Bangkok Gripped By Looting And Arson

[lannarebirth]

Can someone please tell me whats going on in Siam square, I have family members that owns a business in Siam square. If it gets destroyed I can never forgive the red shirts.

We know there was a fire there and the Siam Theatre was destroyed. We know that red shirts were in a gunfight there and many shops were looted. I'm not sure the extent of the fire damage to the shops. I hope your family will be OK.

[kblaze]

<snip>

7/11 Lang Suan... not gone up in smoke, but looted beyond recognition, as many, many other shops all over.

"Looted beyond recognition" - Wow! Did they nick the sign too?

"looted beyond recognition" What is so tough to figure out guy? A store usually contains lots of things and is orderly. After looting there may be little if no things left inside and in disorder, hence not looking like a recognizable store.

....slow?

[HaPyro721]

Can someone please tell me whats going on in Siam square, I have family members that owns a business in Siam square. If it gets destroyed I can never forgive the red shirts.

We know there was a fire there and the Siam Theatre was destroyed. We know that red shirts were in a gunfight there and many shops were looted. I'm not sure the extent of the fire damage to the shops. I hope your family will be OK.

My Aunt own Ying Kitchen right on the other side of the Theater I hope its still there.

[lannarebirth]

Dear Thaksin,

There is no pit in hel_l low enough for you. Your role in the suffering of Thailand will be a permanent stain on Thai history. A human travesty.

I do understand what Thaksin has done for his part in this mess

And also that the intervention of the current government was to save the day back then when the Military coup came.

But we still must see that the current gov is still classifiable as a dictatorship

take Thaksin away and there would still be a mutiny, at least later if not yet, because Thai people don't want another dictatorship and want democracy.

Unfortunately i have to agree with a famous Thai monk who has been part of a tv campaign to make Thai people understand and find peace with each other;

he says it is only when our hearts change that corruption will be gone.

That each person should start with himself.

As long as people have corrupt hearts then corruption will be reflected in the face of society

The intent of the heart of the majority is what makes a nation corrupt or not.

Instead of arguing about different views, people should just focus on trying to behave well themselves - it is only by example that we can teach others to follow the lead.

The current government is not a dictatorship. That is ludicrous and a false comment. Your post makes me question if either you or the "Thai people" you speak for understand how a democracy works.

[deepskyfreak]

I tuned into BBC for a change, usually watching Thai news on various channels (to get different viewpoints or have a good laugh with ASTV). Gosh, BBC is so beyond it, even though their reporters are in the middle of it.

The farang interview partners they drag along are worse than some posters on Thaivisa. The tragedy is that half of the world watches this crap and believes it.

BBC should switch to reporting from volcanic eruptions and space shuttle launches only... can't do anything wrong with those subjects.

[DagonKhan]

I tuned into BBC for a change, usually watching Thai news on various channels (to get different viewpoints or have a good laugh with ASTV). Gosh, BBC is so beyond it, even though their reporters are in the middle of it.

The farang interview partners they drag along are worse than some posters on Thaivisa. The tragedy is that half of the world watches this crap and believes it.

BBC should switch to reporting from volcanic eruptions and space shuttle launches only... can't do anything wrong with those subjects.

What was wrong with the BBC report you saw?

[anon8]

agreed, deepskyfreak, BBC has no clue. They always seemed not biased and competent .. maybe they never where? When they cover Pakistan I simply believed them, cos they are The BBC. turns out they are just CNN with better sentence structure.

[lannarebirth]

sorry posting issues

Edited May 19, 2010 by lannarebirth

[lannarebirth]

sorry double post

Edited May 19, 2010 by lannarebirth

[lannarebirth]

I tuned into BBC for a change, usually watching Thai news on various channels (to get different viewpoints or have a good laugh with ASTV). Gosh, BBC is so beyond it, even though their reporters are in the middle of it.

The farang interview partners they drag along are worse than some posters on Thaivisa. The tragedy is that half of the world watches this crap and believes it.

BBC should switch to reporting from volcanic eruptions and space shuttle launches only... can't do anything wrong with those subjects.

I called my dad in the states tonight to wish him a happy birthday. He was quite apprehensive about the state of things in Thailand and from watching US news channels was under the impressiom that the current PM was not currently elected and if he were it really didn't matter because the Army was now running the government and indiscriminately killing poor farmers. He said Thaksin was portrayed as the true government, in exile. It took me 20 minutes to disabuse him of all the propaganda he'd been fed by the "mainstream media". The malignant pustule Amsterdam seems to be good at his work.

Edited May 19, 2010 by lannarebirth

[lannarebirth]

sorry double post

Edited May 19, 2010 by lannarebirth

[thailandfaq]

Dear Thaksin,

There is no pit in hel_l low enough for you. Your role in the suffering of Thailand will be a permanent stain on Thai history. A human travesty.

I do understand what Thaksin has done for his part in this mess

And also that the intervention of the current government was to save the day back then when the Military coup came.

