Constitution Court Acquits Thai Democrat

[ChiangMaiFun]

PS - those of you who think that anyone who criticises tho incumbent are "Red" supporters are simply showing how incapable they are of understanding even a small part of the problems that beset Thailand.

Thank you.

Well said.

Thanks for your insight and input once again phil.

@Deeral ... that sentiment would also apply to those who criticise the PTP or red shirts. That doesn't make them yellow shirt supporters.

You're catching on!

Maybe you need to tell that to some of the other red shirt supporters anti-government posters on TVF.

maybe not, then?

It is an old trick used by the established yellows on here - if you do not agree with the current government you are red - if you are red you support Thaksin - if you support Thaksin you are stupid and a moron. They have no ability to rationally argue the case and accept social change is upon us - I have always posted I don't want to see Thaksin back and I do not support violence but I am regulalry accused by the 'high and mighty' on here of being a red AND a Thaksin supporter.

[whybother]

It is an old trick used by the established yellows on here - if you do not agree with the current government you are red - if you are red you support Thaksin - if you support Thaksin you are stupid and a moron. They have no ability to rationally argue the case and accept social change is upon us - I have always posted I don't want to see Thaksin back and I do not support violence but I am regulalry accused by the 'high and mighty' on here of being a red AND a Thaksin supporter.

In the same sentence that you're complaining about being called a red and Thaksin supporter, you're calling others yellow because they agree with the government.

[wackysleet]

[quote name='ChiangMaiFun' timestamp='1291079380' post='4056077'

maybe not, then?

It is an old trick used by the established yellows on here - if you do not agree with the current government you are red - if you are red you support Thaksin - if you support Thaksin you are stupid and a moron. They have no ability to rationally argue the case and accept social change is upon us - I have always posted I don't want to see Thaksin back and I do not support violence but I am regulalry accused by the 'high and mighty' on here of being a red AND a Thaksin supporter.

Too many posters on here just seem to think that a government that has so far done very little is the best we can expect, I too have never supported Thaksin or violence of any sort from any party and the troublemakers from either party, government supported or not are really no different than the minority that regularly appear at any protest meeting anywhere in the world.

Crooked as Thaksin was he did some good for the working classes in their opinion, hence his support from the rural areas, not of course from the pigs at the trough in Bangkok.

[ChiangMaiFun]

It is an old trick used by the established yellows on here - if you do not agree with the current government you are red - if you are red you support Thaksin - if you support Thaksin you are stupid and a moron. They have no ability to rationally argue the case and accept social change is upon us - I have always posted I don't want to see Thaksin back and I do not support violence but I am regulalry accused by the 'high and mighty' on here of being a red AND a Thaksin supporter.

In the same sentence that you're complaining about being called a red and Thaksin supporter, you're calling others yellow because they agree with the government.

no i said 'established yellows on here' when did I say government supporters? I'm sure there are some Abhisit supporters who do not like PAD - I am bitching about the active yellow fellows who trash anyone who disagree and always label them 'red' or 'Thaksinites'. You can go back over all my posts where I consistently say 'I don't want Thaksin back' and 'I am against violence of ANY colour' but I still get slammed by those who are intellectually challenged.

[ianbaggie]

Abhsit haters will decry this, but the man is the best PM we've had in 10 years, and (while not perfect by a long shot), is a hell of a lot better to any PTP mouthbreather as PM (or Sanan, or Sanoh, or any of the other marshmellows).

Oldest party keeps getting older. Look for house dissolution in April, and current coalition wins majority and is back until at least 2014. :jap:

HEAR HEAR!! Amen to that!!

[geriatrickid]

The case was dismissed on a technicality issue, not on judicial merit.

The court said that the EC's procedure concerning the resolution case was unlawful and the submission of the petition was beyond the 15-day deadline.

The court cited unlawful procesure as ground not to review other facts and evidence.

The Constitutional Court did not rule on the allegations themselves did it?

[whybother]

The case was dismissed on a technicality issue, not on judicial merit.

The court said that the EC's procedure concerning the resolution case was unlawful and the submission of the petition was beyond the 15-day deadline.

