Thai Gay Themed Movie "rainbow Boys" Very Surprising

[Jingthing]

OK, I admit this is a bit of queer topic, even for the gay forum.

A Thai movie which is an adaptation of a well known coming out type novel written by a Mexican American! I bet not many of you have seen it.

Anyway, let me explain why I found the film a little bit surprising.

While I well realize that Thailand is not a paradise for everyday Thai gays the way the plight of gay youth in modern Thailand is depicted in the film is more like 1950's middle-America than I would think most foreigners feel is the current Thai reality. Yet the Thai filmmakers felt inspired to make this movie, so they must have felt it was very relevant to Thai audiences indeed.

The most shocking aspect, one main character is very effeminate and very obvious. Well this character is badly bullied everyday at school, and sometimes badly beaten. Just for being openly gay.

Would that be typical in a Thai late teenage school? In the film, they are in Bangkok.

Another butch character has a drunkard Daddy who calls him khatoey all the time as a mean insult because he had caught him playing with a buddy when he was 10 years old. This depicts a lower class family. Would that kind of nasty homophobia be typical in such a Thai family?

There are also general issues of coming out to parents, where typical parents are not accepting right away, which I feel are more or less universal.

Anyway, again, there must be some core of reality to this if Thai filmmakers thought the story was believable to be translated into a Thai setting.

Netflix description

Right By Me

(Rainbow boy... Rung tua thii paet khawng khwaam rak)

2005NR100 minutes

Based on Alex Sanchez's novel Rainbow Boys, director Thanyatorn Siwanukrow's touching drama centers on three Thai teens (Palat Ananwattanasiri, Pimpong Isarasena na Ayudhya, Jackie) struggling to come to terms with their homosexuality while dealing with the pressures of college life. From the challenges of coming out to first loves, this coming-of-age tale paints a poignant picture of living as a young gay man in Thailand.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Jingthing

[pjbradley]

As one of the producers and writers of the movie, I've heard your question before, but only from people whose knowledge of Thailand is limited (for example, during the Q&A sessions I attended a few years back at the London Gay Film Festival; the movie has been shown at gay festivals around the world).

So if you live in Thailand, I'm stunned at your question. As I've told overseas audiences, homophobia here is rampant; Silom has about as much to do with Thailand as Manhattan's West Village has to do with, say, Alabama. I mean, just look at what happened in Chiang Mai the past two years when groups tried to form gay pride marches: people beat up as the police stood by and watched (mid-1950s America again, to use your citation).

When our movie opened at RCA House, the theater owner called us a few days later to say Thai gay men were crying in the audience, having never seen themselves portrayed realistically in a Thai movie. We produce the Thai-language Bangkok Radio for Men on NationRadio, and the Thai callers are tense and occasionally weeping at how awful they feel about their situations. The level of self-hatred (internalized homophobia) is something I haven't seen since I came of age in the suburban US in the 1970s. It breaks my heart, though we're grateful for the chance to help anyone we can.

The fear and self-loathing of Thai gay men in this country is widespread and deep. We maintain an active outreach through our media with gay men who come to us for help and support: dealing with everything from HIV infections to attempted suicides out of despair. We have a lifetime of work cut out for us, and we'll continue as long as we can.

Thanks for your posting.

[rickthailand]

As one of the producers and writers of the movie, I've heard your question before, but only from people whose knowledge of Thailand is limited (for example, during the Q&A sessions I attended a few years back at the London Gay Film Festival; the movie has been shown at gay festivals around the world).

So if you live in Thailand, I'm stunned at your question. As I've told overseas audiences, homophobia here is rampant; Silom has about as much to do with Thailand as Manhattan's West Village has to do with, say, Alabama. I mean, just look at what happened in Chiang Mai the past two years when groups tried to form gay pride marches: people beat up as the police stood by and watched (mid-1950s America again, to use your citation).

