Mekong River In Danger Of Becoming Chinese River

[bonobo]

What is the different between saying "The Mekong River in Danger of Becoming a Chinese River" and the Pacific or Atlantic becoming an American Pond?

China's dams on the Mekong could have an actual impact, environmental or water supply, on the other nations downstream from them.  American warships have no such impact on the Atlantic or Pacific nations.  The only impact is political and the potential of militarily.  Apples and oranges here.

[LaoPo]

Ok, back on topic.

The whole concept of the topic is ridiculous. As another poster's detailed map attachments show, the Mekong delta is massive. People would have you believe that 100% of the Mekong's water is sourced in China and those downriver are blessed with it.

It seems pretty obvious that the Mekong gets water sourced to it at many points throughout the basin. To suggest that Chinese dams would massively disrupt the flow is speculation.

The comparisions with the Colorado are also ridiculous. While the US dams have affected the flow through Mexico, the Colorado is hardly the massive delta like the Mississippi, Amazon and Mekong.

What I would be worried about it all the crap that the Chinese will dump into the Mekong. Then again, it has probably been happening for many decades already.

1. You're correct, the topic and title is ridiculous since the Mekong can't become a Chinese river -Lancang- since it's origin is already China, and as I showed in maps from the Mekong River Commission (not MY maps!) 84% of the Mekong water is coming from Myanmar 2%, Laos 36%, Thailand 18%, Cambodia 18% and Vietnam 11% but NOT from China which delivers only 16% of water flow into the Mekong when it enters Myanmar, Laos and later Thailand!

2. It's a "settled-in" WRONG thought that the China dams would disrupt the water flows from the Lancang river, later called Mekong. In fact it's quite simple.

If you build dams and let the river water flow into the lake, created by this dam, it will be full in a certain moment and only used for possible electricity usage and once used, the water flows into the river again.

After that the river will flow it's course again.

3. The MAJOR causes for a drying out Mekong river are the miss management of the countries involved: mainly Laos, Thailand, Cambodia and Vietnam and the DROUGHTS, caused by the decreasing glaciers in the Tibetan hemisphere due to the warming earth and climate and thus delivering less water into the Lancang river.

4. You don't have to worry about rubbish dump into the Lancang/Mekong river in China as the river is extremely clean, all along it's flow on Chinese soil and if there is rubbish before the dam-walls it will be cleaned and removed. Rubbish can't flow into the river on a large scale. If there would be rubbish, dumped in the river maybe have a look at the Lao and Thai people first ?

But, than again, the Lancang River is one of the world's major rivers but not, like in Laos and Thailand, a major TRANSPORT river since it runs mainly through deep gorges and steep mountains and not flat countryside. Apart from that is the narrow river size; it's not a wide river on China soil.

Flat countryside starts in certain parts of Laos and Thailand but not China.

5. I also don't understand the ever returning fuzz about dams in China whilst I seldom or never hear anybody about the Thai (and/or Laos/Cambodia) dams.

Is it known that there is a THAI major dam -the Pak Mun Dam, finished in 1994- just before entering the Mekong river which flows there on Laos' territory ?

That dam controls ALL waters from 2 major Thai rivers.

Never hear anybody about it and same-same about the Sayaboury Hydropower dam in Laos whereby The Electricity Generating Authority of Thailand (EGAT), read: Thai government, signed contracts to buy electricity in the future.

And...Gents...guess what ?

WHO builds and invests in that Sayaboury Hydropower Dam and who manages the construction and supervision....?

A Dam to be built upon an agreement between Cambodia, Laos,, Thailand and Vietnam....?

Guess....

Right: The Mekong River Commission.

The Ch. Karnchang Public Company Ltd of Thailand has the concession, funded by FOUR THAI BANKS!

The memorandum if understanding has just been signed, July 5th.

Hypocracy at it's finest.....Thai Hypocracy.

Anymore cookies someone ?

LaoPo

[brahmburgers]

1. You're correct, the topic and title is ridiculous since the Mekong can't become a Chinese river -Lancang- since it's origin is already China, and as I showed in maps from the Mekong River Commission (not MY maps!) 84% of the Mekong water is coming from Myanmar 2%, Laos 36%, Thailand 18%, Cambodia 18% and Vietnam 11% but NOT from China which delivers only 16% of water flow into the Mekong when it enters Myanmar, Laos and later Thailand!

2. It's a "settled-in" WRONG thought that the China dams would disrupt the water flows from the Lancang river, later called Mekong. In fact it's quite simple.

If you build dams and let the river water flow into the lake, created by this dam, it will be full in a certain moment and only used for possible electricity usage and once used, the water flows into the river again.

