Pattaya Atm Charges For Foreign Cards - Update

[Forkinhades]

^ darn, you got me

is it supposed to be a link?

Edited June 14, 2010 by Forkinhades

[SurfRider]

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"Yesterday's quoted Rate: 31.7259 [on XE.com]"

Yesterdays average IER was 32.4647 -- If XE.com was offering only 31.7259, the loss due to the inferior exchange rate would have been 740 Baht on a transfer of US$1000

However, the rate that XE.com reports on their website and whatever rate they actually give on a real transaction may not be the same. The only way to be certain would be for someone who has actually used XE.com to report the amount of US$ that was deducted from their account, as well as the amount of Baht received in their Thai account, and the date that the transfer took place.

If the example above turns out to be accurate, and XE.com charges $22 in addition to the inferior exchange rate, there is no doubt that AEON is the way to go-- and even if you can't access AEON, you could incur quite a few 150 Baht Thai ATM fees before you would equal the cost of using XE.com

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Edited June 14, 2010 by SurfRider

[Forkinhades]

unless of course you do it once a year, and transfer your living expenses for the following year.

[SurfRider]

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"unless of course you do it once a year"

Yes, that's one possibility, but many people receive monthly and/or quarterly income, so funds are only available for transfer on a periodic basis.

.

[Michigan]

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"Yesterday's quoted Rate: 31.7259 [on XE.com]"

Yesterdays average IER was 32.4647 -- If XE.com was offering only 31.7259, the loss due to the inferior exchange rate would have been 740 Baht on a transfer of US$1000

However, the rate that XE.com reports on their website and whatever rate they actually give on a real transaction may not be the same. The only way to be certain would be for someone who has actually used XE.com to report the amount of US$ that was deducted from their account, as well as the amount of Baht received in their Thai account, and the date that the transfer took place.

If the example above turns out to be accurate, and XE.com charges $22 in addition to the inferior exchange rate, there is no doubt that AEON is the way to go-- and even if you can't access AEON, you could incur quite a few 150 Baht Thai ATM fees before you would equal the cost of using XE.com

.

5000 US$ translated into Baht 158629 using the service this Sunday

Taking out 10,000 baht out of the ATM cost me US$ 325.00 (inluding the $ 3.00 service fee) [June 11]

Comparing the two:

5000 / 325 times 10,000 baht equals 153846

Difference 158629 minus 153846 = 4783 baht

Even with the $ 22.00 wire fee it might be worth the savings and you don't have to go to the ATM multiple times.

For monthly living expenses I wouldn't bother and just use an ATM.

BTW, the Aeon ATM at carefour was out of order today

[SurfRider]

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Not sure if I understand exactly what you're saying, but:

5000 US$ translated into Baht 158629 using the service this Sunday = Exchange Rate 31.72

The IER as of 24:00 hours Thai time was: 32.4051 THB

So, if you're saying you got 31.72 from XE.com, they shorted you on the Exchange rate by 2.1%

On a 158629 Baht transaction, the rate they gave you cost an additional 3330 Baht compared the rate you would get from an ATM

The only other variable would be whether or not you used AEON and avoided the 150 Thai Baht ATM fee.

.

[tropo]

The IER as of 24:00 hours Thai time was: 32.4051 THB

This is probably just a mid-market average rate between buying and selling.

There is no way my Citibank would give me this rate when transferring funds into Thailand.

[Michigan]

.

Not sure if I understand exactly what you're saying, but:

5000 US$ translated into Baht 158629 using the service this Sunday = Exchange Rate 31.72

The IER as of 24:00 hours Thai time was: 32.4051 THB

So, if you're saying you got 31.72 from XE.com, they shorted you on the Exchange rate by 2.1%

On a 158629 Baht transaction, the rate they gave you cost an additional 3330 Baht compared the rate you would get from an ATM

The only other variable would be whether or not you used AEON and avoided the 150 Thai Baht ATM fee.

.

The banks don't give you 32.40

XE would be cheaper with 31.72, the way I calculated it by over 4000 bt in savings on a $ 5000,00 transfer.

Aeon might become too popular and the ATM running out of money too often.

[SurfRider]

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"There is no way my Citibank would give me this rate when transferring funds into Thailand."

"The banks don't give you 32.40"

True, the Banks DON'T give you the best Exchange Rate on a cash transfer, but an ATM will. That has been my point all along.

