How Do You Spell The Word For 'go'?

[Murf]

I am self confessed lazy, but i found the Benjawan Poomsan Becker books really good.

I would try Thai for Beginners, even if you are lazy like me, it should help you.

[ianwuk]

I am now trying to learn how to pronounce trousers 'gaang gaehng' using the correct tones.

What are the tones used as when I listen to it I can hear a subtle difference but I cannot reproduce it myself?

Is there an easy way to say it correctly?

Thanks.

ianwuk

[Peppy]

I am now trying to learn how to pronounce trousers 'gaang gaehng' using the correct tones.

What are the tones used as when I listen to it I can hear a subtle difference but I cannot reproduce it myself?

Is there an easy way to say it correctly?

Thanks.

ianwuk

Both syllables that make up "gaang geng" (กางเกง for those that read Thai) are mid-tones, but you're probably getting caught up on the vowels more than anything. The vowel (aa อา) in "gaang" sounds kind of like what the doctor tells you to say when he wants to check your throat: "ahh". The vowel (e เอ) in "geng" sounds like the "ay" in hay, say, day or way, but a little shorter. Also, noting your use of "g" to show the initial consonant sound in both syllables: The initial sound isn't exactly like the English "g"; it's more 'halfway' between a "k" and a "g". Most transliteration systems use a "k" to show this sound (and "kh" to show the actual "k" sound), both for this reason and the fact that "g" is often pronounced "j" in English when it precedes an "e" or "i", like in the English words "gem" and "gist".

To get the mid-tone sound, say "gaang geng" (with the correct vowel sounds, as above) in kind of a monotone, like a robot. Then listen to the way Thais say it and keep trying to copy them. You'll get it eventually.

[anchan42]

I am now trying to learn how to pronounce trousers 'gaang gaehng' using the correct tones.

What are the tones used as when I listen to it I can hear a subtle difference but I cannot reproduce it myself?

Is there an easy way to say it correctly?

Thanks.

ianwuk

Both syllables that make up "gaang geng" (กางเกง for those that read Thai) are mid-tones, but you're probably getting caught up on the vowels more than anything. The vowel (aa อา) in "gaang" sounds kind of like what the doctor tells you to say when he wants to check your throat: "ahh". The vowel (e เอ) in "geng" sounds like the "ay" in hay, say, day or way, but a little shorter. Also, noting your use of "g" to show the initial consonant sound in both syllables: The initial sound isn't exactly like the English "g"; it's more 'halfway' between a "k" and a "g". Most transliteration systems use a "k" to show this sound (and "kh" to show the actual "k" sound), both for this reason and the fact that "g" is often pronounced "j" in English when it precedes an "e" or "i", like in the English words "gem" and "gist".

To get the mid-tone sound, say "gaang geng" (with the correct vowel sounds, as above) in kind of a monotone, like a robot. Then listen to the way Thais say it and keep trying to copy them. You'll get it eventually.

I think we need to go back to aspiration feature again.

/g/ as in get = voiced unaspirated. This sound does not exist in Thai.

/k/ as in sky = unvoiced unaspirated. This is the ก sound as in กางเกง

/kh/ as in kiss = unvoiced aspirated. This is the ค sound.

More details about this can be found in http://slice-of-thai.com/consonant-sounds/#gk

[Samuian]

ไป sounds like - "pai" any further comments about the if's and but's of thai language are superfluous!

just take the name for the island of Puket - how it is often spelled in english - it does NOT make sense!

Pho Phi Phi, Ko Phaghan... myrids of samples...

Pbai... is rediculous!

Got to be creations from the ministry of inactive posts!

[anchan42]

ไป sounds like - "pai" any further comments about the if's and but's of thai language are superfluous!

No, they are essential if you want to speak Thai clearly. Spelling, transliteration and pronunciation are not the same things. Don't get them confused.

Saying ไป is the same as ไพ is like saying "vet" is the same as "wet". They are completely different sound.

The spelling for the word "go" in Thai is ไป and not "pai" or "bai" or even "pbai"

[ianwuk]

Thanks for this everyone

I am still working on my pronunciation for 'gaang gaehng'.

ianwuk

[KunMatt]

hi

just to add to the mix; the book I got on my Thai language course spells it 'bpai'

but my favourite, a well-worn one from 1989 has 'pai'

for the number eight/8 i have options of 'bpaed' or 'paet'

I don't think there is an exact way of writing Thai words in English?