When our movie opened at RCA House, the theater owner called us a few days later to say Thai gay men were crying in the audience, having never seen themselves portrayed realistically in a Thai movie. We produce the Thai-language Bangkok Radio for Men on NationRadio, and the Thai callers are tense and occasionally weeping at how awful they feel about their situations. The level of self-hatred (internalized homophobia) is something I haven't seen since I came of age in the suburban US in the 1970s. It breaks my heart, though we're grateful for the chance to help anyone we can.

The fear and self-loathing of Thai gay men in this country is widespread and deep. We maintain an active outreach through our media with gay men who come to us for help and support: dealing with everything from HIV infections to attempted suicides out of despair. We have a lifetime of work cut out for us, and we'll continue as long as we can.

Thanks for your posting.

can someone tell me where in chiang mai i can buy this movie as i would like to see it.

thanks

rick

[dsprtliving]

Likewise....anyone seen it for sale in Bangkok? Would like to get a copy and see it as well.

[Scott]

I work in a school and I can assure you that being gay (or being considered to be gay) is not easy. We currently have a 4th grade boy who isn't effeminate, but for some reason has been targeted by others as being gay. There are a few mannerisms that might indicate he is and he is talented at music, art and drama.

The other kids, including the girls are relentless, although not physically mean. He has gone from being a happy, outgoing class leader to a sullen and unhappy child.

He's a little young to know if he's gay and his peers are certainly too young to making these kind of identifications. I don't know where it comes from.

Over the years, I've seen a few other examples.

[SweatiePie]

So if you live in Thailand, I'm stunned at your question. As I've told overseas audiences, homophobia here is rampant; Silom has about as much to do with Thailand as Manhattan's West Village has to do with, say, Alabama. I mean, just look at what happened in Chiang Mai the past two years when groups tried to form gay pride marches: people beat up as the police stood by and watched (mid-1950s America again, to use your citation).............

The fear and self-loathing of Thai gay men in this country is widespread and deep.

I was surprised to read this too, partcularly from someone whom I had thought was at least knowledgeable about things in Thailand, if not always well informed.

How little "most foreigners" know of the "current Thai reality", with many farangs here continually talking about the lack of prejudice in Thailand and how it is so accepting of gays and sexual minorities. In the major urban areas such as Bangkok and Chaing Mai, in particular, prejudice is not only as strong as it has always been, but it is probably growing. Many Thai gays are "accepted", but only in their place, which usually means either the entertainment industry (from a "character" as a TV reporter or personality, to a dancer at Tiffany's, or the sex trade) or work as a maid or a hairdresser. Some, if they are from good enough families, can become teachers or go into the family business but these are the exceptions.

In Pattaya in particular there is a disproportionately large number of gays, particularly fems or ladyboys who are more obvious to the many farangs there, who have nothing to do with the sex industry (and never have had) - they do the same jobs as anyone else, from driving trucks to working as waiters, cashiers in the supermarket, security guards, etc. Why? Because there's safety in numbers.

In contrast to "1950's middle-America", or even today's middle America, the most tolerant area in Thailand is Issan, where at least in their home villages most gays are more accepted and far less discriminated against or bullied at school than elsewhere else in the country. Why? Because, by and large, everyone is reatively poor and everyone has to work, and as long as they can do their share no-one cares about who they sleep with (and the village gossips gossip about everyone!).

[SweatiePie]

After watching Larry King Live on CNN today I have had occasion to revise my views somewhat and I can now understand rather more why Americans here may find Thailand to be so accepting of gays compared to their own country, as I had not properly appreciated quite how much prejudice gays have to face in America, particularly at school and when young. The situation appears to be considerably different to that in most Western countries, and if true it is infinitely worse there now than anything I experienced or was even aware of in an English school in the 70's. So much for progress and change.

