Second Thought On Thailand's Piracy Crackdown

[SamritT]

A criminal is a criminal regardless of scale.

[Just1Voice]

I have it on good authority that the "lawyer" was actually Goofy, dressed in a suit, and he was ticked off because they sellers didn't have any bags with HIM on it. Jealousy is a terrible thing.

[phetaroi]

How many of Thaivisa members have a computer that is 100% legal?

I do.

And for the year I lived in Thailand, so did I. 100% legal computer and 100% legal software.

[nikster]

Unfortunately this seems to be yet another case of going after the soft target whilst letting the bigger fish get away.

As for "unknowingly bought these bags" I have never come across a retailer in Thailand who did not understand that they were seling 'copy' goods.

Thats true but that wasn't even a copy good - since when are Mickey Mouse images a crime? Sure Disney holds the copyright on the character. That's a copyright infringement that in my opinion Disney would have to pursue, not the state. No victim no crime. And if Disney decided to prosecute this couple, they could make headlines everywhere, and it would end up being a huge PR disaster for the firm.

I think this couple should go after Disney. Make as much wind about this as they can, and ask the company CEO for leniency. Wait until Americans read about how Disney destroyed a small rural Thai family. That's gonna go over well in the press.

[nikster]

As for Mickey Mouse's copyright being expired. That was the original intent of the copyright law- that an innovator should be able to profit from his / her invention, but only for a time, after which the copyright passes in the public domain.

But Disney didn't like this, and they lobbied (e.g., bought) enough congress members to introduce a special copyright law amendment. I don't know how exactly it works (google it) but it allows Disney and other companies to extend their copyright indefinitely. It's a total joke.

[TAWP]

As for Mickey Mouse's copyright being expired. That was the original intent of the copyright law- that an innovator should be able to profit from his / her invention, but only for a time, after which the copyright passes in the public domain.

But Disney didn't like this, and they lobbied (e.g., bought) enough congress members to introduce a special copyright law amendment. I don't know how exactly it works (google it) but it allows Disney and other companies to extend their copyright indefinitely. It's a total joke.

Exactly - a total joke.

IP law overall, is a joke.

[MAJIC]

Having tried numerous times to import various goods from China,and spending a lot of time negotiating the deal,my final question to the company was"are they copies? that's when the deal either died (no answer)or I got dubious answers,no Replicas,no Generic,no Seconds,no Second generation. In plain English copies.

Needless to say I did not complete the deal/s.

Beware of dealing in Chinese goods of any type or description,that cheap well known brand of Ram will probably be a copy.

My point is:surely copy goods should be intercepted at the point of entry and impounded,by Customs? or is the copy industry too big to deal with? hence they only take on the little retail dealers as a token gesture?

[sjjmmi]

Buyer pay off the customs

Having tried numerous times to import various goods from China,and spending a lot of time negotiating the deal,my final question to the company was"are they copies? that's when the deal either died (no answer)or I got dubious answers,no Replicas,no Generic,no Seconds,no Second generation. In plain English copies.

Needless to say I did not complete the deal/s.

Beware of dealing in Chinese goods of any type or description,that cheap well known brand of Ram will probably be a copy.

My point is:surely copy goods should be intercepted at the point of entry and impounded,by Customs? or is the copy industry too big to deal with? hence they only take on the little retail dealers as a token gesture?

[nikster]

My point is:surely copy goods should be intercepted at the point of entry and impounded,by Customs? or is the copy industry too big to deal with? hence they only take on the little retail dealers as a token gesture?

No, there's way too much stuff coming in. Most packages will pass customs unopened - it's the only way it can work. It's the same everywhere in the world. I once heard that only 1% of train cars going into the USA from Mexico are inspected. There simply isn't enough personnel for more. So if you want to smuggle anything, trains coming from the south are a pretty safe bet.

The idea behind hassling some little guys is to spread fear, so that others may stop doing what they're doing for fear of getting caught. You take out very few, but you make it very public and very brutal, and then you hope all the others will stop on their own. That's why the IRS goes after Wesley Snipes with a vengeance. Only in the case of copycat products in Thailand, there's zero chance it will work. Too many copycat goods selling too well, plus everyone knows that any crackdown in Thailand usually only lasts a few weeks, after which nobody cares anymore. So yeah won't work.

