding to the body count that the Red Shirts will try to blame on the Government

Yeah good idea ..go ahead ajarn.

Please take 'A large group' and don't forget to hold hands and sing Kumbaya

It's a killing ground !

[viking75]

Most foreigners either support or understand the need of ANY government to attempt to restore basic civil order against a violent, insurgent force. In Thailand's case, that force is the reds. Nobody wants to see people killed excepting very sick people. If the reds surrender and drop their weapons, nobody gets hurt, get it?

Having read many of you inane posts proclaiming how you understand what is going on and anyone who disagrees with you is ill-informed I suspect that most people will recognize your self engrandizement for what it is. Your attempt to pump up your ego. Thailand would be far better off if you were to pack your bags and go try to insert your ego in someone else's internal problems.

OK, can anyone tell me how I can filter out posts from particular idiots on this forum? I'm all ears to hearing the points of view of the red farangs here, and understand the historical class and political divide in the country that has led to there being two violently conflicting points of view on whether the government is 'legitimate' or not, but Thailand needs to look forward and work together peacefully to restore normality and prosperity. This guy is simply trolling and/or insulting anyone who makes a pro-government post. He doesn't seem to have anything even remotely insightful to add to the debate. Please either ban him, or tell me how I can ignore him.

Thanks.

Upholding free speach is difficult sometime but be positive.

when people post like that, they ignorant and have big ego. most know he is harmless nut and just read and smile. don't answer to him or any like it.

[chowder]

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva need to finish this fast or else the tide will turn, the faster the better dragging time will not help his government.

[mdrichard]

Thailand needs help with this crisis as soon as possible. The help needs to be in the form of a neutral mediator or consultant to help develop a true "roadmap toward solving the problem".

The government already offered a generous and sincere solution and it was at first accepted, but then all kinds of other silly demands were demanded. The redshirts have made their own bed. It is too bad.

Agreed. But now that this has happened and the situation dramatically worsened through the incompetence and stubbornness of some red leaders: Now what?

"Shoot them all" seems to be the current answer. Not sure that it's the best one, seeing that everyone still has to live with each other in the country after this is over.

Well, technically you only have to live together with the ones you don't shoot and kill, but your point is taken.

Some people are saying the demand the UN come in and investigate the actions of the government is because they don't trust the CIS to do it unbiased. I would agree a lack of trust on both sides is a big part of the problem. I suggest this idea of an impartial, independent investigator is not unreasonable, but only if the reds abandon their siege of the city center and go home. After all, the newest bogus claim of why they were staying is that they only want justice for April 10. Clearly, allowing UN investigators access to that data would satisfy that concern, so there would be no reason to stay on.

There are likely 2 problems with this. First, the government I'm sure doesn't want their decisions carefully scrutinized. While I believe they almost certainly acted within the confines of the law, nobody wants to be put on trial even if they are innocent. So they would likely hesitate, but in the end if they can't defend or are unwilling to accept the consequence of their decisions they shouldn't have made them.

The second problem is that the violent red leaders don't give a whiff about justice or the innocent people that were killed. So calling their bluff would not lead anywhere other than an even more absurd, extreme demand which would blow the whole deal just like they blew the roadmap. So why even bother someone like the UN with this? It will just make Thais look even more foolish.

So for now, the only practical solution is to remove all the violent red leaders by any means at your disposal. If they'd simply stop hiding among the women and children they'd make the government's job much easier and save countless lives.

I have little respect for terrorists in general, but terrorists who hid among human shields and hostages are the lowest bunch of cretins there are. Is it really so difficult to understand the "shoot them all" mentality? They haven't really left many choices.

On the contrary, the choices for a possible solution are numerous. The barrier to moving forward with getting outside help is simply a "saving face" issue. Solving a problem is very difficult when you are part of the problem. Personally, I'm saddened but not surprised at suggestions to "kill them all" as a solution but based on my experiences in Thailand it is the "beer bar mentality".

[cyb]

The PM is on a hiding to nothing, He stands back and tries to resolve it in a diplomatic way and it does not work, He stands accused of inaction.

He gets tough and people die as a result, Again he gets the blame and no mention of the real perpetrator of all this

[nakachalet]

a leader of a nation needs to act decisively and prudently under the laws....

inasmuch as i am all for apisit to date....

apisit has not to date acted decisively in any shape or form to demonstrate his conviction and policy to adequately govern this unlawful demonstration.....

apisit has not acted prudently either.... to deal with redshirts with spec and span gloves....

and to disregard the value of lives of innocent.... indirectly sacrificing them for the preservation of redshirts....

how long would the middle class tolerate these types of behavior of the leader who is highly educated in theories but surely lacking applicable experiences, so far....?

let's see what happens after the 15:00 today....?

the silence majority will not standby silently too much longer....

seeing the country is going down the hill fast.... because of apisit's, police chief's and military leaders' preferences to not act to uphold the constitution and to enforce laws and orders....

what will the defenseless middle class do.....? if history is correct.... they will do what their govt fails to do.... that is to defend their lives, freedom, liberty and justice....

and whatever and whoever are causing the major dissatisfaction will be dealt with.... as they see fit.... it won't be a pretty picture.... not at all.... particularly for thailand....

thais are very much different from farangs.... while very very few among us would give our lives for our leaders....

thais would happily and willingly defend the royal family with their own lives.... without any question asked....

many cheers for the thai citizen around the world as well....

Edited May 17, 2010 by nakachalet

[george]

Closed. This story continues here:

Red-Shirt Leaders Turn Themselves In At National Police Office

Rajprasong rally ends; protesters to go home

Full story:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Red-Shirt-Le...al-t366886.html

Live updates Wednesday:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Bangkok-Red-...html&st=100