Aussies Help Thai Police Battle Sexual Exploitation

[Tom9999]

And who is paying for all this?<br><div>Air travel, hotel etc.</div><div>Some guys back in Australia who support this charity should better check what they are financing.</div><div><br></div><div>I wouldn't mind to get my travels to Thailand, Laos and Cambodia paid.</div><div><br></div><div>Don't get me wrong. I am all against child exploitation but the local Thai police could clean up a lot if they really wanted.  </div>

[Beetlejuice]

The questions are:

Do these girls want to be rescued?

If so, rescued into what?

Will these organisations house them? Feed them? Clothe them? Provide medical if required? Put them through further education? Guarantee them some sort of long term decent paid employment when they reach 18?

If not, these girls will quickly fall back into their old ways once they realise their only other alternative is to drift back into absolute poverty with no way of existing.

Perhaps the girls can see that there is more chance of making a living by laying on their backs than working on a noodle stall for 50 baht a day.

After probably suffering from years of abuse, uneducated and uncared for, now mentally impaired, they will require professional help in order to mould them into some sort of normal way of thinking and in preparation for their future ahead.

I am so dead against the tragic and evil practice of the exploitation of children in any shape or form, but when the do gooders decide to send in the cavalry as a one off good will deed, who at the end of the day is prepared to follow through what they have started and be responsible for the financial, long term care and welfare of these kids?

Edited November 19, 2010 by Beetlejuice

[garyh]

The questions are:

Do these girls want to be rescued?

If so, rescued into what?

Will these organisations house them? Feed them? Clothe them? Provide medical if required? Put them through further education? Guarantee them some sort of long term decent paid employment when they reach 18?

If not, these girls will quickly fall back into their old ways once they realise their only other alternative is to drift back into absolute poverty with no way of existing.

Perhaps the girls can see that there is more chance of making a living by laying on their backs than working on a noodle stall for 50 baht a day.

After probably suffering from years of abuse, uneducated and uncared for, now mentally impaired, they will require professional help in order to mould them into some sort of normal way of thinking and in preparation for their future ahead.

I am so dead against the tragic and evil practice of the exploitation of children in any shape or form, but when the do gooders decide to send in the cavalry as a one off good will deed, who at the end of the day is prepared to follow through what they have started and be responsible for the financial, long term care and welfare of these kids?

"Our main role is the rescue of children from traffickers. However, early on we realised that rescuing children was not enough. Once they enter sex work they can become socialised to their life there and it becomes difficult to convince them that they deserve something better. Many of them will be physically or psychologically damaged and face the prospect of death from AIDS. We realised that we needed to stop them from entering the sex trade in the first place.

Therefore, in tandem with our rescue work, we began a prevention program where we support educational infrastructure projects in the ethnic minority villages (a major source of trafficked children). We have found that the best way to prevent trafficking is to provide funds for education and family assistance but to link this assistance to a child's progression in school. Presently we support three villages in Thailand with various projects."

http://www.thegreyman.org/

[moetownblues]

There is a documentary simply titled "Shades of Grey" produced by the ABC. Listen to the man who started this organisation, listen to the children, the aid agenecies, Aust poplice and the thai police. This short film will answer all your questions and if some still want to knock this organisation then you need help.

[Buchholz]

This is all just an event for some group to get some press about what a bang up job they are doing to rid Thailand of this horrible crime. Arresting three 15 year old prostitutes is laughable. I could have done that in 15 minutes of walking out of my apartment door. I wonder how long they "investigated" the situation first.

Exactly, the word 'rescue' is used to make it an impressive story, but seems total shullbit as there's nothing about the girls being held prison, chained in a cellar and raped, so this is a complete nonsense story made for the international media machine.[/font]

The (probably christian, what else) 'humanitarian organization' are a bunch of whiners who need attention but choose the easy way and don't help anybody with this 'rescue'. The girls will hate loosing their job this way !

Read my last post.No religious affiliation.

If you read there blog site,maybe,just maybe you might form an opinion based on facts and evidence obtained.After extensive investigations.

With trying to counter a notable number of apologizing and enabling and detracting posts, it seems you have an uphill battle, KhunAussie.

Perhaps that would go a fair way in explaining why...

there doesn't seem to be much of a slowdown in the number of cases appearing in the Pattaya News Clipping Forum and the main Thailand News Clipping Forum.

[OLDAUSSIE]

There is a documentary simply titled "Shades of Grey" produced by the ABC. Listen to the man who started this organisation, listen to the children, the aid agenecies, Aust poplice and the thai police. This short film will answer all your questions and if some still want to knock this organisation then you need help.

You beat me to it.

I have read some of the disgusting comments on here and in my opinion some people need serious help.