But we still must see that the current gov is still classifiable as a dictatorship

take Thaksin away and there would still be a mutiny, at least later if not yet, because Thai people don't want another dictatorship and want democracy.

Unfortunately i have to agree with a famous Thai monk who has been part of a tv campaign to make Thai people understand and find peace with each other;

he says it is only when our hearts change that corruption will be gone.

That each person should start with himself.

As long as people have corrupt hearts then corruption will be reflected in the face of society

The intent of the heart of the majority is what makes a nation corrupt or not.

Instead of arguing about different views, people should just focus on trying to behave well themselves - it is only by example that we can teach others to follow the lead.

The current government is not a dictatorship. That is ludicrous and a false comment. Your post makes me question if either you or the "Thai people" you speak for understand how a democracy works.

The current gov was not voted in a democratic election.

The current government usurped the previous one with a military coup

Whether they did a good thing or not or are heroes or not is not something i wish to discuss.. they can be good or bad and their action may be necessary or not.. thats not my point.

My point is that a gov which got in with a military coup, and did not have a fair, and democratic election process allowing all parties to enter the challenge, is a Dictatorship, and undemocratic.

This doesn't mean i don't prefer them to Thaksin though

But it is not a democratic government, it is a Dictatorship in the legal definition of the word.

[deepskyfreak]

I tuned into BBC for a change, usually watching Thai news on various channels (to get different viewpoints or have a good laugh with ASTV). Gosh, BBC is so beyond it, even though their reporters are in the middle of it.

The farang interview partners they drag along are worse than some posters on Thaivisa. The tragedy is that half of the world watches this crap and believes it.

BBC should switch to reporting from volcanic eruptions and space shuttle launches only... can't do anything wrong with those subjects.

What was wrong with the BBC report you saw?

I am just on again and watch it right now. What a change to the news a couple hours ago. The first time they clearly pointed out to the looters and armed rioters. And the interview with a Thai academic (Thai ambassador to US) was also a first, rather than interviewing some farang resident who does not know anything about Thailand.

My apology to BBC - that one (just ended a minute ago) was so much closer to reality.

[retdson]

Here - I'm going to cut and paste the lot. The best comment yet on international media. Apologies to those who've already read it.

The original is here:-

http://www.somtow.org/2010/05/dont-blame-dan-rivers.html

I have been composing a long, day by day account of the "troubles" of the last three days, which I have not yet posted. The reason is that I've been getting a lot of mail asking me to explain "the truth" to people overseas. A lot of people here are astonished and appalled at the level of irresponsibility and inaccuracy shown by such major news sources as CNN, and are imputing the most astonishing motives to this, such as suggesting that they're in the pay of Thaksin and so on.

I don't think this is really what is going on. Rather, I think that there are two basic problems: preconception and language.

CNN first became a force to be reckoned with during the "People Power" movement in the Philippines. The kind of coverage we had for this was amazing. There was a camera in every camp, and we could follow this exciting revolution every step of the way. We knew exactly who to root for: the oppressed masses led by the widow of the iconic Aquino, and we knew that whenever President Marcos appeared he was Darth Vader, the symbol of an evil empire. The arc of the story was simple and inexorable. A whole new way of looking at the news was born, with all the excitement of a TV miniseries and, prophetically, a reality show as well.

Of course, many of the little details of the story were conveniently glossed over. Reality was not — never is — so black and white. But there are three important things about this story: first, in its essentials, there was a lot of truth. And all the protagonists spoke English.

The Philippines, as Filipinos never tire of telling me, is the third most populous English speaking country in the world. We will leave the definition of "English-speaking" to another blog, but it's very important that the various sides in this conflict were able to articulate their viewpoints in a language which CNN well understood.

The third important thing about the story is that it fulfilled a vision of history that is an inseparable part of the inheritance of western culture, that is so ingrained in western thinking that it is virtually impossible for an educated member of western society to divorce himself from it.

It is a vision of history as a series of liberations. From Harmodius and Aristogeiton throwing off the tyrant's yoke to the removal of the Tarquins and the establishment of the Roman Republic to the failed rebellion of Spartacus, from Magna Carta to the Bastille to the American Civil War to the Russian Revolution, there is this Platonic Model against which these big historical movements are always compared. There is a bad guy — often a dictator — who can be demonized. There is a struggling proletariat. The end comes with "liberty and justice for all". This is Star Wars. The dark times. The Empire.

The "People Power" coverage was riveting, compelling, and contained all the emotional components of this mythical story arc. Finding another such story, therefore, is a kind of Holy Grail for the international media. When a story comes that appears to contain some of the elements, and it's too much hard work to verify those elements or get all the background detail, you go with the Great Archetype of Western Civilization.

Now, let us consider the redshirt conflict.

Let's not consider what has actually been happening in Thailand, but how it looks to someone whose worldview has been coloured with this particular view of history.