I think the map is faulty. It shows just a bit of yellow to depict the Chinese portion of the watershed (compared to a wide swath of green for the other countries downstream). The watershed for the first 3rd of the Mekong (in China and Tibet) must be larger than that yellow strip shown on the map. Is it a Chinese map? That could be suspect in itself. The Chinese are known to do and say all sorts of questionable things when trying to justify their 8 large dams on the upper part of the Mekong (4 already built, 4 more planned - one of which is the 2nd largest in Asia).

Also, does % of watershed = % of volume of water? I don't think so. A relatively small watershed could contribute a larger volume of water relative to its size. Plus, the upper Mekong has much steeper terrain, so, if spread out, would amount to greater area than it's map size indicates.

Environmentalists are saddened by developments. It's a lose lose scenario. Even if China didn't built the 4 additional dams it's planning, much damage to environment will take place. Chinese engineers are also busy blasting sections of the Mekong - downriver of its border - thereby further screwing with the natural environment. The Mekong is home to the giant catfish and the world's largest fresh water fish, the giant stingray. Not surprisingly, both will be extinct in a few years. And there are a plethora of other species which don't seem to matter to the people who discuss dam policy.

Asians in general, and Chinese in particular are dismal at environmental husbandry. Recently, a whole slew of endangered tigers starved to death at a Chinese city zoo. The list goes on.... Nearby, in Thailand, there are virtually no wild mammals in the whole country. Same for raptors, large birds and monkeys in all but a few little areas. I for one look forward to the time when there are a lot less homo sapiens trashing around - which will enable other species to slowly rejuvenate. Perhaps 1,000 years from now, our species will pare down to reasonable numbers, and another 1,000 years after that for some resurgence of natural habitat.

[LaoPo]

I think the map is faulty. It shows just a bit of yellow to depict the Chinese portion of the watershed (compared to a wide swath of green for the other countries downstream). The watershed for the first 3rd of the Mekong (in China and Tibet) must be larger than that yellow strip shown on the map. Is it a Chinese map? That could be suspect in itself. The Chinese are known to do and say all sorts of questionable things when trying to justify their 8 large dams on the upper part of the Mekong (4 already built, 4 more planned - one of which is the 2nd largest in Asia).

Also, does % of watershed = % of volume of water? I don't think so. A relatively small watershed could contribute a larger volume of water relative to its size. Plus, the upper Mekong has much steeper terrain, so, if spread out, would amount to greater area than it's map size indicates.

Environmentalists are saddened by developments. It's a lose lose scenario. Even if China didn't built the 4 additional dams it's planning, much damage to environment will take place. Chinese engineers are also busy blasting sections of the Mekong - downriver of its border - thereby further screwing with the natural environment. The Mekong is home to the giant catfish and the world's largest fresh water fish, the giant stingray. Not surprisingly, both will be extinct in a few years. And there are a plethora of other species which don't seem to matter to the people who discuss dam policy.

Asians in general, and Chinese in particular are dismal at environmental husbandry. Recently, a whole slew of endangered tigers starved to death at a Chinese city zoo. The list goes on.... Nearby, in Thailand, there are virtually no wild mammals in the whole country. Same for raptors, large birds and monkeys in all but a few little areas. I for one look forward to the time when there are a lot less homo sapiens trashing around - which will enable other species to slowly rejuvenate. Perhaps 1,000 years from now, our species will pare down to reasonable numbers, and another 1,000 years after that for some resurgence of natural habitat.

1. The map is NOT faulty.

The map is also NOT Chinese but as you can see for yourself, produced by the MRC -Mekong River Commission- based also in Bangkok but not in China.

The river Langcang/Mekong is for around 50% on Chinese soil (and not 1/3 as you wrote) and the rest divided by Myanmar (smallest part) Laos, Thailand, Cambodia and Vietnam.

The way you write (and many times wrote) is always anti-China and you show it over-and-over, even doubting maps who were made by the MRC.

Also: why are you questioning and arguing the Chinese dams and not a word from you about Thai, Laos' and Cambodian Dams ?

2. If you have any technical questions about % of watershed and % of water volume I suggest you study the enormous detailed website of the MRC:

http://www.mrcmekong.org/ which link I have provided many times already.

In case you have more questions, why not ask them since they are the specialists regarding the Mekong; I'm just an interested observer who spent a lot of time, studying the problems about the Langcang/Mekong and trying to steer reality and truth in a good direction and not biased like many posters are who blindly follow the sometimes blunt lies and wrong assumptions by media.

3. Are you saying that China is blasting sections of the Mekong -downriver of its border- ? Meaning that they would be acting on foreign soil ?(That could only be either in Myanmar or Laos - NOT Thailand) Do you have any links to prove that ?

