Frozen Uk Government Pensions

[MB1]

You keep on and on and on about how unfair it is and how "they have paid in"......right?

Well lets look at it again shall we?

Firstly, you get what you contributed to, at a level commensurate with the level one gets out on retirement...in as much as you (and everyone else that has, or will reach the State Pension Age) will get a basic State pension, which is (for single person) £97.65 per week as of April 6th 2010. This can be increased by various means, whatever they might be...to somewhere around the £110 mark, or thereabouts. You contributed, and thats what you get. No more, but certainly no less. And that, fella, is where your journey ends, contribution wise.

My next door-but one neighbour, however STILL contributes, even though he recieves his OAP (and, of course whatever other pensions and investments he has) He owns a car, and has just renewed his Vehicle Tax, at a cost of £ 205.00 for the year, and therefore made a direct contribution to the government pot ......where's your Vehicle Tax contribution?????

He filled his car up the other day and it came to £70+. Goodness knows how much of that £70 went in excise duty and VAT, paid direct to government funds..... wheres your contributions????

You really do talk <deleted>.

If your neighbour is" still contributing after receiving his pension" you are full of sh!te.

Enough anyway. I don't NEED the pension, I have myself covered.BUT,. I am entitled so I will take what I am allowed to take from the government. Should they <deleted> me on "residency" rest assured I will take some tax advantage back from them to balance my books.

IMO it's the like of Penkoprod who is one of the ones who talks sense on this thread and others similar he's participated in, it's the crusaders who start the insults because IMO they can't handle the fact that they have lost in the courts but are still banging their bin lids and crying it's not fair...BOO HOO...

Then you go on to say you'll take a tax advantage to balance your books, do you mean cook em and fiddle the tax man, it's that sort of attitude that has enraged many UK residents, me included, on visits to Thailand I've met many people who claim benifits of some sort or people who are on the fiddle but when it come down to it they don't give a flying duck and don't really care about the country they come from, all they want to do is to claim as much as possible from the UK and use it to fund a lifestyle abroad....Is that fair...?

By the way cardholder as to your if they <deleted>*k you on residency, well you hold the cards there and only yourself can <deleted> your residency up yourself if you don't follow the rules laid down by laws

of the UK.

Edited July 7, 2010 by MB1

[Penkoprod]

Truth hurts, huh, fella?

truth ?

Mai khao Jai.

"None so blind as those that will not see" is what springs to mind

You have a BIG opportunity, here, and the same opportunity i have offered others on here

SHOW ME WHERE MY POST is either "full of sh!te" or "talking <deleted>" as you so eloquently put it....or even not true. Prove me wrong, in that pensioners in UK are somehow "tax exempt" as you infer they are

Thats all you have to do, sweetheart.......sh!t or get off the pot !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We've had the "yaboo sucks ner ner ner" tantrum post from you just before.

Let's see what you can do

Penkoprod

[imjustagirl]

so does anyone know how two countries come to a reciprocal agreement? What criteria are needed? Would it mean that Thailand would have to pay expat pensions to uk citizens and the uk would pay the Thai pension to the Thai residents of the UK??? Just curious how a country gets confirmed on the 'list of acceptable retirement locations'

I understand the topic, and seems to me that if mr smith and mr jones work the same job with the same income for the same amount of time, making identical contributions then both should receive identical pensions...the whole point of the pension deductions is to receive the pension and so all who made it should receive the same pension. I read somewhere this is being taken to the court of human rights, i hope so...my mother is retired here and it doesnt seem fair that after 30 years of hard work in the nhs that her state pension is not judged on her contribution to the pot but on where she lives....you would think that the government (and the people) would actually be pleased and encourage retirement abroad as there is a reduced drain on the nhs, shorter waiting lists, more doctors time, less free repeat prescriptions and more housing available when they retire to well deserved rest and warmer climes.

[chiang mai]

so does anyone know how two countries come to a reciprocal agreement? What criteria are needed? Would it mean that Thailand would have to pay expat pensions to uk citizens and the uk would pay the Thai pension to the Thai residents of the UK??? Just curious how a country gets confirmed on the 'list of acceptable retirement locations'

I understand the topic, and seems to me that if mr smith and mr jones work the same job with the same income for the same amount of time, making identical contributions then both should receive identical pensions...the whole point of the pension deductions is to receive the pension and so all who made it should receive the same pension. I read somewhere this is being taken to the court of human rights, i hope so...my mother is retired here and it doesnt seem fair that after 30 years of hard work in the nhs that her state pension is not judged on her contribution to the pot but on where she lives....you would think that the government (and the people) would actually be pleased and encourage retirement abroad as there is a reduced drain on the nhs, shorter waiting lists, more doctors time, less free repeat prescriptions and more housing available when they retire to well deserved rest and warmer climes.

I'm trying to understand that point also and have emailed the UK Pension Service with the question, whether or not I'll get a sensible answer remains to be seen but if I do, I'll post it here.

[imjustagirl]

I dont know if this has been said before but just saw this on a quick search....

Even if you are only visiting for a day or two, you should file a claim with DWP to receive your uprating. The current rules (which keep changing) state that a claim must be received within a month of your arrival in the UK, or other qualifying country. In our experience it is safer to tell them before your visit.

Here is the latest advice from the pension service. as you can see, they are less formal in their approachthan they used to be.

Thank you for contacting the International Pension Centre with your email dated 24 March 2010.