According to the show suicide rates among gay teens are 4 times higher than their straight peers in America, with half a dozen gay teenagers committing sucide in just one week recently, and bullying and taunting at school is the norm, as is open rejection by the all-powerful Church. On top of that in 33 states it is allegedly still legal for someone to be fired for nothing more than being gay (although it did not say when any of these laws had last been used).

While Thailand may be far from the "gay paradise" that some farangs perceive it to be I can understand that it is all comparative - consequently I think it would be fair to say that it is not so much that Thailand is particularly "good" in this regard, but that it is considerably "less bad" than the USA.

[Scott]

I think we have to be careful about the issue of suicide and gay youth. For many youth the voyage of self-discovery is a painful and scary one. One of my best friends had two very serious suicide attempts while he was in high school. He is gay, but was never identified by anyone as being gay. He was popular and very well-liked. He is intelligent and articulate.

The turmoil that many gays face is internal. Bullying and discrimination make it much, much worse.

Growing up in a small community and being gay is not easy, however, small communities are often much more accepting of deviations from the norm than larger areas. I grew up in a small community and there were a few of us who were gay. It was never talked about and by and large there wasn't much bullying. Any discussion of gays, however, showed an extreme prejudice on the part of most people, but it was vented at some sort of stereotypical gays from other places.

At that time, coming out of the closet would have been extremely uncomfortable and probably dangerous. For some it is easier to live a lie than it is for others. The biggest lie, however, is the one we try to tell ourselves.

[pjbradley]

To the contributors here who have asked about buying a local DVD of our movie, I'd like to answer directly on this forum, but that would be in violation of Forum Rule #10. In addition to Thailand, the movie is distributed in North America and Germany. As for comparisons of homophobia between Thailand and the US, I would agree that today the biggest threat to Thai gays is the internalized homophobia, the self-loathing, which leads to all kinds of self-defeating and self-destructive behavior. To the extent that straight people even think about gay people, they seem to imagine that once a gay person realizes he is gay, he merely throws away all the homophobia he has absorbed since he was born. As I try to explain, instead it sets up an awful conflict within, and few methods exist in Thailand to help a tortured gay person build a healthy self-image and self-esteem. That's why we decided to produce gay-positive, realistic media, because society learns how to see people through the media: change the images and change the social attitudes. For example, I believe gay marriage in the US is only talked about now because of the influence of "Will & Grace." As I often say, "Thank god for Will & Grace," which sent positive images of gay people into tens of millions of homes every week during prime time, during the children's house (before 10p). Even so, it's still bad in many parts of the US. In Thailand, the dominant Buddhist influence seems to take the edge off of the worst of societal homophobia, i.e., the gay-bashing and murders that the US has experienced over the decades. It wasn't so long ago that a guy could murder a gay person and be acquitted by using as a defense, "He came on to me." Today that doesn't fly anymore, thankfully. Things are changing for the better, but oh-so-slowly. We hope to do the same in Thailand, and by extension, influence the region. Thanks for all the comments, which are great to read.

[elkangorito]

As an educator in this country (Thailand), I can assure everyone that homophobia is alive & well!

On many occasions, students have verbally denounced another student as being gay. This is usually done with a lot of snickering & laughter whereas in the west, I'd imagine a lot of animosity & hostility.

In my summation, Thai students are new to this kind of discrimination (I think there is a western influence here). I always say something like. "So what! He/she is gay...what's your problem? Anyway, I don't care. You could be Burmese & I would still teach you equally." This usually neutralises the situation.

There are many effeminate guys at my place of work. None of them appear to be victimised, although I may be wrong since I'm not 'in touch' with their personal lives.

Interestingly enough, there are some obviously gay Thai teachers at my place of work. Maybe I'm lucky? Maybe I live in an area of Thailand that seems to have a greater acceptance of gay people compared to other areas?

This whole thing still escapes me!!!

Why are gay people victimised? What did we do? We have little to no desire to reproduce with the opposite sex & therefore we are not a competitor!

I sincerely hope that this movie does provoke a positive image, although the hard line homophobists will never listen to anything.

