Pigs 101 (A Start)

[IsaanAussie]

Thanks IsaanAussie....wise words.I hope that all went well with your sow and that she provided you with many healthy piglets.

Yes she did. She is a gilt and one of the smallest pigs in the herd so I was watching carefully. Only ten but all vigorous and very much alive. The problem of the last few months seem a long way away right now. I just hope they stay there.

Having bred all 12 of my sows I know how attached you get to each one, hope your wife gets back "on the bicycle" soon after such a loss.

IA

[IsaanAussie]

I'm looking for some opinions on my current litters. The boar I have has been working well and to date has produced a 100% pregnancy rate. I have two very good young boars that I had been planning to bring on and get rid of Cyril. One is a Duroc and the other Landrace, both good pigs.

Here is the question. Out of four litters farrowed that he has sired , Cyril has produced over 80% gilts, best 9 of 11 piglets. What would you guys do?

If anyone is looking for a boar to breed, one of the three has to go. The two new ones are 7 and 6 months, Cyril is 15 months. They are all too good to slaughter.

Isaan Aussie

[lucky2103]

Today I had an upset customer calling me early in the morning...one piglet which he bought off me 1 month before has died - he blamed "wrong food type" I sold to him for the loss.

After re-checking the records, I found out that I received 10 piglets from another good customer at an age of 28 days (ย่านม)

After 10 days and 2 sacks of Betagro 301 (อาหารหมูย่านม) I eventually sold 5 of the piglets to the customer who complained today. He bought 4 sacks of 301L (อาหารหมูเล็ก) since then.

Everything went smoothly until today.

I called in the vet immediately to get to know the reason of the death and it was found that the piglet died because of that virus which is actually spreading by air around the North and Isaan.

However, the customer sticks to his version, saying that I delivered the wrong sort of food to him...thus blaming me for the death of the piglet.

You can believe me that I'm fed up with these uneducated and stubborn villagers.

After I called my sales person at Betagro, who is also a vet, I was told that I should calm down because during his daily visits to various farm he even experienced more blatant cases.

[IsaanAussie]

I was taught that the customer is always right and I used to believe it until I came here. I can imagine that your guy is stretching the food with something else and if it is a viral death he is just trying to blame someone else and any other reason but it being his fault, either feed induced or lack of biosecurity. Do you know the weight of this grower pig? Or the chain of events surrounding the death?

I would just let that die down by itself. If you make a point of the actual reason, then for sure you will get blamed for supplying diseased pigs. If the ten piglets were all from the same litter than it is unlikely the problem was PRRS or PPV as the pigs should have maternal immunity for longer than 2 months. I would be interested in what the disease was and how the vet tested for it.

I have the same type of ignorance issues here. Many locals think I am too expensive, currently charging 2000 baht for a 10 Kg piglet. One guy told me that I should reduce the price because the piglets do not cost me anything, they are born free. I have given up trying to explain cost recovery for the boar and sow, let alone wafes and overheads. To him that didnt count because I had already spent that money. It doesnt occur to them that most young pigs they buy are just the rubbish that the large farms wont feed and sell to some middleman with a pickup truck.

In your case selling the feed and the piglets perhaps you should provide a "How to Feed a Piglet" brochure. Maybe you should dream up a story that makes everyone happy and stays away from the issues. But do not replace the pig or return any monies! If you get pushed then offer to call in the Livestock develoment people to test this guys farm and pigs. Bet you he just disappears!

Isaan Aussie

[lucky2103]

Well, to be honest, I supplied him with a FREE sack of 301 to calm him down early in the morning.

I also spent about half an hour to educate him about the feed type issue, thus explaining that the feed I sold to him was just according to Betagro's spreadsheet.

However, he was defiant.

Later in the morning, when I returned with the vet, that customer just arrived with a sack of SPM 105 feed and told me that he don't believes me at all.

After the vet concluded that the death was not related to the feed (after injecting some preventive medicine into the rest of the herd, which I paid in full) , the customer presented an empty pack of "medicine" which he administered to the sick piglet yesterday. After I had a look at the (Thai language) instructions, I quickly found out that the powder was for ducks and chicken...no pigs were mentioned whatsoever.

This means that the customer used the wrong type of "medicine"

Furthermore, he didn't believe that the actual weight of the herd averages 15kg - until I insisted on weighing the piglets...15kg was pretty accurate.