The court cited unlawful procesure as ground not to review other facts and evidence.

The Constitutional Court did not rule on the allegations themselves did it?

No, it didn't, which is a pity.

The Election Commission didn't get to prove that the Democrats were guilty, and the Democrats didn't get a chance to prove their innocence (in relation to this charge).

[mic6ard]

On a different note, I bet the speed of this has taken many reporters by surprise

The marathon readings of the TRT and PPP cases were excruciating.

Those readings can probably be use as a form of mental torture!!! However, this one is so abrupt and unexpected that it leaves ground for 'double standard'. On the other hand, it prevent a chaotic 'festive seasons', I hope.

On that note, I really have just one wish this year - 'FOR ALL THE CHAOS TO END AND LET THE COUNTRY PROSPER ONCE AGAIN'.

[jdinasia]

It is an old trick used by the established yellows on here - if you do not agree with the current government you are red - if you are red you support Thaksin - if you support Thaksin you are stupid and a moron. They have no ability to rationally argue the case and accept social change is upon us - I have always posted I don't want to see Thaksin back and I do not support violence but I am regulalry accused by the 'high and mighty' on here of being a red AND a Thaksin supporter.

In the same sentence that you're complaining about being called a red and Thaksin supporter, you're calling others yellow because they agree with the government.

no i said 'established yellows on here' when did I say government supporters? I'm sure there are some Abhisit supporters who do not like PAD - I am bitching about the active yellow fellows who trash anyone who disagree and always label them 'red' or 'Thaksinites'. You can go back over all my posts where I consistently say 'I don't want Thaksin back' and 'I am against violence of ANY colour' but I still get slammed by those who are intellectually challenged.

Haven't you consistently said that you agree with the red cause? Haven't you stated in the past that you see violence as necessary (while also stating that you are against violence?) Please define "yellow fellows", Does that mean people that think this government is not only legal (it is) but that it has a duty to the voters that put parliament into place to continue working for the future of Thailand? The PAD (the Yellows) are a spent force --- politically marginalized unless Thaksin threatens to come back in the future. At this point I would say there are very few "yellows" on the board but that there are MANY here that think this government is the very best option for Thailand's future.

[jdinasia]

Why did the court accept the case in the first place if it was late in filing the case. Seems like a waste of tax payer money. Justice once again is never served in Thailand.

Anti-government protesters force their way into Thailand's Election Commission building in Bangkok April 5, 2010. Hundreds of anti-government protesters forced their way into Thailand's Election Commission building on Monday.

And shortly thereafter (after threats were made including posting the addresses of the EC members) the EC filed charges. (Far too late to be valid in a the legal framework of Thailand)

[jdinasia]

'precisely'? I dont think so...

So your suggesting that anyone that critises the PTP or red shirts are yellow shirt supporters?

Then you would also have to say that anyone that critises the government or yellow shirts is a red shirt supporter.

Otherwise it would be Double Standards.

you mean 'you're' not 'your'? so you link the government with yellow shirts? nice to hear the truth at last!

The very tactics you decry ----

[LomSak27]

Did anyone really think the verdict could go any other way? This was a forgone conclusion and sorry to many posters here it had little to do with justice. How they are going to spin the oft quoted "reconcilation" is beyonf me but I'm sure the Nation will put down some opp ed pieces on just who this reconciles things.

[jdinasia]

Did anyone really think the verdict could go any other way? This was a forgone conclusion and sorry to many posters here it had little to do with justice. How they are going to spin the oft quoted "reconcilation" is beyonf me but I'm sure the Nation will put down some opp ed pieces on just who this reconciles things.

You are saying you expected the case to be thrown out on a technicality? That this result was a foregone conclusion? ... wow!

I expected the Dems to be told that they had indeed mishandled things but that it did not warrant dissolution. In other words I expected a verdict. There was no verdict in this case.

[whybother]

Did anyone really think the verdict could go any other way? This was a forgone conclusion and sorry to many posters here it had little to do with justice. How they are going to spin the oft quoted "reconcilation" is beyonf me but I'm sure the Nation will put down some opp ed pieces on just who this reconciles things.

Ignoring the law would be great for reconciliation, wouldn't it.