How you can say that XE would be cheaper when they're giving you an inferior exchange rate and charging you $22 on top of it is beyond my capability of understanding

Below is an 20,000 Baht AEON ATM foreign currency withdrawal that I did on June 3 -- The ATM Exchange Rate was 32.58 -- The IER for that date was very close: 32.5799

06/03/10 ATM Location: CARREFOUR PATTAYA BANGKOK TH -613.87 -- Exchange Rate = 32.58

IER as reported by x-rates.com

2010-06-03 Thursday, June 3 32.5799 THB

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[Michigan]

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"There is no way my Citibank would give me this rate when transferring funds into Thailand."

"The banks don't give you 32.40"

True, the Banks DON'T give you the best Exchange Rate on a cash transfer, but an ATM will. That has been my point all along.

How you can say that XE would be cheaper when they're giving you an inferior exchange rate and charging you $22 on top of it is beyond my capability of understanding

Below is an 20,000 Baht AEON ATM foreign currency withdrawal that I did on June 3 -- The ATM Exchange Rate was 32.58 -- The IER for that date was very close: 32.5799

06/03/10 ATM Location: CARREFOUR PATTAYA BANGKOK TH -613.87 -- Exchange Rate = 32.58

IER as reported by x-rates.com

2010-06-03 Thursday, June 3 32.5799 THB

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Surfrider you pay 613.87 for 20,000 Bt or US$ 307.00 for 10,000 Bt.

I pay $ 325.00 for 10,000 Bt and that's why XE is cheaper for me.

I am using a Chase Credit / Debit Card and it is obviously more expensive than the card you're using.

My HSBC debit card only charges $ 1.50 per transaction vs the $ 3.00 from Chase; maybe their exchange rate is better as well, will have to give it a try !

[SurfRider]

'

"you pay 613.87 for 20,000 Bt or US$ 307.00 for 10,000 Bt. I pay $ 325.00 for 10,000 Bt and that's why XE is cheaper for me"

So you're saying you'd rather pay $325 for something you could buy for $307 and that's why it's cheaper???

I don't know anything about the $1.50 and $3.00 charges you referenced - my Debit Cards have no such fee. Sounds like you need a different Debit Card.

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[tropo]

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"There is no way my Citibank would give me this rate when transferring funds into Thailand."

"The banks don't give you 32.40"

True, the Banks DON'T give you the best Exchange Rate on a cash transfer, but an ATM will. That has been my point all along.

How you can say that XE would be cheaper when they're giving you an inferior exchange rate and charging you $22 on top of it is beyond my capability of understanding

Below is an 20,000 Baht AEON ATM foreign currency withdrawal that I did on June 3 -- The ATM Exchange Rate was 32.58 -- The IER for that date was very close: 32.5799

06/03/10 ATM Location: CARREFOUR PATTAYA BANGKOK TH -613.87 -- Exchange Rate = 32.58

IER as reported by x-rates.com

2010-06-03 Thursday, June 3 32.5799 THB

.

What do you mean by an "IER for that date"? IER change by the minute. A 'daily rate' would be an average for the day.

It must have been a coincidence that you were taking money out during an exchange rate spike because there is no way you'd get that close to the actual IER at an ATM.

BTW, 32.5799 = 32.58

[SurfRider]

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"What do you mean by an "IER for that date"? IER change by the minute"

True, the IER changes-- but if you check the overall range for any given day, it's very minor -- normally a matter of pennies. Certainly far less than the 2.1% variance that the poster reported.

So, I'm not quite sure what your point is, unless it's strictly to be argumentative . . .

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[SurfRider]

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"you were taking money out during an exchange rate spike because there is no way you'd get that close to the actual IER at an ATM."

Your statement goes directly to the heart of the problem. I could post the same results for hundreds of ATM transactions over the past 5 years, but no matter how much evidence is presented, you're not going to accept it.

The bottom line is that you're simply wrong in what you're stating and you are misleading people in this Forum by doing that. Who knows where you're getting your information about what you believe to be true, but it is simply not correct!

Myself and many others I know get very close to the IER on every ATM transaction and have for years.