In fact, when the piglets arrived at my farm, average weight was 10kg, so the weight increase after 1 month of feeding was merely 5kg. Needles to say that I found traces of corn inside the pen, so it is clear that he stretches the feed...no one does this for little piglets, not even the most 'kiniau' farmers.

I just want this customer (a retired policeman) to become happy with that SPM stuff and never coming back to my store again.

Edited June 18, 2011 by lucky2103

[IsaanAussie]

Well, to be honest, I supplied him with a FREE sack of 301 to calm him down early in the morning.

I also spent about half an hour to educate him about the feed type issue, thus explaining that the feed I sold to him was just according to Betagro's spreadsheet.

However, he was defiant.

Later in the morning, when I returned with the vet, that customer just arrived mith a sack of SPM 105 feed and told me that he don't believes me at all.

After the vet concluded that the death was not related to the feed (after injecting some preventive medicine which I paid in full) , the customer presented an empty pack of "medicine" which he administered to the sick piglet yesterday. After I had a look at the (Thai language) instructions, I quickly found out that the powder was for ducks and chicken...no pigs were mentioned whatsoever.

This means that the customer used the wrong type of "medicine"

Furthermore, he didn't believe that the actual weight of the herd averages 15kg - until I insisted on weighing the piglets...15kg was pretty accurate.

In fact, when the piglets arrived at my farm, average weight was 10kg, so the weight increase after 1 month of feeding was merely 5kg. Needles to say that I found traces of corn inside the pen, so it is clear that he stretches the feed...no one does this for little piglets, not even the most 'kiniau' farmers.

I just want this customer (a retired policeman) to become happy with that SPM stuff and never coming back to my store again.

A real no win situation. A "big face" that listens to uneducated people and believes it all. Is told what they use (can afford) and how to use it, but never trys to understand the why? 5 kg in month 2 is just rediculous, he is the cause of death, he has already destroyed any chance of getting a decent FCR at 100 Kgs. I budget for 15kg at 60 days for costing purposes but expect much better. That is why I am introducing the two new boars. The Landrace was 100 kgs at under 5 months and the duroc at a little more. The current boar is producing piglets around 1.6 Kg at birth, but a high percentage of gilts. I have yet to determine if my previous health issues are a factor, so I cannot put that down to him yet.

The point being, if you have no idea of the impact of what someone else told you to do, how can you know what is right or wrong? Amazing Thailand!!!!

[lucky2103]

Just a quick question: How is this breed called ?

Today I was offered a batch, priced at 1500 ฿ per head.

Edited June 21, 2011 by lucky2103

[IsaanAussie]

Heres a tip for anyone who may have mummified piglets in a litter. First, it can be caused by having too many in the litter. If there are more than one or two it is likely disease related. There are a number of infectious diseases that can kill the piglets selectively but for the two virus related causes for concern, PRRS and PPV, heres how you tell what the cause is likely to be.

The piglet foetus attaches around day 30 beginning to form a skeleton which prevents it being reabsorbed completely and begins having immune responses to disease around day 70. PRRS doesnt attack before day 70 and PPV doesnt attack after then. So if you have mummies up to ranging in size up to 160 -170 mm long it is probably PPV (parvo) and longer PRRS.

Remember there are other causes.

Isaan Aussie

[IsaanAussie]

Just a quick question: How is this breed called ?

Today I was offered a batch, priced at 1500 ฿ per head.

The two common white breeds here are large white and landrace. The easiest way to pick is the ears. Landrace pigs ears usually fall forward over its eyes. Even with its head stuck in the feeder my bet is still large white.

What happened to the feed cylinders?

[lucky2103]

What happened to the feed cylinders?

I received them in the state visible on the pic.

My mother in-law told me that it was necessary to remove the tank (or ton) because the piglets would play around with the feed and spill it all over the pen.

Edited June 22, 2011 by lucky2103

[IsaanAussie]

What happened to the feed cylinders?

I received them in the state visible on the pic.

My mother in-law told me that it was necessary to remove the tank (or ton) because the piglets would play around with the feed and spill it all over the pen.

Thats a new one on me, opposite to what I thought. I have never seen anyone use them without the drum to regulate the feed. I have some of these feeders in my nursery pens. They are locally made and are not very good quality but work reasonably well as long as they are kept clean. The cast iron base units are much better but very expensive.