Let's consider the fact that there is pretty much nothing being explained in English, and that there are perhaps a dozen foreigners who really understand Thai thoroughly. I don't mean Thai for shopping, bargirls, casual conversation and the like. Thai is a highly ambiguous language and is particularly well suited for seeming to say opposite things simultaneously. To get what is really being said takes total immersion.

When you watch a red shirt rally, notice how many English signs and placards there are, and note that they they are designed to show that these are events conforming to the archetype. The placards say "Democracy", "No Violence," "Stop killing innocent women and children" and so on. Speakers are passionately orating, crowds are moved. But there are no subtitles. What does it look like?

The answer is obvious. It looks like oppressed masses demanding freedom from an evil dictator.

Don't blame Dan Rivers, et al, who are only doing what they are paid to do: find the compelling story within the mass of incomprehensible data, match that story to what the audience already knows and believes, and make sure the advertising money keeps flowing in.

A vigorous counter-propaganda campaign in clear and simple English words of one syllable has always been lacking and is the reason the government is losing the PR war while actually following the most logical steps toward a real and lasting resolution.

If the foreign press were in fact able to speak Thai well enough to follow all the reportage here coming from all sides, they would also be including some of the following information in their reports. I want to insist yet again that I am not siding with anyone. The following is just information that people really need before they write their news reports.

-- Thaksin was democratically elected, but became increasingly undemocratic, and the country gradually devolved from a nation where oligarchs skimmed off the top to a kleptocracy of one. During his watch, thousands of people were summarily executed in the South of Thailand and in a bizarre "war on drugs" in which body count was considered a marker of success.

-- the coup that ousted Thaksin was of course completely illegal, but none of the people who carried it out are in the present government.

-- the yellow shirts' greatest error in moulding its international image was to elevate Thaksin's corruption as its major bone of contention. Thai governments have always been corrupt. The extent of corruption and the fact that much of it went into only one pocket was shocking to Thais, but the west views all "second-rate countries" as being corrupt. Had they used the human rights violations and muzzling of the press as their key talking points, the "heroic revolution" archetype would have been moulded with opposite protagonists, and CNN and BBC would be telling an opposite story today.

-- the constitution which was approved by a referendum after the coup and which brought back democracy was flawed, but it provided more checks and balances, and made election fraud a truly accountable offense for the first time.

-- the parliamentary process by which the Democrat coalition came to power was the same process by which the Lib Dems and Tories have attained power in Britain. The parliament that voted in this government consists entirely of democratically elected members.

-- no one ever disputed the red shirts' right to peaceful assembly, and the government went out of its way to accede to their demands.

-- this country already has democracy. Not a perfect one, but the idea of "demanding democracry" is sheer fantasy

-- the yellow shirts did not succeed in getting any of their demands from the government. The last two governments changed because key figures were shown to have committed election fraud. They simply did not take their own constitution seriously enough to follow it.

-- the red TV station has a perfect right to exist, but if foreign journalists actually understood Thai, they would realize that much of its content went far beyond any constitutionally acceptable limits of "protected speech" in a western democracy. Every civilized society limits speech when it actually harms others, whether by inciting hate or by slander. The government may have been wrong to brusquely pull the plug, but was certainly right to cry foul. It should have sought an injunction first. Example: Arisman threatened to destroy mosques, government buildings, and "all institutions you hold sacred" ... a clip widely seen on youtube, without subtitles. Without subtitles, it looks like "liberty, equality, fraternity".

-- the army hasn't been shooting women and children ... or indeed anyone at all, except in self-defense. Otherwise this would all be over, wouldn't it? It's simple for a big army to mow down 5,000 defenseless people.

-- since the government called the red shirts' bluff and allowed the deputy P.M. to report to the authorities to hear their accusations, the red leaders have been making ever-more fanciful demands. The idea of UN intervention is patently absurd. When Thaksin killed all those Muslims and alleged drug lords, human rights groups asked the UN to intervene. When the army took over the entire country, some asked the UN to intervene. The UN doesn't intervene in the internal affairs of sovereign countries except when requested to by the country itself or when the government has completely broken down.

-- Thailand hasn't had an unbreachable gulf between rich and poor for at least 20 years. These conflicts are about the rise of the middle class, not the war between the aristocrats and the proletariat.

-- Abhisit, with his thoroughly western and somewhat liberal background, shares the values of the west and is in fact more likely to bring about the social revolution needed by Thailand's agrarian poor than any previous leader. He is, in fact, pretty red, while Thaksin, in his autocratic style of leadership, is in a way pretty yellow. Simplistic portrayals do not help anyone to understand anything.

-- the only people who do not seem to care about the reds' actual grievances are their own leaders, who are basically making everyone risk their lives to see if they can get bail.

-- the King has said all that he is constitutionally able to say when he spoke to the supreme court justices and urged them to do their duty. The western press never seem to realize that the Thai monarchy is constitutionally on the European model ... not, say, the Saudi model. The king REIGNS ... he doesn't "rule". This is a democracy. The king is supposed to symbolize all the people, not a special interest group.

