Thai Defense Minister Clarifies Crackdown Of Red-Shirt Rally

[rubl]

Smug reply, I understand how to use a search engine. I like to find my information beyond the realms of the thai visa forum. Generally I find that information unbiased, it's usually wise to chose a variety of sources before forming an opinion. RIP to the people involved but 3 deaths from cancer and a heart attack is likely to happen in a hospital. Directly attributable to the relocation?

Any doctor will be prepared to tell you a heart patient needs rest. Protesters storming the hospital, searching for whatever, making noise, threatening doctors and patients, all this is not recommended as part of therapy. The loud noise from outside on a 24-hour/day base is also considered contra-productive. Even for patients who might like the UDD propaganda, or Isan music.

Searching is easy, to find something appropriate less so. And of course only pick out those items which confirm your believes. We're human after all, aren't we ?

Please see my post with regard to a discussion. I see your point and and agree , it doesn't make any of my other counter points any less relevant.

My personal opinion and observation, wrong or right. Somehow I think many of your remarks tend to sow doubt into anything which may reflect bad on red-shirts c.s. and/or good on government c.s. Your good right of course, even within forum rules. Keep up the good work.

[Buchholz]

Not a good move by the Red Shirts and totally wrong. Out of interest the Hospital Director is the same guy that refused to treat injured police during the PAD rallies.Only found one google reference to being armed, according to that source (alone) some red shirts were carrying wooden staves, and no references at all about 4 patients dying from the evacuation. Not denying it, just have totake your word for it.

Not sure where you are looking for to review the history, but personally I've found there's a wealth of information available right here on the forum. The search engine here isn't half bad and pretty easy to navigate through. As an example, I quickly found this small snippet to hopefully help out in your quest for other answers:

4 patients died from Chulalongkorn Hospital evacuation

BANGKOK (NNT) -- A total of 4 patients of King Chulalongkorn Memorial Hospital have been pronounced dead after being relocated due to the anti-government protesters' intrusion of the compound last week.

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__3573715

Smug reply, I understand how to use a search engine. I like to find my information beyond the realms of the thai visa forum. Generally I find that information unbiased, it's usually wise to chose a variety of sources before forming an opinion. RIP to the people involved but 3 deaths from cancer and a heart attack is likely to happen in a hospital. Directly attributable to the relocation?

He probably thinks the Nation didn't spin it enough, so he's giving it a couple of extra twirls himself. Don't get dizzy, B.

The objectivity used to be strong, but now Prejudice is master of this one.

For those evidently unfamiliar with media acronyms, NNT does not stand for The Nation.

There's no need to spin it. Patients died from the evacuation. That is what the original Pi Sek statement was and it's true.

For anyone that can not see the turbulent transfer as a contributing factor to an ill person's death does a great disservice to the deceased and their family.

That is a component of why so many people, Reds included, turned away from this violent gang.

The disgraceful act of forcing the ill Supreme Patriach was especially vilified by the Thais I spoke with it at the time. They also were still worried for him even after his transfer because he went to Siriraj Hospital and that was one of the specific locations that Arisaman in speeches threatened to burn down to the ground.

Edited October 22, 2010 by Buchholz

[phiphidon]

Smug reply, I understand how to use a search engine. I like to find my information beyond the realms of the thai visa forum. Generally I find that information unbiased, it's usually wise to chose a variety of sources before forming an opinion. RIP to the people involved but 3 deaths from cancer and a heart attack is likely to happen in a hospital. Directly attributable to the relocation?

Any doctor will be prepared to tell you a heart patient needs rest. Protesters storming the hospital, searching for whatever, making noise, threatening doctors and patients, all this is not recommended as part of therapy. The loud noise from outside on a 24-hour/day base is also considered contra-productive. Even for patients who might like the UDD propaganda, or Isan music.

Searching is easy, to find something appropriate less so. And of course only pick out those items which confirm your believes. We're human after all, aren't we ?

Please see my post with regard to a discussion. I see your point and and agree , it doesn't make any of my other counter points any less relevant.

My personal opinion and observation, wrong or right. Somehow I think many of your remarks tend to sow doubt into anything which may reflect bad on red-shirts c.s. and/or good on government c.s. Your good right of course, even within forum rules. Keep up the good work.

In my original counterpoint discussion ( before it was dissected into individual snippets) you will find that I said that it was a bad idea by the red shirts to occupy the hospital and that I did not comment on the last few points at all, one way or another. Personally I'm not too fond of any of the politicians in Thailand, government or opposition.

