US Captors Of Alleged Arms Dealer Viktor Bout Detail Thailand Sting

[mark45y]

Former Translator Bout is the most dangerous man? hahaha. The USA spent a lot of money to catch him and he will guilty anyway even he would have been born only 3 years ago.

If he would have knew Russia's secrets he would be dead in Thai prison immediately. This is the rules in this game. I just think the terrorist usually buy cheap Chineses AK47 or even Nortn Korean.

Russian cannot sell hand-missiles because nobody guarantees that Chechen rebels will not get it tomorrow.

1995, Bout, set up several airfreight operations in Ostend, Belgium, where Belgian intelligence began investigating him for possible gunrunning. Meanwhile, the cia was picking up the first reports of his activities in the Great Lakes region of East Africa. And British intelligence officials in Sierra Leone, worried about how their growing peacekeeping force there would contend with the country’s steady weapons flow, quietly set their sights on him, too.

February 2002, the Belgian government issued an international arrest warrant for Bout, charging him with laundering $325 million between 1994 and 2001

A 2004 Bosnian intelligence report said that “Victor Bout in collaboration with Hasan Cengic is transporting weapons to Chechnya” via a Bout front company.

On April 26, 2005, then Assistant Treasury Sec applied new U.S. economic sanctions against 30 companies in Bout’s financial orbit

The UN followed six months later.

[Farah and Braun,)

[anterian]

These comments remind me of , "let he who is without sin throw the first stone". Drugs, arms, people are trafficked around the world, it is a high risk, high return game played by both nations and individuals. In any high risk game there are winners and losers, Victor stayed a player too long and crossed the line.

[animatic]

There are 300+ million Americans. No wonder some are narrow minded parochial and can't see past their noses.

There are also many who can think circles around most other humans, in a ratio resembling that in most social groupings. And even more who are of average intelligence, kind hearted, moderately well traveled, know other cultures, and appreciate common sense, These last don't seem to get the big press... because they don't stand out. But they represent the great majority of American citizens. That doesn't mean they are also the motivated voter zealot blocks that win congressional elections regularly.

Edited November 19, 2010 by animatic

[mark45y]

It's funny how no matter what the US does, no matter how many they kill, no matter whom they arm and years later end up making an enemy, they are always above persecution.

I can already hear the death to ChiangMaiThai chants from the USA patriots here, but if you calm down for a moment and think about it, the rhetotic coming from the DEA and CIA 'most dangerous man on earth' etc etc. it is beyond ironic and beyond hypocritical. Somehow that badge and that authority that comes with (US) government office makes everything you do okay.

I agree.

Suggest a read through this (especially the second rankings chart): Who is the world's biggest arms dealer?

Supplier↓ 2000↓ 2001↓ 2002↓ 2003↓ 2004↓ 2005↓ 2006↓ 2007↓ 2008↓ 2009↓

1 United States 7220 5694 5091 5596 6750 6600 7394 7658 6090 6795

2 Russia 3985 6011 5773 5202 6260 5321 6156 5243 6026 4469

3 Germany 1603 821 892 1697 1067 1875 2510 3002 2499 2473

4 France 1055 1270 1308 1288 2194 1633 1577 2342 1831 1851

5 UK 1484 1257 915 617 1180 915 808 987 1027 1024

6 Netherlands 280 203 243 342 208 583 1221 1322 554 608

7 China 272 496 515 632 282 306 599 412 544 870

8 Italy 189 217 400 312 214 743 525 706 424 588

9 Sweden 46 830 185 515 305 537 417 367 457 353

10 Israel 354 360 414 358 612 315 282 379 271 760

11 Ukraine 288 661 244 430 202 281 557 799 269 214

12 Spain 46 7 120 156 56 108 757 565 603 925

13 Switzerland 176 193 157 174 250 267 306 324 467 270

14 Canada 110 129 170 255 268 235 231 343 236 177

15 South Korea 8 165 N/A 104 29 48 94 228 80 163

Edited November 19, 2010 by mark45y

[Lancelot]

Is that loud enough for some people? To date, all of the protests have railed about the evil Americans, the abrogation of Mr. Bout's personal liberties, the intrusions of the state into commercial enterprise, etc. and now the full story is coming out. And best of all it is transcribed and recorded for the whole world to see.