As I mentioned very early on in this thread -- there was another thread that ran for months after the Thai ATM usury fee was imposed in April of '09 -- It covered every possible variable of ATM withdrawals and bank transfers -- All the data is there if anyone cares to look it up-- but it's obvious from your comments that no matter how much factual evidence is presented, some people will never believe it.

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[tropo]

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"you were taking money out during an exchange rate spike because there is no way you'd get that close to the actual IER at an ATM."

Your statement goes directly to the heart of the problem. I could post the same results for hundreds of ATM transactions over the past 5 years, but no matter how much evidence is presented, you're not going to accept it.

The bottom line is that you're simply wrong in what you're stating and you are misleading people in this Forum by doing that. Who knows where you're getting your information about what you believe to be true, but it is simply not correct!

Myself and many others I know get very close to the IER on every ATM transaction and have for years.

As I mentioned very early on in this thread -- there was another thread that ran for months after the Thai ATM usury fee was imposed in April of '09 -- It covered every possible variable of ATM withdrawals and bank transfers -- All the data is there if anyone cares to look it up-- but it's obvious from your comments that no matter how much factual evidence is presented, some people will never believe it.

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Please explain what the IER for the day means? An exchange rate will change by the minute on X-rates.com and every other exchange rate information service. Obviously it doesn't give a true indication of the exact IER at the moment you withdraw your money.

I disagree that you'll get exactly the current international exchange rate on an ATM withdrawal. You basically tried to prove to us that you got EXACTLY the same rate. (32.58 is exactly 32.5799 rounded up). If you withdrew money on a spike this could show as the same rate as your advertised IER daily rate, but in reality is isn't.

You're actually the one misleading the rest of us with.

Here's an example of spikes:

[SurfRider]

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"if you withdrew money on a spike this could show as the same rate as your advertised IER daily rate"

The chart you posted proves my point -- the entire 24 hour range of the IER for June 15 was .00125% - far below the 2.1% reported by the poster who got screwed by XE.

Here are two more recent ATM withdrawals which show the Exchange Rate received as well as the IER

05/04/10 Location: AS LOTUS PATTAYA NUA (1 BANGKOK TH -619.00 - Exchange Rate = 32.31

Reported IER on May 4

2010-05-04 Tuesday, May 4 32.2653 THB

04/03/10 Location: ATM CARREFOUR PATTAYA BANGKOK TH -681.31 - Exchange Rate = 32.29

Reported IER for April 2 ( x-rates only reports on weekdays )

2010-04-02 Friday, April 2 32.341 THB

( Best of luck with your Spike theory )

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[davee58]

I use an ATM "Plus" card from Citibank at the fee free AEON. On my last withdrawal I got 31.9999 baht for USD. At those rates I can't see any advantage of transferring my money to a Thai bank. Am I blowing money by not transferring to my Thai bank account? I really don't think I'd get a better rate to transfer dollars to a Baht account in Thailand.

Nan Laew, am I f****g up here? What financial wizardry should I learn so I'm capable of leaving the apartment with more than 500 baht in my pocket?

I use my ATM Debit card from Citibank UK for all overseas withdrawals, I opened the account 12 years ago when Citibank had a campaign advertising their Fee Free withdrawals. It has saved me many thousands of pounds over that time.

However commission has crept up over time, it is now 2.75% from a non-Citibank ATM.

And from next month there is an additional 2% charge, minimum £2

From the Citibank UK website..

We charge a 2.75% commission on the amount of any purchase or cash withdrawal (other than through a Citi ATM) in a currency other than the currency of your account.

From 28th July 2010, a charge of 2% (Minimum £2, Maximum £5) will be applied to all ATM cash withdrawals made using your Citibank card, in a currency other than Sterling, from a Sterling account.....

So there is:

- ???% -The Visa cut on the interbank exchange rate

- 2.75% - The Citibank cut on the exchange rate

- 2.00% - The new Citibank additional cut on the exchange rate (Min £2)

- ???% - The Thai bank cut on the exchange rate

- The Thai bank 150 Baht (£3) fee

I guess that is over 7% bank charges for a 10,000 Baht ATM withdrawal, or have I missed anything else??

I have just ordered myself a Caxton FX prepaid mastercard, see how that goes...

Edited June 15, 2010 by davee58

[vont]

what is the fees for the prepaid master or visa card?

sound like a good idea though.