The above are just a few of the elements that needed to be sorted through in order to provide a balanced view of what is happening in this country.

There is one final element that must be mentioned. Most are not even aware of it. But there is, in the western mindset, a deeply ingrained sense of the moral superiority of western culture which carries with it the idea that a third world country must by its very nature be ruled by despots, oppress peasants, and kill and torture people. Most westerners become very insulted when this is pointed out to them because our deepest prejudices are always those of which we are least aware. I believe that there is a streak of this crypto-racism in some of the reportage we are seeing in the west. It is because of this that Baghdad, Yangon, and Bangkok are being treated as the same thing. We all look alike.

Yes, this opinion is always greeted with outrage. I do my best to face my own preconceptions and don't succeed that often, but I acknowledge they exist nonetheless.

Some of the foreign press are painting the endgame as the Alamo, but it is not. It is a lot closer to Jonestown or Waco.

Like those latter two cases, a highly charismatic leader figure (in our case operating from a distance, shopping in Paris while his minions sweat in the 94°weather) has taken an inspirational idea: in one case Christianity, in the other democracy, and reinvented it so that mainstream Christians, or real democrats, can no longer recognize it. The followers are trapped. There is a siege mentality and information coming from outside is screened so that those trapped believe they will be killed if they try to leave. Women and children are being told that they are in danger if they fall into the hands of the government, and to distrust the medics and NGOs waiting to help them. There are outraged pronouncements that they're not in fact using the children as human shields, but that the parents brought them willingly to "entertain and thrill" them. There is mounting paranoia coupled with delusions of grandeur, so that the little red kingdom feels it has the right to summon the United Nations, just like any other sovereign state. The reporters in Rajprasong who are attached to the red community are as susceptible to this variant of the Stockholm syndrome as anyone else.

The international press must separate out the very real problems that the rural areas of Thailand face, which will take decades to fix, from the fact that a mob is rampaging through Bangkok, burning, looting, and firing grenades, threatening in the name of democracy to destroy what democracy yet remains in this country.

But this bad reporting is not their fault. It is our fault for not providing the facts in bite-sized pieces, in the right language, at the right time.

Posted by Somtow Sucharitkul (S.P. Somtow)

Edited May 19, 2010 by retdson

[lannarebirth]

Dear Thaksin,

There is no pit in hel_l low enough for you. Your role in the suffering of Thailand will be a permanent stain on Thai history. A human travesty.

I do understand what Thaksin has done for his part in this mess

And also that the intervention of the current government was to save the day back then when the Military coup came.

But we still must see that the current gov is still classifiable as a dictatorship

take Thaksin away and there would still be a mutiny, at least later if not yet, because Thai people don't want another dictatorship and want democracy.

Unfortunately i have to agree with a famous Thai monk who has been part of a tv campaign to make Thai people understand and find peace with each other;

he says it is only when our hearts change that corruption will be gone.

That each person should start with himself.

As long as people have corrupt hearts then corruption will be reflected in the face of society

The intent of the heart of the majority is what makes a nation corrupt or not.

Instead of arguing about different views, people should just focus on trying to behave well themselves - it is only by example that we can teach others to follow the lead.

The current government is not a dictatorship. That is ludicrous and a false comment. Your post makes me question if either you or the "Thai people" you speak for understand how a democracy works.

The current gov was not voted in a democratic election.

That is not true. The current government was formed by a coalition of MP's each of whom was democratically elected.

The current government usurped the previous one with a military coup

That is not true. The current government was formed when the coalition partners of the previous government (who'd just been found guilty of electoral violations AGAIN) ditched their former coalition partner and decided to form a new government with the Democrats.

Whether they did a good thing or not or are heroes or not is not something i wish to discuss.. they can be good or bad and their action may be necessary or not.. thats not my point.

My point is that a gov which got in with a military coup, and did not have a fair, and democratic election process allowing all parties to enter the challenge, is a Dictatorship, and undemocratic.

We've already established that while you may believe that to be true, it is bullshit.

This doesn't mean i don't prefer them to Thaksin though

But it is not a democratic government, it is a Dictatorship in the legal definition of the word.

That's another lie, or rather the same lie repeated.

[TheItaliann]

Can someone please tell me whats going on in Siam square, I have family members that owns a business in Siam square. If it gets destroyed I can never forgive the red shirts.

Cinema is collapsed. Looting. Several buildings destroyed.

What is the business?

[gymboy33]

I tuned into BBC for a change, usually watching Thai news on various channels (to get different viewpoints or have a good laugh with ASTV). Gosh, BBC is so beyond it, even though their reporters are in the middle of it.

The farang interview partners they drag along are worse than some posters on Thaivisa. The tragedy is that half of the world watches this crap and believes it.