I've lived through years of torment (self induced & societal) & I hope that nobody has to ever undergo such an awful thing.

Edited October 20, 2010 by elkangorito

[SweatiePie]

......... Things are changing for the better, but oh-so-slowly. We hope to do the same in Thailand, and by extension, influence the region. Thanks for all the comments, which are great to read.

Afraid I can't agree with all of that, PJ..

Yes, 100% "society learns how to see people through the media", but that's part of the problem to me. Have you watched Channel 3's evening soap recently? Thats how the Thai media consistently portrays Thai gays - mincing ladyboys who are a bunch of bitchy dress-designers and make-up artists. "change the images and change the social attitudes", sure, but those images haven't changed here since there Thai media began.

The images that need changing aren't those on Channel 3 any more than they are in Will and Grace. The images that need changing are of real-life gays in real-life situations, such as Mark Bingham on Flight 93 (9-11) and of gays simply doing their normal jobs in normal (or even abnormal) circumstances. We need to be accepted for who we are and for what we can do, not in spite of what we are or, even worse, because of what we are.

And, as has been discussed here before at some length on various threads, why the American gay obsession with "gay marriage"? The rest of us seem perfectly happy with partnerships or unions, as long as they have the same legal and moral rights as marriage - unlike the racial divide and segregation, there are biological differences between men and women and between gay and straight couples, so why not accept that and stop making things difficult for yourselves?

And just what do you mean by "We hope to do the same in Thailand, and by extension, influence the region."? This is the only thing you said that I take real exception to, but just who do you mean by "we"? I hope you mean those Thais involved with the movie, since as Thailand is clearly so far ahead of America as far as gay acceptance and integration is concerned the last thing we need is an American journalist trying to change things here - as elkangorito suggested, it is Western influence and prejudice that is largely responsible for starting and feeding discrimination against gays here. Gays in the West seem unable to either accept or understand that before the West became involved in Thailand and influenced Thai culture, directly and indirectly, gays were fully accepted and integrated into Thai society on every level. No personal offence intended, but Western morals and the Western press have always been part of the problem, and are unlikely to ever be part of the solution.

Edited October 20, 2010 by SweatiePie

[pjbradley]

Hi, SweatiePie: Of course I refer to Thai people in our company when I say "we." After all, as a Thai corporation, we're majority owned by Thais, and I'm not the one out there on radio, TV, and in movies speaking Thai to other gay Thai people. I hope that assuages your defensive, nationalistic concerns. As for gay marriage, in any country, marriage confers automatic legal rights and privileges that unmarried couples don't acquire merely by living together. Even if an unmarried couple has the means to hire a lawyer and accountant to figure out how to acquire some of those rights, which are especially important during times of trouble (illness, death, etc), some things aren't allowed without marriage (survivor benefits with government pensions, for example, and marriage visas). The opposition to gay marriage is simple: it's the last acknowledgement that gay people are equal to straight people qua people, and most older straight people (who grew up with those negative media images about gay people) oppose it the way they did mixed-race marriages, using similar language. As for Channel 3, I don't own the company, so I apologize for being unable to change the soap-opera junk that's not only homophobic, but terribly sexist. But every journey starts with a first step; somebody has to be first. We have our weekly radio show as well as our new weekly TV show on satellite. It's still small potatoes, but one has to start somewhere. Seeing gay people portrayed realistically on TV shows, on radio, in movies, and in books is what we're about, so we can help gay people overcome their homophobia by showing them that models exist to freely live open, happy, healthy lives, in contrast to the dreadful message from the homophobic garbage that you cite on Channel 3 and in the movies, which teaches everyone that "gay" means a stupid, silly man who wears a dress and is unworthy of respect, only to be laughed at and looked down upon. It's frustrating and hard work, but enough lonely, isolated gay men seek us out for help, and we're happy to do what we can, regardless of one's nationality.