[lucky2103]

That's the feed cylinder in another pen...I never pour in too much feed, because the pigs will lift up the drum and create a real mess.

Edited June 22, 2011 by lucky2103

[lucky2103]

Another question which I think is quite important to me: Should I feed as much as the pigs can eat or shall I feed according to a plan ?

[IsaanAussie]

Lucky,

Firstly the feeder and pigs picking up the drum. There should be a bolt set through the central shaft, about half way up. This stops the drum from being lifted up. Check if the bolt is missing. If you can lift up the cylinder, then it is gone. Having said that, I only put in as much feed as the pigs should consume to avoid spillage and wasteage. If there is too much feed, the pigs will just play with the rest.

Now the feed regime. Please note, this is only my opinion and any feeding program must have a clear objective to suit what you want to produce. I believe you should feed to appetite with growing pigs when they FCR figures are low. If you dont then you are not maximising their growth rate. Once the pigs get to around 70 Kg their growth rate has slowed per kilo consumed and over eating starts to produces fat. At that stage I try to regulate the feed to maintain a body score rating of around 2 to 3 and feed the pigs what they will eat quickly with a little extra to prevent competition. I would rather see food wasted in the bowl than on the floor and we adjust the ration to maintain a slight remaining amount in the bowls.

At 100kg the pig hasnt finished growing but requires maintenance type diets rather than high protein feed. More than they need will just get laid down as fat. Thai people doesnt seem to care how much fat the pig is carrying and the temptation is to grow them as quickly as you can to get to the magic 100kg size. The feed regime decision is farm dependant IMHO above 60 kgs.

I make final selection of possible gilts at about 60Kgs. They are fed to prepare them for an adult breeding life of several years and so you have to consider things like their calcium intake for bone structure. You may spent 3 - 4,000 baht to feed a pig to 100kgs for market, but a sow is going to cost you 10,000 to 15,000 baht per year to feed.

Last point, I use bowl feeders so observing how much each pig eats is much easier.

IA

[IsaanAussie]

Ban on border exports of pigs to hold down retail price

By PETCHANET PRATRUANGKRAI

THE NATION

Published on June 25, 2011

The Internal Trade Department expects pork prices to drop soon after it suspends swine exports across the borders to neighbouring countries next week.

The department will ask the Goods and Service Price Committee of the Commerce Ministry to ban border exports of swine to neighbouring countries after it found a significant rise of such exports to cash in on higher retail prices.

Pig prices in Thailand are controlled at Bt70 per kilogram, while prices in neighbouring countries, mainly Vietnam and Cambodia, are Bt80-Bt90 per kilo.

Vatchari Vimooktayon, director-general of the department, said yesterday that it must enforce the ban stringently to protect domestic consumers. Any smuggling or removal of swine without the ministry's permission will result in a fine of Bt100,000 fine and/or five years in jail.

The Internal Trade Department in cooperation with the Customs and Livestock department will closely monitor the movement of swine in border provinces, Vatchari said. She pointed out that slaughterhouses in Chon Buri and Chachoengsao had noted unusual shipments to other areas.

Vatchari said that after imposing the stringent control of cross-border exports, the pork price should drop.

The ministry found that border shipments to neighbouring countries had jumped from a monthly average of 200-300 pigs to more than 1,000.

Normally, exports account for only 3-4 per cent of the total production of 12 million pigs a year.

The target retail price of pork |is Bt130 per kilogram, but the market retail price is Bt135 a kilo or higher.

As an addition effort to protect consumers from unfair trade practice, collusion, and market monopoly, the department in cooperation with the Royal Thai Police held a seminar on enforcement of the Trade Competition Act to educate officials from the Livestock Department and the police Consumer Protection Division on improved efficiency. Traders found guilty of price collusion are subject to three years' imprisonment and/or a Bt600,000 fine. Traders who overcharge face a maximum of seven years in jail and/or a Bt140,000 fine.

Edited June 29, 2011 by IsaanAussie

[IsaanAussie]

Hi pig people,

Just a brief note for anyone needing to transport pigs inter-provincially. All you need to do is go and see the local Livestock Department and tell them about the movement. You need to take the following information.

