Religion And Spirituality

[Neeranam]

The best description of these two things I heard was -

"Religion is for those people who don't want to go to H- ell, and spirituality is for those who have been there"

Would buddhism, as a religion, fall into the first?

[khunlungphudhu]

Buddhism is quite definitley not a religion, having no god nor saviour!

It is, quite definitly, a good way of life.

[Nordlys]

I have always regarded Buddhism as philosophy rather than a religion. Am I wrong?

[khunlungphudhu]

I have always regarded Buddhism as philosophy rather than a religion.  Am I wrong?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nope! Dead right!

and that 'philosiohpy' word was the one I could not think of!

[Thomas_Merton]

I have always regarded Buddhism as philosophy rather than a religion.  Am I wrong?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nope! Dead right!

and that 'philosiohpy' word was the one I could not think of!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is stupid semantics (the meaning or the interpretation of a word)!

Religion is:

A.

1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.

2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

B. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.

C. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.

D. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

Spiritualism is:

A. The state, quality, manner, or fact of being spiritual.

B. The clergy.

C. Something, such as property or revenue, that belongs to the church or to a cleric. Often used in the plural.

Philosophy is:

1. Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means and moral self-discipline.

2. Investigation of the nature, causes, or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical reasoning rather than empirical methods.

3. A system of thought based on or involving such inquiry: the philosophy of Hume.

4. The critical analysis of fundamental assumptions or beliefs.

5. The disciplines presented in university curriculums of science and the liberal arts, except medicine, law, and theology.

6. The discipline comprising logic, ethics, aesthetics, metaphysics, and epistemology.

7. A set of ideas or beliefs relating to a particular field or activity; an underlying theory: an original philosophy of advertising.

8. A system of values by which one lives: has an unusual philosophy of life.

I’ll include another.

Mysticism is:

A

1. Immediate consciousness of the transcendent or ultimate reality or God.

2. The experience of such communion as described by mystics.

B. A belief in the existence of realities beyond perceptual or intellectual apprehension that are central to being and directly accessible by subjective experience.

C. Vague, groundless speculation.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

What we need in this forum is more clear semantics, a lot less speculation (reasoning based on inconclusive evidence; conjecture or supposition) and considerably more contemplation (thoughtful observation or study and meditation on spiritual matters, especially as a form of devotion).

[khunlungphudhu]

O.K. Thomas, I'll bite!

Where am/have I been stupid?

Semantics or whatever, your quoted definitions all seem to point to the correctness of my simple reply!

[Thomas_Merton]

O.K. Thomas, I'll bite!

Where am/have I been stupid?

Semantics or whatever, your quoted definitions all seem to point to the correctness of my simple reply!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am not accusing anyone of being stupid.

But passed experience from two other threads in this forum, has shown me that there is an enormous tendency to debate very important issues without correctly defining the terms used, and on this flimsy basis reaching speculative conclusions, many of which could be offensive to members whose whole way of being is based upon these matters.

There is too much mindless schoolboy anti-whatever, considering this forum is named Buddhism, and therefore IMHO these scribblers are demonstrating by their puerile insinuations nothing more than complete disrespect to those members who are devoting their lives to exploring this, or any other, way.

[khunlungphudhu]

Thomas, get off your high horse, no one has shown any disrespect, at least none apparent, simple questions, answered quite simply, and, hopefully, in a friendly manner.

There are those of us that like words, lots of them, and those of us that are more simple and direct.

If I offend in that, I do appollogise, I certainly never intended to.

[sabaijai]

Buddhism as generally practiced shows aspects of both religion and philosophy.

From Access to Insight's excellent website:

Is Buddhism a religion or a philosophy?

The Buddha referred to his teachings simply as Dhamma-vinaya — "the doctrine and discipline" — but for centuries people have tried to categorize the teachings in various ways, trying to fit them into the prevailing molds of cultural, philosophical, and religious thought. Buddhism is an ethical system — a way of life — that leads to a very specific goal and that possesses some aspects of both religion and philosophy:

It is a philosophy.