Before you make a comment about the work The Grey Man are doing visit their web site and READ IT.

In that way you will find out (If you keep an open mind) what they are all about.

I Think they are doing a great job. They get my support 100% to the point that I have just made a donation. WHY Because they are not a bunch of Religious Freeks.

Regards and thank you greyman for the great work you are doing.

[MUYTHAI]

They saved three 15 year olds?

I can point to 20 bars in Pattaya alone with minors working it. This is a huge problem and a single sting here or there on a select bar is a waste of time. If they are going to drop the hammer, DROP IT!

Of course that would mean "face" would be lost because the locals only karaoke bars are FILLED with underage sex workers in Pattaya. Thus, that sting will never, ever happen. Oh... silly me, I forgot, the locals can have sex with 15 year olds. Carry on then, business as usual. 15 year olds are only "exploited" when foreigners screw them.

The sad fact is, Thailand is never going to even come close to cleaning up child prostitution. It is ingrained into their culture to have sex with young girls. In Udon Thani they fill an entire PARK with school kids after class so older Thai men can solicit their services. No one gives a crap.

How do you know the 'minors' you see in the Pattaya bars you visit are actually minors? Did you check their ID cards, etc.? How do you know they are actually sex workers and not cashiers, coyote girls, patrons, etc.? Do you realize that many Thai women, on average, look approximately 10 years younger than their same-age counterparts in the USA, Europe, Australia, etc.? I have seen 30 yo Thai women who could pass as 18 year old women in the US. The first time my sister saw photos of my 33 yo Thai girlfriend, my sister thought she was 19 yo. Maybe you should get the facts on each 'minor' concerning their age before you throw around accusations. I have been to many bars around Thailand and in Pattaya. I have yet to see all these minor sex workers working in these bars that you 'apparently' see. Am I going to the wrong bars? Also, who are the 'they' that fill up an entire park in Udon Thani with school kids after class so older Thai men can solicit their services? I don't believe this accusation. Who are the 'they' you are talking about that force all these school kids to be sex workers in the park? I believe they are just kids hanging out after school in the park. How old are these school kids? It is difficult to believe the scenario you create. I believe you have created this scenarion in your mind and this is not REALLY what is happening on the ground. Who are the 'they' you speak of and why don't you report them?

Sorry, I do not believe your accusations. I hate paedophiles, but I also dislike people like you who over exagerate, overreact, overstate, and disimmenate disinformation without getting the facts.

Just because YOU see some females that look like they are minors to YOU does not mean they ARE minors. Just because you see females hanging around someplace does not mean they ARE prostitutes.

Edited November 20, 2010 by MUYTHAI

[cdnvic]

Flame deleted

[slapout]

I know of few businesses in Thailand solely, farang owned. I applaud the organization who are seeking to eliminate the underage children from the scene, but lets include the Thai's who are a part of the business and put them up for public viewing also. It normally takes a Thai connection to get into the shady side of doing business in Thailand.

[moetownblues]

There is a documentary simply titled "Shades of Grey" produced by the ABC. Listen to the man who started this organisation, listen to the children, the aid agenecies, Aust poplice and the thai police. This short film will answer all your questions and if some still want to knock this organisation then you need help.

You beat me to it.

I have read some of the disgusting comments on here and in my opinion some people need serious help.

Before you make a comment about the work The Grey Man are doing visit their web site and READ IT.

In that way you will find out (If you keep an open mind) what they are all about.

I Think they are doing a great job. They get my support 100% to the point that I have just made a donation. WHY Because they are not a bunch of Religious Freeks.

Regards and thank you greyman for the great work you are doing.

Your quite right. So many people on here moan and complain about life in thailand but never get off thier fat &lt;deleted&gt; or put thier hands in thier pockets to help. Then we have the people at Grey man who are actually trying to do something positive in thier own time and at personal expense and the moaner and groaners want to cut them down. Grey man will never eliminate the problem and they are just a drop in the ocean but even if they restored the life of just one child wouldn't that single positive squash or the negatives being displayed on here.

I suggest people watch the documentary in full before commenting.

[axact]

I would love to think the 'Greyman' Organisation really do not get paid for their work and pay out of their own pocket for the upmarket hotels and airfares.

This I suspect does not happen.

NGO's are the often the dregs of society usually doing little, running around in expensive vehicles pushing their beliefs on a population who are not interested...Usually worse than missionaries.

The organisations reply of funding from the media blinded public and usually afford themselves massive paychecks when they are probably unemployable in the commercial world.

I also wonder if the person from the organisation who has been posting should really be involved as he is doing this work on the back of a guilt trip over a partners death, hardly a detatched voice of reason ?