Happy to be corrected, but there is little consistency in basic signage let alone sentences. We are just back from touring Chanthaburi and Trat, the variations between my two Thai/English maps were a warning, then we'd find a third or fourth option on the actual town signs.

Makes life interesting.

THANK YOU! I thought I was going mad. I've been in Isaan for the last 4 weeks and picking up Thai without a book and I thought I was doing ok at it, I can be left alone with my gfs mum or dad and have little back and forths and such. So yesterday for the first time I figure I should really start using the Thai Learning Course book I brought months ago to aid me here but a lot of what I have learned here, or what I thought I understood, is different to the book.

For starters, like you say, Go = "Bai", that's exactly how I've heard it and been using it for a month, but it's "Pai" in the book. My gf also said it's pronounced "Pai"

And Eight = "Paet" in the book and I've always said "Beht", little things like that have been frustrating me the more I read this book. It wouldn't be so hard if the slightest difference is pronounciation or tone doesn't change the word you are trying to say. I can speak good basic Mandarin, Russian, even Finnish, but Thai is proving quite tough for me right now.

Also, "Set leow" is what I've been using for "finished", as in "I've finished making this", but according to the book "Set Leow" means "Ready", I can kinda understand why but and Finish is "Loek" in the book, which my gf does not agree with!

I think I'm about ready to throw my hands up and admit I need some guidance, what's the best process or steps to get on with this? Right now I feel like I'm trying to run before I can crawl!

I'm finding learning expressions or sentances rather than single words more helpful as the single words are so grey to me when it comes to pronounciation and because Thais talk so quickly (and with their mouths full) that it's very difficult to hear the exactly word, opposed to if I know a common sentance then I can use it and understand it. Conversely in Mandarin I was able to learn single words as I needed them and construct sentances quite easily and logically.

BTW, I'm quite surprised at some of the similarities between Thai and Mandarin, many words are the same for the same meaning, some numbers are the same, question and answer structure is similar - Mandarin puts "ma" at the end of the sentance to create a question/Thai uses "mai"; simply repeating the verb means yes/ putting "mei" before verb means no in both languages (sometimes "bu" in Mandarin). Anyone got any further reading on this?

[Totsagan]

Thanks again for all of this

Can you recommend me any decent books or computer software to help me learn Thai?

I have also heard that listening to Thai music helps, do you have any suggestions regarding that?

Thanks very much.

ianwuk

If you are in Bangkok, go to AUA and purchase their set of 6 books. I think it cost about 2000 baht for the set.

As a previous poster noted, you are better off learning the Thai alphabet to study the language.

Make some flash cards. You could learn the alphabet in a week.

Otherwise, every instructional book on Thai that you read will have a different phonetic spelling for Thai words resulting in a lot of confusion and mispronuciation.

[KunMatt]

One more niggle I don't understand;

Why are there words spelled with an "R" in Thai when Thais don't pronounce "Rs"? For instance "arai" (what), I have never heard any time say "arai", only "alai" which is how I have learnt it!

Aswell as Bs and Ps sounding the same from a Thai, there's Gs and Ks - Gai (chicken) and Kai (egg) is virtually the same word!

[farangnahrak]

A trick I learned for reading transliteration with all its random spellings is to simply ignore the spelling. Your mind has been trained to link only one spelling to just one word. Instead you should just pronounce it out, then ask yourself what word does it sound like, and how does it fit with the other words.

UKMatt, there are many dialects, some pronounce out r, some swap it to L, and others just remove it entirely. You'll have people of each dialect insist their way is the correct way. You just got to get used to it, and its not going to be easy . . .

[bhoydy]

Also, "Set leow" is what I've been using for "finished", as in "I've finished making this", but according to the book "Set Leow" means "Ready", I can kinda understand why but and Finish is "Loek" in the book, which my gf does not agree with!

set leow is correct for finished if you are in the middle of something. loek in this context is more like stop as in i've stopped smoking loek leow. it could be used as finish though for example to talk about a relationship - i finished with her, loek gan loew

The pronunciation will always be a problem, because you don't know the correct sounds and the only way to do that is to learn the alphabet and tones. There's no great secret, just work. After 4 weeks you should be proud that you can throw things back and forth. I see what you say about wanting to run before you walk and actually you can do both. You can learn the phrases and you can learn the single words as well. They will both help in your understanding of the language. My reading and writing skills on the whole are about primary school level 3 but at the same time i know how to speak, read and write words of a much higher level because of things i'm interested in, for instance, politics.