[Johpa]

A criminal is a criminal regardless of scale.

In Thailand that is not the case. A small shop owner may be fined for counterfeiting but never the larger manufacturers, importers, or producers. A small time drug dealer may go to jail, or even be subject to extrajudicial justice, but never a major distributor or financier. In Thailand the people at the top of the criminal totem pole are not considered criminals, and are often actually the people entrusted to uphold the law wearing their khaki or brown shirts with lots of pretty ribbons atop.

As for Disney, Eisner was one of the main proponents behind the Bono Law, AKA Mickey Mouse Protection Act, AKA Copyright Extension Act, and was perhaps one of the most injurious legal machinations by the American corporate ruling elite against not only the people of the United States but, by extension of various international agreements, many others around the world. Although not defined under the US legal system as a crime, the implementation of the Bono Act and the associated blatant abuse of power by the purchasing of the politicians, is seen by many as a criminal act.

[Canada]

I think this is pretty normal for Thailand. "Look, we are enforcing the law."...... For 1 guy; the next 99 go unnoticed. It's a sad story.

This is the land of fake cheap crap and fantasies. Why would anyone want to change it?....

At the risk of sounding cynical or being brow beaten...... as an example...... look at the whole Thai women "thing".....buyer beware.

....but... with all it's fake cheap crap and fantasies, it's a great place.

If I want quality stuff, I generally know how to spot the fake. Quality is not too hard to notice. But I usually start with the perspective of "everything's fake". and go from there.

I hope these people get a break. What a ridiculous story.

[wengesot]

Boohoo. I feel so bad for these rip off artists. Sure it was 4 bags this time. How many of the rip offs did they sell in the week prior, or month prior? How many did they sell last year. All of these merchants know they are selling counterfeit goods. All that it took was for the merchant to say no thank you to their dealer.

These merchants are sympotomatic of the current culture of laziness and ripoffs as it applies to intellectual property. Why bother coming up with an original idea when you can copy someone? Why pay royalties, when you can use a counterfeit product? It is evident with all the fake medications circulating. The culture accepts counterfeiting as a legitimate activity. This has to change because it is costing Thailand. Innovative medications bypass Thailand because the locals try to avoid paying royalties or respecting patents. That's what happens when ripping off people is considered to be ok.

FYI- My computer is 100% legal including all software. Maybe that is one of the reasons I have not been bothered by crashes or malicious programs.

Where did you buy your computer? Here in Kalasin most of the computers come without software and the shop loads whatever you want on demand. Same discs for all so all pirate. This is commonplace in Thailand and no one gives a dam_n but don't accept when it tries to update. Most people here can't afford the 300 pounds (15,000 Baht) for legit software.

[longway]

What a mickey mouse© crime.

Edited August 6, 2010 by longway

[Payboy]

Certainly these upstanding crime-fighters are paying a copyright fee to Sanrio, not?

[singa-traz]

...

FYI- My computer is 100% legal including all software. Maybe that is one of the reasons I have not been bothered by crashes or malicious programs.

Where did you buy your computer? Here in Kalasin most of the computers come without software and the shop loads whatever you want on demand. Same discs for all so all pirate. This is commonplace in Thailand and no one gives a dam_n but don't accept when it tries to update. Most people here can't afford the 300 pounds (15,000 Baht) for legit software.

In term of software, Most people can't affort NOT TO USE free software.

[dantilley]

Most people here can't afford the 300 pounds (15,000 Baht) for legit software.

Windows 7 Starter edition costs less than 1,750 Baht. You can then use Open Office for free to get most of the features from Microsoft Office, and of course all web brosers are free. You could also use Mozilla Thunderbird for emailing, also free. This covers most people's home-use needs.

Edited August 6, 2010 by dantilley

[geriatrickid]

IP Piracy is an imaginary crime purported by big corporations to squeeze out local competition and artificially keep prices up over a merchandise's actual value.

It is also built upon the fallacy that just because you once drew 2 mouse-ears anyone that draws mouse-ears of similar shape somehow are owing you money. Even if you made a new product and did all the work.

