Ninth 9/11 Anniversary Marked By Controversy As Relatives Gather

[OzMick]

seriously dude ? you didn't feel it was too early in the morning to be posting the craziness ? because what you said is simply not true. translations of the quran are everywhere, easily accessible:

http://quran.com/

when you say 'muslims believe' you are speaking for 1.5 billion people. i'm guessing they don't all think the translation they have in their hand is inaccurate. im guessing they don't all think the illustrations in it are literal. im guessing that the inventors of algebra would take offense at your suggestion they knew SFA.

anyway, what you say about their book can quite easily be said of all holy books. the bible was for the most part written in hebrew. do i need to learn that too ? if i did, do i also need to believe moses actually parted the red sea with his stick, or lazarus was raised from the dead ?

I on the other hand don't take offense at other's ignorance. Please read the attached quote; it's only Wiki, but good enough for a fast reference:

"Translation of the Quran has always been a problematic and difficult issue in Islamic theology. Since Muslims revere the Qur'an as miraculous and inimitable (i'jaz al-Qur'an), they argue that the Qur'anic text can not be reproduced in another language or form. Furthermore, an Arabic word may have a range of meanings depending on the context, making an accurate translation even more difficult.^[1]

According to modern Islamic theology, the Qur'an is a revelation very specifically in Arabic, and so it should only be recited in the Arabic language. Translations into other languages are necessarily the work of humans and so, according to Muslims, no longer possess the uniquely sacred character of the Arabic original. Since these translations necessarily subtly change the meaning, they are often called "interpretations."^[3] For instance, Pickthall called his translation The Meaning of the Glorious Koran rather than simply The Koran."

And I stand by my statement that the erudite scholars of 1400 and 2000 years ago were relatively ignorant. A high school student today has more knowledge, and vastly more reference material. You state that in your belief part of the holy books are untrue, i believe that nearly all of it is crap.

thanks. your second argument first. every "erudite scholars of 1400 and 2000 years ago were relatively ignorant", no matter what their religion. it is a moot point and may be wholly ignored, but citing it in your original post the way you did, only served to cast bias.

which leads to your original point. (thanks for the reference btw, it was a good read) in answer to a question on the contents of the quran, you said "To read the Koran you would have to learn Arabic, as Muslims believe that it is the literal word of god and any translation would be prone to error". this is not correct. you may read the quran in any number of languages. indonesia is the largest muslim population on the planet, how many do you think speak arabic ? by saying "Muslims believe" you disenfranchise the majority.

your wikipedia link is to a philosophical question that scholars debate. no one owns the quran. any comments by theologians should be seen for what they are, opinion. i will also point out, there is the same article on wikipedia held for the bible.

I know that translations are freely available, but are not recognized by the hierachy of the faith. I also know that many muslim students are required to learn the koran by rote, in arabic, in muslim countries such as Indonesia and in Thailand. These students spend so much of their time learning this, then find themselves unqualified for employment - becoming fuel for Islamic radicalism. There is a reason muslim radicals target teachers in southern Thailand, they fear that students with a better, religion free, education will abandon their religion, as is common in every part of the world.

My original post was not biased re Islam; that was the subject of discussion. I reject all religion. I m stating that any writing written by more than 20 years ago should be regarded with a respect to the level of knowledge and the prejudices of the time, and that the Koran and Bible hold little relevance today.

[tomyummer]

Which would be one reason to burn the book of lies.

I might burn one now.....( not the book)

I just noticed that if you're signed in you get to see the pictures with the article! Anyway, how can a person comment on a book they have never read? Has someone out there read the Koran? Is it a primer for terrorism that needs to have it's contents explained away with double talk.... OR NOT??????? Is it a book of peace and love, or a rulebook for war and killing? This question pertains to the article in that the article stated there was ill feeling about a Mosque being built too close to the Twin Towers site. Why was there ill feeling? What difference does/did it make what religion the hijackers were? I don't have a copy. I'd like to know. Let's hear it. Maybe some illustrative quotes from a widely accepted translation....? Educate me. (For free, of course!)

First a disclaimer: I'm not a Muslim, claim to be an authority of the Qur'an/Koran, hate Muslims (a little intimidated, maybe), nor endorse anything posted below. Whew.

Now, with a little magic of quick search and credit to http://infidelsareco...mads-own-words/ :

Qur'an:9:88 – "The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah's Cause."

Qur'an:9:5 - "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

Qur'an:9:112 "The Believers fight in Allah's Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed."

Qur'an:9:29 "Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission."

Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."

Qur'an:8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."

Ishaq:587 "Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have mutilated every opponent. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them, for they must suffer disgrace."

Qur'an:8:65 "O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding."

Qur'an:9:123 "Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you."

