Arrested For Shaking Hands

[My Friend Same]

I know an awesome eatery in Patters that has a menu done up to perfection by the owner probably. Tasty awesome food I must say and I eat there everytime I'm in town. I hope they dont close him up or give him probs. I think it's the best food place in the city

oh and I might add that I have never seen this guy or any farang in or around the place unless he's posing as a customer. Please god, let this dude stay! I love the breakfast there and obviously a britwith the Beans nasty offered for b'fast but he got the american stuff pretty much great

as for the shaking hands bar owners...good riddance. those dudes provide zero imo

Edited August 1, 2010 by My Friend Same

[rossigee]

There is nothing to stop you doing work for your company back home whilst you are in Thailand.

As I understand it, you still need a work permit etc to work for any company whilst you are in Thailand, regardless of where that company is registered or based.

[TimeBandit2]

If you're looking for headaches, start a business here.

If not, earn your money other ways.

....

If you do work in Thailand, you need a work permit. If it is only temporary (up to 15 days), check this out:

http://www.thaivisa....ry-work-permit/

If you stay here permanently and work (for example as a bar owner), you need a real WP. Regardless of whether you have a company overseas and business cards with that address. You are here, you work, you pay income tax. It's that easy. All this incorporating a company in your home country is irrelevant to Thai labour law. Don't confuse people.

If you are a passive investor, you don't need a work permit. The moment you sign a check or shake a customer's hand, you are not passive any more and thus need a work permit. It's not really difficult to understand, is it?

Oh, and by the way, "work" according to Thai law does not require a salary. It does not matter whether you get paid for your work. So, even if you work for your company for free, you will still not be allowed to do that without a work permit. That you won't get a work permit if you have a salary of less than a certain amount, is another matter. Work for free is still work.

That's the way the Thai law works. My suggestion (as always) is to follow the law.

Under the Thai definition of WORK... If you are living in Thailand and have posted to this forun, (which is of course a Business) you have contributed content to a commercial enterprise in Thailand, and therefore, like a writer who contributes to a Thai newspaper, you have worked here in Thailand...

Everyone posting here shouldn't forget to run out and get their Work Permits before their next post.

And I don't think that having the ThaiVisa website hosted in Singapore, relieves us of the WP requirement, as they have offices/representatives here in Thailand.

CS

We need to all go turn ourselves in so we can be good law abiding citizens (err... guests or whatever delusional label we give ourselves).

Really though trying to comply with the law doesn't give you magic armor against the problems that business and individuals face here. These problems are not mythical and they don't go away just because you pay your bribes and your wife's sister's uncle is a sergeant at the cop shop or because you have your handy dandy work permit with some ultra specific job you're allowed to do. People just don't care that you're helping the economy by hiring Thai people or you have a good product. They see it as a zero sum game and you're eating their pie.

Besides, let's say if you do try to do everything legally, does that mean you shouldn't pay off the police? Won't that get you into trouble faster than anything else? But it's illegal...so you can't do that no sir.

I meet so many guys who "had a bar," had a business, had a wife, had money, and now they're broken down wrecks and lucky to not be dead. Why bother with it all?

Edited August 1, 2010 by TimeBandit2

[asiawatcher]

There are a plethora of rules in Thailand that can be applied to any situation. If the BiB want money - they will come for it and you have no defence as all. The rules always change whilst the ball is in play as well so don't expect to talk your way out of it. Crackdown or no crackdown - this is all about the scamming of money - nothing more.

Edited August 3, 2010 by lopburi3
flame/language removed

[electau]

The official definition of work is "to engage in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits". Punishments for those ignoring this law include fines, imprisonment and deportation from Thailand. Any employer ignoring this law can also be imprisoned and/or fined.

And an investor should be seen as a "silent partner".

Edited August 3, 2010 by electau

[nickbkk]

You can therefore print the company details from your own country on your business cards. There is nothing to stop you doing work for your company back home whilst you are in Thailand.