Yes child exploitation is disgusting but if people think that exposing a few more westerners as travel pedos does anything more than provide you with funds then they are seriously mistaken. The problem is endemic in Thai society and there is no way the Thai government is going to let you stick your nose in that.

Child exploitation is rife but you choose to only pick on the sex exploitation is that because it brings in funding quicker or can you explain why the organisation focuses just on that area ?

A previous poster is correct in saying the Thai's let organisations like yours root out a few western bad apples because it takes the spotlight away from them and the real problem.

I really do get annoyed at NGO's holier than though attitudes. Most are driven by religion, yours is not but seems to be driven by the fact you are washed up ex army trying to find a reason for your existence or from guilt but I may be wrong

Please wipe out child abuse in your backyard before saving the rest of the world though.

To save me searching would the op please inform us of the salary the head of your organisation gets paid for his good works ?

[Nawtier]

Should the head of these organisations, the ones that start it, the ones that put all their effort into it...be paid ??

One would think anyone doing work, should be paid for their time and effort....but why not translate this to what the head of this organistation gets paid and what the head of an Aussie Bank gets paid and see who you think deserves it more......

[moetownblues]

I would love to think the 'Greyman' Organisation really do not get paid for their work and pay out of their own pocket for the upmarket hotels and airfares.

This I suspect does not happen.

NGO's are the often the dregs of society usually doing little, running around in expensive vehicles pushing their beliefs on a population who are not interested...Usually worse than missionaries.

The organisations reply of funding from the media blinded public and usually afford themselves massive paychecks when they are probably unemployable in the commercial world.

I also wonder if the person from the organisation who has been posting should really be involved as he is doing this work on the back of a guilt trip over a partners death, hardly a detatched voice of reason ?

Yes child exploitation is disgusting but if people think that exposing a few more westerners as travel pedos does anything more than provide you with funds then they are seriously mistaken. The problem is endemic in Thai society and there is no way the Thai government is going to let you stick your nose in that.

Child exploitation is rife but you choose to only pick on the sex exploitation is that because it brings in funding quicker or can you explain why the organisation focuses just on that area ?

A previous poster is correct in saying the Thai's let organisations like yours root out a few western bad apples because it takes the spotlight away from them and the real problem.

I really do get annoyed at NGO's holier than though attitudes. Most are driven by religion, yours is not but seems to be driven by the fact you are washed up ex army trying to find a reason for your existence or from guilt but I may be wrong

Please wipe out child abuse in your backyard before saving the rest of the world though.

To save me searching would the op please inform us of the salary the head of your organisation gets paid for his good works ?

Only one person in the organisation gets paid and that is a Thai in Bangkok. The rest are volunteers who use thier own funds for accomodation etc. You really did check anything before you engaged the brain and flushed the toilet did you. Most of the money raised is used for the children post rescue ie education housing and food. Listen to the children in the doco on how they are now getting an education sum even studying to be nurses etc.

[cup-O-coffee]

. I will however chastise them when they turn their backs on their noble deeds and turn to me, the general population, in an effort to curry financial support for a method I have a right to disagree on.

I have a son. I love him. I take care of him.

So, you being the general population and voice of all can tell the likes of greyman to stop what they do because it is a fruitless saga ?

When were you voted the voice of the general population by the way...I must have missed that broadcast.

If you know of some magical software out there that can preclude you from graymans and any other similar organisation marketing approach, then please let them have it as i am sure they would prefer to direct target people that do want to help, or at least might want to.

It is a fact that these organisations need money to help with what they do....if you do not like that, then it is so much easier for you to ignore them, than it is for them to not market to you.

I actually agree with many of your points, but i do not think that as you do, people should not do anything when it comes to young children.

You have a son...good for you, so do I as well as a daughter and an adopted one to boot.

Now imagine your son as I did recently about mine, I am not sure how old your son is, but simply change the ages here to suit your sons age......recently I watched a video on child sexual abuse....it was not graphic, but the shots it did show were quite emotional to a father with a son of the same age as depicted in the video. The boy, 8yo was tied up, arms, hands to ankles, legs, gagged and blindfolded and lying on a bed. That is all that was to it.....but then place your son in that position, imagine what would be going through your sons mind and wondering where you were and why this is happening. That is a sickening thought and if that child, my child, anyones child tied up on that bed could be rescued by the Greyman....then what you are saying is you think it is a futile effort.

It might be futile in that he is just one, but that one is your or my son say....is it futile then ?....there might be 10 more waiting to replace him...but should he be left there and be number 11 ?

You paint a broad brush in that every child in this position is there because of parental neglect or sold there....what about the ones abducted and their parents are worried sick if they will ever see their child again and what is happening to them right now. If this child was theirs....would it be ok to leave them because it will only be replaced tomorrow ?