Ishaq:578 "Crushing the heads of the infidels and splitting their skulls with sharp swords, we continually thrust and cut at the enemy. Blood gushed from their deep wounds as the battle wore them down. We conquered bearing the Prophet's fluttering war banner. Our cavalry was submerged in rising dust, and our spears quivered, but by us the Prophet gained victory."

I didn't even get to the part about the 72 Houris (virgins) and 28 young pre-pubescent boys you're given by the Great One.

That just about does it for me!

I think ignorance certifcates should be issued to some of the people posting on this forum, perhaps I could take a wild guess at your nationality

What does this poster's nationality have to do with the validity or non-validity of his post? Truth is truth, whether spoken by God or the Devil. Same with lies. You need to separate the discussion topic from your preconceived prejudices.

Thank you. I was just posting to what Longtooth wanted to know. I didn't make the stuff up. I'm not a science fiction writer. I even posted the source. Every educated person knows the majority of Muslims don't take it to the extreme, but apparently some do. Same could be said for the Christians too, so I'm not sticking it just one religion bub. And I wonder 'what nationality' does mmh8 think I am?! Get it right and I'll send a free Koran.

[Jingthing]

Back to the 9-11 topic. Bin Laden didn't win on 9-11 but America in its ridiculous and ill conceived OVERREACTION since then has basically given him a win.

Ted Koppel: Nine years after 9/11, let's stop playing into bin Laden's hands

The attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, succeeded far beyond anything Osama bin Laden could possibly have envisioned. This is not just because they resulted in nearly 3,000 deaths, nor only because they struck at the heart of American financial and military power. Those outcomes were only the bait; it would remain for the United States to spring the trap.

The goal of any organized terrorist attack is to goad a vastly more powerful enemy into an excessive response. And over the past nine years, the United States has blundered into the 9/11 snare with one overreaction after another. Bin Laden deserves to be the object of our hostility, national anguish and contempt, and he deserves to be taken seriously as a canny tactician. But much of what he has achieved we have done, and continue to do, to ourselves. Bin Laden does not deserve that we, even inadvertently, fulfill so many of his unimagined dreams.

...

Could bin Laden, in his wildest imaginings, have hoped to provoke greater chaos? It is past time to reflect on what our enemy sought, and still seeks, to accomplish -- and how we have accommodated him.

A must read article on the topic --

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/09/AR2010090904735.html

Edited September 12, 2010 by Jingthing

[JohnLeech]

(see above for quoted posts)

Thank you. I was just posting to what Longtooth wanted to know. I didn't make the stuff up. I'm not a science fiction writer. I even posted the source. Every educated person knows the majority of Muslims don't take it to the extreme, but apparently some do. Same could be said for the Christians too, so I'm not sticking it just one religion bub. And I wonder 'what nationality' does mmh8 think I am?! Get it right and I'll send a free Koran.

The same could indeed be said about Christianity and any Bible-based religion. Try the following, for example (there are plenty more!):

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10)

This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.' (1 Samuel 15:2-3)

Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told. (Ezekiel 9:5-7)

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword. For I have come to set a man 'against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one's enemies will be those of his househol". (Matthew 10:34-36 )

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12)

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 )

If your enemy be hungry, give him food to eat, if he be thirsty, give him to drink; For live coals you will heap on his head, and the Lord will vindicate you. (Proverbs 25:21-22)

One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 )

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you. But these instructions apply only to distant towns, not to the towns of nations nearby. "As for the towns of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as a special possession, destroy every living thing in them. You must completely destroy the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, just as the LORD your God has commanded you. This will keep the people of the land from teaching you their detestable customs in the worship of their gods, which would cause you to sin deeply against the LORD your God. (Deuteronomy 20:10-18 )

About the same time I realized that some of the men of Judah had married women from Ashdod, Ammon, and Moab. Even worse, half their children spoke in the language of Ashdod or some other people and could not speak the language of Judah at all. So I confronted them and called down curses on them. I beat some of them and pulled out their hair. I made them swear before God that they would not let their children intermarry with the pagan people of the land. "Wasn't this exactly what led King Solomon of Israel into sin?" I demanded. "There was no king from any nation who could compare to him, and God loved him and made him king over all Israel. But even he was led into sin by his foreign wives. How could you even think of committing this sinful deed and acting unfaithfully toward God by marrying foreign women? (Nehemiah 13:23-27 )

Then the LORD said to Moses, "Tell Aaron that in all future generations, his descendants who have physical defects will not qualify to offer food to their God. No one who has a defect may come near to me, whether he is blind or lame, stunted or deformed, or has a broken foot or hand, or has a humped back or is a dwarf, or has a defective eye, or has oozing sores or scabs on his skin, or has damaged testicles. Even though he is a descendant of Aaron, his physical defects disqualify him from presenting offerings to the LORD by fire. Since he has a blemish, he may not offer food to his God. However, he may eat from the food offered to God, including the holy offerings and the most holy offerings. Yet because of his physical defect, he must never go behind the inner curtain or come near the altar, for this would desecrate my holy places. I am the LORD who makes them holy." (Leviticus 21:16-23)