Copy of Thai ID Card

Copy of House Book (Tambein Bhan)

Name and Address of point of delivery

Registration Number of the Vehicle

Date of Transfer

No of pigs

They will issue the paperwork which you give to the person transporting the pigs. He only needs to present these documents if stopped by the police. We paid 300 baht for the clearance.

Now here is the very, very Thai side to all this. Your Livestock people will inform your local representatives and they may come to inspect the pigs after they arrive. Think about that for a second. Imagine there was a health issue with your stock, what that means is they would spread the problem throughout the journey and on arrival before anyone checked. As I said, a very Thai way of doing it, "Cure rather than Prevention". TIT

Isaan Aussie

[IsaanAussie]

Recently we had a visit from a group from Bangkok including the owners of BoLan Restaurant. Some of your may have seen Khun Bo on Thai TV on PBS. As part of the weekend organised by Raitong Organics (Bryan and Tui) the visitors and Bo TV crew visited our pigs and worms. A short section of the resulting program which aired recently can be found at.

http://www.thaipbs.or.th/clip/index.asp?content_id=308158&content_category_id=1062

So if you want to get a look at my operation but cant read Thai, then look for the image included and click

IA

[anton01972]

Recently we had a visit from a group from Bangkok including the owners of BoLan Restaurant. Some of your may have seen Khun Bo on Thai TV on PBS. As part of the weekend organised by Raitong Organics (Bryan and Tui) the visitors and Bo TV crew visited our pigs and worms. A short section of the resulting program which aired recently can be found at.

http://www.thaipbs.o...ategory_id=1062

So if you want to get a look at my operation but cant read Thai, then look for the image included and click

IA

IA,

Nice set up you have there, thanks for sharing.

T

[IsaanAussie]

I have been asked several times recently how the septic system for my pigs works. So I have attached a rough schematic to this post. Sorry no labels but I might add some later if anyone cant work it out. There are six tanks interconnected.

Edited August 8, 2011 by IsaanAussie

[IsaanAussie]

Lets try that again...

I have been asked several times recently how the septic system for my pigs works. So I have attached a rough schematic to this post. Sorry no labels but I might add some later if anyone cant work it out. There are six tanks interconnected.

septic tank schematic.pdf

Hopefully you can see this one

[tobbe20]

Iam impressed by isaanaussie`s farmer building but that is out of my range.

Iam thinking about helping my wife`s papa/mama to start up a smal scale pigfarm.

A member posted this pic showing his pigpen. I wonder if he read this or perhaps

other members can suggest what it will cost to build a pigpen same scale as this?

I will soon be in Thailand and will start to check how much a cementplant charge

for cementdelivery and so on but if someone could give me a clue it would be fine.

Edited August 24, 2011 by tobbe20

[IsaanAussie]

Tobbe20,

Welcome to the forum.

The sty you show was built by a member here looking to the future and he is set to expand his operation, good starting point to select. If you send him a PM I am sure he will give you an idea of the costs. In my case I was lucky enough to be able to use an existing sty while I built mine.

In your circumstances I would suggest you start somewhat differently to us both. You and your wife are not going to operate the farm is my assumption and further you do not have experience with pigs. You may not even be living on site.

I would suggest you look firstly at the cost of operation and the likelihood of success before you worry too much about the sty. There may be complaints about smell or noise if the pigs are neglected, or if you have jealous extortionistic neighbours. These issues most Thais settle by paying the list of complainers off. Dont do it ever!

As an example. You buy quality 10 piglets for the family to grow out. Currently 2 to 2,400 baht each. Then you fund the feed to 100kg at around 3,500 each. Your total investment will be 60,000 and the gross profit around 20,000. As far as the first sty is concerned, pick a number and then let the family build it. I would suggest around the profit potential that is 20K. You hand that over and thats that. When its is finished you buy the piglets. Paying for the feed every week needs to be controlled as it can easily be diverted and your pigs fed rubbish which ultimately means no profit as the pigs die or grow slowly. The modern pigs here are not native pigs but hybrids and they simply do not thrive on a poor diet.

So after 4 of 5 months (who pays for the labour?) the pigs are sold and suddenly 80,000 baht is in family hands. 100% return? No no. It doesnt work that way here normally. You are out 80K and you have an empty sty. This is the important bit, how you handle the next step. You either step away and say it is up to them as they have 20K profit and enough money to repeat the exercise, or you anti up again. But you get the chance to really know who you are dealing with, without getting in any arguments.