No, for the anti USA crowd nothing is loud enough. If the US ceased to exist, the anti USA gang would shift their frustrations to another country. They are just unhappy people that need a whipping boy and, for now, the US fits the bill

PS-If Mr. Bout were as innocent as some proclaim, why would he have shown any interest in meeting FARC rebels with the express purpose of selling them weapons to kill people?

Edited November 19, 2010 by Lancelot

[mark45y]

he was just a business man. i don't think he had any politcal motivation behinde who he sold to. bascially i u paid u received.

there are many gun companies and dealers round the world. what seperates him from them is that he wa doing it illegally.

morally he is no different than the companies that make the guns in the first place but like i say u cannot do the time then don't do the crime.

the reason why he did it illegally is so he could make more money. it is that simple. running legit business is just too expensive.

To stop wars, genocide and murder and mayhem in general the United Nations among others ban everyone from selling weapons to certain governments or areas of the world.

For example the Brits had peacekeeping troops in Sierra Leone, and weapons sales were banned there but Bout sold them weapons anyway. The difference between Bout and the others was that Bout was an integrated operation, “says Johan Peleman, a Belgian researcher who was hired by the United Nations to help investigate Bout.” “He can source the arms, he organizes the transport, and he can source the financing.” His genius was his ability to provide a door-to-door operation from the arsenal to the buyer.

The British Special Forces tried to arrest him in Greece but failed.

How many British troops were shot because of Bout? I don't know. I do know that in war guns hurt more people than spears and clubs.

[markt7081]

anti-personnel mines

Is that loud enough for some people? To date, all of the protests have railed about the evil Americans, the abrogation of Mr. Bout's personal liberties, the intrusions of the state into commercial enterprise, etc. and now the full story is coming out. And best of all it is transcribed and recorded for the whole world to see.

Columbia is a signatory of the landmine treaty. As such, any sale of landmines for use in Columbia would be a clear contravention of the applicable law. It would also be a violation of Columbian sovereignty. Where are all the bleaters now?

And just so the whiners don't have any reason to chime up with their usual , but the USA wah, wah, wah chant,, please note that according to the International Campaign to Ban Landmines, the U.S. has not used anti-personnel mines since 1991, has had an export ban in place since 1992 and has not produced them since 1997. It is also the world's largest individual contributor for mine action and victim assistance programmes. Seems to me, the USA acted to prevent a sales agent of landmines from continuing to distribute these items.

I'd like to see Mr. Bout explain to a room filled with limbless children why it was ok to sell landmines.

I fully agree with the posters sentiments, but I dont understand.

USA have not used themselves since 1991, havnt exported any since 1992, stopped production in 1997

So where did the production between 1992 and 1997 go?

[geriatrickid]

What's with the nonsense of tossing put lists of the "biggest vendors of arms"? If a country sells an airplane at US $20million a pop vs. a country that turns out side arms at $200 a unit, then the numbers are going to reflect that. Only an idiot relies on such a listing. These lists are useless without a statement of the items sold. Germany looks like a big armaments vendor, but guess who supplies Australia, Canada and even the USA with its G Wagon vehicles? D-uh.

Mr. Bout is complicit in murder, rape, and genocide. Deal with it. Stop using his arrest as an excuse to bash the Americans as it just means that you support a man that profited from inflicting pain on suffering of others.

[mark45y]

And for sure there will be at least one other person to stand and take his place as the new merchant of death.

I doubt it. Not in the short term. There were only two anyway. Basil Zaharoff and Victor Bout. Like Hitler or Stalin. Those kind of people don't come along all the time.

[bbradsby]

Lots of nievete being posted in this thread. And before you read further, I'm not defending the USA in this post.

The Bout take-down is not about jurisprudence, but instead about 21st Century warfare where sovereign states are attacked by individuals as well as other sovereign states. Hello 9/11, parcel bombs on aircraft, and Mumbai Oberoi Hotel attack. Bout dealt weapons because he could. The US took him down for the same reason, and for the fact that he was operating against their strategic interests (as well as the children of West Africa. I've been there, and the aftermath is not pretty) at a high enough level of irritant factor. No whiners, please, at this level of poker. Even Bout had the balls to say "the game is up." He knew the risk/reward calculus of the game.

Since old-school military invasions are being repeatedly shown to be expensive, politically damaging and ultimately ineffective to counter an occult or guerilla adversary (is the Pentagon finally remembering that the US War for Independence against Colonialist England was won via guerilla tactics?), war is now fought at the surgical, personal level first. Does anyone think the Wikileaks founder's new 'personal' dilemma is coincidental to his efforts in leaking classified US data?