Copyright, patent and trademark laws are a joke that has and never will protect 'the little guy'.

The bags in question show Mickey Mouse.

Mickey Mouse is an asset that belongs to the shareholders of Disney Corporation.

Who are the major shareholders of Disney?

Mutual fund investors on behalf of pension funds and individual investors.

When the earnings of Disney are negatively impacted, then the pension fund payouts for retirees are negatively impacted and the holders of the investment interests suffer. Please go and tell the pension funds for diverse groups such as the national penion funds for Japan, the UK, Australia, Canada, USA, Singapore and many others that they are evil and can afford the losses. Go and tell the pension funds of the Labourers Union, Teamsters, multiple Public employee pensions and general workers that hold group pensions that they can afford to lose their income because they are big and evil. Please go and tell the widower living on a pension that her income should be imperiled because you deem it ok to allow herinvestments to be negatively impacted.

It is incredible that some people think that because a large company suffers it is ok. Large public companies are held by diverse groups of people and these people suffer when their income is stolen. It gets down to the fundamental issue of right and wrong. Obviously, some people think that it is okay to steal.

I am sure you would be the first person to cry and whine if a poor person came and stole your telly. Well, you know what? I hereby deem it ok for poor people to loot your home because they are poor and in need of income. You can afford the loss of a television and other valuables because you are farang.

And don't get angry with me. You made the rules.

[BWPattaya]

People do seem to forget that such a lot of copies are readily available, and cheaper, in the UK. It is estimated that 30% of software in Britain is illegal. Movies and music Cds, DVDs are openly on sale at markets. Anyone buying a computer with installed software here in Thailand doesn't get the original disk given to them. A friend here bought a computer, Found the OS was counterfeit, paid Microsoft for a genuine copy and asked a dealer to load it for him. It wasn't long before his new genuine copy was reported as fake. Why? Because the dealer had copied his new, genune, disk and installed it on many other machines.

[GarryP]

I believe in a reasonable return on investment. Thus, if you spend millions in developing new technology, you should be able to license others to use that technology for a certain period in order for you to recoup your investment and gain a (reasonable) profit. Thereafter, when the period of exclusivity has exhausted others may freely use that technology. This type of regime is what fires creativity and invention. You do not invest millions if every Tom, Dick and Harry can freely use your technology. This includes software, your mobile phone, TVs, medicines, etc, etc ad infinitum. Certainly, in some cases the profits being made and license fees being demanded are way in excess of what is fair and reasonable, in many cases down right disgusting. That is a separate issue which needs to be addressed.

In regard to trademarks, lots of time and money is spent on building brands. Kudos to the people who are successful in that. I wear Nike track shoes and know they are over priced. I am, however, willing to pay the premium because the quality is likely to be of a standard I have come to expect and, also, I like the brand. If I wasn't willing to pay the price, I would just by a generic product. I do not, however, buy Gucci stuff, for example, because while the quality may be excellent, I am not prepared to pay the prices Gucci goods demand. I believe it a waste of money. Some of my colleagues, however, don't care about price. The prices a brand can demand are directly linked to how well it is marketed, and marketing is not cheap. People should not be allowed to knock off others property willy nilly.

[jayjay0]

IP Piracy is an imaginary crime purported by big corporations to squeeze out local competition and artificially keep prices up over a merchandise's actual value.

It is also built upon the fallacy that just because you once drew 2 mouse-ears anyone that draws mouse-ears of similar shape somehow are owing you money. Even if you made a new product and did all the work.

Copyright, patent and trademark laws are a joke that has and never will protect 'the little guy'.

The bags in question show Mickey Mouse.

Mickey Mouse is an asset that belongs to the shareholders of Disney Corporation.

Who are the major shareholders of Disney?

Mutual fund investors on behalf of pension funds and individual investors.

When the earnings of Disney are negatively impacted, then the pension fund payouts for retirees are negatively impacted and the holders of the investment interests suffer. Please go and tell the pension funds for diverse groups such as the national penion funds for Japan, the UK, Australia, Canada, USA, Singapore and many others that they are evil and can afford the losses. Go and tell the pension funds of the Labourers Union, Teamsters, multiple Public employee pensions and general workers that hold group pensions that they can afford to lose their income because they are big and evil. Please go and tell the widower living on a pension that her income should be imperiled because you deem it ok to allow herinvestments to be negatively impacted.