[anchan42]

Aswell as Bs and Ps sounding the same from a Thai, there's Gs and Ks - Gai (chicken) and Kai (egg) is virtually the same word!

Try this "ใครขายไข่ไก่"

[markg]

One more niggle I don't understand;

Why are there words spelled with an "R" in Thai when Thais don't pronounce "Rs"? For instance "arai" (what), I have never heard any time say "arai", only "alai" which is how I have learnt it!

Aswell as Bs and Ps sounding the same from a Thai, there's Gs and Ks - Gai (chicken) and Kai (egg) is virtually the same word!

The problem is in the author trying to transliterate Thai into English.

As a silly example, try to WRITE down the exact sound YOU make when you sneeze.

Then get someone to read it back.

Sound the same? Nah !!!

Gai and Kai are similar but you can hear the subtle difference if you listen closely.

Trying to transliterate 'go' is hard, though because 'b' and 'p' are so similar in sounding, i do like 'bpai'

I once went out with a Thai girl called Jurairat. Or Chutrairat. Or Tjutrairat. - Almost impossible to transliterate accurately. In fact, immigration at K.L. had a right ding-dong with her because she couldnt spell her name in English. Of course she can't - but she CAN spell it correctly in Thai !

Like someone said, its better to learn the Thai alphabet and do it that way. Also, learning a TONAL language from a book is nearly impossible unless there is an accompanying cd or MP3

[meadish_sweetball]

I have never heard any time say "arai", only "alai" which is how I have learnt it!

The ร's are pronounced by, for example, news readers, and in formal speeches/announcements, as well as in some Thai songs. Certain individuals also pronounce them right across the board, but you're right the /l/ sound is much more common.

[mangkorn]

ไป sounds like - "pai" any further comments about the if's and but's of thai language are superfluous!

No, they are essential if you want to speak Thai clearly. Spelling, transliteration and pronunciation are not the same things. Don't get them confused.

Saying ไป is the same as ไพ is like saying "vet" is the same as "wet". They are completely different sound.

The spelling for the word "go" in Thai is ไป and not "pai" or "bai" or even "pbai"

Khun anchan: you are correct, of course. But the reason for transliterating ป as "bp" is only to signal to farangs that it's neither "b" nor "p" - with the implied intent that they will recognize it and learn. Thus, when a teacher like Benjawan Poomsan uses it, she explains clearly at the beginning of her books and dictionaries how it should sound, same as with other Thai consonants and vowels that can't be properly written in roman script. You could argue that transliterating อื- as "eu" makes no sense either. However, in the absence of a better romanizing alternative, it actually does - if a farang has learned how to pronounce it, but hasn't yet learned to read Thai. Clearly, it is meant to be only an intermediate - and very temporary - step.

Alas, most farangs are lazy and don't learn how to read Thai. That is not the fault of the people who try to help them to learn how to pronounce Thai.

I have farang colleagues who, despite many years of working in คลองเตย, still pronounce เตย as "toe-y." It is maddening, but that's because it is transliterated as "Toei," and they are evidently incapable of going beyond what they see on a sign. The other day, during the riots, I had to refer to the district in an English-language news story, and so I wrote it as "Dteuy" - just to see what would happen (it didn't matter to me, frankly). One of the editors insisted that it should be "Toei," to which I replied: "Well, you can write it anyway you choose, but I will pronounce correctly for you first - and then leave it up to you."

After hearing me say it, she decided not to change it. (After five years, she had apparently never noticed the proper pronunciation of the word...)

Everyone who comes to live here should learn how to speak - and read - Thai. Sadly, 99 percent of them don't, and they won't.

That is truly shameful, but also shamefully true.

Cheers.

Edited May 31, 2010 by mangkorn

[sigeena]

BTW, I'm quite surprised at some of the similarities between Thai and Mandarin, many words are the same for the same meaning, some numbers are the same, question and answer structure is similar - Mandarin puts "ma" at the end of the sentance to create a question/Thai uses "mai"; simply repeating the verb means yes/ putting "mei" before verb means no in both languages (sometimes "bu" in Mandarin). Anyone got any further reading on this?

