Killing The Golden Goose

[GarryP]

your wife will never be on yourside, if she was on yourside she would not have told you about the second proposal, wake up smell the coffee we a rated below the family pet dog, cat etc let alone buffalo brother sister aunties cousinns etc.

my brother in law stole my car a took it home for a few days, wife asked me to go and visit sick father recently, i said not whilst your brother draws breath will i go anywhere near them, she replied he is not angry with you for taking the car, work that one out.

Give them nothing then all you will lose in nothing or with luck the wife.

He is not angry with you for taking the car back from him after he stole it from you in the first place (probably he and your wife only saw it as borrowing). Wonderful logic.

[mca]

its merely a symptom of marrying well below one's socio economic class.

Sadly has to be said. Reading between the lines of so many western/Thai relationship problems the underlying factor of a large number of them is ending up with someone who's got fuc_k all and has about as much in common with her hubbi/bf as a chicken has with a submarine.

A bit like me moving to the US from England and settling down with some Detroit black crack whore with 5 kids on welfare.

Apologies for the bluntness.

[IanForbes]

its merely a symptom of marrying well below one's socio economic class. can happen anywhere but, for most complainants its not a risk they likely run into back home.

Not entirely true, Loz. Maybe you haven't been wrung through the North American divorce proceedings. I never did anything wrong in either of my marriages... other than be too generous. But, that didn't help me when the wife had HER affairs and ended our marriage. I still had to give her half of everything I had earned before and after we were married.. Same was true with my second wife. She came in with nothing and left after 7 years with half of the half I split with my first wife. Again, I didn't do anything wrong. But, I probably didn't do some things right. That doesn't mean squat in a divorce proceedings. I can tell you that a split up in North America is likely to cost a WHOLE LOT more than a divorce in Thailand. I'm not about to make the same mistake again. But, as I've said many times, both my wives did me a favour by leaving. I've learned that I love my freedom a whole lot more than being tied to a marriage... no matter HOW good the woman might be.

However, I don't regret either of my marriages. I had two great children from my first marriage and met the love of my life with the second lady. That's not a bad trade off for now being single and free to do whatever I want whenever I want.

[GuestHouse]

its merely a symptom of marrying well below one's socio economic class. can happen anywhere but, for most complainants its not a risk they likely run into back home.

Not entirely true, Loz. Maybe you haven't been wrung through the North American divorce proceedings. I never did anything wrong in either of my marriages... other than be too generous. But, that didn't help me when the wife had HER affairs and ended our marriage. I still had to give her half of everything I had earned before and after we were married.. Same was true with my second wife. She came in with nothing and left after 7 years with half of the half I split with my first wife. Again, I didn't do anything wrong. But, I probably didn't do some things right. That doesn't mean squat in a divorce proceedings. I can tell you that a split up in North America is likely to cost a WHOLE LOT more than a divorce in Thailand. I'm not about to make the same mistake again. But, as I've said many times, both my wives did me a favour by leaving. I've learned that I love my freedom a whole lot more than being tied to a marriage... no matter HOW good the woman might be.

However, I don't regret either of my marriages. I had two great children from my first marriage and met the love of my life with the second lady. That's not a bad trade off for now being single and free to do whatever I want whenever I want.

There's a lot of bitter post divorce guys ranting about western women on Thaivisa - It's good to see a guy taking a balanced view. Good on you Ian, but don't rule out No.3....

One of the happiest men I know in Thailand got ripped off twice before he met what is clearly the perfect woman for him...... and she's clearly not with him for his money because that went to #1 and #2.

[Tonto21]

Hey torasap, at the risk of my coming off to you a self appointed all knowing, everything about Thais, (I’m most certainly not) allow me to explain in a little more detail what I was trying to convey and the situation you now find yourself in. The fact that you feel I was calling you on pressuring your wife over her sister’s taking and spending this money. Sorry, a misunderstanding, I was not referring to you directly blaming her for what’s happened. You seem an intelligent bloke, of course you don’t blame her for her SIL…………But you might as well in her eyes! Simply saying anything bad about her family is a direct attack on her.

This, I know sounds rude, it’s not meant to be but you just don’t get it, do you? Why are these Thais so stupid? Why can’t they see I’m trying to help them? Talk about the hand that feeds, they just don’t think like us!……………………………….And so on!

Being a farang married to a Thai woman can be very rewarding, (home cooked Thai food for one thing) but can lead to major conflict due to cultural background, sad thing is Thais culture being so different to our own, we (the royal we) may never see a problem coming till it’s too late. She is Thai; she is not some girl from Manchester who’s going to confront you about calling her sister.

I’ve heard it said, by more than one person with long time experience with Thai wives, and girlfriends and believe it to be true; you can tell when all the respect has gone for you when your wife/gf still tells you she loves you but, doesn’t wash you cloths or cook for you any more……No disrespect torasap, but wake up mate and smell the coffee, you are married to a Thai, she or her family are incapable of changing her cultural blueprint, you on the other hand are more than capable of learning, (just a little) about what makes Thais tick, as said before it will help keep you sane!