It is incredible that some people think that because a large company suffers it is ok. Large public companies are held by diverse groups of people and these people suffer when their income is stolen. It gets down to the fundamental issue of right and wrong. Obviously, some people think that it is okay to steal.

I am sure you would be the first person to cry and whine if a poor person came and stole your telly. Well, you know what? I hereby deem it ok for poor people to loot your home because they are poor and in need of income. You can afford the loss of a television and other valuables because you are farang.

And don't get angry with me. You made the rules.

Every thing you said is true. However all I know is what I have learned on this thread. It was mentioned that while the US Government has passed laws to protect big companies forever there seems to be some disagreement as to weather Thailand is governed by these laws.

Any way as I said earlier I smell a rat.

[TAWP]

IP Piracy is an imaginary crime purported by big corporations to squeeze out local competition and artificially keep prices up over a merchandise's actual value.

It is also built upon the fallacy that just because you once drew 2 mouse-ears anyone that draws mouse-ears of similar shape somehow are owing you money. Even if you made a new product and did all the work.

Copyright, patent and trademark laws are a joke that has and never will protect 'the little guy'.

The bags in question show Mickey Mouse.

Mickey Mouse is an asset that belongs to the shareholders of Disney Corporation.

Who are the major shareholders of Disney?

Mutual fund investors on behalf of pension funds and individual investors.

When the earnings of Disney are negatively impacted, then the pension fund payouts for retirees are negatively impacted and the holders of the investment interests suffer. Please go and tell the pension funds for diverse groups such as the national penion funds for Japan, the UK, Australia, Canada, USA, Singapore and many others that they are evil and can afford the losses. Go and tell the pension funds of the Labourers Union, Teamsters, multiple Public employee pensions and general workers that hold group pensions that they can afford to lose their income because they are big and evil. Please go and tell the widower living on a pension that her income should be imperiled because you deem it ok to allow herinvestments to be negatively impacted.

It is incredible that some people think that because a large company suffers it is ok. Large public companies are held by diverse groups of people and these people suffer when their income is stolen. It gets down to the fundamental issue of right and wrong. Obviously, some people think that it is okay to steal.

I am sure you would be the first person to cry and whine if a poor person came and stole your telly. Well, you know what? I hereby deem it ok for poor people to loot your home because they are poor and in need of income. You can afford the loss of a television and other valuables because you are farang.

And don't get angry with me. You made the rules.

I am so sorry for you as you fail to understand that copyright infringements and trademark reproductions are NOT *theft*.

If someone copies a painting you make you still have the original painting. Possibly of better quality.

If someone steals it you have lost your.

Hence why IP infringements are a civil matter and not a criminal matter.

If you fail to understand this fundamental difference and why IP laws are always mentioned to be 'immaterial rights', then arguing with you cannot go on as you lack the basic knowledge to have a reasonable debate over the pro and cons of IP laws.

[TAWP]

Please go and tell the widower living on a pension that her income should be imperiled because you deem it ok to allow herinvestments to be negatively impacted.

If her investment-return is based on unfair laws etc then she is an important wheel in the machinery of oppression.

But I am sure you would defend the 'poor widow' no-matter what her investment was used for, right?

[dominique355]

IP Piracy is an imaginary crime purported by big corporations to squeeze out local competition and artificially keep prices up over a merchandise's actual value.

It is also built upon the fallacy that just because you once drew 2 mouse-ears anyone that draws mouse-ears of similar shape somehow are owing you money. Even if you made a new product and did all the work.

Copyright, patent and trademark laws are a joke that has and never will protect 'the little guy'.

With all due respect, that is complete nonsense.

Copyright is a protection afforded especially the little guy, the designer, the artist, the writer, the painter, the sculptor and even the computer programmer. Not the big companies. And the protection free (in most countries), no registration necessary.

If a little guy makes an invention, he can get patent protection for it. Granted, that cosst money. But consider a patent a kind of protection for your investment. Investment in R and D. Most R and D today is done by big companies, that's true.