I am aware that the Middle and Lower Mekong is home to not only the Giant Catfish or freshwater Stingray but to more than 1.200 different fish species BB, even likely more than 1.500!

But, you're poorly informed and/or self-educated since "In the Upper Mekong, the northern part of the river down to the Burma–Thai–Laos border, the river is relatively clear and fast flowing with the influx snowmelt guaranteeing a relatively uniform circumannual flow in the river." *

In the Upper Mekong Part (the Langcang river actually) there is no Giant Catfish or Stingray; it has a totally other habitat of fish species.

If you want to blame countries for influencing and/or destroying the environment of the Mekong, it's habitat and/or drying out, over-fishing habits.....start your complaints sending to the Laos', Thai and Cambodian/Vietnamese governments first and stop blaming and bashing upon China on an exclusive basis.

* http://en.wikipedia....ki/Mekong#Fauna

LaoPo

[brahmburgers]

I can agree that Thailand, Burma, Laos and Cambodia are part of the problem for the Mekong, along with China.

Perhaps Thailand and Laos stand out, compared to Burma and Cambodia.

Laopo didn't address the issue that, because of the steep terrain of the Chinese part of the watershed, there would be more square Km of land surface (than indicated on the map) - therefore, if the rainfall was similar intensity over the two areas (yellow and green), a greater proportion of rain would fall in the upper/yellow colored watershed - than the map would indicate. Does the map also account for glacier melt in the Himalayas?

I think we all can agree that, politically, China does what it wants in such matters. There is some window dressing re; a coalition of affected countries, but if China wants to continue building dams (8 planned for now, ....how many more for the future? .....20?) - China will do so, with barely a tip of the hat to the other affected countries. Same for release of water.

BTW, the amount of water which goes in to a reservoir, is not the amount which gets released later on. Two major factors: irrigation/other people uses, and evaporation. Evaporation (from upstream Chinese reservoirs) is particularly relevant during the driest months when cries of 'drought!' will be heard in many places downstream.

You can call me a China basher (that's ok), but am probably no more so than LaoPo is a Chinese booster. It evens out. The world needs China bashers, to try and balance out the insatiable appetitite of 1/4 of the world's population. I don't mean for regular food (rice, etc), I mean for endangered animal parts and for resources.

The Mekong is a giant resource, and China is using its heavyweight status to commandeer as much as it can.

And, if news reports are true, China is spearheading blasting of downstream areas of the river, in order to facilitate shipping - particularly during the times it is hoarding water upstream, and the river is dangerously low.

And just because the giant catfish and giant stingray aren't in Chinese parts of the river, doesn't mean Chinese officials should give their very existence a big Sino 'mai pen rai.'

[toybits]

Oh? I thought the Chinese were brought into Thailand to dig up the Canals?

Thanks god that Thailand did not mistreat the Thai-Chinese in the dark days.

You mean aside from burning down Chinatown shops in the 1930s?

I believe there was a little mistakes, but that's all.

The Chinese in Thailand are treated like king, and not at all discriminated at all. In fact, the Chinese were treated with prestige in the old days, hence they managed to incurred so much wealth that they now run Thailand, in term of economic, social as well as politically.

When was the last Thai PM that is not a Chinese? I have to go back so far, I lost count. Even Thailand's top man is half Chinese.

[toybits]

Did you see this overhaul38?

What is the different between saying "The Mekong River in Danger of Becoming a Chinese River" and the Pacific or Atlantic becoming an American Pond?

Sorry they have been controlled by the American Navy for years. Been there done that.

[LaoPo]

Laopo didn't address the issue that,........

I answered you in point 2 of my previous post.

Study the link I provided many times before; don't ask me for technical questions but the MRC.

http://www.mrcmekong.org/

LaoPo

[brahmburgers]

Today we're talking about the Mekong, but there's another big river which runs along a portion of Thailand's western border. Namely the Salween. That river is also being commandeered by the insatiable Chinese, with keen assistance from Burmese generals - who have no qualms about bulldozing in to forests and wiping out villages of the little people (Karen tribes and others) in the affected valleys and watersheds bordering the river.

Also; the comparative amount of water which feeds in to the Mekong from China can not be determined simply from looking at the comparative sizes of the map sections for another reason: Glacier melt.

Recent studies have shown that Himalayan glaciers are melting at greater rates than they're being replenished by new snowfall & ice formation. Therefore, some of the water from Tibet, is from ice that had been locked up in those mountain valleys from thousands of years earlier.