Well, if you are familiar with Mandarin, you should be able to make quicker links when learning Thai. At least, you'll not run amok hearing different tones, and not differentiating them.

If you used Pinyin as your system of learning Mandarin, a similar comparison can be made for the 'b' sound of Pinyin. That which you use for 'bai' (white), 'ba-ba' (father), 'Ba-Li' (Paris)

This is the same 'b' sound for 'pai' Go. The Thais used 'p' because this is their system. In their system, the 'b' sound is the same as the 'boy' and 'bravo' in English.

So spelling 8 and Go as Beht and Bai in the Pinyin system is quite logical. But spelling it in the Thai system would be wrong.

2 Bees that don't quite see eye to eye.

[farangnahrak]

You could argue that transliterating อื- as "eu" makes no sense either.

I've read that อื sounds exactly like "eu" in French. I don't speak French however, so someone else will have to verify . . .

I have farang colleagues who, despite many years of working in คลองเตย, still pronounce เตย as "toe-y." It is maddening, but that's because it is transliterated as "Toei," and they are evidently incapable of going beyond what they see on a sign. The other day, during the riots, I had to refer to the district in an English-language news story, and so I wrote it as "Dteuy" - just to see what would happen (it didn't matter to me, frankly). One of the editors insisted that it should be "Toei," to which I replied: "Well, you can write it anyway you choose, but I will pronounce correctly for you first - and then leave it up to you."

I understand, but I usually try to spell it the 'correct' way anyway so it can be Googled or looked up on a map. A 'normal' person would think 'Dteuy' and 'Toei' are entirely different places . . . and then I would put the Thai spelling next to it, and perhaps a (pronounced like Dteuy) as well.

And mangkorn, if all farang spoke Thai, you and I would no longer be 'special'.

[DavidHouston]

Khun Mangkorn,

There is another perspective or objective, that is, that the written word in a newspaper should reflect how the reader is used to seeing the written representation of a particular item, person, or place. Most people who have studied in school beyond the third grade do not pronounce words that are written - otherwise known as reading with your lips moving. Their eyes see the word Klong Toei and they associate that proper noun with the specific Bangkok location. They do not a) view the word; make the appropriate sound; c) comprehend the location. Visual comprehension is much more important than a guide to pronunciation. This is especially true for English where phonetic spelling has never caught on very well and where we, as native speakers, almost never try to deduce pronunciation from spelling.

There are many other examples. If I recall correctly, the Royal Institute in its paper on transcription to romanization says that they allow for exceptions in spelling for words which people are historically used to seeing. Consider that foreigners refer to the capital city of Thailand as Bangkok, even though Bangkok is the name of a subset or subdivisions of the larger city; the Thais know the city as Krungthep, a name not used in travel brochures.

(And, as an aside, let us not forget how we English speakers regularly and routinely mangle, distort, and bastardize foreign words when we bring them into the bosom of our native tongue. My personal local favorite is how we make ฝรั่ีง into "fay-lang" - accent on the first syllable.)

My conclusion is that we should not be overly anxious about well-established, but deviant, spellings, like Klong Toei.

Thanks.

Edited June 1, 2010 by DavidHouston

[meadish_sweetball]

I've read that อื sounds exactly like "eu" in French. I don't speak French however, so someone else will have to verify . . .

I do speak French (well, that's a bit of a stretch as it has been 12 years since I last tried, but I did study it for 6 years and I can pronounce it fairly accurately), and have to disappoint in saying that 'eu' does not correspond to the Thai sound in any of the two ways it is pronounced in French (contrast the words 'professeur' (teacher) ( http://french.about.com/library/media/wavs/professeur.wav ) and 'bleu' (blue) ( http://french.about.com/library/media/wavs/bleu.wav ). (Click the links to the right of the words to hear how they are pronounced). Contrast this with the Thai sound here: อื

If you familiarize yourself with how vowel charts work they are a great shortcut to better pronunciation when you learn a new language. Brief explanation: The vowel chart represents your oral cavity. The left hand side of the chart is the front of the mouth and the right hand side corresponds to the back of the mouth. The horizontal axis represents the horizontal position of the tongue inside the mouth, while the positions on the vertical axis represent the vertical position of the tongue inside the mouth.