There is now no need to complete forms, you can apply be e-mail and we will call you back or telephone us directly.

You can apply for an increased rate of benefit whenever you are in the United Kingdom (UK). We will need to know:

· your full name

· the date you are arriving and the date you are leaving

· your nationality

· an address and telephone number where you will be staying during your visit.

We cannot take this information any earlier than 4 weeks before you arrive in the UK. You must tell us about your visit within 28 days of your arrival in the UK if you do not do so before your arrival.

If you give us this information by e-mail within the time limits, we will contact you by telephone within the next 5 working days to confirm the details you have provided. For the security and protection of your personal details we will also need to verify your identity before further action can be taken and any changes implemented.

If this is not convenient you can call us on +44 191 218 7777 between the hours of 8am and 8pm (United Kingdom time).

Yours sincerely

Ken

+44 191 218 7777

International Pension Centre

Tyneview Park

Whitley Road

Benton

Newcastle upon Tyne

NE98 1BA

Email - [email protected]

The only problem here is that Ken does not mention that you can get the upgrade while travelling in uprated European countries and in some of the uprated non-European countries. I think most would, so if yours has not been increased for a long time a visit to the phillipines for a bit maybe or a trip back home definitely would improve your finances by the looks of things.

[Penkoprod]

so does anyone know how two countries come to a reciprocal agreement? What criteria are needed? Would it mean that Thailand would have to pay expat pensions to uk citizens and the uk would pay the Thai pension to the Thai residents of the UK??? Just curious how a country gets confirmed on the 'list of acceptable retirement locations'

I understand the topic, and seems to me that if mr smith and mr jones work the same job with the same income for the same amount of time, making identical contributions then both should receive identical pensions...the whole point of the pension deductions is to receive the pension and so all who made it should receive the same pension. I read somewhere this is being taken to the court of human rights, i hope so...my mother is retired here and it doesnt seem fair that after 30 years of hard work in the nhs that her state pension is not judged on her contribution to the pot but on where she lives....you would think that the government (and the people) would actually be pleased and encourage retirement abroad as there is a reduced drain on the nhs, shorter waiting lists, more doctors time, less free repeat prescriptions and more housing available when they retire to well deserved rest and warmer climes.

While i cant help much on the subject of the reciprocal agreement question (i discounted the whole idea when i found out Thailand doesnt have one with UK, and is now never likely to have one) what i CAN help you out with is this European Court of Human Rights issue you mention. Even at the risk of sounding like a broken record myself, lol !!!!

This case has, not only been heard in it, but thrown out by it, on an 11 to 1 majority. It then went to the final FINAL FINAL hearing of the appeals court of the ECHR in early September 2009 where it, again was thrown out (majority unkown by me) The verdict being given on 16th March this year. That was the "last chance saloon" and now the doors are bolted shut, and the windows boarded up to any discussion of UK expat pensioners State Pension increases., and are more interested in appeasing and protecting terrorists, it would seem .....LINK

But PLEASE, try not to go on about the unfairness of the situation. For one thing, its been done to death, and, for another, pales into relative insignificance, compared to other injustices and unfairness in all our daily lives. I wont list them, but i think you get the picture?

Your other post, however is at least a change from the tired old thinking of previous postings on the subject.

BUT !!!! (there's always a "but" huh?) somewhere in the back of my mind is either something i read, or heard on TV, that you ONLY get any increases for the time you are in UK, and revert back to previous levels when you leave again. It could, of course, be my sceptical nature and deep mistrust of all things "government" i tend to look at things like this from all angles and facets.

For instance, the phrase taken from very early on in this email you have pasted here:

"You can apply for an increased rate of benefit whenever you are in the United Kingdom (UK)"

Apart from the first part about applying (i couldapply to be pope, but that dont mean i will be ) its the second part of it that leads me to believe my theory is confirmed...."whenever you are in the United Kingdom (UK)"

There could well be a period of time to be served in order to become "ordinarily resident" in UK, in order to for these increases to "stick" But i very much doubt it, and will leave it for others to clarify/research... i just dont know, tbh

Penkoprod

[prakhonchai nick]

Penkoprod needs to bear in mind that in the UK, you pay general tax via income tax and VAT and NI contributions, They are SEPARATE,

It is the NI contributions that pay for the pension.

Anyone that has a full NI contribution record is entitled to the full state pension, and SHOULD have this uprated wherever he lives.

It matters not that if he retires to Thailand, he is not contributing to the general tax fund via VAT, road tax etc etc. In all likliehood there is a personal pension which is taxed.

Bear mind also that by not being in the UK, we are not a drain on the health service, we do not get free bus passes, and we free up accommodation for the immigrants who will be claiming child benefit and child tax credits for their kids who have never been to the UK.. Plus housing benefit, unemployment benefit etc etc.

Think again PENKOPROD

[MB1]

Penkoprod needs to bear in mind that in the UK, you pay general tax via income tax and VAT and NI contributions, They are SEPARATE,

It is the NI contributions that pay for the pension.

Anyone that has a full NI contribution record is entitled to the full state pension, and SHOULD have this uprated wherever he lives.

It matters not that if he retires to Thailand, he is not contributing to the general tax fund via VAT, road tax etc etc. In all likliehood there is a personal pension which is taxed.

Bear mind also that by not being in the UK, we are not a drain on the health service, we do not get free bus passes, and we free up accommodation for the immigrants who will be claiming child benefit and child tax credits for their kids who have never been to the UK.. Plus housing benefit, unemployment benefit etc etc.