Trademarks are a totally different kind of thing. A trademark is an indication as to the origin of the product, the origin meaning the manufacturer, service provider. etc. If the product bearing the trademark in fact comes from another manufacturer than the trademark owner, the public is deceived. So in fact, the trademark protection serves to protect the public.

A little education in these things wouldn't hurt, especially in Thailand, where there is practically no respect for Intellectual Property rights, from top (government) to bottom (street vendor).

[Johpa]

The bags in question show Mickey Mouse.

Mickey Mouse is an asset that belongs to the shareholders of Disney Corporation.

Who are the major shareholders of Disney?

Mutual fund investors on behalf of pension funds and individual investors.

Equal to, and perhaps greater than, the mutual fund investors are the hedge fund operators who represent the investments of the upper .5% of income earners. And these are the people who own the US congress, both Democrats as well as Republicans, and who caused the Bono Bill to be passed that prevented Mickey from falling into the public domain. You know that place, the public domain, where old Uncle Walt picked up at no cost toon characters such as Snow White and Cinderella.

I reckon there would be a rather minor dent put into Disney's earnings if Mickey went into the public domain as the law intended at the time many of the pension funds purchased shares. But it was never the intent that those same corporations could use their politcal-economic power to change the laws for their own personal profits at the expense of the larger public. Why should others not create and extrapolate and profit from Walt Disney's creation decades after his death just as Walt himself did from those two Danish brothers? Why should Eisner and a few retirees be the only ones to profit from something they had absolutely no connection to?

This is not a rant against IP protection, only against unreasonable extensions of IP protection to those who have no more skin into that property than you or I.

[TAWP]

IP Piracy is an imaginary crime purported by big corporations to squeeze out local competition and artificially keep prices up over a merchandise's actual value.

It is also built upon the fallacy that just because you once drew 2 mouse-ears anyone that draws mouse-ears of similar shape somehow are owing you money. Even if you made a new product and did all the work.

Copyright, patent and trademark laws are a joke that has and never will protect 'the little guy'.

With all due respect, that is complete nonsense.

Copyright is a protection afforded especially the little guy, the designer, the artist, the writer, the painter, the sculptor and even the computer programmer. Not the big companies. And the protection free (in most countries), no registration necessary.

If a little guy makes an invention, he can get patent protection for it. Granted, that cosst money. But consider a patent a kind of protection for your investment. Investment in R and D. Most R and D today is done by big companies, that's true.

Trademarks are a totally different kind of thing. A trademark is an indication as to the origin of the product, the origin meaning the manufacturer, service provider. etc. If the product bearing the trademark in fact comes from another manufacturer than the trademark owner, the public is deceived. So in fact, the trademark protection serves to protect the public.

A little education in these things wouldn't hurt, especially in Thailand, where there is practically no respect for Intellectual Property rights, from top (government) to bottom (street vendor).

With all due respect, I disagree and your defense of trademarks is humorous if nothing else.

Since debating copyright is a huge subject and it is off-topic to the news-event I will leave it be but hope we one day can return to it.

Patent laws are a joke and does not function to entice R&D in the scale as some would like to believe/hope. It does however work to make sure small companies - and I will here talk about the software industry as an example - are held in fear of larger companies grips as they file overly broad patents, sometimes with prior art already established and done in bad faith or by misusing especially the US patent office and filing submarine patents (even if this is done more by companies and individuals outside the core inventors themselves), and where a smaller company is unable to defend themselves against a larger companies claim - even when prior art exists - and often enter into licensing deals out of fear, therefor further strengthening the flawed patent in the companies next legal battle against a bigger competitor etc. This while large corporations go into mass-patent sharing to avoid these battles, licensing patents by the thousands to each-other at basically no cost. The overall effect is that the small guys are strangled.

And even with valid patents the larger companies can tie up an inventor for years and years to come, to avoid losing the court case or hope to drain out the inventors budget and kill them off, legally. See the case of Compaq, Gateway & HP vs Hakan Lans.

And lastly, as patents is an immaterial right and a monopoly granted by the government it is an unjust limit of my and your freedom to research and develop solutions or tools and use or sell them.