[rubl]

begin removed ...

Personally I'm not too fond of any of the politicians in Thailand, government or opposition.

Just to lighten the sphere a bit:

"President Obama has been meeting with voters in what he calls 'backyard chats.' He's held these in real people's backyards. You know something, I think all politicians should talk to people in their backyards. Then you could take what they say and spread it on the lawn." –Jay Leno

[SergeiY]

When people start discussing details like where the grenades were fired from, they are distracted from the issue of who fired those M79's. FACT is that with 60+ grenade attacks during March - May 2010 in Bangkok area ONLY non-reds were killed, maimed, injured. this includes army personel, police officers, bystanders.

How you know?

Which one, the 'distracting', or 'only non-reds' ? You may believe me on my greyish-green eyes, but I won't be offended if you google/yahoo around a bit yourself

The FACT part ...

And how you can tell the red dead from the non-red dead? What is the total number of non-red dead and maimed non-reds?

Have you also details about the red dead and how they were killed?

[rubl]

When people start discussing details like where the grenades were fired from, they are distracted from the issue of who fired those M79's. FACT is that with 60+ grenade attacks during March - May 2010 in Bangkok area ONLY non-reds were killed, maimed, injured. this includes army personel, police officers, bystanders.

How you know?

Which one, the 'distracting', or 'only non-reds' ? You may believe me on my greyish-green eyes, but I won't be offended if you google/yahoo around a bit yourself

The FACT part ...

And how you can tell the red dead from the non-red dead? What is the total number of non-red dead and maimed non-reds?

Have you also details about the red dead and how they were killed?

red dead = good, non-red = not good

total number non-red dead = 91 - total number red dead

total number maimed non-reds = total maimed - total number red maimed

total number non-reds injured = 1800++ - total number reds injured

details? increase font size for better view!

Edited October 22, 2010 by rubl

[SergeiY]

red dead = good, non-red = not good

total number non-red dead = 91 - total number red dead

total number maimed non-reds = total maimed - total number red maimed

total number non-reds injured = 1800++ - total number reds injured

details? increase font size for better view!

Do you think its funny?

[rubl]

red dead = good, non-red = not good

total number non-red dead = 91 - total number red dead

total number maimed non-reds = total maimed - total number red maimed

total number non-reds injured = 1800++ - total number reds injured

details? increase font size for better view!

Do you think its funny?

Not really, but with every answer questioned again I had enough for the moment. Try to bait me again tomorrow.

[givenall]

Case closed

[monkfish]

Here is another story regarding Chulalong Hospital a few years before involving a different colored shirt

http://www.thaiphoto...1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

For some perspective, from the other English language newspaper (sorry not allowed to post link)

Tuesday October 14, 2008

'Doctors call off threat to refuse medical treatment to police'

Chiang Mai University medical academics ended their position of refusing to provide police officers with medical care as a protest against the police's Oct 7 violent crackdown on anti-government protesters.

Doctors and health professionals did not discriminate in their provision of medical services and still gave attention to the police, said Sattawat Thongsawat, a lecturer in cardiology at the university's faculty of medicine, in a statement.

The about-face came after one member of staff from Maharaj Nakorn Chiang Mai hospital was physically assaulted by protesters from the pro-government Rak Chiang Mai 51 Group on Saturday.

The pro-government group vented its frustration over the doctors' boycott against police following the violent clash between police and supporters of the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) in Bangkok last week.

Yahoo or google for full article.

No hospital should should ever get involved in politics this one did.

They refused to treat injured policemen i.e. people.

It's against the law in Thailand for a hospital to refuse treatment to anybody no matter what political side they are on.

[Skywalker69]

Here the only good red is a dead red.

The only people who ever had an interest in seeing reds get killed were those running that movement, who were keen to be seen the victim under suppression by the nasty ruthless authorities.

Take a trip around the countryside, visit a few poor villages, or the poor areas of Bangkok, take a day out from your airconned condos, see how most of the Thais live.

You can see how Thais live until you are blue in the face, won't make you understand why the red movement offers a solution to their problems. It does not.

You´r right, the Red movment in my eyes is a Cult, they never had a political program never talked economy.

The main goal was and is to bring back Mr. T to power.

God knows what Thaksin has promiesed the Red leaders if they can get rid of the Government.

[rubl]

No hospital should should ever get involved in politics this one did.

They refused to treat injured policemen i.e. people.