Think again PENKOPROD

NI pays for "entitlement" to certain social security benefits, state pension being one of these, but the money that actually pays for the state pension is not in a bottomless pot saved up from NI contributions, money that pays for todays state pensions comes from taxation.

People who are working and who's income is high enough to pay tax contribute towards the expense.

No state pension fund exists, it's the money from taxation that pays a pensioners payment, this simply means that those who are pensioners now have their pensions paid by people who are working now.

When I reach pensionable age and retire I may get my state pension paid by people who are then working but I have a sneaky feeling that in years to come a state pension may be means tested.

A lot of people/pensioners misunderstand what pays the state pension and instead think that their NI contributions is a savings plan for state pension.

So maybe you need to think again and get your facts right.

By the way, paying NI contributions has never given an automatic right to benifits, the agreement between you and the state is that payment of contributions gives you an entitlement to certain benefits, and one condition is that some state pension upratings are not payable abroad, and this comes from 1955 legislation.

HTH.

Edited July 8, 2010 by MB1

[cardholder]

NI pays for "entitlement" to certain social security benefits, state pension being one of these, but the money that actually pays for the state pension is not in a pot saved up from NI contributions, money that pays for todays state pensions comes from taxation.

People who are working and who's income is high enough to pay tax contribute towards the expense.

No state pension fund exists, it's the money from taxation that pays a pensioners payment, this simply means that those who are pensioners now have their pensions paid by people who are working now.

When I reach pensionable age and retire I may get my state pension paid by people who are then working but I have a sneaky feeling that in years to come a state pension may be means tested.

A lot of people/pensioners misunderstand what pays the state pension and instead think that their NI contributions is a savings plan for state pension.

So maybe you need to think again and get your facts right.

By the way, paying NI contributions has never given an automatic right to benifits, the agreement between you and the state is that payment of contributions gives you an entitlement to certain benefits, and one condition is that some state pension upratings are not payable abroad, and this comes from 1955 legislation.

HTH.

WHERE the pension is paid from is irrelevant to this topic.

Paying NI DOES give an automatic right to benefits because the Pensions Service says it does in their correspondence and website, That this might change change in the future is subjective and equally irrelevant to this thread.

[MB1]

NI pays for "entitlement" to certain social security benefits, state pension being one of these, but the money that actually pays for the state pension is not in a pot saved up from NI contributions, money that pays for todays state pensions comes from taxation.

People who are working and who's income is high enough to pay tax contribute towards the expense.

No state pension fund exists, it's the money from taxation that pays a pensioners payment, this simply means that those who are pensioners now have their pensions paid by people who are working now.

When I reach pensionable age and retire I may get my state pension paid by people who are then working but I have a sneaky feeling that in years to come a state pension may be means tested.

A lot of people/pensioners misunderstand what pays the state pension and instead think that their NI contributions is a savings plan for state pension.

So maybe you need to think again and get your facts right.

By the way, paying NI contributions has never given an automatic right to benifits, the agreement between you and the state is that payment of contributions gives you an entitlement to certain benefits, and one condition is that some state pension upratings are not payable abroad, and this comes from 1955 legislation.

HTH.

WHERE the pension is paid from is irrelevant to this topic.

Paying NI DOES give an automatic right to benefits because the Pensions Service says it does in their correspondence and website, That this might change change in the future is subjective and equally irrelevant to this thread.

It became relevant when a poster said that the State Pension was paid from NI contributions, when postings are made and they are wrong then expect to be challenged and put right, thats a rule of debate.

As to your saying NI gives an automatic right to benefits, try reading up in the House of Commons library and you'll find a piece from a Westminster Hall debate in 2001, you'll also find a very interesting piece on reciprocal agreements which outlines reasons as to why the reciprocal agreements came about, it go's into the court cases and also explains why governments past and present have no plans to change legislation thats in place now.

Oh and cardholder, I noticed you never replied when I asked in a previous post "Is That Fair".

Cherry picking hey.

Just as a note,"Including me):>0 when entering into a serious debate it always helps if you have knowledge of the subject your participating in, otherwise it's wise do do some research on the subject before engaging typing finger before brain and shouting out it's not fair and posting inaccuracies.

Just a thought hey.

By the way I'm not having a go at pensioners I'm just trying to point out that certain people think that they should be entitled to increases in State Pensions whilst living abroad but government legislation from years gone by says no unless you live in a country where legislation says you are.

The courts agree with the Government and the Government have no plans to change current legislation.

You can bang your drums and bin lids from the highest trees whilst shouting until your blue in the face but with the new government in place who have plans for massive spending cuts, don't expect them to change current legislation either.

Edited July 8, 2010 by MB1

[Nignoy]

back again, still dont see what the discussion is about!!you pay your dues, reach 65 ,get your pension, stay in uk you get raises and allowances,move to a non reciprocal country , you just keep a pension without raises, is it fair ??NO it is not, canwe change it???no we cant!! As far as transam burbling on about the ghurkha,s I served with them,what the govt tried to do to them was not fair but you must agree life isnt fair, so we have to live with it :jap:

[Penkoprod]

Penkoprod needs to bear in mind that in the UK, you pay general tax via income tax and VAT and NI contributions, They are SEPARATE,

It is the NI contributions that pay for the pension.

Anyone that has a full NI contribution record is entitled to the full state pension, and SHOULD have this uprated wherever he lives.