BBC should switch to reporting from volcanic eruptions and space shuttle launches only... can't do anything wrong with those subjects.

I called my dad in the states tonight to wish him a happy birthday. He was quite apprehensive about the state of things in Thailand and from watching US news channels was under the impressiom that the current PM was not currently elected and if he were it really didn't matter because the Army was now running the government and indiscriminately killing poor farmers. He said Thaksin was portrayed as the true government, in exile. It took me 20 minutes to disabuse him of all the propaganda he'd been fed by the "mainstream media". The malignant pustule Amsterdam seems to be good at his work.

are you being serious?

with this is how your dad saw it?

or are you just trying to make a point about the international media?

and maybe its you thats been taken in with all the local media propaganda???

because you cannot argue the local media is controlled by the goverment, can you?

and from what i see from this mr amsterdam on the al jazeera interview,,he did alright, he mangered to get his "points" across but still looked like he avoided some hard hitting questions,,but i dunno if its his work thats managing to control any international media output????

[deepskyfreak]

Dear Thaksin,

There is no pit in hel_l low enough for you. Your role in the suffering of Thailand will be a permanent stain on Thai history. A human travesty.

I do understand what Thaksin has done for his part in this mess

And also that the intervention of the current government was to save the day back then when the Military coup came.

But we still must see that the current gov is still classifiable as a dictatorship

take Thaksin away and there would still be a mutiny, at least later if not yet, because Thai people don't want another dictatorship and want democracy.

Unfortunately i have to agree with a famous Thai monk who has been part of a tv campaign to make Thai people understand and find peace with each other;

he says it is only when our hearts change that corruption will be gone.

That each person should start with himself.

As long as people have corrupt hearts then corruption will be reflected in the face of society

The intent of the heart of the majority is what makes a nation corrupt or not.

Instead of arguing about different views, people should just focus on trying to behave well themselves - it is only by example that we can teach others to follow the lead.

The current government is not a dictatorship. That is ludicrous and a false comment. Your post makes me question if either you or the "Thai people" you speak for understand how a democracy works.

80% of Thais have not been educated properly about democracy, how to apply it and its origin and history. Poltical discussions in colleges are a NO until they reach levels beyond bachelor. They are not taught (in High Schools) the different political systems that exist and existed, nor do they discuss the impact of those systems on society. So how can you assume that Thais want real democracy??

My child is in Matayom 5 and my partner has a PHD from Thailand (law related). I believe I do know the extend to which Thais understand and are able to apply democracy.

Oh and, integrity and peaceful behavior according to the teachings of Buddhism has nothing to do with this understanding for applied democracy.

Edited May 19, 2010 by deepskyfreak

[HaPyro721]

Can someone please tell me whats going on in Siam square, I have family members that owns a business in Siam square. If it gets destroyed I can never forgive the red shirts.

Cinema is collapsed. Looting. Several buildings destroyed.

What is the business?

It would appear that my Aunt restaurant was indeed effected by the fire. this is from my Cousin Twitter.

So bad to see u store kept burning via the security cam

Baanying's burned at the end

Anyway new Baanying's coming in a few weeks, hope they won't burn the new building tonight!

[elcent]

19th May is surely a BLACK DAY in history of Thailand.

Those who claimed themselves to be the patriots put a scare on the face of their loyalty for country.

Why leaders surrender. To save more loss of life or property OR just to save their own lives and carrier in politics.

While they can do it earlier through given Road Map

THIS IS A QUESTION OF THE DAY!

LONG LIVE THAILAND AND THE KING

May 19, 1992 - May 19, 2010 = Maydays exactly on the same date.

[robert1001]

You are all entitled to you views but really people, the city is burning and empty of all business.

The government killed over a dozn people in the temple-women and children.

It is going to get worse.

You were calling for war?

Well now you have it and the city is being destroyed.

The army should have NEVER moved on the people like this.

It was stupid.

You like the results so far?

Wait until it burns for weeks.

Call in the UN.

[deepskyfreak]

19th May is surely a BLACK DAY in history of Thailand.

Those who claimed themselves to be the patriots put a scare on the face of their loyalty for country.

Why leaders surrender. To save more loss of life or property OR just to save their own lives and carrier in politics.

While they can do it earlier through given Road Map

THIS IS A QUESTION OF THE DAY!

LONG LIVE THAILAND AND THE KING

May 19, 1992 - May 19, 2010 = Maydays exactly on the same date.

unfortunate coincidence...

[lannarebirth]

Here - I'm going to cut and paste the lot. The best comment yet on international media. Apologies to those who've already read it.

The original is here:-

http://www.somtow.org/2010/05/dont-blame-dan-rivers.html

I have been composing a long, day by day account of the "troubles" of the last three days, which I have not yet posted. The reason is that I've been getting a lot of mail asking me to explain "the truth" to people overseas. A lot of people here are astonished and appalled at the level of irresponsibility and inaccuracy shown by such major news sources as CNN, and are imputing the most astonishing motives to this, such as suggesting that they're in the pay of Thaksin and so on.