Thanks for the comment. I read your post several times and see nothing more than a hysterical and unrealistic reaction to truths you and I have no power over. It is as simple as that. I mean it when I thank you for your sincerity, and I do not mean to be harsh, but I hope you respect what I feel strongly about as you read on.

You have a right to feel responsible for every human being that is conceived. That is a reliable weakness that often falls prey to evil people. Your use of a strawman, by imagining convenient horrors (a small boy gagged and bound upon a bed) is unmoving to say the least simply because you imagined it. I can spend my time all day imagining horrible things, but there is no future in it. There is too much reality to take the place of imagining, but I am aware of my limitations, and I choose what I allow into my mind over the course of my day. I will, however, respond in kind to that further down.

My discussion is not about the children as much as it is about people who feel that their lives are inadequate (watch the movies). These people get it in their head (a vision?) to start a religious crusade. These people then expect everyone to slap them on the back and glad hand them and throw a parade in their honor, and give them VIP seating at every event.

But what is worst of all about crusaders and their acolytes, such as yourself (it would appear) is that you all seem to expect that just because you make a personal decision to choose a "Noble" cause (no matter how stupid and futile) that you are touched by the hand of God and granted some sort of immunity from criticism and scrutiny from normal, everyday people such as myself. Subsequently, you feel that you can tread people's views under foot because you are doing something that no one in their right mind would disagree with, except in whispers. I have had more than my fill of people like this throughout my life, and it is disingenuous to the reasons for existing. It clouds the true purpose of being.

Greyman is a feel-good thing. It is like a ship on the ocean. The ocean is the Thai system. Greyman floats upon the Thai system and sometimes the Thai system will give up a few fish; but at the end of the day Greyman is at the mercy of the ocean, and so are all of the fish in that ocean, whom Greyman would like to catch. What began as a pure idea has now become corrupted by compromise. Greyman compromises their mission by not going after the people they can stop. If Mr. Curtis is indeed into intelligence and counter-intelligence as he says, I am sure he knows who the real culprits are, yet he draws the line at the few scrawny fish the ocean gives up to him. As former top-notch soldiers, this compounds their insincerity more and more, each time they compromise further. These men are set up to do a little vigilante work, aren't they?

You describe what an angry father would do were his boy gagged and bound to a bed, then I ask you, if you have the means to do a little mop-up, and do not do it, but instead dance with the devil; well... that is why I am a non-believer in this crusade. If these kids were kidnapped Australian citizens being held hostage by the Thai system, I gather the reaction would be different? IMHO people who deal in child slavery and abuse deserve a few ounces of lead in their noggin', no more, no less, and absolutely zero discussion.

If every human trafficker and politician and businessman connected to human trafficking knew that they were a human target with an invisible number on it, they would think twice. They would live everyday knowing that this could be their last day on earth, because there is someone out there who feels that strongly about what they do to children.

You ask me about wanting Mr. Curtis to save my child? No! Absolutely not. My child would be gone and dead before Mr. Curtis waited around for the green light from his corrupt Thai buddies. I would rather fund a secret organization that found these people and put a bullet in their heads, instead of compromising. I would like to fund something like this because I could not do it myself due to lack of ability and intelligence. That is why I referred to the movie "Taken". The way the father dealt with the politician in the elevator exactly describes how I feel this issue should be dealt with. Start from the bottom and clean up as you go all the way to the top. If you do not feel this way, and the means and methods are there to do it, then you are talking out of the side of your mouth. What makes the rescue schedule time line any faster or slower regarding the kidnapping of a politician's fat, spoiled brat, or a neighbor selling a malnutritioned urchin in a mountain village?

I don't know who you are.

I don't know what you want.

If you are looking for ransom,

I can tell you I don't have money.

But what I do have are a very particular set of skills;

skills I have acquired over a very long career.

Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you.

If you let my daughter go now, that'll be the end of it.

I will not look for you,

I will not pursue you.

But if you don't, I will look for you,

I will find you,

and I will kill you.

-------------------------

The stench of insincerity pervades my senses regarding what could really be done for all children, but is only done at random, and only for wealthy people. They call it a war. Well, they tried that crap with Vietnam, and we all know about the Senator's sons. It is not a war against human trafficking; it is a police action, designed to treat the symptoms and create a cottage industry with acceptable losses as collateral damage. If it were a war, there would be reports every day about well known and little known people dying from bullet holes to their heads, and discoveries of huge sweat shops in run-down buildings.