And thats (almost) EXACTLY what i have been saying from near the very start of this thread. If there were an anti plagiarism rule on the forum, you would have broken it.

But, all the same.......THANK YOU for agreeing with me !!!!

The one thing i didnt say, and will take issue with, is the last few words. To put it bluntly, it doesnt matter whether i think it should be uprated. It doesnt even matter what you, or any of the fellow protagonists on both sides of the fence here think. Its upto the sixty plus million people whose lives are going to be affected by cuts to each and every government department that has either a direct, or indirect effect on their lives. And for the foreseeable future, too, might i add. The same people who have been left to sort out the mess WE help make, before we pissed off with our pots of gold that we ring-fenced from them getting a share of. The same ones that are being told the SPA will be going upto 70 years of age in stages, and earlier than planned.

Do you not see that when you go on your "not fair" crusade???

It matters not that if he retires to Thailand, he is not contributing to the general tax fund via VAT, road tax etc etc. In all likliehood there is a personal pension which is taxed.

Firstly, see above for what (or who) really matters, and who has the final say on this.......and it AINT anyone here, thats for sure !!!!!

Secondly, a personal, or occupational pension that the contributions to were tax excempt, perhaps? And, in any case, what do you want? A TOTALLY free ride to your personal Nirvana, <deleted>??????

Bear mind also that by not being in the UK, we are not a drain on the health service, we do not get free bus passes, and we free up accommodation for the immigrants who will be claiming child benefit and child tax credits for their kids who have never been to the UK.. Plus housing benefit, unemployment benefit etc etc.

And whats this about a strain on the NHS. Returning expats would be at the back of the queue for anything but the minimum they can offer, for one thing. And, dont forget they will offset that by counting the increased tax revenue they will get. The Whitehall mandarinswill be rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect. A few of the more nasty one will run to the bogs and have a Barclays at the thought !!!!!! There's even talk of these free bus pases being means tested. And as for getting any sort of accomodation off them..........phhht !!!! Dream on !!!!!!!

Think again PENKOPROD

Rather than me thinking again, dont you think it might be a nice idea for you to START??????

Penkoprod

[Penkoprod]

Ok, cardholder, it looks like you decided to get off the pot for whatever reason, so heres the deal: You said, earlier on in the thread about you "being a 50 year old man, with a 15 year plan" right? Well, i can add (just) a few years onto the age, but MY plan is a twenty five year one. And one thats in the final furlong, and i have months rather than years to make to "leap of faith" so to speak, and my new life begins. During those nearly 25 years, i have researched and gained knowledge on ( i HOPE) every aspect of whats going to be involved. And not just my State Pension, either, btw....everything from whats the best private pension scheme, how much is my occupational pension going to be, how can i ship out some personal effects without getting gouged by Thai Customs, best interest rates and places to leave some of my savings as a hedge against the falling Pound, and inflation, visa regs etc, etc. Apart from my own forragings made before the age when info on the subject became readily and easily availible, some of what i have learned during those 25 years has come from the sharing of knowledge on this and other boards like it (and some i joined that "weren't suitable for family viewing" shall we say) Some of the info was unpalatable, didnt meet my expectaions, and threw me a curveball, so to speak. But it didnt make me feel any less grateful for getting the info, or even made me beligerent to those sharing that knowledge. You and a few others on here seem, not only unwilling to accept the facts presented, by me and others, but beligerent to those trying to inform you...what with the insults, badgerings, hectoring, stalking of me in other threads, point scoring when correcting typos, etc, etc Well, guess what? That only serves to make me more determined to dig my heels in !!!! JUST LIKE the British government and the taxpayers of the UK who are left behind to clear up, and pay the bill for the mess that OUR generation have left them saddled with !!!!!! Let's, at least, be honest about it. Me? I'll just spit in peoples eyes and carry on posting for anyone interested. What i am saying is that most, if not everything i have said on the subject has been a statement of fact. INDISPUTABLE fact....has it not? If you cant see that, then there's not a lot more i am prepared to do, tbh. Ignorance seems to some peoples forte in life...are you saying its yours????? You're certainly SHOWING it, that's for sure, as far as i'm concerned. Think about it, eh? Penkoprod

[prakhonchai nick]

Well Penkoprod - having read your diatribe, I can see that you fully support the UK governments (current and all previous) stand NOT to uprate pensions for some 500,000 British citizens living in specific locations overseas. That is your choice.

But most British citizens affected by this ruling feel hard done by and this is exacerbated by the billions of pounds that are handed out to immigrants, and all the benefit claimants who just exploit the system, without in many cases contributes anything upfront. And in most cases the government just write off the payments which would not only have paid pension increases for all, but would have allowed those currently in their 80's and more to receive back-pay and live out their remaining years with a few additional benefits.

I'm sad for you that you have nothing more worthwhile to spend your time on than criticise most other posters who would like to see a fairer distribution of taxpayers money - directed towards those who have contributed the most. But it will never happen!

[cardholder]

Oh and cardholder, I noticed you never replied when I asked in a previous post "Is That Fair".

Cherry picking hey.

Ah ! My myopic friend. I now understand your tunnel-visioned view of things.

Post #139 presumably escaped your attention:-

Question 1 - No one says the Govt owes anyone a living. This is about fairness for ALL people who have 'paid in' to the system (Nat Ins system) and qualify for a pension payment. It is about equitable treatment of ALL who are entitled - and NOT being disadvantaged by where they choose to live.

question 2: NOT Fair - see answer to Q1, they have 'paid in' should get equal treatment.