[bitterbatter]

This is truly sad news. I first went to Laos 5 years ago and it was like stepping back in time and the Mekhong was the reason. I had never travelled by river before. I got on a slow boat and made my way to the first small village, Pakbeng. Then, I stayed for 3 weeks and enjoyed the feeling of time stopping. I met an engineer there that said they were building a dam nearby. When I asked about more details, he explained that the World Bank had given them a loan to build the dam. They were stoked because they were going to get electricity and the main road paved. Before then, they had been running off of generators in different households and the main street was dirt. I knew then that this was a bad sign and warned him that having this kind of deal with the World Bank will only get you into their pockets, they will always take more then they give. Two years later I was up in Luang Nam Tha and met the head engineer building the road from China. His friends were busy bringing in machines so they make factories that would turn forests into furniture.

I haven't been back but I hear that the Mekong is half of its size from before. This is so incredibly sad. It has much more impact then just making it harder to grow rice! We are talking whole ecosystems!!!! This is one of the great rivers of the world or I should now say "was".

My heart is broken over this news. It just get worse and worse. I hate dams, always have and always will. I really pray they don't do anymore damage then already done!

[jombom]

The Chinese dams on the Mekong are for hydroelectric energy, with water storage only a minor consideration.

The rivers falls over 4000 metres along its length in China. This is fairly obvious from the map, which is very close to a straight line in China. Storing large quantities of water on a falling river like this is impractical, and probably uneconomic.

Once the river leaves China it starts to meander, and changes direction many times. To preserve the flowrate, the river widens, to compensate for the slower water speed.

[LaoPo]

1. ...but there's another big river which runs along a portion of Thailand's western border. Namely the Salween. That river is also being commandeered by the insatiable Chinese, with keen assistance from Burmese generals - who have no qualms about bulldozing in to forests and wiping out villages of the little people (Karen tribes and others) in the affected valleys and watersheds bordering the river.

2. Also; the comparative amount of water which feeds in to the Mekong from China can not be determined simply from looking at the comparative sizes of the map sections for another reason: Glacier melt.

3. Recent studies have shown that Himalayan glaciers are melting at greater rates than they're being replenished by new snowfall & ice formation. Therefore, some of the water from Tibet, is from ice that had been locked up in those mountain valleys from thousands of years earlier.

Your anti-China rants are continuing, aren't they ?

1.You change the subject from Mekong to Salween River but OK.....and write about the Salween river and that "the insatiable Chinese are commandeering this river with the assistance of Burmese generals ?"

The Salween River is barely touching Thailand and only for a VERY small part. The river runs for it's major part on Chinese soil and the rest on Myanmars' soil:

A large-scale hydropower plant is being planned for the Salween River basin. WWF calls on the world's governments to recommit to the protection of the last free-flowing rivers. (Credit: Image courtesy of World Wildlife Fund)

Yet, you start bashing upon China again. Of course there is SO much to bash upon in China that your list of subjects is probably endless, but, staying on "your" Salween- River topic:

Read this:

"

New Dam Threatens People And Environment In Myanmar

ScienceDaily (Apr. 16, 2007) — A deal signed between Thailand and Myanmar would clear the way for the first large-scale hydropower plant on the Salween River in north-eastern Myanmar. The project could displace and negatively impact upon tens of thousands of poor and marginalized people from ethnic minorities in that country, warns WWF.

http://www.scienceda...70415115956.htm

..Do YOU know who initiated this large-scale hydropower plant/dam since it's of no interest -other than money- to Myanmar and it's generals pockets BB ?

Maybe you should start digging in Bangkok ?:

"This month (september 2006 - LP), Thailand's state-run monopoly EGAT finally formalized its long-pending plans to build five hydroelectric dams along the Salween River inside Myanmar. An EGAT spokesman said previous plans for the study were finally abandoned to avoid meddling in Myanmar's internal affairs."

http://www.worldprou...the_salwee.html

Anything else to say about China BB ?

2. So: you're saying that the MRC is lying with their studies, maps and facts? Why don't you talk to them instead filtering your unproven messages on this board ? First you claim that my map was probably from China (and thus not worth a thing) but when I told you it was a map from MRC - Bangkok you are going to deny their facts.

3. Indeed; melting glaciers; and of course the Langcang/Mekong river has it's origin on the plateau. Also China's fault, simply because they are on their territory ?

Is it also China's fault that the glaciers are now melting at a scary speed because of the climate changes ?

What about the horrible scenario that the glaciers are gone one day.....? Are you standing on the barricades to blame the Chinese again....or ourselves, or the Thai, Lao, Cambodian, Vietnamese (for not doing enough to manage their waters on their ow soil)..... creating this (hopefully never to be) disaster ?

Take off your one-sided glasses and be(come) fair.

Thailand has 33 large dams and 37 medium-sized dams but not a word about those from your pen.

Check your facts before you write.

LaoPo