I don't think this is really what is going on. Rather, I think that there are two basic problems: preconception and language.

CNN first became a force to be reckoned with during the "People Power" movement in the Philippines. The kind of coverage we had for this was amazing. There was a camera in every camp, and we could follow this exciting revolution every step of the way. We knew exactly who to root for: the oppressed masses led by the widow of the iconic Aquino, and we knew that whenever President Marcos appeared he was Darth Vader, the symbol of an evil empire. The arc of the story was simple and inexorable. A whole new way of looking at the news was born, with all the excitement of a TV miniseries and, prophetically, a reality show as well.

Of course, many of the little details of the story were conveniently glossed over. Reality was not — never is — so black and white. But there are three important things about this story: first, in its essentials, there was a lot of truth. And all the protagonists spoke English.

The Philippines, as Filipinos never tire of telling me, is the third most populous English speaking country in the world. We will leave the definition of "English-speaking" to another blog, but it's very important that the various sides in this conflict were able to articulate their viewpoints in a language which CNN well understood.

The third important thing about the story is that it fulfilled a vision of history that is an inseparable part of the inheritance of western culture, that is so ingrained in western thinking that it is virtually impossible for an educated member of western society to divorce himself from it.

It is a vision of history as a series of liberations. From Harmodius and Aristogeiton throwing off the tyrant's yoke to the removal of the Tarquins and the establishment of the Roman Republic to the failed rebellion of Spartacus, from Magna Carta to the Bastille to the American Civil War to the Russian Revolution, there is this Platonic Model against which these big historical movements are always compared. There is a bad guy — often a dictator — who can be demonized. There is a struggling proletariat. The end comes with "liberty and justice for all". This is Star Wars. The dark times. The Empire.

The "People Power" coverage was riveting, compelling, and contained all the emotional components of this mythical story arc. Finding another such story, therefore, is a kind of Holy Grail for the international media. When a story comes that appears to contain some of the elements, and it's too much hard work to verify those elements or get all the background detail, you go with the Great Archetype of Western Civilization.

Now, let us consider the redshirt conflict.

Let's not consider what has actually been happening in Thailand, but how it looks to someone whose worldview has been coloured with this particular view of history.

Let's consider the fact that there is pretty much nothing being explained in English, and that there are perhaps a dozen foreigners who really understand Thai thoroughly. I don't mean Thai for shopping, bargirls, casual conversation and the like. Thai is a highly ambiguous language and is particularly well suited for seeming to say opposite things simultaneously. To get what is really being said takes total immersion.

When you watch a red shirt rally, notice how many English signs and placards there are, and note that they they are designed to show that these are events conforming to the archetype. The placards say "Democracy", "No Violence," "Stop killing innocent women and children" and so on. Speakers are passionately orating, crowds are moved. But there are no subtitles. What does it look like?

The answer is obvious. It looks like oppressed masses demanding freedom from an evil dictator.

Don't blame Dan Rivers, et al, who are only doing what they are paid to do: find the compelling story within the mass of incomprehensible data, match that story to what the audience already knows and believes, and make sure the advertising money keeps flowing in.

A vigorous counter-propaganda campaign in clear and simple English words of one syllable has always been lacking and is the reason the government is losing the PR war while actually following the most logical steps toward a real and lasting resolution.

If the foreign press were in fact able to speak Thai well enough to follow all the reportage here coming from all sides, they would also be including some of the following information in their reports. I want to insist yet again that I am not siding with anyone. The following is just information that people really need before they write their news reports.

-- Thaksin was democratically elected, but became increasingly undemocratic, and the country gradually devolved from a nation where oligarchs skimmed off the top to a kleptocracy of one. During his watch, thousands of people were summarily executed in the South of Thailand and in a bizarre "war on drugs" in which body count was considered a marker of success.

-- the coup that ousted Thaksin was of course completely illegal, but none of the people who carried it out are in the present government.

-- the yellow shirts' greatest error in moulding its international image was to elevate Thaksin's corruption as its major bone of contention. Thai governments have always been corrupt. The extent of corruption and the fact that much of it went into only one pocket was shocking to Thais, but the west views all "second-rate countries" as being corrupt. Had they used the human rights violations and muzzling of the press as their key talking points, the "heroic revolution" archetype would have been moulded with opposite protagonists, and CNN and BBC would be telling an opposite story today.

-- the constitution which was approved by a referendum after the coup and which brought back democracy was flawed, but it provided more checks and balances, and made election fraud a truly accountable offense for the first time.

-- the parliamentary process by which the Democrat coalition came to power was the same process by which the Lib Dems and Tories have attained power in Britain. The parliament that voted in this government consists entirely of democratically elected members.

-- no one ever disputed the red shirts' right to peaceful assembly, and the government went out of its way to accede to their demands.

