Por Ngor Dor 91 / Witholding Tax Form

[sonic_11uk]

I'm hoping some wise heads may be kind enough to provide some advice on attaining documentation for employment.

I am in the process of changing jobs and moving to a new city. My present company has a bad history of shorthanding leaving staff so I hadn't intended to inform them until the day of my departure.

My new company in the meantime have requested that to apply for my new work permit I submit:

* Receipt and copy of POR NGOR DOR 91 form for year 2009 request from present company.

* Witholding tax year 2009 request from present company.

Is there any other reason for an employee to request these forms other than to leave a company?

Is there a way to request these forms without raising suspicion?

Big thanks to anyone who can shed some light on this.

[TerryLH]

Form 91 is the tax form you fill out to determine if/how much tax you owe.

Your employer wouldn't have that unless they filed for you. What you usually get from them is a form showing gross salary, other payments (such as social security) and any withholdings you had.

You use that form to fill out Form 91 and give it to the Revenue Department. They'll compute what you owe, and tell you how much you owe or get back. This is done prior to the end of March each year.

Your employer would have Form 1's for each pay period, showing how much they withheld from your salary. Usually you wouldn't get, or even need, a copy of the forms.

[sonic_11uk]

Thanks, Terry.

My present company takes care of absolutely all my taxation.

So it sounds like it would definitely sound suspicious to HR if I were to request these forms.

[tombkk]

My company used to do the tax reporting for me too. However, as an individual tax payer, you are responsible and they should actually give the documents to you each year. You can request this on the grounds that you need your tax declarations and receipts in order to keep your own personal books clean and updated. Just an idea.

[sonic_11uk]

My company used to do the tax reporting for me too. However, as an individual tax payer, you are responsible and they should actually give the documents to you each year. You can request this on the grounds that you need your tax declarations and receipts in order to keep your own personal books clean and updated. Just an idea.

Thx for the info Tom, I suspect my company do this for me to fiddle with the numbers to save tax. I have only recently discovered that staff pay a lot less income tax than what we're supposed to.

I think I will have to come clean and submit my resignation tomorrow so that I can request these forms from HR for my new company but take the risk of losing a chunk of my salary.

[TerryLH]

Why does your new employer want them? They should only need your tax ID number.

Maybe the form 91 for WP purposes, but I'm not even sure they would need it for that.

[junkofdavid2]

It is NOT the obligation of ANY company to file the PND 91 for an employee. It is the duty of each individual employee. If the company does not file it, it is the employee who will be in trouble, and you can't point the finger at the company.

Moreover, at any time, the Revenue department or any govt. agency may ask for it and the onus is on the individual taxpayer to produce it, and you can't point the finger at "the company". If for any reason, the company files it for you, you are actually EXPECTED to ask for the original from the company for YOUR OWN file (and the company should just keep a copy if they wish).

The company should not keep it from you because it is an individual taxpayer's document which the individual should file and keep for life to prove that you paid taxes every year. It is not a company document.

Luckily, if your company filed it for you and didn't give the original to you, I believe you can get a certified true copy directly from your local Revenue Office... for something like 200 baht per page. Very easy, but you'll need to speak some Thai, or bring a Thai friend. Hope this helps.

[tombkk]

(This new software often - but not always - doesn't show the original text when replying.)

It is correct that it's not the employers job to file the Por Ngor Dor 91 for the employee. However, I always appreciated my secretary doing it for me.

[TerryLH]

"However, I always appreciated my secretary doing it for me."

Did it always work out that you never owed, or were owed, anything over or under what was deducted from your salary?

Did they have you sign the form each year?

Using your tax number, or just your name and where you are/were employed, can get you info from the Revenue Dept. They will be able to tell you the status of your account, and whether deductions have been submitted, and whether or not form 91 was filed with them. I was surprised at how much info they had online.

I've never had to get hard copies of anything from them so don't know how much they charge. JofD says 200 baht per page. That means you should be able to get a copy of form 91 for 400 baht. (front and back). That sounds high to me, but probably well worth it if you really need it.

Good luck.

[tombkk]

"However, I always appreciated my secretary doing it for me."

Did it always work out that you never owed, or were owed, anything over or under what was deducted from your salary?

Did they have you sign the form each year?

Using your tax number, or just your name and where you are/were employed, can get you info from the Revenue Dept. They will be able to tell you the status of your account, and whether deductions have been submitted, and whether or not form 91 was filed with them. I was surprised at how much info they had online.