I use an ATM "Plus" card from Citibank at the fee free AEON. On my last withdrawal I got 31.9999 baht for USD. At those rates I can't see any advantage of transferring my money to a Thai bank. Am I blowing money by not transferring to my Thai bank account? I really don't think I'd get a better rate to transfer dollars to a Baht account in Thailand.

Nan Laew, am I f****g up here? What financial wizardry should I learn so I'm capable of leaving the apartment with more than 500 baht in my pocket?

I use my ATM Debit card from Citibank UK for all overseas withdrawals, I opened the account 12 years ago when Citibank had a campaign advertising their Fee Free withdrawals. It has saved me many thousands of pounds over that time.

However commission has crept up over time, it is now 2.75% from a non-Citibank ATM.

And from next month there is an additional 2% charge, minimum £2

From the Citibank UK website..

We charge a 2.75% commission on the amount of any purchase or cash withdrawal (other than through a Citi ATM) in a currency other than the currency of your account.

From 28th July 2010, a charge of 2% (Minimum £2, Maximum £5) will be applied to all ATM cash withdrawals made using your Citibank card, in a currency other than Sterling, from a Sterling account.....

So there is:

- ???% -The Visa cut on the interbank exchange rate

- 2.75% - The Citibank cut on the exchange rate

- 2.00% - The new Citibank additional cut on the exchange rate (Min £2)

- ???% - The Thai bank cut on the exchange rate

- The Thai bank 150 Baht (£3) fee

I guess that is over 7% bank charges for a 10,000 Baht ATM withdrawal, or have I missed anything else??

I have just ordered myself a Caxton FX prepaid mastercard, see how that goes...

[tropo]

The chart you posted proves my point -- the entire 24 hour range of the IER for June 15 was .00125% - far below the 2.1% reported by the poster who got screwed by XE.

You may want to check your math.

It moved by 0.154% on June 15. It also moved by 0.601% on June 9 and 0.462% on June 10.

The chart I posted proves my point - considerable spikes frequently occur during the trading day.

The 2.1% that the other poster reported is the normal fee that most banks charge on international ATM transactions. I have a number of cards and they all charge at least that.

Edited June 15, 2010 by tropo

[davee58]

what is the fees for the prepaid master or visa card?

sound like a good idea though.

As detailed on their site - www.caxtonfxcard.com

There is also the FairFXwhich is a similar prepaid card.

[jfchandler]

That's bad advice below, Syd... You should know better.

A person could get hit by using a foreign debit card and Thai ATMs, that's true.

But if you do it right, ATM withdrawals using certain foreign (non Thai) cards can be just about the best/most cost effective way to access funds here.

Start with only using AEON ATMs to avoid the 150 baht Thai bank withdrawal fee.

Then choose and use a bank card that doesn't charge any foreign currency fee. And even better if you choose/use those that don't charge any foreign currency fee and also reimburse the Thai 150 baht fees should you incur one sometimes...

Charles Schwab and E-Trade both charge no foreign currency fee on ATM withdrawals and reimburse the Thai fees. Capital One charges no foreign currency fee, but doesn't reimburse Thai fees. And, there are others as well.

If you use a card like Schwab or E*Trade, you're getting a better/more cost effective pull of your funds than anyone will get via wire transfer.

And yes, I have Thai bank accounts. But why should I pay to do any wire transfers when I can access my funds via ATM for free.

I think that 99% of people realise that regular ATM withdrawals from a home bank is like setting fire to money. The exchange rate is 3% in most cases and now the 150 Baht fee.

Simply open a Thai Bank Account and wire money on a regular basis.

[vont]

what is the fees for the prepaid master or visa card?

sound like a good idea though.

As detailed on their site - www.caxtonfxcard.com

There is also the FairFXwhich is a similar prepaid card.

thaivisa members, here is the fx card:

[jfchandler]

Naka, you probably don't need or want an AEON bank card. To the best of my knowledge, they only do credit cards, not debit cards, since they are a Japan based credit card provider.

But as mentioned, you don't need any AEON card to do fee-free withdrawals from their ATMs in Thailand. Any foreign card with a VISA or MC logo will work fine, along with several other varieties such as JCB and others.

As for AEON's withdrawals limits, they have set amounts listed on the menu screen of their ATMs, up to 10,000 baht I believe. But you can choose your own amount, and enter it using the number keys on the ATM. I believe I've pulled 20,000 from their ATMs at some point.