Just describing the new/old landscape of war.

Edited November 19, 2010 by bbradsby

[Tod Daniels]

Just to lighten this thread up a little bit. ..

Here are some memorable quotes from the movie "Lord of War".

Spoken by Nicolas Cage playing 'Yuri Orlov;

"I sell to leftists, and rightists. I sell to pacifists, but they're not the most regular customers.

"I sell guns to every army but the Salvation Army."

"Back then, I didn't sell to Osama Bin Laden. Not because of moral reasons, but because he was always bouncing checks"

"The primary market was Africa, Eleven major conflicts involving twenty three countries in less than a decade. A gunrunner's wet dream. At the time the West couldn't care less, they had a white war in what was left of Yugoslavia."

And the best quote!

"The reason I'll be released is the same reason you think I'll be convicted. I do rub shoulders with some of the most vile, sadistic men calling themselves leaders today. But some of these men are the enemies of your enemies. And while the biggest arms dealer in the world is your boss; the President of the United States, who ships more merchandise in a day than I do in a year, sometimes it's embarrassing to have his fingerprints on the guns. Sometimes he needs a freelancer like me to supply forces he can't be seen supplying. So, you call me evil, but unfortunately for you, I'm a necessary evil.

Granted that was a fiction movie and quite possibly a great deal of creative license was taken in the dialog. But I think that last quote possibly carries at least a little truth in it.

Funny how Russia in the international press immediately softened their fire and brimstone rhetoric once Vic hit US soil. Other than crying ‘foul’ in the media here, they’re pretty quite in “real press”.

Who really knows how this dog & pony show will eventually play out?

Any way you spin it, whether you’re pro-US, or a US-basher (like so many posers, errr posters on T/V, it can’t be bad to get someone like Victor Bout ‘off the proverbial streets’ can it?

[animatic]

anti-personnel mines

Is that loud enough for some people? To date, all of the protests have railed about the evil Americans, the abrogation of Mr. Bout's personal liberties, the intrusions of the state into commercial enterprise, etc. and now the full story is coming out. And best of all it is transcribed and recorded for the whole world to see.

Columbia is a signatory of the landmine treaty. As such, any sale of landmines for use in Columbia would be a clear contravention of the applicable law. It would also be a violation of Columbian sovereignty. Where are all the bleaters now?

And just so the whiners don't have any reason to chime up with their usual , but the USA wah, wah, wah chant,, please note that according to the International Campaign to Ban Landmines, the U.S. has not used anti-personnel mines since 1991, has had an export ban in place since 1992 and has not produced them since 1997. It is also the world's largest individual contributor for mine action and victim assistance programmes. Seems to me, the USA acted to prevent a sales agent of landmines from continuing to distribute these items.

I'd like to see Mr. Bout explain to a room filled with limbless children why it was ok to sell landmines.

I fully agree with the posters sentiments, but I dont understand.

USA have not used themselves since 1991, havn't exported any since 1992, stopped production in 1997

So where did the production between 1992 and 1997 go?

Stockpiled for a shooting war, just in case. Classic military thinking.

Also cheaper to finish the contract and store them, that to fight out stopping the contract outright.In many cases the fees were paid and the delivery was on schedule, but not finished yet.

Edited November 19, 2010 by animatic

[silp1979]

anti-personnel mines

Is that loud enough for some people? To date, all of the protests have railed about the evil Americans, the abrogation of Mr. Bout's personal liberties, the intrusions of the state into commercial enterprise, etc. and now the full story is coming out. And best of all it is transcribed and recorded for the whole world to see.

Columbia is a signatory of the landmine treaty. As such, any sale of landmines for use in Columbia would be a clear contravention of the applicable law. It would also be a violation of Columbian sovereignty. Where are all the bleaters now?

And just so the whiners don't have any reason to chime up with their usual , but the USA wah, wah, wah chant,, please note that according to the International Campaign to Ban Landmines, the U.S. has not used anti-personnel mines since 1991, has had an export ban in place since 1992 and has not produced them since 1997. It is also the world's largest individual contributor for mine action and victim assistance programmes. Seems to me, the USA acted to prevent a sales agent of landmines from continuing to distribute these items.