Cherry-picking what we read ?

Edited July 9, 2010 by cardholder

[cardholder]

Well Penkoprod - having read your diatribe, I can see that you fully support the UK governments (current and all previous) stand NOT to uprate pensions for some 500,000 British citizens living in specific locations overseas. That is your choice.

But most British citizens affected by this ruling feel hard done by and this is exacerbated by the billions of pounds that are handed out to immigrants, and all the benefit claimants who just exploit the system, without in many cases contributes anything upfront. And in most cases the government just write off the payments which would not only have paid pension increases for all, but would have allowed those currently in their 80's and more to receive back-pay and live out their remaining years with a few additional benefits.

I'm sad for you that you have nothing more worthwhile to spend your time on than criticise most other posters who would like to see a fairer distribution of taxpayers money - directed towards those who have contributed the most. But it will never happen!

Good post.

I read a thing in UK on elderly getting robbed by bogus WaterBoard men at the door. Somebody wrote in a newspaper forum, serves them right, they've been told about strangers at the door, no sympathy. Of course l replied with a broadside, why, cos my mother was a Exec. in the civil service but when she was in her 80's became a different person, could not deal with anything, however minor. My point, Penk in my book is the same as the newspaper article writer. has horse blinkers, understands nothing about human nature, or the difference between right and wrong. Make a good barrister for a rapist or killer though where wrong doesn't matter.

Well said.

"Wrong" always does matter though.

Re: Frozen Pensions, the fact that all doors are closed is not the issue. Right and wrong, and fairness, is what this thread is about.

I had always been taught that anything that discriminates is unfair. I have seen nothing to change my mind.

[MB1]

Oh and cardholder, I noticed you never replied when I asked in a previous post "Is That Fair".

Cherry picking hey.

Ah ! My myopic friend. I now understand your tunnel-visioned view of things.

Post #139 presumably escaped your attention:-

Question 1 - No one says the Govt owes anyone a living. This is about fairness for ALL people who have 'paid in' to the system (Nat Ins system) and qualify for a pension payment. It is about equitable treatment of ALL who are entitled - and NOT being disadvantaged by where they choose to live.

question 2: NOT Fair - see answer to Q1, they have 'paid in' should get equal treatment.

Cherry-picking what we read ?

You really need to get to specsavers, I only joined the thread/topic at post 157 page 6 and never quoted or questioned your post 139, I quoted your post 151 page 7 in my post 167 page 7 and then asked "Is That Fair" when I replied to your post saying you'd balance your books through a tax advantage if you had a problem with residency..

By the way , take into account that the post numbers are all over the place and not sequential due to a problem with the system.

Oh and as for being myopic, sorry old boy but thats some of the people/expats on this thread who never had the foresight to learn the rules and plan their futures properly and expected the government of the UK to give them the same pension rights as those who live in the UK and contribute directly towards the British economy.

Maybe those who have planned and have a vision for the future, and know how the rules of pensions abroad could affect them could be considered hyperopic.?.

Re: Frozen Pensions, the fact that all doors are closed is not the issue. Right and wrong, and fairness, is what this thread is about.

Put your money where your mouth is then and try and take the government back to court and prove their wrong.

Enjoy your crusade.

Edited July 9, 2010 by MB1

[MB1]

Well Penkoprod - having read your diatribe, I can see that you fully support the UK governments (current and all previous) stand NOT to uprate pensions for some 500,000 British citizens living in specific locations overseas. That is your choice.

But most British citizens affected by this ruling feel hard done by and this is exacerbated by the billions of pounds that are handed out to immigrants, and all the benefit claimants who just exploit the system, without in many cases contributes anything upfront. And in most cases the government just write off the payments which would not only have paid pension increases for all, but would have allowed those currently in their 80's and more to receive back-pay and live out their remaining years with a few additional benefits.

I'm sad for you that you have nothing more worthwhile to spend your time on than criticise most other posters who would like to see a fairer distribution of taxpayers money - directed towards those who have contributed the most. But it will never happen!

Please please, stop bringing immigrants and benefit spongers into the topic, reciprocal agreements have been in place since 1948, so nothing to do with immigrants no matter how pensioners may feel hard done by .

Other posters might like to see a fairer distribution of taxpayers money but as a taxpayer who still lives and works in the UK I for one know and realise what the cost would be to back pay and give all pensioners the same rights no matter where they live in the world.

No government for many years have had any plans to change legislation which is backed by the courts, and continuing restraints on spending in the UK by the Government is not going to change IMO.

The UK has big problems and has massive public spending cuts planned so don't think the government have plans to unfreeze frozen pensions.

An estimate for the year 2008-2009 that related to additional extra costs for the of uprating of pensions for those living in frozen rate countries was over 1 BILLION pounds and that figure did not include paying any arrears, if arrears were to be paid it would be over 3 billion pounds.

No one can rightfully criticize the goverment past and present over this pensions debate because those who have chosen to live abroad could have known the rules or easily have found out before deciding to live abroad.

Edited July 9, 2010 by MB1

[cardholder]

Put your money where your mouth is then and try and take the government back to court and prove their wrong.

Enjoy your crusade.

You really do not read what is written, do you.

What part of "the door is firmly closed" did you fail to understand. I fully accept this and have no intention of embarking on a crusade.