[SergeiY]

That's the way I see it too. No one has been able to explain to me how the PTP will get into government.

So far, there hasn't been a back lash against the Democrats in any by-election. The PTP are losing MPs hand over fist.

Check the by-election of candidates who got yellow carded by the EC for 'vote - buying' issues.

Yes. From what I remember, the Democrats actually gained some seats in by-elections that the PPP had won in the general election.

I remember looking into it earlier in the year, but forget the exact details, or where I saw them.

So your statement above don't reflect some reality but only what you believe, some mistakes in your memory and ignoring that what you have forgotten or maybe never knew.

So my hint, for cases where the Democrats weren't lucky, but lose in a by-election, check the yellow carded 'vote buyer'.

And i have another question for you: How many seats won the Democrat in a former 'PPP constitution' in by-elections?

[ChiangMaiFun]

It is an old trick used by the established yellows on here - if you do not agree with the current government you are red - if you are red you support Thaksin - if you support Thaksin you are stupid and a moron. They have no ability to rationally argue the case and accept social change is upon us - I have always posted I don't want to see Thaksin back and I do not support violence but I am regulalry accused by the 'high and mighty' on here of being a red AND a Thaksin supporter.

In the same sentence that you're complaining about being called a red and Thaksin supporter, you're calling others yellow because they agree with the government.

no i said 'established yellows on here' when did I say government supporters? I'm sure there are some Abhisit supporters who do not like PAD - I am bitching about the active yellow fellows who trash anyone who disagree and always label them 'red' or 'Thaksinites'. You can go back over all my posts where I consistently say 'I don't want Thaksin back' and 'I am against violence of ANY colour' but I still get slammed by those who are intellectually challenged.

Haven't you consistently said that you agree with the red cause? Haven't you stated in the past that you see violence as necessary (while also stating that you are against violence?) Please define "yellow fellows", Does that mean people that think this government is not only legal (it is) but that it has a duty to the voters that put parliament into place to continue working for the future of Thailand? The PAD (the Yellows) are a spent force --- politically marginalized unless Thaksin threatens to come back in the future. At this point I would say there are very few "yellows" on the board but that there are MANY here that think this government is the very best option for Thailand's future.

You continually mis-quote me and continue to show that you are very arrogant indeed - many people on here have caught onto you as a poster said yesterday.

[whybother]

So your statement above don't reflect some reality but only what you believe, some mistakes in your memory and ignoring that what you have forgotten or maybe never knew.

So my hint, for cases where the Democrats weren't lucky, but lose in a by-election, check the yellow carded 'vote buyer'.

And i have another question for you: How many seats won the Democrat in a former 'PPP constitution' in by-elections?

So how many by-elections were there after the 2007 election because of banned (red card or yellow card) MPs? And how many did the PPP win?

I don't understand your question, or the relevance, particularly in relation to future elections.

[SergeiY]

It is an old trick used by the established yellows on here - if you do not agree with the current government you are red - if you are red you support Thaksin - if you support Thaksin you are stupid and a moron. They have no ability to rationally argue the case and accept social change is upon us - I have always posted I don't want to see Thaksin back and I do not support violence but I am regulalry accused by the 'high and mighty' on here of being a red AND a Thaksin supporter.

I an a topic "Local villagers confront PAD supporters in Surin" were a couple of members left their usual rants about the Reds and Thaksin i pointed out that this issue have nothing to do with the red shirts, but is just between the PAD and the local villager on the border to Cambodia and that the local villager want their peace not disturbed and i called the PAD 'lunatic nationalists'.

That created some heat, name calling and irrational replies

[Buchholz]

It is an old trick used by the established yellows on here - if you do not agree with the current government you are red - if you are red you support Thaksin - if you support Thaksin you are stupid and a moron. They have no ability to rationally argue the case and accept social change is upon us - I have always posted I don't want to see Thaksin back and I do not support violence but I am regulalry accused by the 'high and mighty' on here of being a red AND a Thaksin supporter.

I don't hurl insults like "moron", as that's more of jayboy's territory.

I will, however, point out one aspect of your post and that is if people do support the red shirts, then they do support Thaksin.