On six days work may be done, but the seventh day shall be sacred to you as the Sabbath of complete rest to the Lord. Anyone who does work on that day, shall be put to death. You shall not even light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day. (Exodus 35:2-3 )

Moses stood at the entrance to the camp and shouted, "All of you who are on the LORD's side, come over here and join me." And all the Levites came. He told them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Strap on your swords! Go back and forth from one end of the camp to the other, killing even your brothers, friends, and neighbors." The Levites obeyed Moses, and about three thousand people died that day. Then Moses told the Levites, "Today you have been ordained for the service of the LORD, for you obeyed him even though it meant killing your own sons and brothers. Because of this, he will now give you a great blessing." (Exodus 32:26-29 )

Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5)

Look now; I myself am he! There is no god other than me! I am the one who kills and gives life; I am the one who wounds and heals; no one delivers from my power! Now I raise my hand to heaven and declare, "As surely as I live, when I sharpen my flashing sword and begin to carry out justice, I will bring vengeance on my enemies and repay those who hate me. I will make my arrows drunk with blood, and my sword will devour flesh – the blood of the slaughtered and the captives, and the heads of the enemy leaders."' "Rejoice with him, O heavens, and let all the angels of God worship him, for he will avenge the blood of his servants. He will take vengeance on his enemies and cleanse his land and his people." (Deuteronomy 32:39-43)

Edited September 12, 2010 by JohnLeech

[endure]

All Muslims are not terrorists..........but all terrorists are Muslims and IRA, ETA, Timothy Mcveigh, the Bader Meinhof gang, the Unabomber and etc, etc....

But only one out of that group scares me personally.....but that is just my opinion.

I have some very good friends who are Muslim, and nicer guys you will not find, but I hold them and every peace loving Muslim accountable for what is being perpetrated on the world by fanatics who use Islam/Allah to spread terror. The only thing that makes sense is that the peaceable ones are turning a blind eye to the terrorist acts. If you know that a criminal act is going to take place and you do nothing about it, then you are as guilty as the guy who pulls the trigger.

Do you hold the world's Catholics accountable for the deeds of the IRA? Do you hold the population of Germany accountable for the actions of the Bader-Meinhoff gang?

Why are you assuming that peaceable Muslims know that a criminal act is about to take place any more than you do? Is there some sort of bush telegraph that tells every innocent Muslim on the planet when a terrorist loon is about to blow himself up?

The only thing that makes sense is that the vast majority of Muslims have no more idea when an atrocity is about to occur than you or I do and thus can do exactly what you or I can do about it - nothing.

[CDNinKS]

Do you hold the world's Catholics accountable for the deeds of the IRA

No......only the Irish Catholics

If you for one minute don't think that these Muslim terrorists attend mosques where peaceful people go to pray, and at least some of these people don't know who the perpetrators are, you are living in a dream world.....

[VegasVic]

Whatever your feelings of who was responsible for 9/11, whether you believe it was a conspiracy of 19 Arab hijackers with box cutters or whether you believe it was a conspiracy at the highest levels of the US government, everyone should be able to agree that it was not an act representative of nor supported by the vast majority of Muslims around the globe.

The planned burning of the Koran and the protests of a building mosque nearby is simply shameful, and plays right into the hands of whoever orchestrated the 9/11 tragedy.

It is a shame that we, the American people, can not even come to agreement on that which should be obvious. Blind hatred of innocent Muslims is not the answer to what ails America. The truth is something far, far closer to home, and much more personal.

This was a tragedy that affected all of us around the world, no matter our nationality, country of residence or political persuasion. My heart goes out to the families of the victims whose lives were cut short for no good reason, and hope that one day they get the justice they so desperately deserve. It is too bad this day of remembrance should be disrupted by controversy.