Equally, no one will ever convince me that the decision was fair.

Now, you accused me of not answering a question (that I had answered) and you failed to understand that I had said the case was closed.

Please think more carefully before (figuratively) opening your mouth next time.

Edited July 9, 2010 by cardholder

[MB1]

Now, you accused me of not answering a question (that I had answered) and you failed to understand that I had said the case was closed.

Please think more carefully before (figuratively) opening your mouth next time.

Now, you accused me of not answering a question (that I had answered) and you failed to understand that I had said the case was closed.

Please think more carefully before (figuratively) opening your mouth next time.

@Cardholder...

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((YAWN))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

What part are you having difficulty in understanding, I did'nt ask you a question until post 167, page 7, your post 139 was not answering me or my question at all, it was just a post you made before I had even joined the thread/topic and was not aimed at me and neither was it answering the question I asked you in post 167.DOH...

You STILL do not UNDERSTAND what the topic is about. Beggars belief.

@Transam....

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It's in the thread/topic title.....

Frozen Uk Pensions Equality for Ex-pats in Thailand and elsewher

Which allows anyone to reply if on topic whether their in agreement with the OP or not, or do you think that the only people who are allowed to reply to the thread are those who think it's unfair.

Get to the meeting in August and please take cardholder with you, please except this cyber 200baht as I'd like to buy you both a cyber cup of horlicks or hot drinking chocolate before you both go back to your nursing homes.

I'd love to be there but can't make it, too busy saving up to be able to retire without relying on the Government unfreezing the state pension..

Have a nice day.

Edited July 9, 2010 by MB1

[cardholder]

Get to the meeting in August and please take cardholder with you, please except this cyber 200baht as I'd like to buy you both a cyber cup of horlicks or hot drinking chocolate before you both go back to your nursing homes.

I'd love to be there but can't make it, too busy saving up to be able to retire without relying on the Government unfreezing the state pension..

Have a nice day.

Chok Dee MB1- Cyber cash graciously accepted :jap:

[Penkoprod]

Well Penkoprod - having read your diatribe, I can see that you fully support the UK governments (current and all previous) stand NOT to uprate pensions for some 500,000 British citizens living in specific locations overseas. That is your choice.

But most British citizens affected by this ruling feel hard done by and this is exacerbated by the billions of pounds that are handed out to immigrants, and all the benefit claimants who just exploit the system, without in many cases contributes anything upfront. And in most cases the government just write off the payments which would not only have paid pension increases for all, but would have allowed those currently in their 80's and more to receive back-pay and live out their remaining years with a few additional benefits.

I'm sad for you that you have nothing more worthwhile to spend your time on than criticise most other posters who would like to see a fairer distribution of taxpayers money - directed towards those who have contributed the most. But it will never happen!

I hope you feel better for having got that phlegm off your chest

I wont even bother with trying to repudiate what "you see" because i just remembered an adage on a signature from someone on the net:

"One should never argue with idiots because they will just drag you down to their level....then beat you with experience"

I'll just keep on repeating, and sharing the info i have collected over many years. And neither you, or any sabre rattling, cheerleading, hectoring, hypocritical "false patriots" will stop me doing so.

And that info is:

You (and anyone else retired in Thailand) or me (and anyone else with a wish/plan to do so) does NOT qualify for, HAVE qualified in the past, or, indeed are likely to qualify in the foreseeable future, for increases to the State Pension.... FACT !!!!

Both the rules and history of the UK State Pension Scheme state so....FACT !!!!

In order to fashion a change in the rules and laws, one would think the 1st port of call would be the ones making them. Now here's where it starts to go tits up. They (the rule/lawmakers) dont like you/us!!! (<------ my opinion having spent time and effort researching for when its ME that makes the move and based on facts found)

You physically took (and i will soon) yourself out from their control and from under their influence, and they resent you for that ( the literal translation of "expatriate is "no longer part of the Fatherland). Do you agree? And its not just a recent thing, either. Ever since a modern day pension scheme has been in place (1905) they have said no one outside the UK would get ANY pension.

The National Insurance Act of 1948 specifically states that, while a State Pension would NOW be paid to citizens abroad, there would be no provision for any increases paid to people outside of UK and a list of countries that had recipricol agreements with UK.........FACT !!!!!!

So, if its unfair now it was back then..........do you agree?

So you think to go to the next one down in the food chain, and see what they offer. Mrs anf Mrs Joe and Jane Public.

Guess what.........they hate your/our guts too !!!! For, not only have you (and soon to be me) pissed off and left THEM to sort out a mess of everyones making, but you took a "pot of gold" away with you. And held it close you your chest in a protective manner, and a maniacal laugh, screaming "mine, all mine ........MUUUUUUAHAHAHA!!!!. In other words, you (we will) ringfenced it and took it "out of the control of the Fatherland (remember that?) This government (and previous ones, just top show there is no discrimination) let the "great unwashed" ... THAT'S US, btw, foster a belief that you are (we will be) "expatriOTS". Now, break THAT down and you might get a clue as to why expat pensioners are fighting an uphill struggle. Let me do it for you:

ex= no longer and patriot is self explained. IE, you are "no longer a patriot" so what you think the British public see you as, huh? Dont think this is just ramblings. I have heard it myself many times over, when these court cases make it to national press. I have heard it in the pubs/clubs/shops/offices and factories.