I have not read through to the end of this thread, so maybe this is discussed later but this advice looks incorrect. It is my understanding that anything construed by the Thai authorities as work requires both appropriate visa status and a work permit. I think there are some exemptions concerning work permits for a few fields (mostly sports/entertainment and some diplomatic stuff) but doubt this situation is covered by these.

In any case, if you're considering going into business in Thailand, it obviously behoves you to find reliable, expert advice from impartial lawyers and accountants. Kind of an Escher thing, really....

[bangkockney]

If you're looking for headaches, start a business here.

If not, earn your money other ways.

What you need to do is hire a good accountant who will fill you in on the necessary details to avoid said headaches.

As long as you don't draw a salary or dividends from the company, you can be a share holder with no need for a work permit (but don't do any work).

If your type of business allows, incorporate your company in your home country as well as Thailand, split revenues and take your salary from there. E.g., UK tax laws are much more favourable than Thailand; in Thailand dividends are classed as income and taxable at any level. In the UK, it's possible to withdraw £40k from the business and pay no tax, no NI, no employer's contributions etc.

You can therefore print the company details from your own country on your business cards. There is nothing to stop you doing work for your company back home whilst you are in Thailand.

Why would you want the trouble and expense of incorporating the business in a Western country where it has no operations? UK tax laws are not more favorable than Thailand's and dividends are taxable in both jurisdictions. However, in Thailand there is an option to pay a flat rate of 10% on dividends. If the business is actually, you can also receive a dividend on this basis, based on the shares you own, and you don't need a work permit for that. If she is willing you can get her to transfer her dividend to you. She should be receiving a salary from the business at least up to the amount that is tax free for employees. As a director, she does not pay social tax. If the business is not a company but is in her name as a sole proprietor, tax is paid on income at the progressive rates. If no credible accounts are provided, the Revenue Dept will assess tax based on reported sales alone and their fixed formula for expense deductions, if they believe reported sales. Otherwise they have the power to assess the sales themselves. If the business is substantial, a limited company is nearly always better. Small businesses can stay under the radar as sole proprietorships.

Judging by comments by Immigration recently, they are looking more closely into businesses in tourist resorts, particularly Pattaya, that are run by foreigners using Thai girlfriends or wives as nominees because they feel that too many foreign criminals have brought stolen money to Thailand and used it to open businesses in this way. Using Thai nominees is illegal under the Foreign Business Act, Immigration Laws and the Working of Aliens Act. Technically the Thai shareholders or proprietors should provide the funds for their own investments and foreigners without work permits are not permitted to perform any kind of work whatsoever in connection with the business. Acting as greeter in a bar is clearly work. Foreigners are permitted to own 49% of the shares in service businesses and can obtain work permits to act as managing director or in other positions if the business appears credible to the Labour Ministry and Immigration. Americans can own 100% of service businesses, except in certain sectors such as finance and logistics. To be honest Thailand doesn't need foreign investors to open more basic type bars and restaurants that can easily be opened and operated by Thais.

Trouble and expense of incorporating overseas as opposed to Thailand? LOL

Incorporating costs at most £50 in the UK. Thailand is much more expensive.

Full P+L and Balance Sheets need to be drawn up once only, at years end.

For a Thai Co. Ltd. full P+L and Balance Sheets must be prepared every month and submitted so the Government can bill you for sales tax, amongst other things. For example, if you buy advertising with a company cheque, there will be a discount in price which represents the tax due. It is the purchasing company who is liable for paying the tax back to Government.

I don't know what you mean by paying social tax, but all our directors get hit for the Thai equivalent of NI. That is, they have to pick a hospital they want their contributions to accrue at and must register with the relevant Government Department. Oh and don't forget the 3,000 Baht or so it costs to register.

Sorry, but UK tax laws are much more favourable. In the UK, if your salary is just for your personal tax-free allowance, you are allowed to make up the rest in dividend payments, all the way to the high rate of tax (£40k). This means you can remove £40k annually tax-free from the business without any deductions for NI, PAYE etc. You cannot do this in Thailand.

Don't just believe me, speak to a bloody accountant for God's sake!