Sorry, I know you wrote about your wife’s sister, so why am I going on about your wife? I don’t think you appreciate the pressure your wife is under to “deliver the bacon” so to speak! Trust me you have no “ace” not in Thailand. What you do have is an unhappy wife trying to save her face and that of her families. You are so right not to hand any more money over….But do it, (or not as this case may be) in the Thai way of doing it. Think Thai. Good luck.

This is the kind of Puzzy whipped thinking that has guys creeping around the homes they have paid for / finance like a regularly kicked dog.

All this 'You've married a Thai so you have to accept Thai ways (That is Thai ways as interpreted by stranger expats on an anonymous web forum)'

Well guess what ........ It works both ways - The Thai woman here married a Farang guy!

I don't know a signle Thai person who does not run a life long battle between their own private space and encroachment by their wider family - The OP's wife hasn't been dealing with family demands since she got married to the OP - She's been dealing with family demands all of her life.

One thing she will absolutely understand is the need to protect herself and her husband from these demands.

The OP telling his wife that he is not willing to make another loan to her sister is not insulting her sister, it is simply the OP telling his wife what he wants to do (does not want to do) with his money - She will understand that his money is his money.

I say good on the OP for sticking to his guns and, let's face it, handing out cash is only going to feed dependancy.

If the OP is putting the food on the table then he has a right to demand respect for doing so - and guess what, if he demands that respect, he'll get it.

..... Or he could creep around like a whipped dog...

As they say OP - Up2U.

And if your wife doesn't like it, if she is not willing to protect you from her family's avarice - well Up2her2.

Thailand is full of women who understand the benefits of keeping their own family at arms length - They are brought up doing just that.

GuestHouse I would agree with some of what you are saying and in some circumstances showing a more belligerent attitude is well warranted even in Thai culture. The view I gave was how I would have dealt with the particular problem raised by the OP. I like to pick my battles carefully, I will take the path of lest resistance to achieve my aims. Am I a “whipped dog” because I’ve just walked away from a confrontation with a Thai, and not have his blooded spinal column hanging limp from my clenched fist?

Do you really think in this instance the best course of action for the OP, “torasap” would have been to come out blazing, letting the wife’s family, and SIL have it! Farang style? The mere fact the OP posted his story, asking for opinions; shows there are major cultural difference and complicacies between west and east. Maybe the good old Anglo-Saxon approach of; there taking the piss, “smash their faces in” can be put on the back burner for this one. OK, I know you’re not advocating that line of action, but you do seem to be on that side of the fence. If the SIL was English living in England would he have wrote this topic, would he have had any replies? Would anyone have bothered tell him they agree with his planned course of action?

My father gave me this gem of advice when having to deal with people; Son, he said, it’s easier to pull a piece of string across a table than it is to push it, (think about it) I’ve found it to be one of the best bits of advice I’ve ever been given……Oh and; don’t go over there…..that’s a minefield, that one was pretty sweet as well. He also told me “don’t bother running to the ice cream van when his bell is ringing….It means he run out of ice cream” (I’m sure a lot of kid got told this)I know the last ones got nothing to do with the topic, but what you going to do?

[GuestHouse]

Tonto,

You seem to equate Farang way as 'all guns blazing' or 'confrontational', that's a bit of generalisation that does not stand scrutiny. And that's putting aside that Thais themselves are not averse to 'all guns blazing' and being 'confrontational'.

Here's an observation of my own.

What Thais claim Thai culture to be, is almost invariably not what Thai culture actually is - Those pictures of England on biscuit tins are not what England is either.

More importantly, whenever I've been in a, lets call it a, 'soft' confrontation with a Thai and they have told me that some aspect of my behaviour, comments or stand point is offensive to Thai Culture - They have always always always been trying to hide behind what they want me to believe Thai culture is.

My view is very simple on Thai Farang relationships - You can't start respecting the other culture until you respect your own culture and you can't start respecting the other person until you start respecting yourself.

Europeans value honesty and trust, we read a lot of sh1t here on TV about Thais not valuing honesty and trust - Get caught out lying to a Thai friend/girlfriend/wife or similarly betray a Thais trust and come back and tell me that Thais do not value Honesty and Trust.

Thais lying or cheating on a Farang do so for the same reason that anyone else lies or cheats - out of a lack of respect.

The behaviour of the OPs SIL is rooted in a lack of respect.

The OP is entirely correct to respect himself and demand to be treated with honesty and respect,

Your argument to bend over and take it the Thai way is, as I have said above, Puzzy Whipped thinking.

Go ask a few Thai guys who are working, earning good money and providing their wife with a good life style how they get treated by their wife and their wife's family.

I guarantee they don't get told how to spend their money or that they are being disrespectful/creating conflict by refusing endless loans.

The 'Offending Thai Culture' <deleted> woudn't wash with a Thai.

[sarahsbloke]

its merely a symptom of marrying well below one's socio economic class. can happen anywhere but, for most complainants its not a risk they likely run into back home.

This is all very well when one is in the middle of the socio economic spectrum, you and others of your ilk, have much choice.