They and the Pheu Thai Party form an inseparable trio.

I can appreciate that people may not prefer the current government and profess to dislike Thaksin, but when it seems they go to great lengths to highlight only the positives and downplay all the negatives of his persona and record, it makes it difficult to accept their professed disconnect.

A similar situation exists with those that support the Reds, when they say they aren't about Thaksin or that they aren't violent or that their leaders are something more than Thaksin servants. Even the claims that they exist to support the downtrodden and neglected ring hollow when the realities of their leadership is examined.

Until such time as the rank and file Reds disown and disavow and disassociate from the Reds like Arisaman, Jakrapob, Issan Rambo, Sae Daeng, and Kwanchai who all favor violent upheavels as the means to achieve their goals, the entire "movement" is tainted. That these same rank and file languish in jails without legal and financial support from the leadership after doing their bidding speaks the loudest over what the leadership is concerned with.

Until such time as the somewhat more moderate reds like Sombat become the overwhelming driving force behind the "movement", it is justifiably scorned. An excellent opportunity to begin to raise the level of credibility of the Reds came yesterday when Jatuporn announced a new leadership for the Reds. Did he announce a moderate like Sombat was taking the helm? No. He announced more of the same in the form of Weng's wife.

The poor and disenfranchised have legitimate concerns. They just need to rally around a group or movement other than the Reds, because without wholesale change, that group is irrevocably linked to violence and mayhem. A legitimate grass-root organization would find support on all sides here. It's just that the Reds are incapable of fulfilling that role.

.

Edited November 30, 2010 by Buchholz

[SweeneyAgonistes]

I will, however, point out one aspect of your post and that is if people do support the red shirts, then they do support Thaksin.

That's just not true. If you look at someone like Giles Ungpakorn, you'll see that he's very sympathetic to the reds but was a critic of Thaksin.He's very clear about this and, in fact, it's hardly surprising that a Trotskyite would be critical of a capitalist bastard like Thaksin, whilst being sympathetic to a movement predominantly of the urban and rural poor. The reds are clearly a broad church - maybe too broad - and whilst the inane Thaksin-red-Thaksin-red merry-go-round may read nicely in rags like the Nation, it's balls.

[ChiangMaiFun]

It is an old trick used by the established yellows on here - if you do not agree with the current government you are red - if you are red you support Thaksin - if you support Thaksin you are stupid and a moron. They have no ability to rationally argue the case and accept social change is upon us - I have always posted I don't want to see Thaksin back and I do not support violence but I am regulalry accused by the 'high and mighty' on here of being a red AND a Thaksin supporter.

I don't hurl insults like "moron", as that's more of jayboy's territory.

I will, however, point out one aspect of your post and that is if people do support the red shirts, then they do support Thaksin.

They and the Pheu Thai Party are an inseparable trio.

I can appreciate that people may not prefer the current government and profess to dislike Thaksin, but when it seems they go to great lengths to highlight only the positives and downplay all the negatives of his persona and record, it makes it difficult to accept their professed disconnect.

A similar situation exists with those that support the Reds, when they say they aren't about Thaksin or that they aren't violent or that their leaders are something more than Thaksin servants. Even the claims that they exist to support the downtrodden and neglected ring hollow when the realities of their leadership is examined.

Until such time as the rank and file Reds disown and disavow and disassociate from the Reds like Arisaman, Jakrapob, Issan Rambo, Sae Daeng, and Kwanchai who all favor violent upheavels as the means to achieve their goals, the entire "movement" is tainted. That these same rank and file languish in jails without legal and financial support from the leadership after doing their bidding speaks the loudest over what the leadership is concerned with.

Until such time as the somewhat more moderate reds like Sombat become the overwhelming driving force behind the "movement", it is justifiably scorned. An excellent opportunity to begin to bring the level of credibility of the Reds came yesterday when Jatuporn announced a new leadership for the Reds. Did he announce a moderate like Sombat was taking the helm? No. He announced more of the same in the form of Weng's wife.

