Negative Career Consequences For Thai Partner As A Result Of Time Visiting Another Country ?

[crazydrummerpauly]

Hi everyone - this is a rather specialized topic which might only interest a minority of members,

so apologies for that in advance. I'd like to ask : Has anyone had the experience of taking a Thai

girlfriend, wife or partner to visit their home country for any period longer than a typical 2 to 4 week

holiday, and then found that the Thai person's CIVIL SERVICE ( e.g., state-school teacher ) career

was ruined ? I.e., that the Thai was excluded from readily resuming the career that they had established

before the trip abroad ? A few people who might be expected to know about this, have told me that this

kind of ( obnoxious ) discrimination is standard practice. In the case of a Thai teacher ( graduate ) of

English in a Thai government school, one would imagine that any time spent actually living and communicating

in an English-speaking culture would be a distinct PLUS in the performance of their profession, but I'm

being told that Thai Education bureaucrats view any longish period away from a Thai civil-service job as

some kind of self-inflicted termination of career. My partner's career is SO important and hard-won, that

any risk of its demolition by a period of residence in my country could even put any such trip away from Thailand

on hold for years to come. Please... any hard facts / experiences relating to this concern ?

Edited October 28, 2010 by cdnvic
removed text formatting for readability

[7by7]

Not a question about visas and migration.

The teaching forum seems to be for farang teaching in Thailand.

So better in General I think.

[LeCharivari]

" ........bureaucrats view any longish period away from a Thai civil-service job as some kind of self-inflicted termination of career."

Most "bureaucrats" anywhere would see someone taking an extended and unapproved leave of absence from their "civil-service job" in a pretty dim light; unless it has been approved and is for some sort of official study or training, relevant to their job, why should your partner taking a holiday with you be seen any differently?

[Beetlejuice]

This all depends on the situation and purposes for her long term stay abroad.

For example; if the Thai lady partner went abroad just to live & work or stay with a partner then she would not be looked upon favourably by any Thai company or government institution as an employee on her return. There would be concerns that she may at anytime get the calling again and leave for those green hills which are not the green hills of home. Also they believe that her long term absence from the particular job would have put her out of touch and behind within her knowledge of that employment, therefore being a burden requiring retraining in order to catch up with the knowledge and skills required for that particular sort of work.

But on the other hand, if she went abroad for study, to further her education and gain credentials for the purposes of enhancing her qualifications for the intended employment and career in Thailand with the paper work to prove it, this would be very beneficial to her employment prospects in Thailand.

Other factors also include age. The younger the lady the more chances she has of being able to make a fresh start if she returns to Thailand. If a woman in her 30s or older is out of the Thai system for any substantial amount of time, her chances of being able to continue where she left off on her return to Thailand are very remote, even when well qualified. It`s the same unwritten policy with most companies and institutional employers, these days it is this upmarket young image, especially in Thailand. Just take a peek at the job vacancy ads, see their terms of employment and who should apply.

To sum this all up for your consideration; age, reasons for long term absence abroad and keeping up to date with the technological skills and requirements of the job.

Edited October 28, 2010 by Beetlejuice

[Soutpeel]

It could also be a smoke-screen and in fact she doesnt want to go with you and will not tell you directly that she doesnt want to leave Thailand for an extended period...have you considered that..

Same in any career any where in the world...take a sabbatical and come back things generally have changed, the world doesnt stop for one indivdual....is it discrimination ?.....No

[crazydrummerpauly]

OK, finally have time to reconsider this topic, and to reply to the very few responses individually.

1. In fact, there were no replies of the kind i asked for, based on actual experience of Thai partners returning to Thailand

after a period travelling and then attempting to revive their prior career. That was disappointing, but time has passed and

i have found out more from other sources anyway.

2. In reply to 7by7....well, i don't agree 100% that the topic has NOTHING to do with migration, though i do see that it is outside

visa-issues as such. Was the essence of your post that i should re-list the topic in General ? (I'm not totally familiar with how

members find topics within TV.)

3. In reply to LeCharivari....i think there is some misunderstanding of my original question, which must be partly my fault due to the

language used. The issue i was rasing was not about anyone returning to the SAME job, at the SAME level - of course not. There

is also the quesion of who gets called a "Civil Servant" in Thailand - it would be better to stick to the situation of a normal Primary-School

teacher and only then compare the situation in Thailand with the situaton i do know a lot about back in the UK. If any teacher in a UK

school leaves their job to go abroad - for whatever reason - it is completely normal for them to re-enter the teaching profession at any

school which has a vacancy for their category of teaching. Not only would they not be PUNISHED for daring to experience other parts of

the world ( as i think they are in Thailand ), but rather, depending on the precise nature of their foreign experiences, they would be likely

to be valued more highly than before they travelled. Now, in the case of a THAI teacher of ENGLISH in a THAI school, it is obvious to any

rational person that a time spent immersed in an English culture speaking Engilsh every day could only enhmace that teacher's own