Unfortunately I am at the very top of the tree, in my life I have only met 3 other people who would fit in the not 'marrying below' slot you specify, two were men, the woman and I had a brief affair, but didn't like each other very much. As one of the elite who is forced by destiny to 'marry down' I have to say it would be a very lonely life if I were to follow your advice.

Not entirely true, Loz. Maybe you haven't been wrung through the North American divorce proceedings. I never did anything wrong in either of my marriages... other than be too generous. But, that didn't help me when the wife had HER affairs and ended our marriage. I still had to give her half of everything I had earned before and after we were married..

Same for me Ian, but in the UK courts, and she got about 75% of everything I had earned and inherited.

But I also have the same sentiments, my freedom was worth far more to me than money.

Edited December 1, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[mark45y]

Reality check. Tell me what thing you would do that risked hundreds of thousands of dollars that had more than a 50% chance of failure.

Thailand, the UK and the US. What pray tell is the difference?

You can do everything right. You can do everything perfectly.

And still only have a 50% chance of success.

Buriram or Birmingham, lo so or hi so flip a coin - tails is going to come up half the time.

You guys are funny.

Half of you married guys from UK or US are going to lose 50% of everything you worked for all of your life.

Edited December 1, 2010 by mark45y

[IanForbes]

I'm not sure if I ever killed the golden goose, but I've certainly killed enough of the other kind. They turn a nice golden colour when roasted for a couple of hours at 300 degrees in the oven.

:lol:

[torasap]

I don't really see how divorce settlements relate to this. Besides, I live in a country where the values one possessed when entering marriage, are exempted from the 50-50 split.

I told my wife that I felt downright stupid for having transferred 20k in the first place, but she convinced me that her sister's abuse of trust doesn't qualify my act as "stupid". When I heard about the subsequent requests, however, which started at 150k, I didn't understand how my SIL still dared to ask for such amounts. It's called "naadan" in Thai. And I still don't get it, I guess - other than that she thinks I'm totally stupid. I was actually hoping she had better thoughts of me than that.

The 'Offending Thai Culture' <deleted> woudn't wash with a Thai.

Doesn't wash with me either. As previously stated, I'm fresh on TV but not-so-fresh in Thailand. I have lived with my Thai wife for more than 5 years and travelled to Thailand for nearly 10. It's always important to pick the right time and place for any confrontation (anywhere in the world), but I have no reason to accept being screwed over as 'part of Thai culture'. I simply don't have such awful thoughts about Thai culture.

[IanForbes]

Torasap, it always hurts when someone betrays our trust. All you can do is forget it and leave it on their shoulders. It is THEIR problem, not yours. I believe you've already figured that out. The main problem is you ARE connected via family, and family always comes first in Thailand. You just have to stick to your own principles and not waver despite outside pressures. I had a druggie son in law that screwed my second marriage and caused it to end in divorce. A mother almost always takes the side of her offspring and did so in my ex wife's case.. It really hurt me and changed my life completely. But, as it turned out, it changed it for the better.

[Tonto21]

Tonto,

You seem to equate Farang way as 'all guns blazing' or 'confrontational', that's a bit of generalisation that does not stand scrutiny. And that's putting aside that Thais themselves are not averse to 'all guns blazing' and being 'confrontational'.

Here's an observation of my own.

What Thais claim Thai culture to be, is almost invariably not what Thai culture actually is - Those pictures of England on biscuit tins are not what England is either.

More importantly, whenever I've been in a, lets call it a, 'soft' confrontation with a Thai and they have told me that some aspect of my behaviour, comments or stand point is offensive to Thai Culture - They have always always always been trying to hide behind what they want me to believe Thai culture is.

My view is very simple on Thai Farang relationships - You can't start respecting the other culture until you respect your own culture and you can't start respecting the other person until you start respecting yourself.

Europeans value honesty and trust, we read a lot of sh1t here on TV about Thais not valuing honesty and trust - Get caught out lying to a Thai friend/girlfriend/wife or similarly betray a Thais trust and come back and tell me that Thais do not value Honesty and Trust.

Thais lying or cheating on a Farang do so for the same reason that anyone else lies or cheats - out of a lack of respect.

The behaviour of the OPs SIL is rooted in a lack of respect.

The OP is entirely correct to respect himself and demand to be treated with honesty and respect,

Your argument to bend over and take it the Thai way is, as I have said above, Puzzy Whipped thinking.

Go ask a few Thai guys who are working, earning good money and providing their wife with a good life style how they get treated by their wife and their wife's family.

I guarantee they don't get told how to spend their money or that they are being disrespectful/creating conflict by refusing endless loans.

The 'Offending Thai Culture' <deleted> woudn't wash with a Thai.