I've never had to get hard copies of anything from them so don't know how much they charge. JofD says 200 baht per page. That means you should be able to get a copy of form 91 for 400 baht. (front and back). That sounds high to me, but probably well worth it if you really need it.

Good luck.

Sometimes I had to pay a few baht, at other times I was returned a few baht. I remember that I had to pay THB 2 one year, and I remember a year when I had to pay THB 12,000. That was when a rule had change and my secretary wasn't on top of it. Last year, on the other hand, I was returned a five-digit figure. I didn't ask why.

I had to sign a document in the old times, before the report could be done electronically. I haven't signed anything since. I am positive that my tax ID number was used.

And I do believe that it is possible to get copies from the revenue department. I don't kow the price, but THB 200/page seems outrageous, maybe you have a zero too many.

[CWMcMurray]

You could tell them that you need them for your visa extension (not sure if they know when your next visa is due) <br><br>-or-<br><br>You can tell them that you need them to file taxes in your home country.... they are unlikely to know about the tax regs and document requirements of your home country, but since these docs are needed to file for taxes in Thailand, it would be very believable to advise them that in order to avoid double taxation you need to submit proof of income and proof of taxes paid in Thailand to your origin country.<br><br>If they know about the filing deadline of your home country, you can tell tem that as an expat, you are automatically given an extension to file your taxes and are authorized for a further extension upon request...<br>

[PoorSucker]

Personal income tax Edited June 29, 2010 by PoorSucker

[sonic_11uk]

I ended up going to HR to request the forms. I made a story about I needed the forms to sort some tax issues back in the UK.

The accounting manager was a bit suspicious but did get the documents for me.

I had also checked with the local revenue office prior who advised that I would need to complete and submit a form for them but they would have been able to produce a Por Ngor Dor 91 form for me. I forgot how much it would have cost.

Is it unusual for a company to fill in the Por Ngor Dor 91 forms for their employees? I know it's really bad but I've never had to do this for myself before as my employers have always done this on my behalf.

[junkofdavid2]

I ended up going to HR to request the forms. I made a story about I needed the forms to sort some tax issues back in the UK.

The accounting manager was a bit suspicious but did get the documents for me.

I had also checked with the local revenue office prior who advised that I would need to complete and submit a form for them but they would have been able to produce a Por Ngor Dor 91 form for me. I forgot how much it would have cost.

Is it unusual for a company to fill in the Por Ngor Dor 91 forms for their employees? I know it's really bad but I've never had to do this for myself before as my employers have always done this on my behalf.

It's not unusual... it's common here for foreigners (maybe even for Thais, I dunno). But legally speaking, it's the obligation of the individual taxpayer and thus,if an employer/company forgets to do it or screws it up, the individual taxpayer can't "blame" the employer. Moreover, an individual is obliged to have the original with him/her; and can't blame the employer for loss, etc. of the document.

Cheers!

.

Edited July 2, 2010 by junkofdavid2

[Arkady]

Here is a good solution. Some countries require tax receipts from expats working abroad to let them out of their national tax net. The UK HMRC is starting to ask for evidence that a British expat is paying tax abroad more frequently now, rather than automatically letting them out of the tax net because they live abroad. In the case of the US it might be needed to avoid double taxation. I would just tell your employer that your home country tax authority has asked for evidence that you have been paying tax in Thailand. In Thailand you would also need this, if you are applying for permanent residence or Thai nationality.

In future I would recommend filing the tax return yourself. It is quite easy to do online from early January to March, if you read Thai or have help from some one who can and have all payslips to hand. If you do it at the beginning of Jan, you can just inform your company you have already done it, so need for them to trouble themselves. Not only do have the documents to hand if needed but you can ensure the returns are filed accurately. In some cases, expats can even claim refunds of tax on dividends and for other deductions.

[tombkk]

(...) In future I would recommend filing the tax return yourself. It is quite easy to do online from early January to March, if you read Thai or have help from some one who can and have all payslips to hand. If you do it at the beginning of Jan, you can just inform your company you have already done it, so need for them to trouble themselves. Not only do have the documents to hand if needed but you can ensure the returns are filed accurately. In some cases, expats can even claim refunds of tax on dividends and for other deductions.

That's easier said than done. No, the normal solution for the expat is to have his company do it. I lived in Taiwan for three years and the tax forms were all Greek to me! This is how the average expat would feel in Thailand, you get the point. You cannot expect an expat to fill in the Por Ngor dor 90 or 91. That's something for the advanced, and even now, after 20 years in this country and reading Thai fluently, I ask my Thai friend to complete the online form for me.