Edited August 4, 2010 by bangkockney

[bangkockney]

You can therefore print the company details from your own country on your business cards. There is nothing to stop you doing work for your company back home whilst you are in Thailand.

I have not read through to the end of this thread, so maybe this is discussed later but this advice looks incorrect. It is my understanding that anything construed by the Thai authorities as work requires both appropriate visa status and a work permit. I think there are some exemptions concerning work permits for a few fields (mostly sports/entertainment and some diplomatic stuff) but doubt this situation is covered by these.

In any case, if you're considering going into business in Thailand, it obviously behoves you to find reliable, expert advice from impartial lawyers and accountants. Kind of an Escher thing, really....

Right, so you're anywhere in the world on holiday with a tourist visa. You have a roaming plan and reply to some work emails on your BB. Need a work permit? Think not.

[bangkockney]

I chose not to because of increased tax burden (foreigners pay higher tax than Thais), too much paperwork and large capital requirements (2m Baht minimum cash in the business to sponsor a work permit, if memory serves me right).

A highly intelligent comment from one of our asute, high flying, farang businessmen in Thailand...

Tax burden for foreigners and Thai's are exactly the same

If you have Thai residency you are then liable for tax on any Thai income as well as any income brought into the country from elsewhere. Hence, higher tax burden.

[yogi100]

Exactky right. If you are sitting in your wifes bar you can & will be arrested, jailed & deported for working.

Stay upstairs - or like the old timers - sit in the neighbors bar.

A friend of ours had a restaurant/bar in South Pattaya. One day he was sitting at his computer on the premises. The plod marched in an arrested him for 'working without a permit'. He was duly taken to the police station where he was fined 30,000 baht. He strongly object to this extortion and refused to pay. They promptly incarcerated him in the monkey house until he decided that it would be wiser to part with the money. He lasted a week before he realised that resistance was futile and no justice would come his way. He paid the 30K, was released and that was the end of the matter. There was no threat of deportation in this instance.

[johnyb]

Exactky right. If you are sitting in your wifes bar you can & will be arrested, jailed & deported for working.

Stay upstairs - or like the old timers - sit in the neighbors bar.

hi there,if your married and stay in your house (on your wives name,and you planting plants in the garden,do you need a workpermit???

[bkkjames]

Exactky right. If you are sitting in your wifes bar you can & will be arrested, jailed & deported for working.

Stay upstairs - or like the old timers - sit in the neighbors bar.

hi there,if your married and stay in your house (on your wives name,and you planting plants in the garden,do you need a workpermit???

no because you are not working, you are playing in your garden.

anyways, I suspect this kind of thing to continue. time are tough and usually sources of additional income less available. dont make yourself an easy target.

[Thongkorn]

Don't get caught having a J Arthur Rank as you could be fined for taking work away from a Thai ha ha ha

Just tell them you are working a week in hand.

[Mario2008]

1 off topic post deleted. The visa forum is not for cracking jokes.

[tombkk]

Exactky right. If you are sitting in your wifes bar you can & will be arrested, jailed & deported for working.

Stay upstairs - or like the old timers - sit in the neighbors bar.

A friend of ours had a restaurant/bar in South Pattaya. One day he was sitting at his computer on the premises. The plod marched in an arrested him for 'working without a permit'. He was duly taken to the police station where he was fined 30,000 baht. He strongly object to this extortion and refused to pay. They promptly incarcerated him in the monkey house until he decided that it would be wiser to part with the money. He lasted a week before he realised that resistance was futile and no justice would come his way. He paid the 30K, was released and that was the end of the matter. There was no threat of deportation in this instance.

Sounds to me like he was working without a work permit. Well, he would need a lawyer to determine what he did on the computer: If he checked his private emails, he was probably not working. However, you didn't say that. So, I think he violated the law and was lucky to not get deported.

Why do so many people over here think it's OK to violate the law? I think the Thai law is pretty clear about the necessity of a work permit, and the circumstances that define work. Just do the right thing, what exactly is the problem with that?

[tombkk]

You can therefore print the company details from your own country on your business cards. There is nothing to stop you doing work for your company back home whilst you are in Thailand.