You make some fair points GuestHouse. In the main, I don’t think we view the use of the alleged Thai culture thing that different. Let me rewind, my reply to torasap, on the information given was how I would have dealt with his particular problem. Why? Well I don’t think he’s going to see any of that money again, no matter how he deals with it, all he’s going to achieve by pushing for this money back is grief for him and his misses. Let it go, don’t give any more money and move on. Once bitten twice shy, and all that! Any reference to Thai culture was really about his wife’s position in it all, not about not asking for the money back from the SIL because of misconceived “Thai culture”

You say my argument is about bending over and taking it the Thai way. Ha ha no, that is not a fair assessment of what I’m saying. Reading your reply’s I get the impression you think I’m a Thai apologist, someone who is all too quick to forgive those Thais that lie, steal, cheat and or hide behind the bamboo curtain of perceived Thai culture, very wrong! I know I’m not the only one who at one time or another has been told, “No good to do in Thailand, very bad” only to witness Thais all around doing what you have just been chastised for. Or find yourself in a disagreement with a Thai and winning the argument, only to have the “Thai culture” card pulled on you.

I’m neither entrenched in one camp or the other. My decisions on what route I take in dealing with confrontation with other people, be they European or Asian is based on how I and the ones I’m trying to best serve come out of it at the end of the day. Just to reiterate my point, I have not and will not any time soon be chapping my lips on any Thai ass over phony Thai culture.

[carlosacao]

It's not an educational thing, it's a cultural thing, these and other types of behaviors have become "standard practice" by the majority of Thai people. Once you spend enough time here or engage in the type of activity where you deal with Thai people in an intensive way, like having Thai employees, etc, you see all of that and you'll get a clear feel for the typical traits of most Thai people and you see them the way they really are, not the way they present themselves.

You're talking about the English, right..?

I'm most certainly talking about human beings in general ;-)

From a more serious point of view; I think small scale issues like this is a matter of lack of education. I have pointed this out in another thread: I'm not too confident there was an initial intention to scam you - the money was sitting there and all of a sudden they'd spent some of it. Maybe there's even a true intention to pay you back (it'll be difficult to do it, though).

I am not too sure the educational bit is the root cause when the same type of behavior operates on a bigger scale; I have spent time with people who are top executives in banks, and they behave in exactly the same way under certain conditions. The only difference appears to be the amounts. For the average Thai farmer it's the kids' future education spent at the local bars, in the case of the bank executive it's a couple of hundred million Baht of the banks money. The key appears to be the opportunity, so the lesson to learn is to NEVER present an opportunity. This becomes extremely important when there's a personal relationship at stake - make sure you never present an opportunity by lending money or buying something in someone else's name.

I for one try to always think the best of every Thai - contrary to many others who thinks the worst - but I also make sure I never present an opportunity; this also assures that I can maintain my relationships, both private and business wise. In a weird way, I get the impression many Thais realise I am actually trying to protect our relationship, and for this I gain in respect.

But I dont envy you the situation, after all, this is family.

[Forethat]

It's not an educational thing, it's a cultural thing, these and other types of behaviors have become "standard practice" by the majority of Thai people. Once you spend enough time here or engage in the type of activity where you deal with Thai people in an intensive way, like having Thai employees, etc, you see all of that and you'll get a clear feel for the typical traits of most Thai people and you see them the way they really are, not the way they present themselves.

It IS an educational thing, but as you have managed to exemplify it may not always be the Thai person who’s in need of education.

[ginjag]

Just for clarification, you're not talking about all Thais. You're talking specifically about your wife's family, or your wife's sister. It would make more sense if you were to suggest that your wife's sister is greedy and stupid and foolish, and maybe that your wife's entire family is like this, including her, and maybe you were stupid to marry her....which would make more sense than asking "how can (all) Thais be so stupid to ruin things for themselves...." when this really has nothing to do with the average Thai-at-large.

Dissagree entirely---this IS majority of Thais, I have been here 31 years, this is widespread, this is the norm, If you ==as you said, you think these stealers are a minority---get around more--rural--mix with rural people,, but city people can be the same. Have you blinkers on--or in denial. The only thing I aggree with you on is NOT ALL THAIS..there are some fantastic people out there---but be on your guard.

[TheyCallmeScooter]

A few weeks later (this weekend), it turned out that...she asked us how we would like to have the money returned. Since WU charges exorbitant fees for simple money transfers, we asked her to buy one baht of gold with it, and keep it for us until next time we go to Thailand.

Next time someone who owes you money asks you how to return it, don't tell them to "Keep it." Some people can confuse that with meaning "Keep it." If it's any consolation, the money was never going to be returned. The evidence of that is in your own (inadequate, but sufficient) admissions, such as:

First she said that she would wait for a good time to buy the gold, and I guess you all know what actually happened - the money is now gone.

Yes, I know what actually happened, but I'm quite certain you don't. Anyone who is surprised by this story is not only a good mark, they're an almost pitiful mark. Next time someone who owes you money, whom you have instructed to buy gold with on a weekend (?), tells you that they will wait for a "good time" to buy the gold, understand what they are telling you.

As if this wasn't enough, my sister-in-law has asked us for another 20.000 to start up a similar project in Pattaya. I got furious when my wife told me about the proposal. Her older sister's behaviour was downright foolish from the start, but if I lend them more money, I will of course be the foolish one. I do not resent my sister-in-law for what she did - this is more than a useful lesson.