[endure]

To the contributors here who have asked about buying a local DVD of our movie, I'd like to answer directly on this forum, but that would be in violation of Forum Rule #10. In addition to Thailand, the movie is distributed in North America and Germany.

Why not the rest of Europe? I can buy a copy from the US but I'll get charged as much for carriage as for the DVD!

[endure]

Hi, SweatiePie: Of course I refer to Thai people in our company when I say "we." After all, as a Thai corporation, we're majority owned by Thais, and I'm not the one out there on radio, TV, and in movies speaking Thai to other gay Thai people. I hope that assuages your defensive, nationalistic concerns. As for gay marriage, in any country, marriage confers automatic legal rights and privileges that unmarried couples don't acquire merely by living together.

I think Sweatie is carping at your use of the word 'marriage'. In the UK we have Civil Partnerships for gay folks. They aren't marriages but they are conducted at a Registry Office in the same way that non-religious marriages are and they confer on the celebrants exactly the same rights and responsibilities as a marriage between a man and a woman - including divorce.

When the Civil Partnership Act was first passed in 2004 it specifically forbade religious places from being used but the Quakers, the Unitarians and Liberal Judaism lobbied for this to change and it's now possible to have a civil partnership ceremony in a religious setting if you wish.

[geriatrickid]

It's all in the perspective;

In Thailand, the dominant Buddhist influence seems to take the edge off of the worst of societal homophobia, i.e., the gay-bashing and murders that the US has experienced over the decades

OK, but in Thailand public humiliation is often worse than death. I appreciate that many gay men view transgenders differently and even discriminate against them, but life as a young transgender can be brutal. The humiliation inflicted would not be readily tolerated in the "intolerant" west. One example that stands out is the treatment of conscripts.

http://www.globalpos...ion-transgender

There's a website referenced in the article where you can read the horror stories. There are probably a few exagerated tales on the message board, but the article is a sad read.

Another example is that of access to medical care. I know some people will disagree with me, but in the last year there have been several public announcements and press conferences by various activist groups and the health ministry itself detailing the problems involved with providing medical care to various groups outside the biggest urban centers. It's one of those situations which would not be tolerated in the "intolerant" west. Adolescents are a high risk group for STIs and behavioural related mental health issues. It's bad enough at 16 to go and see a doctor about a burning peehole, but imagine the stress involved when you have to tell a nurse or a doctor within earshort of adults that your posterior is on fire. Sometimes there is nothing there, but kids don't see it that way. Often what's needed is reassurance and they don't get it. Instead they get a judgement, particularly in the rural areas. Most contagious diseases don't differentiate on the basis of sexuality, race, or age and yet,the health care delivery system does. Anytime you see a hospital or doctor featured in a film or soap opera, it's always with a conventional illness and of course everything is super efficient and the patient usually gets cured. Unfortunately, that's not what happens with HIV or cancer or standard diseases in the rural areas.

Edited October 21, 2010 by geriatrickid

[pjbradley]

Hi, Endure: I really wish our movie were available throughout Europe, but only the Germans bought distribution rights to it (both DVD and TV). Believe me, we tried but got nowhere. Sales agents told us that Europeans have much less interest in gay Asian content compared with North Americans, and sales figures (poor in Germanic Europe, high in North America, even accounting for the population differences) seem to bear that out.

[pjbradley]

Hi, again, Endure: Your point about nomenclature (marriage vs. civil unions) is well-taken; I could care less what equal partnership rights for gay people are called, as long as we can have them. Technically, all marriages are civil unions as registered with the government (at least in secular societies, as opposed to theocracies). Marriage is more a religious institution.