"weather you believe it was a conspiracy of 19 Arab hijackers with box cutters or weather you belive it was a conspiracy at the highest levels of the U.S. government"(you can't be serious?) Your ignorance of the facts and science of 9/11 are abundantly clear in your opening statement, just as your ignorance of what "we the American people can not come to agreement on" is! The vast majority of Americans were (and are still) overly tolerant and sympathetic to people of the muslim faith in the wake of 9/11, that there would not be retribution against any innocent muslims on American soil. As far as building the mosque in the shadow of the twin towers goes, as long as the property is zoned by the city of NY for such purposes it should go right ahead and be built just as any synagogue, christian church or hindu or buddist temple would have the right to be built on that lot, and the mayor of NY came out a few days ago and made a speech to that effect and the mosque will be built on that site. As far as some lunatic fundamentalist christian leader in Florida burning some Korans goes, he has has the same right to do that as the muslim group has to build that mosque near ground zero. Currently the freedoms that protect both the mosque builders and the book burners are still intact in America(thank God!), there are those in the current governmental regime including the President that would like to severely limit those freedoms, as of yet they have been largely unsuccessful and after the elctions this November their window of opportunity to try and enact radical left wing (progressive) legislation will come to an abrupt halt. What is really sad on this day of rememberance is that you would choose to grossly distort how the vast majority of the American people feel about everyday muslims and that you would choose to inject your ignorant conspiracy theories that only add insult to injury to the American people. I dearly hope that you are an expat who intends on living out his life overseas, because America does not need any more left wing conspiracy nut cases like youeself just as it does not need any more intolerant right wing nut cases. Sadly the idiots at both extremes seem to get the press while the other 90%+ of Americans just try to go on and lead decent lives and ignore the 10% that constantly seem to put the U.S. in a bad light. I have served to protect the rights that those 10% have to voice their ignorance and show their stupidity and would do so again, not because I agree with or like what the 10% have to say, but because I love the ideas and ideals for which it stands. I pray that the people in that congregation in Florida do not choose to burn those Korans, but if they do I certainly hope that there are not any left wing nuts that confront them to try and stop them with force, likewise I would hope that the muslim group building that mosque will have the sense to build it elsewhere out of the shadow of the old twin towers, however if they do choose to build it there then I hope that they are not hindered or threatened by any right wing nuts.

[Jingthing]

I'd like them to move the mosque site CLOSER to the twin towers site. The current planned site really isn't very close at all. Why not a big old mosque right on the site? I would also like to see an ATHEIST community center, again, right on the site. What's the problem? Muslims are as American as everyone else. dam_n the bigots! Do not cave in. The USA is experiencing the most severe economic downturn since the great depression and the country is fixated on this absurd vile hysterical Islamophobia? Our enemies are laughing at us now.

Edited September 12, 2010 by Jingthing

[VegasVic]

Do you hold the world's Catholics accountable for the deeds of the IRA

No......only the Irish Catholics

If you for one minute don't think that these Muslim terrorists attend mosques where peaceful people go to pray, and at least some of these people don't know who the perpetrators are, you are living in a dream world.....

If you really want to be even handed then also condem those Northern Irish protestants who attended services with the terrorist Rev. Ian Paisley and the thugs of the R.U.C.!

[endure]

Do you hold the world's Catholics accountable for the deeds of the IRA

No......only the Irish Catholics

So you're saying that all Irish Catholics knew, approved of and concealed their knowledge of the actions of the IRA?

[endure]

Do you hold the world's Catholics accountable for the deeds of the IRA

No......only the Irish Catholics

If you for one minute don't think that these Muslim terrorists attend mosques where peaceful people go to pray, and at least some of these people don't know who the perpetrators are, you are living in a dream world.....

By definition the people in those mosques who know who the perpetrators are are not peaceful people. By all means blame those who are responsible for atrocities but don't try and blame everyone who happens to be Muslim.

[siampolee]

I quote the passages below as in my view they explain and inform in a somewhat more peaceful way how the Americans and indeed the people of this world irrespective of religious on non religious view should handle the situation.

9/11: The Rest Should Be Silence

by Michael Winship.

This past Sunday was beautiful, bright and warm, not unlike the sky blue day when those two airliners hit the World Trade Center in 2001, just a mile or so from where I live. That day, a Tuesday, was a bit hotter, a bit more humid, yet just as sunny and promising.

But this Sunday morning’s silence was broken by the sound of a bell and a small, organized crowd of friendly people chatting quietly among themselves, walking south down Seventh Avenue, the street that runs beneath my apartment windows, escorted by police and fire vehicles. With a prompt from the news on my radio, I remembered that this was an event that now takes place every year on the Sunday before the anniversary of 9/11.

The people walk in memory of Father Mychal Judge, the Franciscan priest who died at the World Trade Center, the attack’s first officially recorded death, designated Victim 0001. Chaplain for the New York City Fire Department, Father Judge had rushed to the disaster scene, delivered last rites to the dying, then gone inside the lobby of the north tower, praying for all those at Ground Zero but especially for his friends, the firefighters.

"Jesus, please end this right now! God, please end this!" he was heard to exclaim. And then the south tower collapsed. Debris came crashing through the north lobby. Father was struck and fell, dead – “blunt force trauma to the head,” the coroner’s report read.

It would be foolish to pretend to know what Father Judge would make of the controversy over Cordoba House, the proposed Islamic center downtown a couple of blocks from Ground Zero, but there may be a clue in the words of the homily he delivered just the day before 9/11. "No matter how big the call, no matter how small, you have no idea what God is calling you to do," he said. "But God needs you, He needs me, He needs all of us."