English-language skills. The reasons that this attitude is not the norm in Thailand are many and murky - civil-service jobs here are badges

of a certain minimal professional status within a tangled, corrupt, top-heavy system, and any Thai who lands a civil-service post with its

various perks is expected to pay a price/show gratitude + loyalty, by giving up their autonomy and freedom of movement - unless they can

unlock the red-tape with copious wads of under-the-table money. Being a worker in the Thai education-system is like being a member of

a massive centrailsed patriarchal tribe - for example, and again in contrast to 'modern democracies' - if a Thai teacher wants to work in

a different town, they cannot simply look in the relevant professional journal and apply to a school for a job; oh no, they have to get permission

from their existing Headteacher who, if it suits them in some way ( and there can be many ways !) will write a letter to the provincial education

office who might ( months later ) canvass the opinions of various other interested parties includng of course the Headteacher at the new school..

and so many secretive processes are involved that the scope for dodgy transactions is considerable...and then there is what might be called a

'points-system' - rather than the most ABLE appliacnt geting a new job in a different town, points are awarded to an applicant who wants to move

to the new town "To be nearer to her husband/his wife", or to go back to "Look after sick parents"....etc etc...this is such an important element of the

whole sticky process, that it would be routine for a couple to get married in order to be able to play the 'Married' card. In isolation, an argument that

an applicant sould be assisted to move to a new job in a new town to be nearer a family member of one kind or another is unobjectionable...until

one realises that as in so many areas of Thai life and business, the principle of appointing the best-person-for-the-job ( or giving the road-building

contract/brige/hospital.....) to the best company, takes a back seat. So, in case this all seems irrelevant to my original post, no, it's not. It is futile

and inaccurate to make glib references to what happens or does not happen in civil-services around the world - any discussion of an individual process

within the THAI civil-service can only be analysed and understood by reference to the specific character of that huge and at times impenetrable entity.

4. In reply to Beetlejuice....thanks so much for an intelligent, thought-provoking response, with some solid sociological insights. The point about ageism

hadn't occurred to me at all. Ok, point-by-point: i hadn't meant to ask about a Thai returning the same job or same company on their return - only about

the specific situation of a Thai government teacher becoming a Thai government teacher again. This would be a completely normal thing to do in the UK

after a period away from the job, for whatever reason, be it travelling, pregnancy, illness...etc. Hence my sense of shock if the Thai government functions

like some '100% with-us-or-against-us' cult ! As for your point about being behind the up-to-date skill levels that the profession's cutting-edge has reached

while the Thai was away travelling....well, forgive me, but it's hard not to laugh - have you some experience of the teaching-standards in an avarage provincial

school in Thailand ? It is not exactly challenging to keep up-to-date with the level of teaching of English to primary-school children in most schools in Isaan

for example - especially where many Headmasters seem to see their job as a huge skiving opportunity in which time in the classrooms is minimal and time

spent drinking with other Headmaster cronies is maximal. On a small personal note: my Thai partner is an English-major graduate teaching way above the average

linguistic level in Thai primary schools, and in addition to full-time teaching, does 90% of the Headmaster's paperwork to leave him free to do god-knows-what.

Any time spent immersed in an English-language speaking culture would only make her even further above the normal level of English teaching here. I can of course

see your point if the traveller was something other than a linguist of some kind - especially if the traveller-absentee was an engineer, technologist, medic, etc etc...

On the point about a potential employer being concerned that a Thai had returned from travelling and therefore might have the cheek to go travelling again - do you

see the full repressive consequence of that idea ? I would simply ask anyone who thinks that is a reasonable to position to again compare that Thai orientation to

a perfectly normal type of human behaviour with 'our' attitude to travel and experiencing other cultures in modern democracies. How ludricous it would be if a human

resources manager interviewing me for a vacancy in tyhe UK said: "Well, you are well-qualified for the job, but you went to Asia 3 years ago and you might go abroad

again one day, so no, i cannot offer you the job." ???

5. In reply to Soutpeel....ah, this is the funny one - thanks for a laugh. I fear you may be engaged in some projection there - having trouble with ladies not wanting to go etc...

Since i was 14, many moons ago, i've been a babe-magnet of sorts - professional rock-drummer / university lecturer / car-dealer....all gave many opportunities....nah Soutpeel,

my problem has been getting away from the ladies clutches, poor me. But thanks for the giggle !

[Soutpeel]

5. In reply to Soutpeel....ah, this is the funny one - thanks for a laugh. I fear you may be engaged in some projection there - having trouble with ladies not wanting to go etc...

Your fears are misplaced, Mrs Soutpeel would leave Thailand tomorrow and the only reason I am still here is because of the job...

As regards your diatribe, philosophical review of the situation.....is it a day off at the "English school" or something ?...

[JurgenG]

Work for the government is ruled by unions. It's true all over the world.

You're supposed to be a civil servant from graduation to retirement

Break the mold, pay the price.

Do you know that major airlines won't recognize experience in other airlines because of union rules ? You can be a captain in one of the top major worldwide airlines, if you join an other airline you have to start from the bottom ?

Union 4ks the world !

[JurgenG]

Work for the government is ruled by unions. It's true all over the world.