It may prove to be. But of course, that will depend on your ability to learn the lesson. So far, you have shown little that suggests you are capable of learning the lesson. I say this based on your comments below:

Until paid, I can keep the figurative IOU as an ace up my sleeve. But how dare they come with business funding "proposals" after this? Although my wife is on my side in this now, nobody knows how long it will take until she starts believing her sister's lies again. I just said to her: "Sure, your sister can borrow 20K. But first she has to return the initial 20K she borrowed from us, then she can borrow another 20K" She thought it was unkind to say that, but I couldn't really care less.

You have no Ace up your sleeve.

They 'dare' because you aren't nearly as intelligent as they are. Yes, they.

Your wife is on your 'side' only in your mind. If she was - actually - on your side, she would not have assisted her sister in the first milking, let alone the 2nd, let alone tell you that you're being "unkind".

She never 'believes' her sister's 'lies'. Her sister does not lie...to her. You are the only one being lied to, and I'm sorry to say, of all the people lying to you, I suspect your name is at the top of that list. Underlined. Highlighted. In bold font.

You show hints of your capacity to learn the lesson (and it's a lesson about human intelligence, and how to protect yourself from those benefiting from a substantial disparity in their favour) when you acknowledge the fact you are capable of seeing yourself as a "golden goose". As your emotions at being stung for B20k would suggest, you may need to scratch the 'golden' from that analogy for it to be accurate. I do not point this out to denigrate, but rather to make the point that if you were actually a "golden goose", you should objectively assess your 'moral outrage' for it's validity. 'morals' (as they relate to disparities in wealth) are what rich people use to convince idiot poor people that the poor should not take their wealth from them. No one actually buys into it, well...no one intelligent, in any case.

It is arguably immoral to withhold wealth from those without it. It is arguably immoral to withhold wealth from the family of your bride. But you need to scratch all that nonsense 'morality' from the equation. The equation is really very simple, someone already pointed it out:

You farang. You rich. You pay.

[TheyCallmeScooter]

Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day

Give a man a fishing rod, you feed him for a lifetime

Give a Thai man a fish, you feed him for a day

Give a Thai man a fishing rod, he sells the rod to buy a fish and a bottle of whiskey. The next day he comes back to ask for another fish

Well written, that's exactly how I see this right now.

EDIT: except that in this case, I'm being asked to provide another fishing rod.

When you realise that you own a Bait n' Tackle store, you will realise their position. And everything will become 'clear' to you.

[TheyCallmeScooter]

This is all very well when one is in the middle of the socio economic spectrum, you and others of your ilk, have much choice. Unfortunately I am at the very top of the tree. As one of the elite who is forced by destiny to 'marry down' I have to say it would be a very lonely life if I were to follow your advice.

I do not think you'll realise how ridiculous your statements are when quoted back to you, but I would highlight your use of the words 'choice' and 'unfortunately' and 'forced' and ask for an explanation of what exactly is preventing your 'escape' from such an 'unfortunate' position. My suspicions that Sarah got a raw deal, and that you're in no such position, are probably not relevant or helpful. But as my new favourite poster on TV said in this thread, what are you going to do....

I told my wife that I felt downright stupid for having transferred 20k in the first place, but she convinced me that her sister's abuse of trust doesn't qualify my act as "stupid". When I heard about the subsequent requests, however, which started at 150k, I didn't understand how my SIL still dared to ask for such amounts. It's called "naadan" in Thai. And I still don't get it, I guess - other than that she thinks I'm totally stupid. I was actually hoping she had better thoughts of me than that.

You sound like a man easily convinced of a thing. For your sake, it would be a lucky thing (for you) if you were as easily convinced by pure logic coming from a man you don't know and are not sleeping with...as the pure illogic coming from a woman you do know and are sleeping with. If your wife convinced you that she genuinely believed the 'abuse' of trust doesn't make you stupid, you might ask what she thinks of you when she tells you that you are being "unkind" by not allowing your trust to be 'abused' again. I have no doubt she will convince you of her (if not noble, at least 'understandable') position very easily, again. As easily as your mother-in-law was able to, perhaps. Who I note is now firmly "on your side". lol.

Whilst it's cute how you're refusing to accept the Obvious, you need to put the pieces of the 'puzzle' together here, mate. It's a puzzle tagged "Suitable for children aged 8 years and over". It needn't be a traumatic 'enlightening', or even a relationship-damaging one; it should merely be a rational acceptance of the realities of life. And, in my opinion, a reality in which you are squarely in the 'wrong'. Share your wealth with your wife's family. It's what was - and will always be - expected by her and her family when she agreed to be (and for as long as she continues to be) married to you. I don't buy into morals, I buy into logic. But it is both logical that they would assume this, and 'immoral' for you to resist their expectations. There is no 'moral' high ground here, mate. Don't kid yourself otherwise.

Doesn't wash with me either. As previously stated, I'm fresh on TV but not-so-fresh in Thailand. I have lived with my Thai wife for more than 5 years and travelled to Thailand for nearly 10. It's always important to pick the right time and place for any confrontation (anywhere in the world), but I have no reason to accept being screwed over as 'part of Thai culture'. I simply don't have such awful thoughts about Thai culture.