All of us. Not just Christians or Jews, but Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, agnostics, atheists, the right, the left, everyone. Father Judge himself was both gay and a recovering alcoholic, struggles that gave him particular insight into the plight of all too many misunderstood souls working to make their capacity for love, compassion and courage known and accepted as equal to anyone else’s.

So all of us have a role to play and none of them should involve inflaming hatred and prejudice among us, none of them should involve violating the rights of others or considering oneself superior to another or burning the scripture of those the ignorant and opportunistic want us to believe are evil or unholy.

Writing in Wednesday’s New York Times, Feisal Abdul Rauf, chair of the effort to build Cordoba House and imam of the Farah mosque already in lower Manhattan, said, "These efforts by radicals at distortion endanger our national security and the personal security of Americans worldwide. This is why Americans must not back away from completion of this project. If we do, we cede the discourse and, essentially, our future to radicals on both sides. The paradigm of a clash between the West and the Muslim world will continue, as it has in recent decades at terrible cost. It is a paradigm we must shift."

Just returned from two months in the Middle East on behalf of the State Department, seeking conciliation between Muslims and other religions, Rauf continued, "Let us commemorate the anniversary of 9/11 by pausing to reflect and meditate and tone down the vitriol and rhetoric that serves only to strengthen the radicals and weaken our friends’ belief in our values."

Reflect and meditate in silence, please. Many have urged that September 11 this year not be a time of demonstrations for or against Cordoba House or any other issue; rather, let it be a quiet day of commemoration and mourning.

The last time I attended the September 11 ceremonies at Ground Zero, on the fifth anniversary in 2006, as the names of the dead were read, solemn tranquility was disrupted and disrespected by those who tried to use the occasion to draw attention to themselves, crassly intruding with their conspiracy theories and raucous agendas.

And quiet, please, not only because it is a mark of respect for the deceased and their friends and families, but also because it is the sound of silence that many New Yorkers find so evocative of those days just after the attacks. Our streets closed to regular traffic, patrolled by police and the National Guard, we wandered in mute disbelief at what had happened, at the enormity of our loss. Even the emergency vehicles that raced along the empty streets did so without their sirens. We murmured softly amongst ourselves, looking for answers as many of our fellow citizens still searched for news of their missing loved ones.

Let our loss be what we remember on Saturday. That, and the words of St. Francis of Assisi, founder of the order of friars to which Father Mychal Judge devoted himself: "Lord, make me an instrument of your peace; where there is hatred, let me sow love; where there is injury, pardon; where there is doubt, faith; where there is despair, hope; where there is darkness, light; and where there is sadness, joy."

Michael Winship is senior writer at Public Affairs Television in New York City.

[VegasVic]

I'd like them to move the mosque site CLOSER to the twin towers site. The current planned site really isn't very close at all. Why not a big old mosque right on the site? I would also like to see an ATHEIST community center, again, right on the site. What's the problem? Muslims are as American as everyone else. dam_n the bigots! Do not cave in. The USA is experiencing the most severe economic downturn since the great depression and the country is fixated on this absurd vile hysterical Islamophobia? Our enemies are laughing at us now.

As long as the property is zoned for a religious building it can be built, end of discussion, or at least the end of the legal discusssion. The people who oppose the building of the mosque also have the right to protest their feelings in an organized fashion, lets just hope that violence does not errupt on either side. Thats the great thing about freedom, it moves in both directions, intolerance on the other hand can be found (and more than often is found) in countries without many freedoms, until someone finds a way to change human DNA I am afraid that we will have a certain ammount of people who are intolerant all around the globe!

[jackr]

The sooner we move away from all religion and start focusing on people as a whole and, more importantly, our planet which is pretty bleedin special, the better. If not, it'll be the death of us. If there were a god, the creator of everything, do people really think he would have one frigging iota of interest in us! He'd be a supreme mathematician/scientist with a lust for quantum mechanics and the like, not into listening to our petty bs on how we have sinned or, more to the point, correctly ascertaining what he was purported to have said to one deranged man. In all likelihood he didn't/doesn't even have a voice. For the non-divine folk (including myself), we're a bunch of very fortunate creatures grown out of a soup of sludge that ultimately came about by the banging about of membranes and a big bang from a false vacuum. If there is a god, then great, we'll probably meet him later and can then ask questions, or not. But how about just realising our great fortune in the now and lets move forward for Pete's sake, not fight each other over petty, puerile (made-up) crap.

[electau]

From Australia.

http://www.brisbanet...0913-157ao.html

Some points for further discussion.

What has it got to do with Thailand?

Did US domestic and foreign policy indirectly cause the incidents on 11th September 2001?

What is there to celebrate? But it makes Bin Laden franchises more popular. Why do people worship the dead?

It is the living and the maimed that need help not the dead. Praying will not help you, the attack was carried out by men, who were Saudis using US aircraft on US soil. To me a dead Christian is the same as a dead Jew or Muslim, they are dead. Get over it - Now!