You're supposed to be a civil servant from graduation to retirement

Break the mold, pay the price.

[Briggsy]

The civil service/public sector in Thailand has codified and generous rules regarding leave. I have worked with many public sector agencies/state enterprises/government departments. They are all very hierarchical.

It is inconceivable that your partner would not have known of the requirement to gain approval for leave before taking an extended break from work.

You would need to discover why she did not discuss this matter in depth with her superior and why she might have been surprised at losing her job.

Your acccount does not tally with the normal behaviour of public sector workers. They are usually very tuned in to what they are entitled to and what they are not entitled to do.

[organic]

It wasn't so long ago that taking time out to go travelling had very negative consequences for your career in the UK, civil service or private. And that was nothing to do with unions. There's a more sensible approach these days, but with rising unemployment, I can see it going back in that direction.

So it doesn't surprise me the same thing holds true in Thailand. Said partner should maybe look at starting their own business or going freelance on return, maybe?

[AdamBangkok]

Do you know that major airlines won't recognize experience in other airlines because of union rules ? You can be a captain in one of the top major worldwide airlines, if you join an other airline you have to start from the bottom ?

Not the case in my experince - a close friend of mine has moved from Malaysian Airlines to Cathay to ANA over the last few years with no change in his role.

[Tonto21]

Not a question about visas and migration.

The teaching forum seems to be for farang teaching in Thailand.

So better in General I think.

Edited November 22, 2010 by Tonto21

[scorecard]

5. In reply to Soutpeel....ah, this is the funny one - thanks for a laugh. I fear you may be engaged in some projection there - having trouble with ladies not wanting to go etc...

Your fears are misplaced, Mrs Soutpeel would leave Thailand tomorrow and the only reason I am still here is because of the job...

As regards your diatribe, philosophical review of the situation.....is it a day off at the "English school" or something ?...

I just called an old Thai colleague who worked for the education ministry for years, including, later in her career, in senior positions. She said she had never ever heard of or seen any such 'discrimination'.

She in turn called her sister (who I also know) who still works in a senior civil service position in the state enterprise policy office. She confirmed the same thing, never heard of it.

I might add, both of these ladies are very up front and say it like it is, neither of them would go for answers which 'sound nice'.

[crazydrummerpauly]

5. In reply to Soutpeel....ah, this is the funny one - thanks for a laugh. I fear you may be engaged in some projection there - having trouble with ladies not wanting to go etc...

Your fears are misplaced, Mrs Soutpeel would leave Thailand tomorrow and the only reason I am still here is because of the job...

As regards your diatribe, philosophical review of the situation.....is it a day off at the "English school" or something ?...

Nice one Soutpeel ! Touche etc. No, not just a 'day off' - 100% retired from all that nasty employment grind - and when

I did get ensnared in teaching it was uni philosophy - I swear far too much to be trusted to teach 'the language what i talk' !

[crazydrummerpauly]

5. In reply to Soutpeel....ah, this is the funny one - thanks for a laugh. I fear you may be engaged in some projection there - having trouble with ladies not wanting to go etc...

Your fears are misplaced, Mrs Soutpeel would leave Thailand tomorrow and the only reason I am still here is because of the job...

As regards your diatribe, philosophical review of the situation.....is it a day off at the "English school" or something ?...

I just called an old Thai colleague who worked for the education ministry for years, including, later in her career, in senior positions. She said she had never ever heard of or seen any such 'discrimination'.

She in turn called her sister (who I also know) who still works in a senior civil service position in the state enterprise policy office. She confirmed the same thing, never heard of it.

I might add, both of these ladies are very up front and say it like it is, neither of them would go for answers which 'sound nice'.

Thanks Scorecard for taking the time to post a really useful contribution.

Two points occur to me -

1. Netiher of the two civil-servants you mention were Teachers - that might be important.

2. Probably much more important - we have been told by other Thai teachers in government schools

that the problem arises if a teacher goes abroad for any more than the 2 months which is the overall

total annual leave available to Thai government school teachers. ( This is normally taken in two 1-month

breaks in April and October.) The suggestion seems to be that any teacher taking MORE than the 2 months

is treated as offering a virtual resignation from the Thai civil-service.

If you have the time to respond to these points, I'd be very grateful - please PM me if that would be more appropriate.

[crazydrummerpauly]

The civil service/public sector in Thailand has codified and generous rules regarding leave. I have worked with many public sector agencies/state enterprises/government departments. They are all very hierarchical.

It is inconceivable that your partner would not have known of the requirement to gain approval for leave before taking an extended break from work.

You would need to discover why she did not discuss this matter in depth with her superior and why she might have been surprised at losing her job.

Your acccount does not tally with the normal behaviour of public sector workers. They are usually very tuned in to what they are entitled to and what they are not entitled to do.

My original post is couched in terms of possible problems in the event of a trip abroad in the future,

so all of your past-tense comments are misplaced, but thanks for the idea of discussing a possible

long break from work with the immediate superior. My impression is that the rules governing Teachers

in government schools taking time off are not necessarily the same as those applicable to civil-servants

in general.