I'd like to see Mr. Bout explain to a room filled with limbless children why it was ok to sell landmines.

u go look at wikileaks and tell me what the lord of war (USA) is doing every day to civilians....and the funny thing in the US they sell guns but not put the dealer in prison when they kill there whole family with the gun...soon the policeman of the world (USA) will be gone , it's about time (Victor probably a bad guy too, then he is in the right place free board and room for the rest of his life, let the US taxpayer pay for it lol

[SomchaiCNX]

There are 300+ million Americans. No wonder some are narrow minded parochial and can't see past their noses.

There are also many who can think circles around most other humans, in a ratio resembling that in most social groupings. And even more who are of average intelligence, kind hearted, moderately well traveled, know other cultures, and appreciate common sense, These last don't seem to get the big press... because they don't stand out. But they represent the great majority of American citizens. That doesn't mean they are also the motivated voter zealot blocks that win congressional elections regularly.

If only 6 % of them have a passport to travel, how are we supposed to meet them?

[ScubaBuddha]

The game has only just begun. How many people is Bout willing to rat out to save his own skin?

Who is he going to rat out? The minions in the Russian military that are selling the arms to him? He IS the big fish.

So the trial has already begun? In the US media?!

I guess they are “informing” and “educating” the to bee jury so that it will go smother the day that “justice” will happen.

Trust the yankees to do a stupid thing like this.

Tiger

Yes, of course the U.S. justice system is far from perfect. In fact it is the worst in the world, except for all the others.

The jury will not be affected by the media. Americans don't know who this guy is. Even my father who led U.S. DOE nuclear non-proliferation teams in Russia much of the 1990's and into the 2000's didn't know who Bout was when I recently asked him. The author of "The Merchant of Death" wrote in his book that many of his sources believed that if anyone could deliver a nuke to the hands of terrorists, Bout was the one guy that could do it.

Why the do the sting op in Thailand? Because that is where Bout finally agreed to meet. Stupid Bout...he did not research that the DEA and CIA were always based in Thailand.

That many AKs? FARC should know not to make themselves a target by using a different weapon system vs the ones carried by the US-supported Colombian army - M16s. Bout should have noted this discrepancy before placing the order or flying to meet the customer.

Scopes to kill pilots... Really? The ones flying at 30K feet?

The order was too good to be true.

Lesson: Never agree to meet. Use the www. Still there always watching.

The order was for Kalashnikov's because that is what Bout sold. His source was his many Russian military contacts. Five thousand of any of the AR-15 variants would be much more difficult to obtain (and much more expensive.)

If you read any of the many other articles, you would know the agents and Bout were referring to helicopter pilots flying low altitude anti-drug smuggling missions. While the AK isn't the most accurate rifle out there, it is certainly capable of taking out a pilot even at 300-500m, especially if it is fitted with a scope.

Too True.

The USA - land of the free and plea bargaining.

Who would bet against a deal being done here for some tasty information!

Some great imaginations at work here today. This isn't 1987. The cold war is over. Any info Bout has is not likely useful. (unless he is still working for the FSB or SVR, which is doubtful.)

And FYI Bouts case is in federal court. Federal courts do not use plea bargaining. State courts do.

Edited November 19, 2010 by ScubaBuddha

[amitabha]

For those who are not familiar with conspiracy laws - such as myself - the so called "evidence" in conspiracy cases just seems absurd.

"At their next meeting, in Copenhagen, Smulian used the real name of his employer and his nickname, "The Merchant of Death."

"We marveled that Smulian would do that, but it was just great evidence," says Milione."

and

"At one point the undercover agents said they wanted sniper rifle scopes so they can "start blowing the heads off of American pilots," Milione says, adding that Bout responded "Yes.""

No wonder that in most of the European countries these laws don't exist. The fact that your friend calls you by your nickname "The Merchant of Death" or that you say "yes", is heavy evidence of conspiracy in America. Indeed, a mere nod in silence can be enough to prove an "illegal agreement" - the necessary element for conspiracy.

However, the fact is that Mr. Bout shall look at himself in the mirror, as it is there he can see the one to blame. He should've known that the Americans were out to get him.

[SomchaiCNX]

What's with the nonsense of tossing put lists of the "biggest vendors of arms"? If a country sells an airplane at US $20million a pop vs. a country that turns out side arms at $200 a unit, then the numbers are going to reflect that. Only an idiot relies on such a listing. These lists are useless without a statement of the items sold. Germany looks like a big armaments vendor, but guess who supplies Australia, Canada and even the USA with its G Wagon vehicles? D-uh.