[pjbradley]

Hi, Geriatrickid: Thanks for your excellent point about medical care. We work with NGOs on gay health issues (mostly around HIV, as one might expect), and so far the work has focused on urban centers, where a lot of people live. It has been a great learning experience to read comments from people on this site, though also a sad one, as we learn about problems for gay people that don't make the news, such as bullying and the problems of obtaining medical care outside large cities. TV Thai (the former Thai PBS) contracted us to produce two episodes of a planned TV show that addressed gay issues, sort of a gay-oriented version of "60 Minutes." It was straightforward journalism, no soapbox advocacy, to give voice to the voiceless and visibility to the invisible. But the cowards abandoned the effort (though they paid us for the episodes that were never aired), despite their mission statement to produce programming for gay people. TV Thai's real mission, as it is at all institutions, is to provide, preserve, and protect jobs for themselves. It's amazing how quickly that station has grown into a bloated, self-interested bureaucracy, and how quickly the people running it have forgotten their mission. Meanwhile, a 17-year-old boy called us a few days ago to talk about his confusion surrounding his sexual identity; he thinks he might be gay. The second time he called he said a guy is interested in him. Upon mentioning safer-sex practices and HIV, the boy admitted total ignorance on this subject. Unbelievable. Do these useless schools teach anything these days? In my day, we students referred to our sex-ed classes as "too little, too late." These days it's a serious health issue and needs to be addressed (we recently were invited to conduct seminars for educators around the country under the Education Ministry, which clearly has its work cut out for it).

[SweatiePie]

Hi, SweatiePie: Of course I refer to Thai people in our company when I say "we."

Glad to hear that (and I hope you didn't take any offence!).

My main "concern" was that before the influence of so-called Western religions (which in the form of the worst offenders, namely Islam, Christianity and Judaism, are actually middle-eastern religions) there was far less persecution and isolation of gays in Thailand and other Asian countries (and even in your own country under the Native Americans) and gays were an accepted and "normal" part of society.

[SweatiePie]

Hi, SweatiePie: Of course I refer to Thai people in our company when I say "we." After all, as a Thai corporation, we're majority owned by Thais, and I'm not the one out there on radio, TV, and in movies speaking Thai to other gay Thai people. I hope that assuages your defensive, nationalistic concerns. As for gay marriage, in any country, marriage confers automatic legal rights and privileges that unmarried couples don't acquire merely by living together.

I think Sweatie is carping at your use of the word 'marriage'.

Got it in one. Prior to the relatively recent introduction of formalised registered marriages "gay marriages" were not uncommon in Thailand; maybe we aren't as backward as some people think.

("carping" - I like that; I'll have to remember that one!)

[SweatiePie]

One example that stands out is the treatment of conscripts.

http://www.globalpos...ion-transgender

There's a website referenced in the article where you can read the horror stories. There are probably a few exagerated tales on the message board, but the article is a sad read.

Not only sad, but also woefully incorrect and a very poor piece of sensationalist reporting. For any country with conscription transgender conscripts put the Army in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" position; transgender conscripts have not been rejected on "mental disorder" grounds for a number of years in Thailand, following formal clarificaton, and this description was generally used to discourage the large number of conscripts who wanted to avoid military service and who saw cross-dressing for a few hours as the easiest and cheapest way out.

Most gays who are conscripte have no more (or less) problem with military service inThailand than their straight peers - if anything many have an easier time, as the more effeminate conscripts usually become officers' household staff and spend very little time in the barrack room or in the field.

Another example is that of access to medical care. I know some people will disagree with me, but in the last year there have been several public announcements and press conferences by various activist groups and the health ministry itself detailing the problems involved with providing medical care to various groups outside the biggest urban centers.......... Unfortunately, that's not what happens with HIV or cancer or standard diseases in the rural areas.

I wouldn't disagree with you, or with PJ, but I can't see why its a particular problem for gays - HIV and cancer are pretty non-discriminatory, just as sex-ed and safe sex teaching by the government is universally pretty poor. Don't forget, though, that Mechai Viravaidya's PDA is the largest NGO in Thailand with 600 employees and over 12,000 volunteers; in 2007 they were awarded the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation's Gates Award for their work, together with funds of $1,000,000.