Don't deny me the right to say it like it is, according to my interpretation, and please dispense with the strawman if you wish to criticize. People are always the cannon fodder for rich people's greed. Children are no exception, and neither are goody two-shoes crusaders who allow a leash to be placed upon their neck by the villains.

You failed to read all these posts, or you would have read somewhere that I do admire noble deeds, no matter how futile, however, there is no requirement for me to feel compelled to support these deeds that are futile. Nor is there any altruistic law that forbids me from exposing the simple truths that a lot of these crusaders are in it for the personal glory and satisfaction. I have very little tolerance for people who create their own personal agenda and make a religion out of it. It is easy to see these people, because invariably they always start holding their hands out because they see their vision dying for lack of funds (important note: THEIR vision).

I also have a very low tolerance for acolytes of these sprouting, religious crusades, who think people like me are fair game for the "You are either with us, or against us!" campaign. I am not with you or against you, so please do not try to label me and find a place for me in your feel-good crusade.

[moetownblues]

I can think of only one reason why those on here are opposed to the work of the gray man and other organisations. Need I say more.

[SPIKECM]

Why is there never under any headline about defeating sexual exploitation, something like "warnings given out to all innocent farangs arriving at Bangkok! Do not leave your brains at the airport" and some advice on survival for single male travellers, for example, on how to know when Thai girls lie to you..... when their lips move. The word "exploitation" always makes me laugh in Thailand. Most Thai people have come too far up the evolutionary ladder to use the word "exploitation". Mostly the exploitation is the other way around.

Also "human trafficking". A nice gravy train for the NGO's, but the reality is that for the vast majority, people trafficked into Thailand do it on their own free will and their lives become far better as a result. The NGO's would be happier if the Shan people stayed at home, but the Shan people seem to know better.

On under age sex, we in the west are a bit hypocritical. The Sun newspaper (Britain's favourite) used to have 16 year olds on page 3. 16 is the age for marriage in the UK. It is hardly surprising that another culture uses a one year different as an age of consent. I really don't think Thailand has any tolerance of pre-pubescent sex, which I would rather think as the true definition of a pedophile. It is just that there is more of a cultural tolerance of paid-for sex and sex with young post-pubescent girls. This is just a tad less hypocritical than us farangs. The main NGO's working against sex with minors in the north of Thailand have grabbed 18 as the age limit which may or may not be the legal limit in Thailand. This means though that if anyone has sex with a 17 year old in Thailand this is deemed by them as "sex with a minor" and the men themselves no doubt as pedophiles. That though is surprising as the age of consent in the likes of the UK is 16.

The trouble is in Thailand that the sex industry is so widespread and lucrative that girls from the provinces can't wait to get into it. For many, waiting until the official age of 20 before they can work in a bar is just too long and their aspirations for the good life can't wait. The probability, that any young girl from a family where one member is a sex worker, that she herself will end up in the sex industry, is very high. The NGO's may like to foster the idea that dirty old men come to Thailand and have sex with poor disenfranchised poor girls, but the reality in today's Thailand is quite different. If you want to solve a problem you first of all have to understand why there is a problem. The NGO's and the likes may wish to see young girls on an assembly line making plastic toys, but that is not what these girls want. These girls may well ask, "where is my human right to choose?". It is not good that the best way for a girl to get on in life is through the sex industry, but it is a reality in today's Thailand.

Sex with children though, I wholeheartedly agree, is an assault on human dignity, which any government has a duty to control. Children need protection from exploitation but there are two problems with executing the control of under age prostitution. One is that Thailand has a police force and a legal system which is corrupt beyond imagination. The second is what is badly needed is a clearly defined age limit. At present in Thailand there seems to be three: 15, 18 and 20 and that is confusing, especially with a police force which in some places run their own brothels.

Edited November 20, 2010 by SPIKECM

[Johpa]

Oh come on. As good and decent as some of these groups and NGOs are, nothing significant will be accomplished until both the Thai government and the foreign governments with influence here, such as the US, UK, and yes even the Aussies, come out against the Thai police establishment and call it out for what it is, the largest organized crime syndicate in the Kingdom.

[cup-O-coffee]

I can think of only one reason why those on here are opposed to the work of the gray man and other organisations. Need I say more.

I do not recall reading any posts where there was opposition; only disagreement and lack of belief in these crusades. I believe you have detoured down a dead-end Soi, and indeed should say no more.

[Buchholz]

I can think of only one reason why those on here are opposed to the work of the gray man and other organisations. Need I say more.

I do not recall reading any posts where there was opposition; only disagreement and lack of belief in these crusades. I believe you have detoured down a dead-end Soi, and indeed should say no more.

disagreement + disbelief does not equal opposition???

[cup-O-coffee]

I can think of only one reason why those on here are opposed to the work of the gray man and other organisations. Need I say more.