-- this country already has democracy. Not a perfect one, but the idea of "demanding democracry" is sheer fantasy

-- the yellow shirts did not succeed in getting any of their demands from the government. The last two governments changed because key figures were shown to have committed election fraud. They simply did not take their own constitution seriously enough to follow it.

-- the red TV station has a perfect right to exist, but if foreign journalists actually understood Thai, they would realize that much of its content went far beyond any constitutionally acceptable limits of "protected speech" in a western democracy. Every civilized society limits speech when it actually harms others, whether by inciting hate or by slander. The government may have been wrong to brusquely pull the plug, but was certainly right to cry foul. It should have sought an injunction first. Example: Arisman threatened to destroy mosques, government buildings, and "all institutions you hold sacred" ... a clip widely seen on youtube, without subtitles. Without subtitles, it looks like "liberty, equality, fraternity".

-- the army hasn't been shooting women and children ... or indeed anyone at all, except in self-defense. Otherwise this would all be over, wouldn't it? It's simple for a big army to mow down 5,000 defenseless people.

-- since the government called the red shirts' bluff and allowed the deputy P.M. to report to the authorities to hear their accusations, the red leaders have been making ever-more fanciful demands. The idea of UN intervention is patently absurd. When Thaksin killed all those Muslims and alleged drug lords, human rights groups asked the UN to intervene. When the army took over the entire country, some asked the UN to intervene. The UN doesn't intervene in the internal affairs of sovereign countries except when requested to by the country itself or when the government has completely broken down.

-- Thailand hasn't had an unbreachable gulf between rich and poor for at least 20 years. These conflicts are about the rise of the middle class, not the war between the aristocrats and the proletariat.

-- Abhisit, with his thoroughly western and somewhat liberal background, shares the values of the west and is in fact more likely to bring about the social revolution needed by Thailand's agrarian poor than any previous leader. He is, in fact, pretty red, while Thaksin, in his autocratic style of leadership, is in a way pretty yellow. Simplistic portrayals do not help anyone to understand anything.

-- the only people who do not seem to care about the reds' actual grievances are their own leaders, who are basically making everyone risk their lives to see if they can get bail.

-- the King has said all that he is constitutionally able to say when he spoke to the supreme court justices and urged them to do their duty. The western press never seem to realize that the Thai monarchy is constitutionally on the European model ... not, say, the Saudi model. The king REIGNS ... he doesn't "rule". This is a democracy. The king is supposed to symbolize all the people, not a special interest group.

The above are just a few of the elements that needed to be sorted through in order to provide a balanced view of what is happening in this country.

There is one final element that must be mentioned. Most are not even aware of it. But there is, in the western mindset, a deeply ingrained sense of the moral superiority of western culture which carries with it the idea that a third world country must by its very nature be ruled by despots, oppress peasants, and kill and torture people. Most westerners become very insulted when this is pointed out to them because our deepest prejudices are always those of which we are least aware. I believe that there is a streak of this crypto-racism in some of the reportage we are seeing in the west. It is because of this that Baghdad, Yangon, and Bangkok are being treated as the same thing. We all look alike.

Yes, this opinion is always greeted with outrage. I do my best to face my own preconceptions and don't succeed that often, but I acknowledge they exist nonetheless.

Some of the foreign press are painting the endgame as the Alamo, but it is not. It is a lot closer to Jonestown or Waco.

Like those latter two cases, a highly charismatic leader figure (in our case operating from a distance, shopping in Paris while his minions sweat in the 94°weather) has taken an inspirational idea: in one case Christianity, in the other democracy, and reinvented it so that mainstream Christians, or real democrats, can no longer recognize it. The followers are trapped. There is a siege mentality and information coming from outside is screened so that those trapped believe they will be killed if they try to leave. Women and children are being told that they are in danger if they fall into the hands of the government, and to distrust the medics and NGOs waiting to help them. There are outraged pronouncements that they're not in fact using the children as human shields, but that the parents brought them willingly to "entertain and thrill" them. There is mounting paranoia coupled with delusions of grandeur, so that the little red kingdom feels it has the right to summon the United Nations, just like any other sovereign state. The reporters in Rajprasong who are attached to the red community are as susceptible to this variant of the Stockholm syndrome as anyone else.

The international press must separate out the very real problems that the rural areas of Thailand face, which will take decades to fix, from the fact that a mob is rampaging through Bangkok, burning, looting, and firing grenades, threatening in the name of democracy to destroy what democracy yet remains in this country.

But this bad reporting is not their fault. It is our fault for not providing the facts in bite-sized pieces, in the right language, at the right time.

Posted by Somtow Sucharitkul (S.P. Somtow)

Somtow is brilliant here in detailing the "perception" gap.

[thailandfaq]

quote Lanna rebirth "That is not true. The current government was formed by a coalition of MP's each of whom was democratically elected. "

How can it be a democratic election when the original party for the redshirts was forbidden and disbanded.