[Suradit]

I was surprised to read this too, partcularly from someone whom I had thought was at least knowledgeable about things in Thailand, if not always well informed.

Unfortunately many of the resident experts only "know" Thailand from observations of life in the malls, gogo bars and from the back of baht buses. Considering the source, I'm somewhat surprised that you're surprised.

Edited October 24, 2010 by Suradit

[Ijustwannateach]

PJ, thanks for your contributions and welcome to the forum. I'm sure there would be no objection if anyone who was interested in the movie sent you a PM to ask for more information about access.

[SweatiePie]

I was surprised to read this too, partcularly from someone whom I had thought was at least knowledgeable about things in Thailand, if not always well informed.

Unfortunately many of the resident experts only "know" Thailand from observations of life in the malls, gogo bars and from the back of baht buses. Considering the source, I'm somewhat surprised that you're surprised.

The more I read here, the more aware I become of the difference between being knowledgeable and being well informed. As I said in another thread here, while I may disagree with much of what JT said I still think this particular forum is the poorer for his self-imposed exile.

[Ijustwannateach]

We've had this discussion of the treatment of HIV in Thailand, and I agree with those who see it mainly as discriminating against the poor or poorly educated (mostly the same group though not always). I don't see it as demonstrating homophobia in Thailand in any way whatsoever.

Issues regarding army service are usually in the most conservative domain of any society (just look at what's happening in America compared to say, the UK or Israel) and it is not surprising to find the armed forces of a country which has still barely emerged from Victorianism to be quite uptight about such things. In any case, there are plenty of GAYS in the Armed forces (and I know this for a fact)- it's just you can't go if you want to cross dress or have surgical alterations to a non-uniform gender.

I agree with PJ that FAMILY discrimination remains the scariest threat to gay youth in Thailand, followed potentially by EMPLOYMENT discrimination and then possibly (depending on location and the people involved) some forms of RELIGIOUS discrimination (there are Christians here, after all...) Many families cannot accept that *their* son (and the possessive is quite explicit) would turn out to be other than that which they imagined- and I know of families where this is true from the rural backwoods to the urban hi-so's. Especially true in those families where the only or 'number 1' son has already been slotted into a pre-programmed role before he was even born.

If an employee, no matter how closeted and straight-acting, cannot do all the straight male-bonding stuff at work for singles- including possible visits to straight-oriented nightlife- or produce a wife and children for respectability as he ages- he will NOT generally be in as favourable a position as the straights who do. Not to say this is universal or affects every gay Thai worker, but it is certain a trend here- as it is in just about every other country if we wanted to be honest. I know several Thai (and at least 3-4 foreigners here) older than 50 who went the 'get married and pretend' road first for just this sort of reason. Things are getting easiER, but still not easy.

In fact, because there are so few public services of ANY kind here, it is possible to claim that government institutions are LESS discriminatory in that they serve everyone equally poorly- though there are some benefits to marriage and kids tax-wise and insurance-wise and so forth, which are mostly denied gay families world-wide at this time.

[SweatiePie]

I'm not quite sure I've fully understood what you wrote, so to clarify:

Issues regarding army service are usually in the most conservative domain of any society (just look at what's happening in America compared to say, the UK or Israel) and it is not surprising to find the armed forces of a country which has still barely emerged from Victorianism to be quite uptight about such things. In any case, there are plenty of GAYS in the Armed forces (and I know this for a fact)- it's just you can't go if you want to cross dress or have surgical alterations to a non-uniform gender.

"army service", including conditions for gays, are very different in the UK and Israeli armed forces, which is hardly surprising as the former has been all-volunteer for 50 years while the latter is largely conscript. I claim to have little personal knowledge here, but a friend of mine has (he is currently the "senior gay" in the British military!).