It's against the law in Thailand for a hospital to refuse treatment to anybody no matter what political side they are on.

The hospital only got involved indirectly, because some of its doctors made a stand. The doctors forgot their hippocratic oath for a moment. Deplorable for sure.

It suffice to say 'some doctors' refused to treat people', it is unnecessary to point out their profession, position in the political situation, or their skin color.

I'm not sure it's against the law for a hospital to refuse treatment. Recently a private hospital in Bangkok moved patients because of a dispute about bills and the heights of them. Note that here are lots of countries where treatment may be withheld, the US of A comes to mind.

[monkfish]

No hospital should should ever get involved in politics this one did.

They refused to treat injured policemen i.e. people.

It's against the law in Thailand for a hospital to refuse treatment to anybody no matter what political side they are on.

The hospital only got involved indirectly, because some of its doctors made a stand. The doctors forgot their hippocratic oath for a moment. Deplorable for sure.

It suffice to say 'some doctors' refused to treat people', it is unnecessary to point out their profession, position in the political situation, or their skin color.

I'm not sure it's against the law for a hospital to refuse treatment. Recently a private hospital in Bangkok moved patients because of a dispute about bills and the heights of them. Note that here are lots of countries where treatment may be withheld, the US of A comes to mind.

Sure put the blame on the staff its normal!

[OzMick]

Not a good move by the Red Shirts and totally wrong. Out of interest the Hospital Director is the same guy that refused to treat injured police during the PAD rallies.Only found one google reference to being armed, according to that source (alone) some red shirts were carrying wooden staves, and no references at all about 4 patients dying from the evacuation. Not denying it, just have totake your word for it.

Not sure where you are looking for to review the history, but personally I've found there's a wealth of information available right here on the forum. The search engine here isn't half bad and pretty easy to navigate through. As an example, I quickly found this small snippet to hopefully help out in your quest for other answers:

4 patients died from Chulalongkorn Hospital evacuation

BANGKOK (NNT) -- A total of 4 patients of King Chulalongkorn Memorial Hospital have been pronounced dead after being relocated due to the anti-government protesters' intrusion of the compound last week.

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__3573715

Smug reply, I understand how to use a search engine. I like to find my information beyond the realms of the thai visa forum. Generally I find that information unbiased, it's usually wise to chose a variety of sources before forming an opinion. RIP to the people involved but 3 deaths from cancer and a heart attack is likely to happen in a hospital. Directly attributable to the relocation?

You are absolutely correct! Those people would have died anyway! Of course, it might not have been for quite a few years.............

So obviously the Redshirts aren't responsible for the deaths, just for hastening the inevitable. I'll leave it to you to extrapolate that theme on to the M-79 attacks.

[OzMick]

No hospital should should ever get involved in politics this one did.

They refused to treat injured policemen i.e. people.

It's against the law in Thailand for a hospital to refuse treatment to anybody no matter what political side they are on.

The hospital only got involved indirectly, because some of its doctors made a stand. The doctors forgot their hippocratic oath for a moment. Deplorable for sure.

It suffice to say 'some doctors' refused to treat people', it is unnecessary to point out their profession, position in the political situation, or their skin color.

I'm not sure it's against the law for a hospital to refuse treatment. Recently a private hospital in Bangkok moved patients because of a dispute about bills and the heights of them. Note that here are lots of countries where treatment may be withheld, the US of A comes to mind.

Sure put the blame on the staff its normal!

A very short distance away is the POLICE hospital, which AFAIK, only treats police. The refusal was so that police would be taken there, and ill-feeling between patients would not interfere with treatment.

[Sirdar]

If it was a peaceful protest they could have used peaceful means to resolve it.

'Can anyone tell me how many of the present Governments supporters were kil;led when they sat in at the airport a couple of years ago

[whybother]

If it was a peaceful protest they could have used peaceful means to resolve it.

'Can anyone tell me how many of the present Governments supporters were kil;led when they sat in at the airport a couple of years ago

At the same time, maybe they can point out how many army/police/non-protesters were killed during the yellow shirt protests.

[anterian]

It is nice to see a few people such as hanuman can write constructively even in the face of a barrage of anti red condemnation. It is so easy in a situation like this to pick events and Youtube videos that support one's poarticulkar viewpoint.

incidentally, as a scientist myself, I have taken an interest in Dr. Porntip's activities over the years, my candid opinion is that she should have chosen hairdressing as a career.