The poor and disenfranchised have legitimate concerns. They just need to rally around a group or movement other than the Reds, because without wholesale change, that group is irrevocably linked to violence and mayhem. A legitimate grass-root organization would find support on all sides here. It's just that the Reds are incapable of fulfilling that role.

.

I don't disasgree with much of what you have posted - my viewpoint has always been from the cultural shift angle - and as such I concentrate less on the personalities and more on the broad strokes being played on a vast canvas. I disown, entirely, violence on either side and have never advocated it.

[ChiangMaiFun]

I will, however, point out one aspect of your post and that is if people do support the red shirts, then they do support Thaksin.

That's just not true. If you look at someone like Giles Ungpakorn, you'll see that he's very sympathetic to the reds but was a critic of Thaksin.He's very clear about this and, in fact, it's hardly surprising that a Trotskyite would be critical of a capitalist bastard like Thaksin, whilst being sympathetic to a movement predominantly of the urban and rural poor. The reds are clearly a broad church - maybe too broad - and whilst the inane Thaksin-red-Thaksin-red merry-go-round may read nicely in rags like the Nation, it's balls.

eexactly! what a good post - rational, sane and spot on - but many on here won't 'get it'

Like my old CEO said 'they don't know what they don't know'

[jdinasia]

You continually mis-quote me and continue to show that you are very arrogant indeed - many people on here have caught onto you as a poster said yesterday.

No "misquoting" done here ... and the poster yesterday is the guy that does the most "name-calling" on the board. It was good of you not to address any of the content in the post that you quoted with this answer though!

So, directly ....

1) Have you not in the past associated the Red shirts with the Labor Union movements in Europe and stated that violence was part of what it took for the labor union movement to gain ground? (I agree that you openly say that you do not condone violence now, but that you have associated the violence of the labor union movements as necessary and the reds with the labor union movement, which in my mind negates your claims to not agreeing with violence.) Don't you find it strange that the Thai labor unions took stands against the redshirts and Thaksin?

2) Have you not changed tactics from saying that there has been a paradigm shift in Thailand, to now saying a social/cultural shift that will take 3-4 decades? (What country in the world has NOT had a cultural shift in 30-40 years/.)

3) Am I arrogant? Sure!

4) Is the red movement totally tied up with the "bring back Thaksin" movement? Absolutely

5) Are the people quoted in the OP pro-Thaksin? Absolutely

6) Do you balk against the stereotype of saying that Reds are pro-Thaksin while continuing to label anti-Thaksin people as "yellow fellows"? Absolutely (pot:kettle:black)

Very simply --- the fight is between 2 (possibly 3) strong power blocs in Thailand. The government, strangely, isn't one of those blocs.

edit to add: Giles U. is not widely accepted by the reds --- even though he has appeared on red stages. The fact that Giles U. has run away from Thailand to escape prosecution is quite telling. That he is at the extreme lunatic fringe and being quoted here as proof that the red movement is less pro-Thaksin is also telling. That Giles stands for something that only the smallest minority in Thailand would approve of, but is being used in this argument is again ... telling. That apparently his own co-workers at Chula turned him in for his crimes ... LOL

Edited November 30, 2010 by jdinasia

[Buchholz]

On a different note, I bet the speed of this has taken many reporters by surprise

The marathon readings of the TRT and PPP cases were excruciating.

Those readings can probably be use as a form of mental torture!!! However, this one is so abrupt and unexpected that it leaves ground for 'double standard'.

It's not a situation of having a double standard.

The cases against TRT and PPP were both filed within the requisite time frame.

Edited November 30, 2010 by Buchholz

[SweeneyAgonistes]

It's not a situation of having a double standard.

The cases against TRT and PPP were both filed within the requisite time frame.

It's a hoary old cliche that justice doesn't just need to be done but needs to be seen to done but it's true and in this case there seems - but, I'm no expert - that there's a hole big enough to sail a QE2-full of doubt through. If you believe that there are double-standards in Thailand - and there are pretty good reasons for thinking that there are - this is not going to do much to disabuse you of that view.

[SergeiY]

So your statement above don't reflect some reality but only what you believe, some mistakes in your memory and ignoring that what you have forgotten or maybe never knew.

So my hint, for cases where the Democrats weren't lucky, but lose in a by-election, check the yellow carded 'vote buyer'.