Mr. Bout is complicit in murder, rape, and genocide. Deal with it. Stop using his arrest as an excuse to bash the Americans as it just means that you support a man that profited from inflicting pain on suffering of others.

Stop telling people how they should think or what they should say and those people will stop bashing as well.

What's the difference between Mr. Bush and Mr. Bout?

[SomchaiCNX]

Double posting removed

Edited November 19, 2010 by SomchaiCNX

[richard47]

Don't forget that the UN does not call the FARC a terrorist organization, and the following quote from the BBC:

"This is a political case. The FARC is fighting for a political cause and is not a criminal gang. Thailand does not recognize the FARC as a terrorist group," said the judge delivering the verdict at Bangkok's Criminal Court.

So once again we have the mendacious Americans up to their usual underhand tricks. What a sad country full of even sadder people. They have never even won a war without the help of some other nation, unless you want to call defeating Panama and Grenada a great victory.

Half of the World's population share most of the alleged comments made by Viktor Bout. I hope America has the space to extradite some tens of millions.

[animatic]

There are 300+ million Americans. No wonder some are narrow minded parochial and can't see past their noses.

There are also many who can think circles around most other humans, in a ratio resembling that in most social groupings. And even more who are of average intelligence, kind hearted, moderately well traveled, know other cultures, and appreciate common sense, These last don't seem to get the big press... because they don't stand out. But they represent the great majority of American citizens. That doesn't mean they are also the motivated voter zealot blocks that win congressional elections regularly.

If only 6 % of them have a passport to travel, how are we supposed to meet them?

http://www.usatoday....rt-record_N.htm

Some 74 million Americans now have valid U.S. passports. as of 2007

27% of americans have a passport as of June 2008.

Edited November 19, 2010 by animatic

[mark45y]

Lots of nievete being posted in this thread. And before you read further, I'm not defending the USA in this post.

The Bout take-down is not about jurisprudence, but instead about 21st Century warfare where sovereign states are attacked by individuals as well as other sovereign states. Hello 9/11, parcel bombs on aircraft, and Mumbai Oberoi Hotel attack. Bout dealt weapons because he could. The US took him down for the same reason, and for the fact that he was operating against their strategic interests (as well as the children of West Africa. I've been there, and the aftermath is not pretty) at a high enough level of irritant factor. No whiners, please, at this level of poker. Even Bout had the balls to say "the game is up." He knew the risk/reward calculus of the game.

Since old-school military invasions are being repeatedly shown to be expensive, politically damaging and ultimately ineffective to counter an occult or guerilla adversary (is the Pentagon finally remembering that the US War for Independence against Colonialist England was won via guerilla tactics?), war is now fought at the surgical, personal level first. Does anyone think the Wikileaks founder's new 'personal' dilemma is coincidental to his efforts in leaking classified US data?

Just describing the new/old landscape of war.

I actually agree with 99% of what you say with one small exception. The war of independence was won by Benjamin Franklin making a deal with France to send the French Navy.

It financially broke the French Monarchy and turned out to not be such a good deal for France but Franklin was quite a diplomat.

The French Navy's role in the success of the American Revolution is seldom acknowledged in general American histories. Yet it is difficult to see how American independence could have been won -- at least in that particular war -- against a regime that was the world's acknowledge leading naval power in terms of ship inventory and recent combat exploits. Certainly, the undisputed expert on the war, General Washington, appreciated the critical importance of naval presence in the North American theater. As long as the British navy could support their army's operations along the eastern coastline, the rebellion was doomed. The French naval success at the Second Battle of the Virginia Capes in September 1781 was ‘the keystone' of the Yorktown Campaign, and provides dramatic testimony of the French Navy's contribution to the American cause in that theater of operations. In all due respect to the modest Continental and American state navies, and to the spectacular performances of the American privateers, it was the Royal French Navy that was the only ‘standing navy' to serve the American army in terms of engaging British naval formations and supporting land operations in North America.

From the French Navy web page.

[ScubaBuddha]

There are 300+ million Americans. No wonder some are narrow minded parochial and can't see past their noses.

There are also many who can think circles around most other humans, in a ratio resembling that in most social groupings. And even more who are of average intelligence, kind hearted, moderately well traveled, know other cultures, and appreciate common sense, These last don't seem to get the big press... because they don't stand out. But they represent the great majority of American citizens. That doesn't mean they are also the motivated voter zealot blocks that win congressional elections regularly.