[rubl]

No hospital should should ever get involved in politics this one did.

They refused to treat injured policemen i.e. people.

It's against the law in Thailand for a hospital to refuse treatment to anybody no matter what political side they are on.

The hospital only got involved indirectly, because some of its doctors made a stand. The doctors forgot their hippocratic oath for a moment. Deplorable for sure.

It suffice to say 'some doctors' refused to treat people', it is unnecessary to point out their profession, position in the political situation, or their skin color.

I'm not sure it's against the law for a hospital to refuse treatment. Recently a private hospital in Bangkok moved patients because of a dispute about bills and the heights of them. Note that here are lots of countries where treatment may be withheld, the US of A comes to mind.

Sure put the blame on the staff its normal!

Even IF the hospital ordered the doctors not to help some patients, the doctors would be wrong following that order.

May I suggest you read and TRY to understand?

[hanuman1]

It is nice to see a few people such as hanuman can write constructively even in the face of a barrage of anti red condemnation. It is so easy in a situation like this to pick events and Youtube videos that support one's poarticulkar viewpoint.

incidentally, as a scientist myself, I have taken an interest in Dr. Porntip's activities over the years, my candid opinion is that she should have chosen hairdressing as a career.

Thanks for your kind words. It's odd that I don't even feel that much more aligned with the 'Red Movement' than any of the anti-red obsessives when they say they sympathize with the plight of the rural poor.

The thing I constantly harp on about is the blanket condemnation of those very same people as 'idiots' and 'scum' because posters here can't be bothered to differentiate between the broadly varying constituents of an umbrella movement.

The other thing that gets my goat is when people have finally made up their minds which bandwagon to roll with (some take longer than others), their prejudice gradually lowers the standards of veracity they apply to whatever news they receive, inserting assumptions into gaps in information to align the piece with their beliefs.

There's absolutely no doubt that this happens to supporters of both sides (I've heard some Redshirts accusing certain individuals of doing things that I frankly find completely crazy/unbelievable), and it is probably related to the saying - in even worse situations - that 'the first casualty of war is the truth'.

I've only ever tried to redress the imbalance that is potentially caused by this action of prejudice on the 'truth' (or, in less idealistic terms, balance) by questioning reports and positing hypothetical parallels which may help clarify some perceived misconceptions.

For this, I've been variously labelled a red-sympathizer/apologist, supporter of terrorists, paid red lackey, insincere, communist and a load more. I don't mind it, because some people just cannot fathom my viewpoint. That's cool. I'm not here to change their minds (see signature), just play my role. Which is why we're all here, right?

Edited October 23, 2010 by hanuman1

[Hitch22]

It is nice to see a few people such as hanuman can write constructively even in the face of a barrage of anti red condemnation. It is so easy in a situation like this to pick events and Youtube videos that support one's poarticulkar viewpoint.

incidentally, as a scientist myself, I have taken an interest in Dr. Porntip's activities over the years, my candid opinion is that she should have chosen hairdressing as a career.

Thanks for your kind words. It's odd that I don't even feel that much more aligned with the 'Red Movement' than any of the anti-red obsessives when they say they sympathize with the plight of the rural poor.

The thing I constantly harp on about is the blanket condemnation of those very same people as 'idiots' and 'scum' because posters here can't be bothered to differentiate between the broadly varying constituents of an umbrella movement.

The other thing that gets my goat is when people have finally made up their minds which bandwagon to roll with (some take longer than others), their prejudice gradually lowers the standards of veracity they apply to whatever news they receive, inserting assumptions into gaps in information to align the piece with their beliefs.

There's absolutely no doubt that this happens to supporters of both sides (I've heard some Redshirts accusing certain individuals of doing things that I frankly find completely crazy/unbelievable), and it is probably related to the saying - in even worse situations - that 'the first casualty of war is the truth'.

I've only ever tried to redress the imbalance that is potentially caused by this action of prejudice on the 'truth' (or, in less idealistic terms, balance) by questioning reports and positing hypothetical parallels which may help clarify some perceived misconceptions.

For this, I've been variously labelled a red-sympathizer/apologist, supporter of terrorists, paid red lackey, insincere, communist and a load more. I don't mind it, because some people just cannot fathom my viewpoint. That's cool. I'm not here to change their minds (see signature), just play my role. Which is why we're all here, right?

It's really simple. Most of the evidence points the finger at army snipers blowing the brains off red shirt demonstrators . The rest is crap,bullshit , <deleted> .