And after 9 years the US has still not captured Bin Laden. Or is he dead and just will not lie down? Or do they not want to find him ?

What upset the US was the attack on the Pentagon and this was the serious attack on the Goverment of the US. It was this that justified the retaliation on Afganistan.

"Carry on up the Kyber" As as far as one is concerned they can take their "Koran" and shove it right up their Kyber Pass.

If they want to build a Mosque why not in the UN building ?

Edited September 13, 2010 by electau

[geriatrickid]

It is unfortunate that the arguments over the community center proposed for the location have detracted from a respectful day of memory of the 9/11 victims. One of my former colleagues died on that day. I don't think he would have cared one way or the other about the construction of a community center. Considering the fact that several muslims were murdered on that fateful day (yes, there were muslims working in the building) and that the people proposing the community center project wish to relocate from their location which is 10 blocks from ground zero because it is over crowded it seems that people's' emotions are being manipulated for political ends..

Edited September 13, 2010 by geriatrickid

[Pakboong]

Whatever your feelings of who was responsible for 9/11, whether you believe it was a conspiracy of 19 Arab hijackers with box cutters or whether you believe it was a conspiracy at the highest levels of the US government, everyone should be able to agree that it was not an act representative of nor supported by the vast majority of Muslims around the globe.

The planned burning of the Koran and the protests of a building mosque nearby is simply shameful, and plays right into the hands of whoever orchestrated the 9/11 tragedy.

It is a shame that we, the American people, can not even come to agreement on that which should be obvious. Blind hatred of innocent Muslims is not the answer to what ails America. The truth is something far, far closer to home, and much more personal.

This was a tragedy that affected all of us around the world, no matter our nationality, country of residence or political persuasion. My heart goes out to the families of the victims whose lives were cut short for no good reason, and hope that one day they get the justice they so desperately deserve. It is too bad this day of remembrance should be disrupted by controversy.

"weather you believe it was a conspiracy of 19 Arab hijackers with box cutters or weather you belive it was a conspiracy at the highest levels of the U.S. government"(you can't be serious?) Your ignorance of the facts and science of 9/11 are abundantly clear in your opening statement, just as your ignorance of what "we the American people can not come to agreement on" is! The vast majority of Americans were (and are still) overly tolerant and sympathetic to people of the muslim faith in the wake of 9/11, that there would not be retribution against any innocent muslims on American soil. As far as building the mosque in the shadow of the twin towers goes, as long as the property is zoned by the city of NY for such purposes it should go right ahead and be built just as any synagogue, christian church or hindu or buddist temple would have the right to be built on that lot, and the mayor of NY came out a few days ago and made a speech to that effect and the mosque will be built on that site. As far as some lunatic fundamentalist christian leader in Florida burning some Korans goes, he has has the same right to do that as the muslim group has to build that mosque near ground zero. Currently the freedoms that protect both the mosque builders and the book burners are still intact in America(thank God!), there are those in the current governmental regime including the President that would like to severely limit those freedoms, as of yet they have been largely unsuccessful and after the elctions this November their window of opportunity to try and enact radical left wing (progressive) legislation will come to an abrupt halt. What is really sad on this day of rememberance is that you would choose to grossly distort how the vast majority of the American people feel about everyday muslims and that you would choose to inject your ignorant conspiracy theories that only add insult to injury to the American people. I dearly hope that you are an expat who intends on living out his life overseas, because America does not need any more left wing conspiracy nut cases like youeself just as it does not need any more intolerant right wing nut cases. Sadly the idiots at both extremes seem to get the press while the other 90%+ of Americans just try to go on and lead decent lives and ignore the 10% that constantly seem to put the U.S. in a bad light. I have served to protect the rights that those 10% have to voice their ignorance and show their stupidity and would do so again, not because I agree with or like what the 10% have to say, but because I love the ideas and ideals for which it stands. I pray that the people in that congregation in Florida do not choose to burn those Korans, but if they do I certainly hope that there are not any left wing nuts that confront them to try and stop them with force, likewise I would hope that the muslim group building that mosque will have the sense to build it elsewhere out of the shadow of the old twin towers, however if they do choose to build it there then I hope that they are not hindered or threatened by any right wing nuts.

Interestingly, there was a Muslim prayer room on, if I recall correctly, the 15th floor of WTC1.

[Pakboong]

Whatever your feelings of who was responsible for 9/11, whether you believe it was a conspiracy of 19 Arab hijackers with box cutters or whether you believe it was a conspiracy at the highest levels of the US government, everyone should be able to agree that it was not an act representative of nor supported by the vast majority of Muslims around the globe.

The planned burning of the Koran and the protests of a building mosque nearby is simply shameful, and plays right into the hands of whoever orchestrated the 9/11 tragedy.