But you also have to be aware if the home country bank card you're using has its own daily limit on ATM withdrawals, which most do, and what that daily limit is.

.

"i am going to apply for an aeon card....wonder why it can afford to be so generous with farangs"

AEON is a Japanese Bank and not a member of the Thai Banking Cartel.

But the Debit Cards that are *NOT* charged the 150 Baht Thai ATM fee are foreign Debit Cards, where the funds are coming from a foreign bank account that already exists, not necessarily from an AEON account.

If you already have a foreign debit card, it should work fine in an AEON ATM -- I'm not sure that opening an AEON account would accomplish anything. The funds would still need to originate from a foreign account.

as my last count as of last april 16.... for income tax reporting purpose, there are several debit cards within the family members.... but we never use it at aeon atm to date....

next time when we are close to aeon atm facilities.... we shall try to withdraw 100k and see if that would incur a 150 thb service surcharge....

thx much for the info....

[jfchandler]

So much for your "fee free" Citibank overseas ATM withdrawals... Sounds like it's time to look for a better banking provider.

I use an ATM "Plus" card from Citibank at the fee free AEON. On my last withdrawal I got 31.9999 baht for USD. At those rates I can't see any advantage of transferring my money to a Thai bank. Am I blowing money by not transferring to my Thai bank account? I really don't think I'd get a better rate to transfer dollars to a Baht account in Thailand.

Nan Laew, am I f****g up here? What financial wizardry should I learn so I'm capable of leaving the apartment with more than 500 baht in my pocket?

I use my ATM Debit card from Citibank UK for all overseas withdrawals, I opened the account 12 years ago when Citibank had a campaign advertising their Fee Free withdrawals. It has saved me many thousands of pounds over that time.

However commission has crept up over time, it is now 2.75% from a non-Citibank ATM.

And from next month there is an additional 2% charge, minimum £2

From the Citibank UK website..

We charge a 2.75% commission on the amount of any purchase or cash withdrawal (other than through a Citi ATM) in a currency other than the currency of your account.

From 28th July 2010, a charge of 2% (Minimum £2, Maximum £5) will be applied to all ATM cash withdrawals made using your Citibank card, in a currency other than Sterling, from a Sterling account.....

So there is:

- ???% -The Visa cut on the interbank exchange rate

- 2.75% - The Citibank cut on the exchange rate

- 2.00% - The new Citibank additional cut on the exchange rate (Min £2)

- ???% - The Thai bank cut on the exchange rate

- The Thai bank 150 Baht (£3) fee

I guess that is over 7% bank charges for a 10,000 Baht ATM withdrawal, or have I missed anything else??

I have just ordered myself a Caxton FX prepaid mastercard, see how that goes...

[jfchandler]

At least for U.S. folks, there are still plenty of bank/ATM card options that charge NO fees for international ATM withdrawals...

For folks from other countries, they should speak up for themselves.

I haven't heard much from the non Americans on this point. But I'd find it hard to believe that some U.S. banks are the ONLY ones offering fee free international ATM withdrawals....

Even for U.S. folks, those fee free deals aren't out there shouting at folks... It's really pretty much a niche issue...banking services that benefit ex-pats.... But if you go looking and do the research, at least in the U.S., they can be found. And as you might gather, those deals are becoming more well known among the U.S. expat community as both U.S. and Thai bank fees have continued to rise.

The 2.1% that the other poster reported is the normal fee that most banks charge on international ATM transactions. I have a number of cards and they all charge at least that.

[jfchandler]

Sorry, but I'd imagine that XE approach is not a very good solution compared to the better alternatives available...

For starters, the $22 is just the XE fee, and sizeable at that.

Then, I'd imagine, the Thai bank is charging their own fee for receiving the funds if they arrive in other than baht, and/or XE is taking a cut of the proceeds by giving you a lower exchange rate than you'd get from a fee-free ATM withdrawal, since those rates have been around 32.2 or 3 baht to the dollar lately.

Has anybody tried using the xe.com method? They are a FOREX company, if you set=up an account you can ask for a deal they will offer the deal for 3 days - you then decide if you wont to accept. Because xe.com has offices in the UK you transfer money to them at zero cost for most UK bank a/c holders. if you go for the deal after receipt of your money they will deposit Thai Bart into your Thai bank a/c. The web site can give a lot more detail.