I have not read through to the end of this thread, so maybe this is discussed later but this advice looks incorrect. It is my understanding that anything construed by the Thai authorities as work requires both appropriate visa status and a work permit. I think there are some exemptions concerning work permits for a few fields (mostly sports/entertainment and some diplomatic stuff) but doubt this situation is covered by these.

In any case, if you're considering going into business in Thailand, it obviously behoves you to find reliable, expert advice from impartial lawyers and accountants. Kind of an Escher thing, really....

It's not "construed" by the Thai authorities, they just follow the law. Which is not much different from other countries: If you work, you need a permit for that.

If you want to open your own company in Thailand, all the requirements are on the 'net. If you want to work for your company, the same applies: Check the 'net. You don't need a lawyer, but for a reasonable fee (some lawyers charge unreasonable fees, be aware), they can help you with the paperwork. I advise against opening a parallel company in your home country, but that is stuff for another thread.

I don't really see the problem over here. It appears that a guy was greeting customers, which indeed is work but will be followed up on only if he got in trouble with some people. If he is pointed out, the constabulary must follow up (they don't really have a choice), but otherwise nobody really cares for such minor stuff. But then, Pattaya may be different from Bangkok.

[tombkk]

Scarey to have to do such weaving and dodging, covering of tracks, etc., to avoid such headaches. About all I can say is, TIT.

TIT indeed.

It is always worth looking into if you would qualify for a work permit. I chose not to because of increased tax burden (foreigners pay higher tax than Thais), too much paperwork and large capital requirements (2m Baht minimum cash in the business to sponsor a work permit, if memory serves me right).

FWIW I am closing my own 2m company because of the shit the government was handing out on whim. Not worth the candle. So 4 more Thais are unemployed, less VAT and income tax gets paid and everyone loses. Way to go.

in my own experience of Thailand, trying to observe the law and do things right is not the way to go, it just gives them an opportunity to harass Johnny Foreigner and make themselves feel smart and powerful.

Then of course they wonder why fewer people want to invest here. Strange really but TiT, you go through the looking-glass when you enter Thai airspace.

Well, I'm sorry for your bad experience. Of course, foreigners pay the same taxes as Thais, and I have been following the law for 20 years over here and never had a problem.

The government is also not wondering why fewer people invest here, as the applications for BOI privileges have increased in monetary value beyond expectations. I'm afraid this this may not include many bars owned by foreingers though.

[souvenirdeparis]

someone in jail for being behind a computer is like someone in the XXth century in jail for writing with a PENCIL .Next , in jail for possession of a CELL PHONE .This is downright robbery at gun's point .

You're talking about s one who pays tax, has a valid visa and pours good money into the Thaï economy, who's treated worse than an undocumented alien peddling smut and otherwise living on NGO's charities in the western world .

Edited August 12, 2010 by souvenirdeparis

[surayu]

It's not "construed" by the Thai authorities, they just follow the law. Which is not much different from other countries: If you work, you need a permit for that.

Yes i agree, what is really different is the way they define the word "work" , as a westerner would surely not think he's working by cleaning up his own butt after a biological event has taken place, well, don't panic as this has not (yet) been defined as "working" but there are pleanty of other things that for a "westerner"(i would prefer to say, for a "sane mind" instead of "westerner" but that might just sound unfair) would definetely not look like work and are indeed defined by the current law as "working"....

[Sunny Valentine]

It appears that a guy was greeting customers, which indeed is work....

Right, and the customer who reciprocates the greeting is then working, too, and should be extradited with the next plane?

Sorry, but hardly ever before I have seen such a poor argument to support government supported extortion and bribery than here.

[CarlBkk]

The rulebook maybe strict and succinct, but the enforcement doesn't seem to be: Surprised myself and seeing restaurant managers serving customers food daily, farang hotel receptionists (full-time, not on exchange/experience), the guys who make cocktails in bars, the old guy selling with his wife at Suan Lum for years.

Not complaining about it at all, but just saying they're out there doing it without any problems.