Are you referring to the States as having an armed forces which is "quite uptight" about gays and "a country which has still barely emerged from Victorianism" or Thailand? I presume it is the States, and although I don't have enough personal experience of the US to really comment I had not realised that things were quite as bad as they appear to be painted here.

I am also not sure which "Armed forces" you refer to as having "plenty of GAYS".

If Thai, you are not entirely correct: the Thai military has "plenty of gays" serving openly (and presumably some not so openly) and those who have already had "surgical alterations to a non-uniform gender" are identified at the conscription point during the medical examination and rejected on medical grounds (not mental grounds any more), but there is no such bar on those who "want to cross dress". Any such bar would be open to abuse as a way of avoiding conscription (as I have already explained) and so it is specifically not a bar to military service and conscription (although conscription officers are given a lot of leeway and common sense usually applies), or to continued military service. I believe the same general rules are applied in the Israeli military.

If American, then the rules are still clear: no-one openly gay.

If British, neither cross-dressing nor surgery is a problem (although I am told it is unusual!) and one WO2 (Warrant Officer class 2) continued to serve in the Army after a full sex change operation.

In fact, because there are so few public services of ANY kind here, it is possible to claim that government institutions are LESS discriminatory in that they serve everyone equally poorly- though there are some benefits to marriage and kids tax-wise and insurance-wise and so forth, which are mostly denied gay families world-wide at this time.

I am not sure what you mean by "public services" which we have "so few" of. Maybe this has a different meaning in the States, but as far as I was aware "public services" were such things as the military, fire services, police, sanitation, schools, medical treatment, etc. While we may not quite have the budget the US has for these services they certainly exist and most of those here (farang and Thai) are well aware of them. Some are open, justifiably, to criticism but some services are way above the standards in some Western countries - what comparable health care systems do you have in the States, for example? Do you have a free government clinic in every parish, paid maternity leave and maternity grants (for all tax payers), or any government funded treatment for those with HIV or AIDS?

Edited October 26, 2010 by SweatiePie

[Ijustwannateach]

I'm not interested in turning my off-hand comments into a big topic diversion here- suggest you go start a thread or something in general or in jobs & economy or somewhere like that if you want a big debate on the issue- you could quote all of these last 3 messages to set the context for that thread if you wanted.

As one minor 'for-instance,' many of the public services you mention are effectively privatised mafias- including police (who must be paid or bribed to do their jobs, with no interest in forensics), firemen (who compete with different groups bidding for your money to put the fire at your house out while you panic as it burns), the health service (which has been forced to betray its oaths by providing substandard care as the only economically feasible way to make the doomed 30B scheme work), education (which requires substantial individual investment by parents even for the 'public' systems), etc.

However, that's not an invitation to continue this line of discussion in this thread. Take it elsewhere (and not to PM's, because I'm not interested further).

The topic of this thread is the "Rainbow Boys" movie and its relevance to Thailand.

[ChiangMai2012]

Is there a website where you can watch the documentary? Or - somewhere where you can buy it?

[Jingthing]

Old thread! The title is actually Right by Me, based on Rainbow Boys by Sanchez.

I could only find Part 1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2J9RAr5iAM

I couldn't easily find the entire film. There is a site called yaoiotaku that claims to have it for registered members.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Jingthing

[Ijustwannateach]

Thanks, JT- I can't remember offhand if this is one that I ever found on video or not. Have to organise my 'media' and see.

Something that struck me when I first saw this film (awhile back now)- is anyone aware how common actual support groups of the type portrayed in this film are out there in Thailand? I am aware of a number of HIV/AIDS NGOs, and a few support groups for sex workers. I also know of at least a loosely organised gay student movement in Chiang Mai (the one whose parade was shut down by Red Shirt Homophobes). While I have seen students at various schools clearly hanging out based on self-identification of sexuality, I am not familiar with many formal student groups or community organisations who are there to support or counsel gays having issues with coming out or other social concerns. There's also 'Rainbow Sky', but I hear of them more in a political action context more of the time than a social counselling one.