Trademarks is all the bad of patents with nothing of the good. That a gun manufacturer can prohibit a toy maker from making toy guns with the same look, or even closely to, by the power of law suits for trademark infringement is cute. Once again, a government issued monopoly that does nothing to help customers. You think people in general is clueless if a bag is manufactured by the 'real' factory or another factory using less quality fabric and selling it for 1/20 of the price? They know very well what they are buying. And anyone claiming to sell the 'better' more 'high quality' bad can already be handled by the civil courts as they defraud customers - it has nothing to do with Trademarks having to be protected. A kid will mistake his toy-gun for 100baht for the real one and sue the toy-maker since he cannot kill his class mates? I doubt it. It wasn't bought as if it was the real thing.

[dominique355]

IP Piracy is an imaginary crime purported by big corporations to squeeze out local competition and artificially keep prices up over a merchandise's actual value.

It is also built upon the fallacy that just because you once drew 2 mouse-ears anyone that draws mouse-ears of similar shape somehow are owing you money. Even if you made a new product and did all the work.

Copyright, patent and trademark laws are a joke that has and never will protect 'the little guy'.

With all due respect, that is complete nonsense.

Copyright is a protection afforded especially the little guy, the designer, the artist, the writer, the painter, the sculptor and even the computer programmer. Not the big companies. And the protection free (in most countries), no registration necessary.

If a little guy makes an invention, he can get patent protection for it. Granted, that cosst money. But consider a patent a kind of protection for your investment. Investment in R and D. Most R and D today is done by big companies, that's true.

Trademarks are a totally different kind of thing. A trademark is an indication as to the origin of the product, the origin meaning the manufacturer, service provider. etc. If the product bearing the trademark in fact comes from another manufacturer than the trademark owner, the public is deceived. So in fact, the trademark protection serves to protect the public.

A little education in these things wouldn't hurt, especially in Thailand, where there is practically no respect for Intellectual Property rights, from top (government) to bottom (street vendor).

With all due respect, I disagree and your defense of trademarks is humorous if nothing else.

Since debating copyright is a huge subject and it is off-topic to the news-event I will leave it be but hope we one day can return to it.

Patent laws are a joke and does not function to entice R&D in the scale as some would like to believe/hope. It does however work to make sure small companies - and I will here talk about the software industry as an example - are held in fear of larger companies grips as they file overly broad patents, sometimes with prior art already established and done in bad faith or by misusing especially the US patent office and filing submarine patents (even if this is done more by companies and individuals outside the core inventors themselves), and where a smaller company is unable to defend themselves against a larger companies claim - even when prior art exists - and often enter into licensing deals out of fear, therefor further strengthening the flawed patent in the companies next legal battle against a bigger competitor etc. This while large corporations go into mass-patent sharing to avoid these battles, licensing patents by the thousands to each-other at basically no cost. The overall effect is that the small guys are strangled.

And even with valid patents the larger companies can tie up an inventor for years and years to come, to avoid losing the court case or hope to drain out the inventors budget and kill them off, legally. See the case of Compaq, Gateway & HP vs Hakan Lans.

And lastly, as patents is an immaterial right and a monopoly granted by the government it is an unjust limit of my and your freedom to research and develop solutions or tools and use or sell them.

Trademarks is all the bad of patents with nothing of the good. That a gun manufacturer can prohibit a toy maker from making toy guns with the same look, or even closely to, by the power of law suits for trademark infringement is cute. Once again, a government issued monopoly that does nothing to help customers. You think people in general is clueless if a bag is manufactured by the 'real' factory or another factory using less quality fabric and selling it for 1/20 of the price? They know very well what they are buying. And anyone claiming to sell the 'better' more 'high quality' bad can already be handled by the civil courts as they defraud customers - it has nothing to do with Trademarks having to be protected. A kid will mistake his toy-gun for 100baht for the real one and sue the toy-maker since he cannot kill his class mates? I doubt it. It wasn't bought as if it was the real thing.

I have a lot to say about this and I do not agree with you on a fundamental basis, but I am too drunk now, I have just been out for a great dinner. So pleas wait until tomorrow morning for a half way consistent reply to this, OK?

Suffice to say for the moment that you confuse the legal and court system in USA with the protection of IP in the "civilized" world (sorry) and blame the IP protection for it. Til tomorrow.