[whybother]

It's really simple. Most of the evidence points the finger at army snipers blowing the brains off red shirt demonstrators . The rest is crap,bullshit , <deleted> .

Maybe you would like to share some of that evidence .....

[SergeiY]

It is nice to see a few people such as hanuman can write constructively even in the face of a barrage of anti red condemnation. It is so easy in a situation like this to pick events and Youtube videos that support one's poarticulkar viewpoint.

incidentally, as a scientist myself, I have taken an interest in Dr. Porntip's activities over the years, my candid opinion is that she should have chosen hairdressing as a career.

true words.

[Insight]

It's really simple. Most of the evidence points the finger at army snipers blowing the brains off red shirt demonstrators . The rest is crap,bullshit , <deleted> .

Can you do that impressive temper-tantrum stick-throwing move for us again?

[jdinasia]

It's really simple. Most of the evidence points the finger at army snipers blowing the brains off red shirt demonstrators . The rest is crap,bullshit , <deleted> .

Maybe you would like to share some of that evidence .....

Care to present that evidence Hitch? I am sure that the world press would like for you to come forward with it!

[jdinasia]

If it was a peaceful protest they could have used peaceful means to resolve it.

'Can anyone tell me how many of the present Governments supporters were kil;led when they sat in at the airport a couple of years ago

At the same time, maybe they can point out how many army/police/non-protesters were killed during the yellow shirt protests.

Point of order. The government at the time of the airport rally (that lasted about 8 days) was a pro-Thaksin PPP led coalition. In other words Sirdar's statement makes no sense.

In the grenade attacks against the PAD supporters at the airport there were casualties. A now deceased red-shirt leader who bragged about the only dance he would do was the 'throw a grenade' dance told of those attacks before they happened.

[SergeiY]

If it was a peaceful protest they could have used peaceful means to resolve it.

'Can anyone tell me how many of the present Governments supporters were kil;led when they sat in at the airport a couple of years ago

At the same time, maybe they can point out how many army/police/non-protesters were killed during the yellow shirt protests.

Point of order. The government at the time of the airport rally (that lasted about 8 days) was a pro-Thaksin PPP led coalition. In other words Sirdar's statement makes no sense.

In the grenade attacks against the PAD supporters at the airport there were casualties. A now deceased red-shirt leader who bragged about the only dance he would do was the 'throw a grenade' dance told of those attacks before they happened.

Not true.

[yoshiwara]

Here the only good red is a dead red.

The only people who ever had an interest in seeing reds get killed were those running that movement, who were keen to be seen the victim under suppression by the nasty ruthless authorities.

Take a trip around the countryside, visit a few poor villages, or the poor areas of Bangkok, take a day out from your airconned condos, see how most of the Thais live.

You can see how Thais live until you are blue in the face, won't make you understand why the red movement offers a solution to their problems. It does not.

You´r right, the Red movment in my eyes is a Cult, they never had a political program never talked economy.

The main goal was and is to bring back Mr. T to power.

God knows what Thaksin has promiesed the Red leaders if they can get rid of the Government.

A cut of the profits from looting the state.

What the reds have to put up with however is their subordination to Thaksin's control.

The red leadership is always kept split up so no-one can displace the paymaster.

The idea that that the reds go beyond Thaksin is a myth they would like to propagate.

Their cheerleaders would like to keep Thaksin out of the picture, but fail every time.

[otherstuff1957]

Point of order. The government at the time of the airport rally (that lasted about 8 days) was a pro-Thaksin PPP led coalition. In other words Sirdar's statement makes no sense.

In the grenade attacks against the PAD supporters at the airport there were casualties. A now deceased red-shirt leader who bragged about the only dance he would do was the 'throw a grenade' dance told of those attacks before they happened.

Not true.

Not true??? Do a little research. Sae Dang was uncannily accurate at predicting grenade attacks. If you didn't know that all Reds are peaceful farmers, you'd think that he had something to do with those grenade attacks.

[rubl]

Point of order. The government at the time of the airport rally (that lasted about 8 days) was a pro-Thaksin PPP led coalition. In other words Sirdar's statement makes no sense.

In the grenade attacks against the PAD supporters at the airport there were casualties. A now deceased red-shirt leader who bragged about the only dance he would do was the 'throw a grenade' dance told of those attacks before they happened.

Not true.

Maybe not true, but how do we less gifted posters know? Don't keep us in suspense, dear chap. Details please.