And please get off this "unfair" deal you go on about, too. If its unfair now, it was unfair in 2002, 2003, 2005, 2007. Where were you when the case was brought to court all those times? Nowhere to be seen by the look of things. Yet soon after its final final hearing in 2009, and the Pound starts sinking so much that you see a point where your lifestyle slips a notch, so you think its OK to scream "foul" and hope the same people you pissed on are going to throw money at you, because YOU think its unfair that someone gets increases and you dont...........all of a sudden, of course.<------ thats THEIR opinion of the situation, and not mine

I've seen it, heard it and witnessed it. I would bet you havent.

You need to both know all the rules (so you can try to find a way round them)

But you also need to know both the strength of your opponents and how deep their resentment runs. And i dont say this lightly...it runs pretty deep. Far deeper than any petition is going to break down

^_____________^ That's my opinion

Penkoprod

Edited July 9, 2010 by Penkoprod

[MB1]

+1....... to above post of penk,but guess what the truth hurts some and they just can't face the facts, ahh well never mind, some things will never change until they go to the grave....GOM.....Grumpy Old Men...

500 cyber baht for you to go to the meeting in August and have a drink with the horlicks and hot chocolate crowd, only get yourself a few cyber beer and watch they don't batter you with their walking sticks....

[MAJIC]

Good luck....you are going to need it !!!!!Sorry to burst anyone's bubble, and i suppose its OK to have a rant and rave about it, but, ultimatly thats all this is, as it wont change a thing back in the UK. All groups like this will be seen as just another bunch of old farts, with too much time on their hands....begging for money to which they are not entitled to, by every rule and ruling thats been made on the subject, unfortunatly. Thats the reality of it Especially if you are going to be singing the same tired old songs that have been thrown out of every court the case has been presented in

You know the ones? The ballads of "i've paid my contributions all my working life, and now feel entitled to increases as of right" or "i still pay taxes on my pension" or how about "people in other countries get it, so why cant i?" All sound quite plausible, but, ultimatly flawed Dont get me wrong, here, i'm all for getting a fair share of the pot, but the pot is getting smaller and smaller, and expat pensioners are the last in line for any benefit to be paid out to them. Always have been, and always will be. I can certainly see nothing will change for the good in my lifetime.

How does that proverb/prayer go?..... God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference. I will just spend my time, making my plans around how not to get into a situation whereby i am relying on a meagre increase (manipulated to be the lower of the 2 inflation rates used in UK, btw!!!!) in my State Pension.

Penkoprod

By the sound of your could'nt care less rhetoric,you seem to be in the fortunate position of possibly not needing a UK Pension,or at least the annual increases. The UK Government and the EEC is undoubtedly discriminating against Ex Pats around the World,that can't be right can it?

Whats the logical difference of Expats living in Europe and some other Countries,where they can get the annual increases? at the final summing up they are still all non UK Residents.

Hence Discrimination!

[Penkoprod]

By the sound of your could'nt care less rhetoric,you seem to be in the fortunate position of possibly not needing a UK Pension,or at least the annual increases. The UK Government and the EEC is undoubtedly discriminating against Ex Pats around the World,that can't be right can it?

Whats the logical difference of Expats living in Europe and some other Countries,where they can get the annual increases? at the final summing up they are still all non UK Residents.

Hence Discrimination!

Why dont you read what you quoted from? As you assume a lot

But you are right in as much as i dont (wont) need any increases, and have always made my plans around seeing them as a bonus, if by some lottery winning odds the bankrupt country that i leave behind grants me them. And thats got NOTHING to do with "being fortunate" as you put it, but more the result of proper forward planning and sacrifices made over the years to achieve my goals. I wont put myself in a position whereby i have to say to my peers " i pissed off and left you to it, awful bad luck that you have to have most parts of your life affected by the big hole we all created, and not get your pension until you are 70. By the way old boy, i'm feeling the pinch, at the moment what with the Pound being in the crap. Let me have an increase. Its discrimination if you dont"

I know what they would tell me. The same as they have been telling expat pensioners in the past, either through the courts, or telling them to their faces. Clue..........second word is "off"

The whole tactics used by the expat pensioners from the get-go has been WRONG. I pointed that out, too. Thats all. If you want to stand any chance of getting it then the only way is to TAKE it, by violence if necassary. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

And that......is the bottom line.

Penkoprod

[MAJIC]

so does anyone know how two countries come to a reciprocal agreement? What criteria are needed? Would it mean that Thailand would have to pay expat pensions to uk citizens and the uk would pay the Thai pension to the Thai residents of the UK??? Just curious how a country gets confirmed on the 'list of acceptable retirement locations'

I understand the topic, and seems to me that if mr smith and mr jones work the same job with the same income for the same amount of time, making identical contributions then both should receive identical pensions...the whole point of the pension deductions is to receive the pension and so all who made it should receive the same pension. I read somewhere this is being taken to the court of human rights, i hope so...my mother is retired here and it doesnt seem fair that after 30 years of hard work in the nhs that her state pension is not judged on her contribution to the pot but on where she lives....you would think that the government (and the people) would actually be pleased and encourage retirement abroad as there is a reduced drain on the nhs, shorter waiting lists, more doctors time, less free repeat prescriptions and more housing available when they retire to well deserved rest and warmer climes.

Absolutely 100% correct and succinct.

Problem is there are those on this thread that dont believe in fighting Injustice,and find it easier to lie down and blindly accept it,then throw in a few old chestnut sayings by way of justification.