The อื in Thai is an unrounded back vowel. Unrounded means the lips have to be spread. No major languages in Western Europe have any unrounded back vowels.

French vowel chart ( http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...vowel_chart.png ):

In the French vowel chart, 'eu' is represented by the symbols (in 'professeur') and (in 'bleu').

Thai vowel chart. Thai อื is represented by the symbol ɯ in the chart.

As you can see by comparing the positions in the chart, the French sounds are both front vowels whereas the Thai one is a back vowel.

[anchan42]

Khun anchan: you are correct, of course. But the reason for transliterating ป as "bp" is only to signal to farangs that it's neither "b" nor "p" - with the implied intent that they will recognize it and learn. Thus, when a teacher like Benjawan Poomsan uses it, she explains clearly at the beginning of her books and dictionaries how it should sound, same as with other Thai consonants and vowels that can't be properly written in roman script. You could argue that transliterating อื- as "eu" makes no sense either. However, in the absence of a better romanizing alternative, it actually does - if a farang has learned how to pronounce it, but hasn't yet learned to read Thai. Clearly, it is meant to be only an intermediate - and very temporary - step.

.....

I have no problem with phonetic transcription. I do understand that it can be invaluable tool but we need to understand that there are many systems around and each of them can be completely different.

So to ask if ไป should be “pai” or “bai” or “pbai” without referring to the system you are using is pointless and such questions can not be answered correctly. Without a reference system every answer can be all correct or incorrect.

It just likes asking for directions on the phone without telling where you currently are. It’s impossible.

People also get confused between transliteration, phonetic transcription and spelling. Common complaint is that why transliteration does not work like phonetic transcription. The answer to that is because they are completely different.

So if you use a book and have questions about phonetic transcription, the first thing you should do is check what system the book use and ask yourself if you understand the system, if you know what sound each of the symbol supposed to represent. After that you should be able to ask the right questions.

[mangkorn]

I agree completely, Khun anchan. The absence of a single standard transliteration system makes the whole thing pointless. But any system used may have some temporary value (a matter of weeks) - if the purpose is to signal the pronunciation of unfamiliar vowels and consonants - to a serious student, who would then quickly learn to read Thai. Personally, I can't understand why anyone would want to live in a country without being able to speak, or read, the language. They can make all the excuses that get them through the night, but it all comes down to laziness, pure and simple.

[SoftWater]

I have no problem with phonetic transcription. I do understand that it can be invaluable tool but we need to understand that there are many systems around and each of them can be completely different.

So to ask if ไป should be "pai" or "bai" or "pbai" without referring to the system you are using is pointless and such questions can not be answered correctly. Without a reference system every answer can be all correct or incorrect.

It just likes asking for directions on the phone without telling where you currently are. It's impossible.

People also get confused between transliteration, phonetic transcription and spelling. Common complaint is that why transliteration does not work like phonetic transcription. The answer to that is because they are completely different.

So if you use a book and have questions about phonetic transcription, the first thing you should do is check what system the book use and ask yourself if you understand the system, if you know what sound each of the symbol supposed to represent. After that you should be able to ask the right questions.

Good lord, can't believe the OPs question needed 51 posts to get to the answer!

Well done Anchan.

[mangkorn]

Khun Mangkorn,

There is another perspective or objective, that is, that the written word in a newspaper should reflect how the reader is used to seeing the written representation of a particular item, person, or place. Most people who have studied in school beyond the third grade do not pronounce words that are written - otherwise known as reading with your lips moving. Their eyes see the word Klong Toei and they associate that proper noun with the specific Bangkok location. They do not a) view the word; make the appropriate sound; c) comprehend the location...

...My conclusion is that we should not be overly anxious about well-established, but deviant, spellings, like Klong Toei.

Khun David: I agree with you. I personally have nothing invested in different transcriptions or transliterations. I long ago stopped fretting over horrid abominations like "Suvarnabhumi," "River Kwai," et.al. They exist, and always will, in spite of forcing the uninitiated to mispronounce key place names. But I don't have to pay attention to them, so I don't, and I don't really care.

In my example, as I attempted to point out, I only did it as an experiment to tweak a farang who lives and works here, but has refused to learn any Thai in years.

Call it a minor act of subversion in the workplace. At least, I didn't set the city on fire in my wholly insignificant rebellion...