And i have another question for you: How many seats won the Democrat in a former 'PPP constitution' in by-elections?

So how many by-elections were there after the 2007 election because of banned (red card or yellow card) MPs? And how many did the PPP win?

I don't understand your question, or the relevance, particularly in relation to future elections.

yellow carded for 'vote buying' candidates of the PPP won again in the by-elecion, some with really impressive results meanwhile the democrats couldn't win again in such by- election hold because of vote buying. by-elections that were of course then much more scrutinized and under observation to exclude any possibilities for vote buying.

My questions are somewhat rhetorical and telling you in other words that you got it totally wrong.

So the question more or less a hint that you should learn a bit about the subject. Start with trying to verify your own statement and be able to back it up, this way you can correct some mistakes and gain some knowledge.

By-election were hold were/are hold of many various reasons. red/yellow carded by the EC for violation of the law, like vote buying, MPs retreat and resign from politics by their own choice, people getting banned from politics for 5 years - so they cannot be MPs anymore. (PPP wasn't the only one that got banned)

These by-election are hold in constituencies were the previous 'winner' came from various political parties. Yes and sometimes a candidate from a different political party wins, sometimes the same party again and sometime the new version of a banned party.

There are more political parties than only PTP and the Democrats and not all by-election are about to re-assign a former PPP win of the general election.

Your statement "the Democrats actually gained some seats in by-elections that the PPP had won in the general election." is false.

True is that the Democrats won recently by-election. But these constituencies were constituencies were the Democrats also won the voting in the general election 2007. The PTP did also campaign for these by-election, they didn't win, but they were also not losing a former PPP/PTP seat to the Democrats.

You cannot establish a political trend or a prediction for a future general election from these recent by-elections in the sense that the people now tend much more into the direction of one party and the other party losing popularity.

What you could observe in the recent election in Bangkok was that despite all the political turmoil, the protests, the violent crackdown, havinga democrat lead government for a while now and all the other changes in the political landscape and so on ... that didn't had an impact to the voter at all, the results were nearly exactly the same as in previous years.

[Buchholz]

I will, however, point out one aspect of your post and that is if people do support the red shirts, then they do support Thaksin.

That's just not true. If you look at someone like Giles Ungpakorn, you'll see that he's very sympathetic to the reds but was a critic of Thaksin.He's very clear about this and, in fact, it's hardly surprising that a Trotskyite would be critical of a capitalist bastard like Thaksin, whilst being sympathetic to a movement predominantly of the urban and rural poor. The reds are clearly a broad church - maybe too broad - and whilst the inane Thaksin-red-Thaksin-red merry-go-round may read nicely in rags like the Nation, it's balls.

Have the leadership of the Reds disowned Giles and his Marxist rantings and other unmentionable leanings? I've never seen reports where the Reds disassociated from his extremist views.

Yes, he was anti-Thaksin before, but those condemnations seemed to strangely disappear when he joined the Red stage and he was given a microphone to extol his insights into how to "fix" Thailand. None of his recent writings mention the negatives of the Thaksin era that he used to harp on.

I suppose that was the price he had to pay to be allowed to join in with the Reds, which he did so willingly as it gave him the opportunity to increase his minuscule following.

Until such time as the "church" gets its act together and dismisses those that advocate violence and anti-societal norms, the congregation don't have a prayer.

[Buchholz]

eexactly! what a good post - rational, sane and spot on

If only it were accurate.

[jdinasia]

eexactly! what a good post - rational, sane and spot on

If only it were accurate.

I think you are asking too much!

[SweeneyAgonistes]

Since your claim was that the reds and Thaksin were one and the same, it doesn't really matter whether or not they've said anything about Giles's Marxism. And whilst you may not agree with it, it - Marxism - is a perfectly legitimate political position to take so please, save the crap about 'ranting'. As for Giles talking about Thaksin, he's certainly mentioned it on his blog - I remember very clearly reading it there. He may have said something in his most recent book but I can't remember off the top of my head and I can't now remember where I put it so I can't check immediately.

Edited November 30, 2010 by SweeneyAgonistes