Even the fachist Nazi national front in England is allowed to run for elections.

This is the meaning of democracy.

Every line of thought should have its chance - be it for better or worse.

This is democracy

Free speech is another thing

The current gov has banned lots of websites with political criticism against them.

This is not a democracy because of internet and news censorship, and the arrest and imprisonment of people for simply expressing their opinions..

There are other things too but i think the above points are enough and prove that the current gov is not democratic.

[lannarebirth]

I tuned into BBC for a change, usually watching Thai news on various channels (to get different viewpoints or have a good laugh with ASTV). Gosh, BBC is so beyond it, even though their reporters are in the middle of it.

The farang interview partners they drag along are worse than some posters on Thaivisa. The tragedy is that half of the world watches this crap and believes it.

BBC should switch to reporting from volcanic eruptions and space shuttle launches only... can't do anything wrong with those subjects.

I called my dad in the states tonight to wish him a happy birthday. He was quite apprehensive about the state of things in Thailand and from watching US news channels was under the impressiom that the current PM was not currently elected and if he were it really didn't matter because the Army was now running the government and indiscriminately killing poor farmers. He said Thaksin was portrayed as the true government, in exile. It took me 20 minutes to disabuse him of all the propaganda he'd been fed by the "mainstream media". The malignant pustule Amsterdam seems to be good at his work.

are you being serious?

with this is how your dad saw it?

or are you just trying to make a point about the international media?

and maybe its you thats been taken in with all the local media propaganda???

because you cannot argue the local media is controlled by the goverment, can you?

and from what i see from this mr amsterdam on the al jazeera interview,,he did alright, he mangered to get his "points" across but still looked like he avoided some hard hitting questions,,but i dunno if its his work thats managing to control any international media output????

No, I'm being honest as I don't watch television at all and only see the occasional YouTube clip. I'm not a consumer of mass media, I'm a seeker of truth. It's a lot of work.

[deepskyfreak]

You are all entitled to you views but really people, the city is burning and empty of all business.

The government killed over a dozn people in the temple-women and children.

It is going to get worse.

You were calling for war?

Well now you have it and the city is being destroyed.

The army should have NEVER moved on the people like this.

It was stupid.

You like the results so far?

Wait until it burns for weeks.

Call in the UN.

To do what?? Send 5000 Indian, Nigerian and Ukrainian soldiers with their either lazy or corrupted commanders to patrol the streets of BKK? LOL

The troops would love it... Soi Cowboy and Patpong and off-days in Pattaya. Get real.

[robert1001]

quote Lanna rebirth "That is not true. The current government was formed by a coalition of MP's each of whom was democratically elected. "

How can it be a democratic election when the original party for the redshirts was forbidden and disbanded.

Even the fachist Nazi national front in England is allowed to run for elections.

This is the meaning of democracy.

Every line of thought should have its chance - be it for better or worse.

This is democracy

Free speech is another thing

The current gov has banned lots of websites with political criticism against them.

This is not a democracy because of internet and news censorship, and the arrest and imprisonment of people for simply expressing their opinions..

There are other things too but i think the above points are enough and prove that the current gov is not democratic.

Do not waste your time talking to the anti Reds.

This group here is never going to make sense or change.

They called for the attack and now are still calling for killing.

All Bangkok can burn down and they will still be saying the attack was a good idea.

[HaPyro721]

To all the Red shirt people out there, Why did they have to burn down my aunt Restaurant. What did she ever do to you. All you did was cause her problems and made her lose money.

[ronthai]

My evening tonight ... if you want to know (Pattaya)

After many hours TEEVEE (NOT TV) and was half informed the curfew would also come to Pattaya, I went to my CONDO bar before 18.00 O'cloclk.

Sorry I am NOT eng or AM so no pm or am.

I notidec on TV (ThaiVisa) someone said curfew in pattaya, could not get confirmation with pattayaone or pattayapeople.

Around 20.30 in the condo bars a police came and said Pattaya close. No Walking street no Gay area no beach road and after even 7-11 had to close in Pattaya.

OK I am drunk just because my condo have many bar on the 1-first or 0-floor, but is inside. OK lites off but drink.

you sober people not care and also I not care, since I am going to Phillippennes in 4 weeks and bye bye ThaiShit. Has nothing to do with red/yellow just enough aft6er 23 years

Call me Ronnie

[lannarebirth]

You are all entitled to you views but really people, the city is burning and empty of all business.

The government killed over a dozn people in the temple-women and children.

It is going to get worse.

You were calling for war?

Well now you have it and the city is being destroyed.

The army should have NEVER moved on the people like this.

It was stupid.

You like the results so far?

Wait until it burns for weeks.

Call in the UN.

The only other person I've seen calling for the UN is the guy who is signing your checks, Amsterdam or Thaksin. The UN is not coming for 2 reasons. 1) It is a conflict that is internal to a sovereign nation, and 2) only one of the parties is legitimate (the govt, if you were wondering).