I do not recall reading any posts where there was opposition; only disagreement and lack of belief in these crusades. I believe you have detoured down a dead-end Soi, and indeed should say no more.

disagreement + disbelief does not equal opposition???

Okay; I'll bite, but only because you are being selectively obtuse, and setting very small perimeters to mean" "any obstruction of the flow of the idea means you are a pedophile and condone pedophilia". That is a bludgeon that crusaders use to brow beat anyone who has a dissenting opinion. In your case, I think you are smarter than that, yet choose to be annoying and bait a person on by not allowing them the same leeway you allow the crusaders.

In other words, start a noble cause, and you do not come under scrutiny. Disagree with the methods and intentions of a noble cause, and you have to jump through hoops to avoid condemnation and burning at the stake by the acolytes.

Firstly, one is a coward to not simply come out and make the allegation. Secondly, as I suggested before, one reveals their megalomaniac intentions about their crusade and their vision of its divinity.

The reality is that the opposition I have read regards opposition towards treating the symptoms (the questionable methods and intentions) rather than finding a cure. The cure is easy, and it seems that only the loving father or mother of a kidnapped and abused child has the cojones to carry it out. The results are a smoking gun, and Mr. Curtis would be out of a job!

Edited November 20, 2010 by cup-O-coffee

[supaprik]

They saved three 15 year olds?

I can point to 20 bars in Pattaya alone with minors working it. This is a huge problem and a single sting here or there on a select bar is a waste of time. If they are going to drop the hammer, DROP IT!

Of course that would mean "face" would be lost because the locals only karaoke bars are FILLED with underage sex workers in Pattaya. Thus, that sting will never, ever happen. Oh... silly me, I forgot, the locals can have sex with 15 year olds. Carry on then, business as usual. 15 year olds are only "exploited" when foreigners screw them.

The sad fact is, Thailand is never going to even come close to cleaning up child prostitution. It is ingrained into their culture to have sex with young girls. In Udon Thani they fill an entire PARK with school kids after class so older Thai men can solicit their services. No one gives a crap.

Excuse me Tokay, normally I try not to respond negatively to their members posts but on this occasion I must respond to your idiotic ill informed statements.

Your statements are so incorrect they must surely be based purely on your OWN uneducated opinions.

Here are some actual FACTS...

The Grey Man organization has done and continues to do EXCELLENT work in S.E.Asia saving/rescuing dozens of children.

Normally their work is not publicised and why this latest work was i can only surmise it was because Thai Police were involved and that is NORMAL for them, we all know how they love a good story to self promote.

This organisations members pay all expenses from their own pockets.

They risk their lives to assist others.

So before you belittle what they do please give some thought to what YOU actually do about this, I will assist you, YOU do NOTHING, you sit on your arse and talk rubbish about something you know very little if anything about. You claim you know of "20 different bars " of underage girls working "just outside your door" then why not report it? The reason is either apathy or the girls just aren't there and you just like to spout off..don't use your lame excuses about how you have told police but they do nothing as we all know that is crap also, instead of knocking these fine people from Gray Man assist them to help those that cannot themselves..

i say..ONE saved 15 year old is better than NONE.....well done Grey Man and on this occasion also BIB....

Edited November 20, 2010 by supaprik

[SPIKECM]

Yes, other countries have problems with large organised crime syndicates, in Thailand they have the police.

Oh come on. As good and decent as some of these groups and NGOs are, nothing significant will be accomplished until both the Thai government and the foreign governments with influence here, such as the US, UK, and yes even the Aussies, come out against the Thai police establishment and call it out for what it is, the largest organized crime syndicate in the Kingdom.

Edited November 20, 2010 by SPIKECM

[reason1]

My comment about peeing in the ocean is because the real Job has not yet started if it is being recognized for the huge task it is. Not enuff just a few girls rescued and Aussies made heroes

[Max4243]

I can think of only one reason why those on here are opposed to the work of the gray man and other organisations. Need I say more.

Can't see any poster opposing the Grey Man work as you stated posters here are opposing. Posters here just don't agree with the way they go about doing their work like raiding bars etc. If they want to help, they should work closely with Interpol and let the Interpol work with the Thai police. The Grey Man Organisation should support these countries with other ways of support like education etc.

Posters here I believe do support any organisations trying to curb underage sex trade be it in Thailand or SEA countries. Moetownblues, please do read all the postings carefully before posting. Sure, you don't need to say more as you are getting the whole picture wrong in the first place.

[OLDAUSSIE]

I can think of only one reason why those on here are opposed to the work of the gray man and other organisations. Need I say more.