Assume everything has gone well after two batches, then think about expanding or increasing the capital investment in infrastructure.

Isaan Aussie

[IsaanAussie]

This is the Bing translator version of the current pork prices, makes an interesting read, but you should get the drift.

Overall consumption increased in Size and quantity has started in some regions Due to the decrease in Consumer. Trouble Rains Flooded pork and Chicken Meat SUBSTITUTE, especially reduced Price. Officials in the Pig. Needs more, but quantities remain insufficient to the Needs of the Buyer. From damage from rokrakha 2400 + 80 (8-8-54).

Central: West Group, New York prices average $ 81 stand price direction, Ratchaburi, Pak tho average price group at 81 per copy price direction, stand 56-57 template. price $.

East who cooperate with government's price controls. Stands for the price in the area by the average price at 81 baht, Chachoengsao, standing stiff prices of Chonburi average prices stand at 81 baht appreciation. I then left for 56-57 Baht

North: rain still falling prevalence. And quantity of pork has more volume. But prices are still standing.Above the average price. By each. London prices above 83 baht at 83 baht lower average prices stand. I then left for 59-60 Baht

Northeast: Rain continues to fall in the area. The food is not too much. The amount of pork to be deficientAbout the average price stood at 83 East directions below average price at 83 baht's standing.I then left for 60-62 Baht

South: the normal consumption. Due to the lack of pork. The prices are still standing strong on the average price of 85 baht to the prices of lower-priced, hard to stand up prices 86-87 baht appreciation. I then left for 49-50 Baht

[tobbe20]

Tobbe20,

Welcome to the forum.

The sty you show was built by a member here looking to the future and he is set to expand his operation, good starting point to select. If you send him a PM I am sure he will give you an idea of the costs. In my case I was lucky enough to be able to use an existing sty while I built mine.

In your circumstances I would suggest you start somewhat differently to us both. You and your wife are not going to operate the farm is my assumption and further you do not have experience with pigs. You may not even be living on site.

I would suggest you look firstly at the cost of operation and the likelihood of success before you worry too much about the sty. There may be complaints about smell or noise if the pigs are neglected, or if you have jealous extortionistic neighbours. These issues most Thais settle by paying the list of complainers off. Dont do it ever!

As an example. You buy quality 10 piglets for the family to grow out. Currently 2 to 2,400 baht each. Then you fund the feed to 100kg at around 3,500 each. Your total investment will be 60,000 and the gross profit around 20,000. As far as the first sty is concerned, pick a number and then let the family build it. I would suggest around the profit potential that is 20K. You hand that over and thats that. When its is finished you buy the piglets. Paying for the feed every week needs to be controlled as it can easily be diverted and your pigs fed rubbish which ultimately means no profit as the pigs die or grow slowly. The modern pigs here are not native pigs but hybrids and they simply do not thrive on a poor diet.

So after 4 of 5 months (who pays for the labour?) the pigs are sold and suddenly 80,000 baht is in family hands. 100% return? No no. It doesnt work that way here normally. You are out 80K and you have an empty sty. This is the important bit, how you handle the next step. You either step away and say it is up to them as they have 20K profit and enough money to repeat the exercise, or you anti up again. But you get the chance to really know who you are dealing with, without getting in any arguments.

Assume everything has gone well after two batches, then think about expanding or increasing the capital investment in infrastructure.

Isaan Aussie

I appreciate you taking the time to provide information / advice, thank you.

Money is sent to Thailand every month without that I feel it helps them noticeably. money disappears somehow in midair. I do not complain but perhaps it is better for all parties to put money into something concrete that can pay off and eventually develop.

Is correct that you assume that we have not the slightest experience with pigs. I have sought information on this forum and elsewhere around the web. I have come to understand that it is not always the straight road to be a pig farmer. The challenge is perhaps just as much to transfer the little knowledge I sit with the father in law.

Think i need to get her father to focus on quality food, cleaning the pig pen regulary and let them have plenty of fresh water available. Disease in the herd will as I understand to be a disaster and cut back profit.

My wife and I go to Thailand in 6 days and will then sit down and discuss. Consideration for other neighbors, I have no sacrifices a thought before you mentioned the problem.