It is a shame that we, the American people, can not even come to agreement on that which should be obvious. Blind hatred of innocent Muslims is not the answer to what ails America. The truth is something far, far closer to home, and much more personal.

This was a tragedy that affected all of us around the world, no matter our nationality, country of residence or political persuasion. My heart goes out to the families of the victims whose lives were cut short for no good reason, and hope that one day they get the justice they so desperately deserve. It is too bad this day of remembrance should be disrupted by controversy.

"weather you believe it was a conspiracy of 19 Arab hijackers with box cutters or weather you belive it was a conspiracy at the highest levels of the U.S. government"(you can't be serious?) Your ignorance of the facts and science of 9/11 are abundantly clear in your opening statement, just as your ignorance of what "we the American people can not come to agreement on" is! The vast majority of Americans were (and are still) overly tolerant and sympathetic to people of the muslim faith in the wake of 9/11, that there would not be retribution against any innocent muslims on American soil. As far as building the mosque in the shadow of the twin towers goes, as long as the property is zoned by the city of NY for such purposes it should go right ahead and be built just as any synagogue, christian church or hindu or buddist temple would have the right to be built on that lot, and the mayor of NY came out a few days ago and made a speech to that effect and the mosque will be built on that site. As far as some lunatic fundamentalist christian leader in Florida burning some Korans goes, he has has the same right to do that as the muslim group has to build that mosque near ground zero. Currently the freedoms that protect both the mosque builders and the book burners are still intact in America(thank God!), there are those in the current governmental regime including the President that would like to severely limit those freedoms, as of yet they have been largely unsuccessful and after the elctions this November their window of opportunity to try and enact radical left wing (progressive) legislation will come to an abrupt halt. What is really sad on this day of rememberance is that you would choose to grossly distort how the vast majority of the American people feel about everyday muslims and that you would choose to inject your ignorant conspiracy theories that only add insult to injury to the American people. I dearly hope that you are an expat who intends on living out his life overseas, because America does not need any more left wing conspiracy nut cases like youeself just as it does not need any more intolerant right wing nut cases. Sadly the idiots at both extremes seem to get the press while the other 90%+ of Americans just try to go on and lead decent lives and ignore the 10% that constantly seem to put the U.S. in a bad light. I have served to protect the rights that those 10% have to voice their ignorance and show their stupidity and would do so again, not because I agree with or like what the 10% have to say, but because I love the ideas and ideals for which it stands. I pray that the people in that congregation in Florida do not choose to burn those Korans, but if they do I certainly hope that there are not any left wing nuts that confront them to try and stop them with force, likewise I would hope that the muslim group building that mosque will have the sense to build it elsewhere out of the shadow of the old twin towers, however if they do choose to build it there then I hope that they are not hindered or threatened by any right wing nuts.

While I agree with most of your post, I do have a question regarding patriotism being blind(my words and emphasis). I would suggest we have a patriotic duty to question those things that are at conflict with the absolute laws of physical science. It is the duty of the governing body to explain the discrepancies to the satisfaction of the patriots.

We learned from the Nurnberg trials of 1946 that it is not okay to sit by and do or think nothing when things seem a bit odd especially when so many human lives are at stake.

[rubl]

We learned from the Nurnberg trials of 1946 that it is not okay to sit by and do or think nothing when things seem a bit odd especially when so many human lives are at stake.

We learned many years after the Tokyo Trial was concluded that the lesson learned at Nurnberg had been promptly forgotten with the Cold War approaching. The immunity granted by Gen. MacArthur to Shiro Ishii and members of the bacteriological research units wasn't even known to the trial judges at that time.

[Jingthing]

"history's most important lesson . . . is that man has not learned much at all from history,"

Aldous Huxley

[gregb]

because America does not need any more left wing conspiracy nut cases like youeself

If I am a left wing conspiracy nut (I'm not of course, just using your words) would that make you a right wing conspiracy nut?

If not, perhaps you should try reading what you just wrote, and maybe trying to be a bit more open minded. Several recent polls I've seen indicate that approximately the half the country does not agree with your opinion. (And I don't know which opinion you hold, because you don't say, but whichever one it is, about half will disagree.) You may wish I was a conspiracy nut, and I suppose you wish that the 50% of America who thinks differently than you were also conspiracy nuts, but unfortunately I am simply an ordinary American expat with the capacity for critical thinking. I made no statement as to which conspiracy is the correct one, only that there are 2 competing schools of thought. Anything more than that is inappropriate in this thread, which should serve to honor the victims, who are very dead no matter who did the killing.

And I still maintain, it is sad that any American thinks that burning a Koran or denying a mosque within 2 blocks of the location of the twin towers is appropriate behavior. It is inappropriate no matter what you believe. This day of remembrance should not be marred by intolerance of others.

Edited September 13, 2010 by gregb

[TAWP]

I support private persons doing some healthy burning of books of any religion sometimes. It can get cold in the winters. Just make sure you paid for the books first.