Can't see any poster opposing the Grey Man work as you stated posters here are opposing. Posters here just don't agree with the way they go about doing their work like raiding bars etc. If they want to help, they should work closely with Interpol and let the Interpol work with the Thai police. The Grey Man Organisation should support these countries with other ways of support like education etc.

Posters here I believe do support any organisations trying to curb underage sex trade be it in Thailand or SEA countries. Moetownblues, please do read all the postings carefully before posting. Sure, you don't need to say more as you are getting the whole picture wrong in the first place.

I think you should go and read some of the comments on here, not only against the Grey Man but also against the Thai people.

[Bagwan]

So do those who cannot find any empathy for the actions and objectives of The Grey Man think that Lord Shaftesbury, William Wilberforce and Thomas Barnado were all wrong? I venture that there are many here whose lives would not have been so rosy without the actions of these great men who took on City Hall - and won. A great journey begins with one small step.

I suggest that some need to read a book called 'Sex Slaves'   ISBN 1 86049 903 1  It will greatly  enhanced understanding of the lot of young people throughout Southern and South Eastern Asia.

Barnardo’s vision today is that the lives of all children and young people should be free from poverty, abuse and discrimination. Barnardo’s believe in the abused, the vulnerable, the forgotten and the neglected. We pledge to support them, stand up for them and bring out the best in each and every child.

This vision is the same as the one Thomas Barnardo had when he came to London in 1866 and found children sleeping in the streets and being forced to beg for food. It was in 1867 that he set up the Ragged School and started helping the abused, vulnerable, forgotten and neglected children of East London and his work still continues today.

By the time Thomas Barnardo died in 1905, the charity he founded ran 96 homes caring for more than 8,500 children. Following his death his work continued and now Barnardo’s helps more than 100,000 children, young people and their families every year. Like Thomas Barnardo, we believe that every child deserves the best start in life and the chance to fulfill their potential.

[philw]

I can think of only one reason why those on here are opposed to the work of the gray man and other organisations. Need I say more.

I do not recall reading any posts where there was opposition; only disagreement and lack of belief in these crusades. I believe you have detoured down a dead-end Soi, and indeed should say no more.

disagreement + disbelief does not equal opposition???

no it does not.

sorry

[philw]

I can think of only one reason why those on here are opposed to the work of the gray man and other organisations. Need I say more.

I do not recall reading any posts where there was opposition; only disagreement and lack of belief in these crusades. I believe you have detoured down a dead-end Soi, and indeed should say no more.

disagreement + disbelief does not equal opposition???

Okay; I'll bite, but only because you are being selectively obtuse, and setting very small perimeters to mean" "any obstruction of the flow of the idea means you are a pedophile and condone pedophilia". That is a bludgeon that crusaders use to brow beat anyone who has a dissenting opinion. In your case, I think you are smarter than that, yet choose to be annoying and bait a person on by not allowing them the same leeway you allow the crusaders.

In other words, start a noble cause, and you do not come under scrutiny. Disagree with the methods and intentions of a noble cause, and you have to jump through hoops to avoid condemnation and burning at the stake by the acolytes.

Firstly, one is a coward to not simply come out and make the allegation. Secondly, as I suggested before, one reveals their megalomaniac intentions about their crusade and their vision of its divinity.

The reality is that the opposition I have read regards opposition towards treating the symptoms (the questionable methods and intentions) rather than finding a cure. The cure is easy, and it seems that only the loving father or mother of a kidnapped and abused child has the cojones to carry it out. The results are a smoking gun, and Mr. Curtis would be out of a job!

yes, agree 100%

[Buchholz]

no it does not.

sorry

yes, agree 100%

Could you expand on either of these?

[axact]

I found this on Lt cambodia Blogspot, Same problem, different country. but it is exactly the sort of situation greyman seems guilty of promoting

"One evening last year I was relaxing over a beer after a late dinner at a bar & grill on the riverfront here in Phnom Penh. It was about 10:30 or 11:00PM. At the bar sat a 50-something Western tourist and a Vietnamese taxi girl chatting and laughing together. Four young tourists strolled in and sat at a table near the open front of the restaurant - two couples, 20-somethings I think. I was sitting at the near end of the bar between the two groups and after a short while noticed that the tourists at the table seemed to be grumbling about the guy at the bar. They were leaning in together, speaking in low raspy tones, shooting occasional sharp glances and other pointed little gestures in his direction.