Like most philosophies, Buddhism attempts to frame the complexities of human existence in a way that reassures us that there is, in fact, some underlying order to the Universe. In the Four Noble Truths the Buddha crisply summarizes our predicament: there is suffering, it has a cause, it has an end, and there is a way to reach the end. The teachings on kamma provide a thorough and logically self-consistent description of the nature of cause-and-effect. And even the Buddhist view of cosmology, which some may at first find farfetched, is a logical extension of the law of kamma. According to the Dhamma, a deep and unshakable logic pervades the world.

It is not a philosophy.

Unlike most philosophical systems, which rely on speculation and the power of reason to arrive at logical truths, Buddhism relies on the direct observation of one's personal experience and on honing certain skills in order to gain true understanding and wisdom. Idle speculation has no place in Buddhist practice. Although studying in the classroom, reading books, and engaging in spirited debate can play a vital part in developing a cognitive understanding of basic Buddhist concepts, the heart of Buddhism can never be realized this way. The Dhamma is not an abstract system of thought designed to delight the intellect; it is a roadmap to be used, one whose essential purpose is to lead the practitioner to the ultimate goal, nibbana.

It is a religion.

At the heart of each of the world's great religions lies a transcendent ideal around which its doctrinal principles orbit. In Buddhism this truth is nibbana, the hallmark of the cessation of suffering and stress, a truth of utter transcendence that stands in singular distinction from anything we might encounter in our ordinary sensory experience. Nibbana is the sine qua non of Buddhism, the guiding star and ultimate goal towards which all the Buddha's teachings point. Because it aims at such a lofty transcendent ideal, we might fairly call Buddhism a religion.

It is not a religion.

In stark contrast to the world's other major religions, however, Buddhism invokes no divinity, no supreme Creator or supreme Self, no Holy Spirit or omniscient loving God to whom we might appeal for salvation.1 Instead, Buddhism calls for us to hoist ourselves up by our own bootstraps: to develop the discernment we need to distinguish between those qualities within us that are unwholesome and those that are truly noble and good, and to learn how to nourish the good ones and expunge the bad. This is the path to Buddhism's highest perfection, nibbana. Not even the Buddha can take you to that goal; you alone must do the work necessary to complete the journey:

"Therefore, Ananda, be islands unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge."

[DN 16]

Despite its non-theistic nature, however, Buddhist practice does call for a certain kind of faith. It is not blind faith, an uncritical acceptance of the Buddha's word as transmitted through scripture. Instead it is saddha, a confidence born of taking refuge in the Triple Gem; it is a willingness to trust that the Dhamma, when practiced diligently, will lead to the rewards promised by the Buddha. Saddha is a provisional acceptance of the teachings, that is ever subject to critical evaluation during the course of one's practice, and which must be balanced by one's growing powers of discernment. For many Buddhists, this faith is expressed and reinforced through traditional devotional practices, such as bowing before a Buddha statue and reciting passages from the early Pali texts. Despite a superficial resemblance to the rites of many theistic religions, however, these activities are neither prayers nor pleas for salvation directed towards a transcendent Other. They are instead useful and inspiring gestures of humility and respect for the profound nobility and worth of the Triple Gem.

Religion or Philosophy?

[Neeranam]

Nice reply Sabaijai, thanks.

Religion is:

A.

1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator

Spiritualism is:

A. The state, quality, manner, or fact of being spiritual.

Interesting Thomas, thanks.

Religion is more the belief and Spirituality is the practice?

I used to worry about getting the right definitions and wanting to know what is right, travelling round the world, visiting temples, religious and spiritual leaders, meditating every day, etc. I was never happy

Now I have simplistic view and faith in something I can't describe, especially in words, and concentrate on making myself a better person rather than being right.

Now I am happy

I have practised different types of Bhuddist meditation in the past. Down at Suan Mohk, the temple of Buddhadassa Bikkhu

[chonabot]

"Religion" is perhaps not a very good term to use in connection with Buddhism since it recognises no God or godhead. Life here is not regarded as a preparation for eternity, but as a discipline for governing man's attitude to the here and now, the present conditions, and, if properly carried out, will lead on eventually to what is best. His aim is to arrive and stay at the super-consciousness that was already known to the yogi's. When we reach this state, material things have no meaning, they have been transcended so they cease to attract or repel or impinge on the senses.

This is freedom and it is peace.