[gregb]

Deleted. Incorrect thread.

Edited September 13, 2010 by gregb

[Tigs]

JohnLeech

Thanks for the quotes, very interesting.

Whatever your feelings of who was responsible for 9/11, whether you believe it was a conspiracy of 19 Arab hijackers with box cutters or whether you believe it was a conspiracy at the highest levels of the US government, everyone should be able to agree that it was not an act representative of nor supported by the vast majority of Muslims around the globe.

The planned burning of the Koran and the protests of a building mosque nearby is simply shameful, and plays right into the hands of whoever orchestrated the 9/11 tragedy.

It is a shame that we, the American people, can not even come to agreement on that which should be obvious. Blind hatred of innocent Muslims is not the answer to what ails America. The truth is something far, far closer to home, and much more personal.

This was a tragedy that affected all of us around the world, no matter our nationality, country of residence or political persuasion. My heart goes out to the families of the victims whose lives were cut short for no good reason, and hope that one day they get the justice they so desperately deserve. It is too bad this day of remembrance should be disrupted by controversy.

"weather you believe it was a conspiracy of 19 Arab hijackers with box cutters or weather you belive it was a conspiracy at the highest levels of the U.S. government"(you can't be serious?) Your ignorance of the facts and science of 9/11 are abundantly clear in your opening statement, just as your ignorance of what "we the American people can not come to agreement on" is! The vast majority of Americans were (and are still) overly tolerant and sympathetic to people of the muslim faith in the wake of 9/11, that there would not be retribution against any innocent muslims on American soil. As far as building the mosque in the shadow of the twin towers goes, as long as the property is zoned by the city of NY for such purposes it should go right ahead and be built just as any synagogue, christian church or hindu or buddist temple would have the right to be built on that lot, and the mayor of NY came out a few days ago and made a speech to that effect and the mosque will be built on that site. As far as some lunatic fundamentalist christian leader in Florida burning some Korans goes, he has has the same right to do that as the muslim group has to build that mosque near ground zero. Currently the freedoms that protect both the mosque builders and the book burners are still intact in America(thank God!), there are those in the current governmental regime including the President that would like to severely limit those freedoms, as of yet they have been largely unsuccessful and after the elctions this November their window of opportunity to try and enact radical left wing (progressive) legislation will come to an abrupt halt. What is really sad on this day of rememberance is that you would choose to grossly distort how the vast majority of the American people feel about everyday muslims and that you would choose to inject your ignorant conspiracy theories that only add insult to injury to the American people. I dearly hope that you are an expat who intends on living out his life overseas, because America does not need any more left wing conspiracy nut cases like youeself just as it does not need any more intolerant right wing nut cases. Sadly the idiots at both extremes seem to get the press while the other 90%+ of Americans just try to go on and lead decent lives and ignore the 10% that constantly seem to put the U.S. in a bad light. I have served to protect the rights that those 10% have to voice their ignorance and show their stupidity and would do so again, not because I agree with or like what the 10% have to say, but because I love the ideas and ideals for which it stands. I pray that the people in that congregation in Florida do not choose to burn those Korans, but if they do I certainly hope that there are not any left wing nuts that confront them to try and stop them with force, likewise I would hope that the muslim group building that mosque will have the sense to build it elsewhere out of the shadow of the old twin towers, however if they do choose to build it there then I hope that they are not hindered or threatened by any right wing nuts.

OK VegasVic, I will bite. Why does the opening statement you refer to display ignorance of the facts and science surrounding 9/11. Don't even get me started on the Science. There is one thing that has never ever been settled, because Vegas Vic the science just doesn't work.

Why after all your diatribe do you say in your last sentence you want them to build elsewhere? Why do you want them to build elsewhere, you have spent the previous two hundred words telling us it should be built there.

Don't kid yourself in to believing you are a nation of Free people just because it still says so in your National Anthem. You sacrificed much of that freedom when the patriot act was forced through. America is no longer the land of the free.

I leave you with this. 1 hour 30 minutes of 'Science and Facts'! Enjoy.

Some Science and Facts

For those complaining that this subject has nothing to do with Thailand I am aghast. It is the single most critical event in recent times that continues to drive US foreign policy which as it happens is the major driving force behind Global Economies (for the time being!). To put things in perspective on the sense of the whole thing. Since Dec 2001 a total of 62 American citizens have been killed due to terrorist attacks and a total of $600 Billion has been spent on the 'War on Terror' along with the deaths of over 6000 US troops and tens of thousands maimed and injured. every year in the US 550 000 people die from Cardiac disease, and 700 000 from Cancer. Total government expenditure on research to save it's citizens from these diseases since Dec 2001 $3 Billion. In terms of risk assessment and risk analysis it seems the country was being run by school children. It doesn't make sense. Wake up and smell the coffee.