When I ask papa how big the farm is the answer varies from time to time but other than rice fields, they have so I can judge very area in connection to the residential house

Regardless, unless there are obvious reasons that speak against it, we are willing to give it a try. Starting up the way you outline to build a pig pen and then buy about 10 piglets.

There might be some mistakes in the beginning but think it may be worth a try.

Is there strictly license to operate a pig farm in Thailand?

Again thanks a lot.

Edited August 27, 2011 by tobbe20

[RedBullHorn]

In the view of smell, you might consider building a small 3 x 2m methane pit with canvas covering over the septic pit to produce cooking gas for the family's kitchen. The concept is very common in villages and cost about ฿4-5'000 to build one. I don't need one as my farm is in range of 500m away from any immediate residence (village rule) and i don't cook in the farm house.

As for license, i have not come across anyone in my village who needed one, currently i'm raising 200 pigs for grow out and planning to expand up to 500. I only need to register with the municipal livestock department to get hygiene guide line and latest disease update.

[IsaanAussie]

Licences and permits is a very local issue. The laws are strict for large farms, over 500 pigs, but below that it is mostly controlled locally. So you will have to check with the PooYai in the village and with the Amphoe Office.

Where I am, if you build something about the size of a house you dont need a permit. The villagers here consider ten animals as a maximum for near domestic dwellings, usually less.

Also check the brands and grades of feed available and how it will be delivered to the farm. Most people using commercial feeds will use 4 or 5 grades as the pigs grow. The most expensive is for the younger pigs and when they are small the feed is most important. They grow quickly and must have the right diet to lay down muscle. The larger pigs need the protein level controlled as their feed conversion ratio is much lower and more protein than they need will be turned to fat.

You may be able to setup a direct debit payment with the feed merchant.

Good Luck

IA

[shaggy1969]

Hermitage Maxgro Successful in Thailand

THAILAND - The first Maxgro boars were delivered to Hermitage customers in Thailand in March 2010.

These boars were used to inseminate Hermitage F1 females on Pornpraset Farm (5,000 sow farm), located in Burirum province, 300 kms North of Bangkok. The objective of this first importation was to evaluate the growth rates and performance under Thai production and climatic conditions.

The progeny of these first inseminations reached slaughter weight of 112Kgs in 154 days from birth, outperforming all previous genetic lines evaluated at the farm.

As a result, the demand for Maxgro boars in the Thai market has rapidly increased and on 24 June 2011, Hermitage exported a second shipment of high health breeding stock to Thailand by air from Amsterdam to Bangkok. This shipment included AI standard performance tested Maxgro boars. It is planned that there will be three scheduled shipments of Maxgro boars for customers in Thailand each year. Hermitage has expanded the terminal boar nucleus to meet the increasing demand worldwide and now has over 1,200 GGP sows producing Maxgro boars.

Would mind getting my hands on a few of those....

[shaggy1969]

Iam impressed by isaanaussie`s farmer building but that is out of my range.

Iam thinking about helping my wife`s papa/mama to start up a smal scale pigfarm.

A member posted this pic showing his pigpen. I wonder if he read this or perhaps

other members can suggest what it will cost to build a pigpen same scale as this?

I will soon be in Thailand and will start to check how much a cementplant charge

for cementdelivery and so on but if someone could give me a clue it would be fine.

Hi tobbe20 and welcome.Have sent some details to your email inbox....hope it helps

[IsaanAussie]

If you are wondering why the prices are high, this may help explain it. Off the web today.

Swine output in Thailand is expected to drop by 30% this year from a previously estimated 12 million animals.

According to Surachai Sutthitham, President of the Swine Raisers Association of Thailand, porcine reproductive and respiratory syndrome (PRRSV) is responsible for the downfall of the output. He also mentioned other diseases such as porcine epidemic diarrhoea and foot-and-mouth disease that have caused lower production.

Biosecurity gentlemen. Not a joke at all. Tell that guy with his boar in a box behind his bike to go away, no tell him to F You CK off. No one unusual in the pens. Isolate new stock. Anything you can do, do it, there are no second chances. This is not all in all out, this is one in all dead.

Edited August 29, 2011 by IsaanAussie

[RedBullHorn]

This is nice, put a smile on me... Watch in full screen !

Edited September 10, 2011 by RedBullHorn