If only 6 % of them have a passport to travel, how are we supposed to meet them?

Actually it's closer to 30%. Understand too that until a couple years ago we could travel to Canada, Mexico, and Caribbean with no passport. Even now you can enter land and sea boarders if you have the high tech drivers license/state ID card.

I'm actually quite surprised at the number of Americans in Thailand, both tourists and expats, considering those passport ownership numbers.

Edited November 19, 2010 by ScubaBuddha

[animatic]

For those who are not familiar with conspiracy laws - such as myself - the so called "evidence" in conspiracy cases just seems absurd.

"At their next meeting, in Copenhagen, Smulian used the real name of his employer and his nickname, "The Merchant of Death."

"We marveled that Smulian would do that, but it was just great evidence," says Milione."

and

"At one point the undercover agents said they wanted sniper rifle scopes so they can "start blowing the heads off of American pilots," Milione says, adding that Bout responded "Yes.""

No wonder that in most of the European countries these laws don't exist. The fact that your friend calls you by your nickname "The Merchant of Death" or that you say "yes", is heavy evidence of conspiracy in America. Indeed, a mere nod in silence can be enough to prove an "illegal agreement" - the necessary element for conspiracy.

However, the fact is that Mr. Bout shall look at himself in the mirror, as it is there he can see the one to blame. He should've known that the Americans were out to get him.

No, not evidence of a conspiracy to use his knickname,

but evidence that they are on the right trail to get at him.

He provided the evidence himself in person of the conspiracy,

added to the guy who used his real name to set up the meeting.

[markt7081]

anti-personnel mines

Is that loud enough for some people? To date, all of the protests have railed about the evil Americans, the abrogation of Mr. Bout's personal liberties, the intrusions of the state into commercial enterprise, etc. and now the full story is coming out. And best of all it is transcribed and recorded for the whole world to see.

Columbia is a signatory of the landmine treaty. As such, any sale of landmines for use in Columbia would be a clear contravention of the applicable law. It would also be a violation of Columbian sovereignty. Where are all the bleaters now?

And just so the whiners don't have any reason to chime up with their usual , but the USA wah, wah, wah chant,, please note that according to the International Campaign to Ban Landmines, the U.S. has not used anti-personnel mines since 1991, has had an export ban in place since 1992 and has not produced them since 1997. It is also the world's largest individual contributor for mine action and victim assistance programmes. Seems to me, the USA acted to prevent a sales agent of landmines from continuing to distribute these items.

I'd like to see Mr. Bout explain to a room filled with limbless children why it was ok to sell landmines.

I fully agree with the posters sentiments, but I dont understand.

USA have not used themselves since 1991, havn't exported any since 1992, stopped production in 1997

So where did the production between 1992 and 1997 go?

Stockpiled for a shooting war, just in case. Classic military thinking.

Also cheaper to finish the contract and store them, that to fight out stopping the contract outright.In many cases the fees were paid and the delivery was on schedule, but not finished yet.

Ah i see,

Thanks

[animatic]

There are 300+ million Americans. No wonder some are narrow minded parochial and can't see past their noses.

There are also many who can think circles around most other humans, in a ratio resembling that in most social groupings. And even more who are of average intelligence, kind hearted, moderately well traveled, know other cultures, and appreciate common sense, These last don't seem to get the big press... because they don't stand out. But they represent the great majority of American citizens. That doesn't mean they are also the motivated voter zealot blocks that win congressional elections regularly.

If only 6 % of them have a passport to travel, how are we supposed to meet them?

Actually it's closer to 30%. Understand too that until a couple years ago we could travel to Canada, Mexico, and Caribbean with no passport. Even now you can enter land and sea boarders if you have the high tech drivers license/state ID card.

I'm actually quite surprised at the number of Americans in Thailand, both tourists and expats, considering those passport ownership numbers.

Scuba, you and I are clearly descendants from the

'more outgoing gene lines' in the American gene pool.

We met last year if I remember correctly.

Edited November 19, 2010 by animatic

[z21rhd]

since when the US capture Bout

[Harcourt]

anti-personnel mines

Is that loud enough for some people? To date, all of the protests have railed about the evil Americans, the abrogation of Mr. Bout's personal liberties, the intrusions of the state into commercial enterprise, etc. and now the full story is coming out. And best of all it is transcribed and recorded for the whole world to see.