This has nothing to do with 'culture'. This is about economics. The only 'awful' thing is your inability to distinguish one from the other. When I say 'this', I'm referring to your incorrect perception of feeling 'screwed'. Your wife might very well (fairly, and understandably) feel much the same way. Her family might very well (unfairly, yet understandably) feel much the same way. Nothing about that is 'cultural'.

Cultural understanding (specifically, the fact you clearly do not yet have any of your wife's, in sharp contrast to the fact she clearly has attained no small measure in regards to your's) are helpful in deciding how best to manage the above expectations. There is nothing about the expectations themselves that are remotely culturally-specific or even very unique at all.

It IS an educational thing, but as you have managed to exemplify it may not always be the Thai person who's in need of education.

Quite correct. carlosacao shared his enlightening 'discovery' that 'Thais' present themselves not as they are, but as they wish to be perceived. Thanks, carlosacao! Perhaps you'll next share with us your discovering grass to be the colour of green. Hopefully, in between, or at some point, you'll spend some time pondering the nature of how people present themselves in other cultures.

Edited December 6, 2010 by TheyCallmeScooter

[sarahsbloke]

This is all very well when one is in the middle of the socio economic spectrum, you and others of your ilk, have much choice. Unfortunately I am at the very top of the tree. As one of the elite who is forced by destiny to 'marry down' I have to say it would be a very lonely life if I were to follow your advice.

I do not think you'll realise how ridiculous your statements are when quoted back to you, but I would highlight your use of the words 'choice' and 'unfortunately' and 'forced' and ask for an explanation of what exactly is preventing your 'escape' from such an 'unfortunate' position. My suspicions that Sarah got a raw deal, and that you're in no such position, are probably not relevant or helpful. But as my new favourite poster on TV said in this thread, what are you going to do....

I thought my statements were 'amusing' rather than 'ridiculous'.

[Scully]

I lent the sister in law 50,000 baht, I thought at the time that it was money I was saying goodbye to but gave her the benefit of the doubt.

She knew we were leaving for 6 months to the UK around four months later a day before we were due to leave for the UK she met up with us and gave us 55,000baht as a thankyou.

I was quite suprised as they are not financially well off but worked their backsides off to pay it back.

[TheyCallmeScooter]

This is all very well when one is in the middle of the socio economic spectrum, you and others of your ilk, have much choice. Unfortunately I am at the very top of the tree. As one of the elite who is forced by destiny to 'marry down' I have to say it would be a very lonely life if I were to follow your advice.

I do not think you'll realise how ridiculous your statements are when quoted back to you, but I would highlight your use of the words 'choice' and 'unfortunately' and 'forced' and ask for an explanation of what exactly is preventing your 'escape' from such an 'unfortunate' position. My suspicions that Sarah got a raw deal, and that you're in no such position, are probably not relevant or helpful. But as my new favourite poster on TV said in this thread, what are you going to do....

I thought my statements were 'amusing' rather than 'ridiculous'.

I assure you I believed they were both. If I failed to detect an intention to be amusing, I apologise.

[torasap]

A very well-written reply, thanks for making the effort ;-)

As if this wasn't enough, my sister-in-law has asked us for another 20.000 to start up a similar project in Pattaya. I got furious when my wife told me about the proposal. Her older sister's behaviour was downright foolish from the start, but if I lend them more money, I will of course be the foolish one. I do not resent my sister-in-law for what she did - this is more than a useful lesson.

It may prove to be. But of course, that will depend on your ability to learn the lesson. So far, you have shown little that suggests you are capable of learning the lesson. I say this based on your comments below:

Until paid, I can keep the figurative IOU as an ace up my sleeve. But how dare they come with business funding "proposals" after this? Although my wife is on my side in this now, nobody knows how long it will take until she starts believing her sister's lies again. I just said to her: "Sure, your sister can borrow 20K. But first she has to return the initial 20K she borrowed from us, then she can borrow another 20K" She thought it was unkind to say that, but I couldn't really care less.

You have no Ace up your sleeve.

They 'dare' because you aren't nearly as intelligent as they are. Yes, they.

I have actually never been cheated by them before. Of course that didn't mean it would never happen - after all, one time must be the first. But if the first one will also be the last is all up to me. I can say that for all coming "proposals", I will use the card which has "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" printed on it. If that's an Ace or not, depends on the situation. In my opinion, it is. That's the card which the villagers used to not save the boy who cried "wolf", so of course it's powerful. Only that the villagers actually did get fooled twice, whilst I on the contrary won't let the in-laws get any second chance in the first place.

[Dap]

Not all "people" are like that, some are some are not. I have loaned money to Thais and got it back and and loaned it to others and not got it back. I think it is to do with there upbringing. It does seem to be a bigger problem here though, and I do not think it is just us that get screwed, Thais screw each other as well so its not a personal thing. I reckon it all boils down to the fact that they do not think of tomorrow as we do. Spend now because Tomorrow may not come!!!!

anyway, if my sister in law had done that to me, she wouldnt be getting anything else off me. Dont let her get away with it either, put pressure on your wife to sort it out.