Has anybody used this service? Good or bad ? please tell.

I am using the Canadian XE.com, works really well, withdraws money from my US bank and deposit in my Kasikorn account. [baht]

Wire fee $ 22.00 regardless how much you transfer.

Takes about 10days to complete the process.

Hope this helps

That sounds like a pretty good solution, what about exchange rates are they favourable ?

[jfchandler]

No Tropo... Surfrider is correct, and that is the kind of exchange rate people are getting right now when they use a home country bank card that doesn't charge any foreign currency exchange fees on international ATM withdrawals, like E-Trade, Charles Schwab, Capital One, and others.

Unfortunately for you, Citibank is not one of those. They are like the other majors (including BofA, Chase, Amex and others) who are happy to take 2-4% of every international ATM transaction made by their customers, thus cutting your real exchange rate well under the 32 mark, as you've discovered. And then the Thai banks try to take their 150 baht per withdrawal cut.

The better rates are out there, but you're not getting them from your bank.

FYI, IER stands for InterBank Exchange Rate, which is about what you would get from an ATM withdrawal assuming neither the Thai bank or your home country bank are taking cuts out of your funds.

The IER as of 24:00 hours Thai time was: 32.4051 THB

This is probably just a mid-market average rate between buying and selling.

There is no way my Citibank would give me this rate when transferring funds into Thailand.

[tropo]

FYI, IER stands for InterBank Exchange Rate, which is about what you would get from an ATM withdrawal assuming neither the Thai bank or your home country bank are taking cuts out of your funds.

The "IER" quoted by Surfrider is the posted rate from X-rates.com. The rates are neither "buy" nor "sell" rates. Instead, they are mid-market rates derived from the mid-point between the "buy" and "sell" rates from global currency markets.

[Michigan]

'

"you pay 613.87 for 20,000 Bt or US$ 307.00 for 10,000 Bt. I pay $ 325.00 for 10,000 Bt and that's why XE is cheaper for me"

So you're saying you'd rather pay $325 for something you could buy for $307 and that's why it's cheaper???

I don't know anything about the $1.50 and $3.00 charges you referenced - my Debit Cards have no such fee. Sounds like you need a different Debit Card.

.

Right now I have to use he tools available to me and that is my Chase Debit Card and XE.

XE is cheaper for me right now, but I obviously rather pay $ 307.00 than $ 325.00 for 10000 Bt

Maybe you can tell me what Card you're using ?

Edited June 15, 2010 by Michigan

[jfchandler]

I'm very familiar with the X-rates.com web site, but I don't know the basis or source of the statement you make below.

But I do know this from extensive personal experience: the daily Thai baht exchange rate posted on X-rates.com has an extremely high correlation with the actual, real ATM withdrawal exchange rate that I, Surfrider and others get by using ATM cards that have no foreign currency fees charged. Or, to put it in more direct terms, the X-Rates numbers are extremely close, time and again, to our actual ATM withdrawal rates.

Likewise, the Bank of Thailand has an official web site where they daily posted a weighted average Interbank Exchange Rate for the Thai baht. From the same site, you can also search back and find their official IER for the Thai baht for prior days.

As an example, for June 14, the Bank of Thailand site's IER number was 32.427 baht to the dollar. The X-rates number for the same day was an almost identical 32.4051. From monitoring the two data points regularly for the past year, I can vouch for that kind of high correlation being typical.

The IER is the exchange rate that banks use when they exchange currencies among themselves. If someone is using an ATM card where the banks involved charge no fees on either end, then they're going to get a rate very close to that daily rate, allowing for some fluctuations during the day of the withdrawal. I know that because, among other things, I've tracked my own ATM withdrawal exhange rates regularly for more than the past year.

All of the above suggests and makes me believe your comment about the X-rates number being a midpoint number between bank buy and sell rates is not an accurate or correct one.

FYI, IER stands for InterBank Exchange Rate, which is about what you would get from an ATM withdrawal assuming neither the Thai bank or your home country bank are taking cuts out of your funds.

The "IER" quoted by Surfrider is the posted rate from X-rates.com. The rates are neither "buy" nor "sell" rates. Instead, they are mid-market rates derived from the mid-point between the "buy" and "sell" rates from global currency markets.