[MB1]

so does anyone know how two countries come to a reciprocal agreement? What criteria are needed? Would it mean that Thailand would have to pay expat pensions to uk citizens and the uk would pay the Thai pension to the Thai residents of the UK??? Just curious how a country gets confirmed on the 'list of acceptable retirement locations'

I understand the topic, and seems to me that if mr smith and mr jones work the same job with the same income for the same amount of time, making identical contributions then both should receive identical pensions...the whole point of the pension deductions is to receive the pension and so all who made it should receive the same pension. I read somewhere this is being taken to the court of human rights, i hope so...my mother is retired here and it doesnt seem fair that after 30 years of hard work in the nhs that her state pension is not judged on her contribution to the pot but on where she lives....you would think that the government (and the people) would actually be pleased and encourage retirement abroad as there is a reduced drain on the nhs, shorter waiting lists, more doctors time, less free repeat prescriptions and more housing available when they retire to well deserved rest and warmer climes.

Absolutely 100% correct and succinct.

Problem is there are those on this thread that dont believe in fighting Injustice,and find it easier to lie down and blindly accept it,then throw in a few old chestnut sayings by way of justification.

Not 100% correct at all, the post you replied to mentioned "pension deductions", national insurance contributions are not a pension deduction, NI contributions are paid to build up ones entitlement to certain social security benifits, state pension being one of the benifits you could be eligible for when you reach pensionable age..

I said in an earlier post that there is no such thing as a state pension fund, it's the taxpayers of today that pay for the state pension payments.

See post 194 page 7.

It would help if people taking part in a serious debate knew what they were talking about.

Also it's already been to the court of human rights and result was a lose again for the pensioners.

So you see the post is not 100% correct.

Edited July 9, 2010 by MB1

[MAJIC]

the comments about british fighting spirit and loyalty to their country, is really a bit old hat, and I think there are afew million veterans and exservicemen who will agree with me, many of us who have served and been injured and disabled through our services and then been abandoned by the country we cherished, who have to fight for every penny of our pensions and decent medical treatment, acountry that puts you on such long surgery waiting lists that many die before getting their operations,acountry where the lame and the lazy get treated better than the old folk,with right the australians say how do you know when a planeful of brits has landed, because 2 hours after the engines are turned off it is still whineing!the common cry is the immigrants are taking our jobs, maybe! but many are willing to work for the privilege to stay in england,everyone should get used to living in the present, the days of the Raj are gone, the great has gone out of britain now we are just a small poor island country living alongside other european poor countries with the same problems. Do I love my country of course I do, do I still call it home and sometimes miss it when I am away of course I do,does it owe me anything more than it can ever repay, but does it worry me nope my wife and I live our lives for us we saw england was going no where in the 90,s so we packed up and left like so many others did , we went where trade slills and knowledge were needed and made a new life , so if our brit pension goes up it goes up if it stays as it is who gives a fxxx :jap:

Well said !!!!!!!

Another healthy dose of reality :clap2:

Penkoprod

It would seem that you are getting pleasure from your negative comments to the OP's quest and enjoy comments from those with little or no interest in the subject, in fact it looks almost anti pensioner from your posts. Perhaps sitting in the UK, you are envious of those who are not. Just my feeling. Strange no response from you about J. Lumley's FUTILE quest as you seem to know everything about government documentation.

Perhaps the fighting spirit will become a thing of the past for SOME but because you've lost yours, please don't cast the rest that haven't in the same light..

Dont think my comments are negative, just truthful !! my father went to his grave fighting for better treatment for returned soldiers and their families ,he was a seniour official in the welfare branch of the combined British Legion , but today our green and pleasant land has turned into a grey land where grey people are trying to escape in their 1ooo,s to other countries and better themselves, sadly many wear rosecoloured glasses and dont do the maths first,after 4 or 5 years the glasses are gone and so is the thai dream when the money starts getting tight, Each person is responsible for their own future, and contrary to common opinion, the UK Govt does not owe ane one a living :jap:

No the UK Government does not owe anyone a living. But they do owe them a Pension,and after paying their NI contributions for 44 years a full Pension at that,which is what the OP intended to point out.

[Penkoprod]

No the UK Government does not owe anyone a living. But they do owe them a Pension,and after paying their NI contributions for 44 years a full Pension at that,which is what the OP intended to point out.

And that's PRECISELY what the OP ( and every man-Jack of us, for that matter) get at SPA (State Retirement Age)

Made up of various componants:

State Pension (the least ammount one is entitled to...currently £97.65 per week)

Payable additional Pension (in other words SERPS which ran from 1978 to 5 April 2002)

Graduated Pension ( the part of the NI contributions total paid between 1961 and 1979)

Any other payments ars based on different criteria. The Index Linked Increase is based on residency. Some are age related

People were aware of that fact before making a move ANYWHERE. The "problem" only stared affecting them when the Pound went down the shitter, and they got "the squeeky bum syndrome.

Penkoprod

[MB1]

No the UK Government does not owe anyone a living. But they do owe them a Pension,and after paying their NI contributions for 44 years a full Pension at that,which is what the OP intended to point out.

They get the pension they were entitled to when they reached pensionable age, so the government don't owe them a pension as it's being paid to them at the rate set by legislation, and if a pensioner decides to up sticks and move abroad and become an expat in a country with no reciprocal agreement then he/she receives the amount that is allowed to be paid by law and the pension is frozen.

It's as simple as that.

Edited July 9, 2010 by MB1