It is my considered opinion ... If I loan money, I never expect it back. That way I am never disappointed. And, if I get it back, I am well satisfied. I don't loan unless I can afford to lose that amount

[Moonrakers]

We lent a (Thai) lad 3,000 baht about 8 months ago after he was pleading poverty. I know 3,000 is hardly going to break the bank but regardless, it is money and I want it back.

8 months..... The cheeky sod has been going out, buying expensive phones and stuff rather than returning our money, pleading poverty every time we asked for it back. The other week Mrs. 'Rakers pulled a known Thai trick and lied about having to pay a hospital bill, it worked to the tune of 2k.

Now he is calling to ask for the 2k back that he 'lent' to us when the reality is he still owes us money. Mention to the little git that he still owes us and he throws a strop.

Of course, that's just one example. It's the sense of entitlement that really gets under my skin at times. Either way, his golden goose is very much deceased.

[torasap]

It is my considered opinion ... If I loan money, I never expect it back. That way I am never disappointed. And, if I get it back, I am well satisfied. I don't loan unless I can afford to lose that amount

Sounds good. I partly second that, as I didn't expect to get the 20k back either. It just p!sses me off that instead of spending it on something that could be good for the family, she spent it on herself instead - so as to finance an extravagant lifestyle although she's unemployed. It also turns out now that she has also maxed out a credit card of 30k baht which belongs to someone else in the family. And this is not a scamming-peter-to-pay-paul-scheme. She now owes money to Peter and to Paul.

Edited December 6, 2010 by torasap

[GuestHouse]

We lent a (Thai) lad 3,000 baht about 8 months ago after he was pleading poverty. I know 3,000 is hardly going to break the bank but regardless, it is money and I want it back.

8 months..... The cheeky sod has been going out, buying expensive phones and stuff rather than returning our money, pleading poverty every time we asked for it back. The other week Mrs. 'Rakers pulled a known Thai trick and lied about having to pay a hospital bill, it worked to the tune of 2k.

Now he is calling to ask for the 2k back that he 'lent' to us when the reality is he still owes us money. Mention to the little git that he still owes us and he throws a strop.

Of course, that's just one example. It's the sense of entitlement that really gets under my skin at times. Either way, his golden goose is very much deceased.

One of our Thai neighbours came begging for a loan claiming he wanted to buy the strip of land along the side of his house.

I happily give to beggars, I never ever lend more money than enough to buy a meal or enough to buy petrol to get home.

Within a month of asking for and being refused this loan our neighbour's wife came around in tears - Her husband had just done a runner with his minor wife - Well not with my money he hadn't.

[F1fanatic]

One of my brothers once told me that he never lent money to anyone (apart from family and friends he KNEW he could trust) as he would rather fall out with someone because he would not lend them money - than fall out with them because they would not pay it back...

Good advice.

Edited December 6, 2010 by F1fanatic

[TheyCallmeScooter]

A very well-written reply, thanks for making the effort ;-)

I have actually never been cheated by them before. Of course that didn't mean it would never happen - after all, one time must be the first. But if the first one will also be the last is all up to me. I can say that for all coming "proposals", I will use the card which has "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" printed on it. If that's an Ace or not, depends on the situation. In my opinion, it is.

Thank you for taking my comments in the tone they were intended, even though I realise now I was probably too quick to jump to the whole "they're smarter than..." claims - truth be told, I've only recently become aware of just how freakishly brilliant (almost frighteningly so) so many Thais are and it's a bit of a fascination for me. They play a spectacular, almost glorious (when viewed objectively sans emotion) charade - this almost perfect combination of "I don't understand" / outrageously illogical statements made with a straight face / instructional tsk-tsk if you've breached cultural sensitivities by starting to 'win' a logical argument / ridiculous questions with perfectly feigned confusion / perfect English that turns almost decidedly pidgin when they're in a tight spot / and much more of course...all whilst, if one was able to check one's ego at the door, one realises point-blank they're just being out-manipulated by a superior mind. I have no small measure of ego, and finally accepting that my last (and first) TG was just point-blank more intelligent than I was really hit me like a thunderbolt clap arriving months after the associated lightning strike which should have 'clued' me in. Thinking back about my ridiculous patronising at times when she had simply outwitted my idiot face lol....just...a freakish genius and I am happy to 'lose' to a superior opponent on any day.

As I always speak my mind, regardless of thought to much at all, I will harp on that I do genuinely feel you should at least *consider* her family's expectations when she married into yours. But I was wrong to be so flippant about it, of course you are right to desire the money not be frivolously frittered away when there are kids involved and real-life stuff to be serious about. Whether or not that non-frittering is ever going to be possible, is another matter altogether. So maybe not giving at all is right after all lol - perhaps it's best kept in reserve for emergencies like medical bills, legal fees, car crashes, college funds, etc where I hope you'd come through for them (though probably best not to be vocal about the fact, or the emergencies will surely materialise).