Columbia is a signatory of the landmine treaty. As such, any sale of landmines for use in Columbia would be a clear contravention of the applicable law. It would also be a violation of Columbian sovereignty. Where are all the bleaters now?

And just so the whiners don't have any reason to chime up with their usual , but the USA wah, wah, wah chant,, please note that according to the International Campaign to Ban Landmines, the U.S. has not used anti-personnel mines since 1991, has had an export ban in place since 1992 and has not produced them since 1997. It is also the world's largest individual contributor for mine action and victim assistance programmes. Seems to me, the USA acted to prevent a sales agent of landmines from continuing to distribute these items.

I'd like to see Mr. Bout explain to a room filled with limbless children why it was ok to sell landmines.

But the "but the USA wah wah wah chant" isn't neccessarily about landmines........but before I "wah wah wah", lets just look at the big question you have left begging: Why was the USA still producing them for a further 6 years after they decided not to use them? The home of capitalism surely wouldn't be producing them to keep jobs in the factories, would they?

And on to the "wah wah wah".......maybe the US follows it's international obligations on the use of landmines (and maybe it only pays lip service when we consider the question above), but it does not on other international law issues, and that is where the "wah wah wah" comes in. But that is for another thread.

[mark45y]

Don't forget that the UN does not call the FARC a terrorist organization, and the following quote from the BBC:

"This is a political case. The FARC is fighting for a political cause and is not a criminal gang. Thailand does not recognize the FARC as a terrorist group," said the judge delivering the verdict at Bangkok's Criminal Court.

So once again we have the mendacious Americans up to their usual underhand tricks. What a sad country full of even sadder people. They have never even won a war without the help of some other nation, unless you want to call defeating Panama and Grenada a great victory.

Half of the World's population share most of the alleged comments made by Viktor Bout. I hope America has the space to extradite some tens of millions.

On July 13, 2004, the office of the United Nations' High Commissioner for Human Rights publicly condemned the group, accusing the FARC-EP of violating article 17 of the additional Protocol II of the Geneva Convention and international humanitarian law.

[elshaheen]

anti-personnel mines

Is that loud enough for some people? To date, all of the protests have railed about the evil Americans, the abrogation of Mr. Bout's personal liberties, the intrusions of the state into commercial enterprise, etc. and now the full story is coming out. And best of all it is transcribed and recorded for the whole world to see.

Columbia is a signatory of the landmine treaty. As such, any sale of landmines for use in Columbia would be a clear contravention of the applicable law. It would also be a violation of Columbian sovereignty. Where are all the bleaters now?

And just so the whiners don't have any reason to chime up with their usual , but the USA wah, wah, wah chant,, please note that according to the International Campaign to Ban Landmines, the U.S. has not used anti-personnel mines since 1991, has had an export ban in place since 1992 and has not produced them since 1997. It is also the world's largest individual contributor for mine action and victim assistance programmes. Seems to me, the USA acted to prevent a sales agent of landmines from continuing to distribute these items.

I'd like to see Mr. Bout explain to a room filled with limbless children why it was ok to sell landmines.

Ah, the U.S. governments B.S. interrogation techniques? Why not water board Mr. V. Bout, it works and it’s “highly controversial”

He was involved in a Sting operation drawn up and conducted by DEA who are well none to fabricate stories, only my grandmother could tell from her lazy boy chair in the living room.

As far as dangerous. Who is more dangerous? U.S. government and their shock troops in Middle East, Russian Special Forces, Israeli Special Forces. U.S. government basically had another player in this vast game removed so other could profit.

[maxman71]

I guess I have neglected to ask ONE key question of the EuroLanders on this thread: and that is if you are of the belief that the US is an evil, ever-corrupt, imperialistic empire to be roundly condemned as often as possible, then WHY is it you rely upon the US to foot the vast majority of the bills for EuroLand's defense??? Personally, I (and a fast growing number of my compatriots) are all for yanking our troops home to defend our own borders, which sorely need it. And the US needs can then drastically reduce our Defense budget which is ripe for a good whacking. So, have it EuroLanders; walk your talk and tell your gov't to tell the US to GTFO. Ooops...then your generous vacation allowances, socialized health care, early retirement, 35 hour work weeks, etc., just might have to take a good whacking too...