Distracting their attention momentarily, a pair of tiny 'flower girls' wandered in from the street - perhaps 8 or 9 years old, barely tall enough to see over the tables, ragged but clean and laden with doughnut-shaped flower rings and broad Cambodian smiles. They approached the tourists and began their sales chant, pleading "flower, 1500 riel, 1500 riel, flower, OK?, mam, OK?" The tourist women were immediately captivated by the little girls. "They're so cute," one of the women commented, stroking the girl's cheek. "How old are you?...What's your name?" they queried in cutsy sing-song tones. The girls leaned into the women, giggled, batted their eyes and repeated their sales chant. The couples inspected the flowers and gently bargained them down to 1000 riel each (25 cents), eventually buying a couple of the flower rings.

After admiring their purchase, the tourist women quickly fell back to talking about the guy at the bar, now a bit louder but still difficult to understand over the usual pub din, "blah, blah, sex...blah, blah, older than ...blah, blah, disgusting..." Meanwhile, the males at the table had begun bargaining with a Vietnamese shoeshine boy who was about 12 years old. The boy wanted $1 to shine their shoes. They were only willing to pay 50 cents (the 'right price' is 12 cents, but I am not saying anything). They struck a deal. The boy took the shoes outside where he squatted next to a puddle in the street for a little water to clean the mud from the soles.

As I was watching the boy work, my attention was jarred back into the bar by a loudly-spoken "CREEPY!" echoing across the room. The guy at the bar had his hand on the taxi girl's knee and one of the tourist women was glaring at him intently, talking loudly to her friend, her face turning red with anger. As she spoke, her volume progressively increased so that everybody in the bar could hear, "...CREEPY ...sick ...HER FATHER ...police ...children ...SEX tourist ...ped..." The guy at the bar ignored them, or didn't hear them, and carried on. Continuing to talk amongst themselves, the people at the table seemed to get more and more agitated. Finally they called over the bartender, pointed at the guy at the bar and made some sort of demand. The only words I heard clearly were, "sick old bastard," "police" and "sex tourist." The bartender shrugged and looked like he was trying to explain something to them. Abruptly, the tourists stood up, threw a twenty on the table and left in a huff, forgetting the flowers in their haste.

These young tourists, particularly the women, were absolutely blinded by disgust for what they saw - an 'old white man' with a 'young Asian girl' in an apparently sexual relationship. They completely missed the plight of the 8 year old flower girls, working 10-hours shifts, late into night, hawking 1000 riel flowers for some unknown flower girl pimp. They did not think to ask why an 8 year old is working at 10:30PM. Or why an 8 year old is working at all. Or who is controlling these children. Or where the money is going. Or whether they were indentured servants or abused or even slaves as they might very well be. In fact, these tourists happily contributed to the plight of these child laborers, buying their trinkets (and bargaining them down 12 cents,) ignoring their situation and sending them on their way into the night.

Nor did they raise any questions about the 12-year-old shoeshine boy, who is probably an illegal immigrant living on the street, not going to school, not getting enough to eat, perhaps sniffing glue to pass the time and assuage his hunger, and certainly paying tribute to a street gang for the privilege of shining shoes in a tourist area. Where will these children be after 5 or 10 years working the street for pennies? These tourists didn't think to ask, let alone do something about it. They were preoccupied with sex. They were blinded by revulsion and rage at the sight of a middle aged man with a much younger woman.

In fact, I've known this particular taxi girl for more than 4 years. I've never used her sexual services but I have played pool with her at the bar dozens of times, we've had drinks together a few times and we occasionally share a plate of noodles on the street at the end of the evening. She is at least 25 years old, divorced and has a three year old daughter. She's not particularly young looking for a Vietnamese girl, but to the unaccustomed eye she may look younger. She works as a prostitute because she needs to support herself and her child, because it's what she knows, and because she has no other options if she wants to make that kind of money. And these tourists preferred to try to 'save' this adult woman from the 'old man,' and perhaps from herself as well, rather than give one thought to the 8 year olds that sold them the pretty flowers or the 12 year old that shined their shoes so well.

One has to wonder about the motivation of many of these westerners who seem so focused on the SEA sex scene. If asked, these people would probably say that they are against the exploitation of women and children, or trafficking, or pedophilia, or slavery, or some such worthy ideal. Yet when confronted with actual cases of child exploitation and even slavery, they ignore it in favor of the 'creepy' sexual practices of consenting adults. Some might say that it can be blamed, at least in part, on their ignorance, though IMO it shouldn't take too much thinking to realize that there is something seriously amiss about 8 year olds hawking flowers in tourist bars in the middle of the night. No, it's not ignorance. It is their fixation on sex and the sexual behavior of others that distracts them from the real problems of real people. Yes, of course there is exploitation and other horrible things going on in the SEA sex business. But the focus on sex is so intense for many (if not most) of these western do-gooders, it is to the exclusion of real abuses and exploitation, and to the reasons that all of these people end up in these difficult and exploitive situations."