8 months..... The cheeky sod has been going out, buying expensive phones and stuff rather than returning our money, pleading poverty every time we asked for it back. The other week Mrs. 'Rakers pulled a known Thai trick and lied about having to pay a hospital bill, it worked to the tune of 2k.

Now he is calling to ask for the 2k back that he 'lent' to us when the reality is he still owes us money. Mention to the little git that he still owes us and he throws a strop.

I always enjoy these stories, albeit somewhat bitter-sweet reminiscing. This is like all my childhood / longterm friends though (Australian, Poms, Americans, Filipino - esp Pinoy lol). The FAVOUR they are doing you by repaying a fraction of the money you lent them for an emergency shopping / party binge 16 months overdue...oh lawdy, the FAVOUR they do you when they deign to return a fraction of your money back to you....makes you feel so lucky!!

One of my brothers once told me that he never lent money to anyone (apart from family and friends he KNEW he could trust) as he would rather fall out with someone because he would not lend them money - than fall out with them because they would not pay it back...

Good advice.

Um. I'm a bit tired so apologise if I misread this, but unless he wants to fall out with his family and closest friends, his loaning policy is all horribly skewed.

The most important word I learned lifetime was during my first year in Manila. The word is 'leverage'. I believe it is the single most valuable word / concept in English. Leverage can be LOTS of things, I'm not just talking about baseball bats to knees and thug loan shark ideas of leverage. But the most important aspect of leverage in my opinion, is the understanding that with your family, you never have any. I still 'loan' to family of course, and whilst I'm yet to ever receive a repayment, rather than the disappointment I used to feel, I leverage my loans into (arguably immature) games of racking up guilt points for rainy / lazy days lol. I'm quite sure I'm getting < 10c on the $ value, but as I'm not yet cold enough to be able to say No to family, I figure that's some 10% FREE value.

But if your friend thinks his close friends and family are good people to loan to, in terms of 'risk' of repayment, lol and my commiserations to his inevitable discovery they're arguably the worst two groups for defaulting on loan repayments. At which point, he will either fall out with them or concede they have made him their bitch (as mine have made me - except I get my 10% so who's the real bitch hmm?)

[F1fanatic]

A very well-written reply, thanks for making the effort ;-)

I have actually never been cheated by them before. Of course that didn't mean it would never happen - after all, one time must be the first. But if the first one will also be the last is all up to me. I can say that for all coming "proposals", I will use the card which has "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" printed on it. If that's an Ace or not, depends on the situation. In my opinion, it is.

Thank you for taking my comments in the tone they were intended, even though I realise now I was probably too quick to jump to the whole "they're smarter than..." claims - truth be told, I've only recently become aware of just how freakishly brilliant (almost frighteningly so) so many Thais are and it's a bit of a fascination for me. They play a spectacular, almost glorious (when viewed objectively sans emotion) charade - this almost perfect combination of "I don't understand" / outrageously illogical statements made with a straight face / instructional tsk-tsk if you've breached cultural sensitivities by starting to 'win' a logical argument / ridiculous questions with perfectly feigned confusion / perfect English that turns almost decidedly pidgin when they're in a tight spot / and much more of course...all whilst, if one was able to check one's ego at the door, one realises point-blank they're just being out-manipulated by a superior mind. I have no small measure of ego, and finally accepting that my last (and first) TG was just point-blank more intelligent than I was really hit me like a thunderbolt clap arriving months after the associated lightning strike which should have 'clued' me in. Thinking back about my ridiculous patronising at times when she had simply outwitted my idiot face lol....just...a freakish genius and I am happy to 'lose' to a superior opponent on any day.

As I always speak my mind, regardless of thought to much at all, I will harp on that I do genuinely feel you should at least *consider* her family's expectations when she married into yours. But I was wrong to be so flippant about it, of course you are right to desire the money not be frivolously frittered away when there are kids involved and real-life stuff to be serious about. Whether or not that non-frittering is ever going to be possible, is another matter altogether. So maybe not giving at all is right after all lol - perhaps it's best kept in reserve for emergencies like medical bills, legal fees, car crashes, college funds, etc where I hope you'd come through for them (though probably best not to be vocal about the fact, or the emergencies will surely materialise).

8 months..... The cheeky sod has been going out, buying expensive phones and stuff rather than returning our money, pleading poverty every time we asked for it back. The other week Mrs. 'Rakers pulled a known Thai trick and lied about having to pay a hospital bill, it worked to the tune of 2k.

Now he is calling to ask for the 2k back that he 'lent' to us when the reality is he still owes us money. Mention to the little git that he still owes us and he throws a strop.

I always enjoy these stories, albeit somewhat bitter-sweet reminiscing. This is like all my childhood / longterm friends though (Australian, Poms, Americans, Filipino - esp Pinoy lol). The FAVOUR they are doing you by repaying a fraction of the money you lent them for an emergency shopping / party binge 16 months overdue...oh lawdy, the FAVOUR they do you when they deign to return a fraction of your money back to you....makes you feel so lucky!!

One of my brothers once told me that he never lent money to anyone (apart from family and friends he KNEW he could trust) as he would rather fall out with someone because he would not lend them money - than fall out with them because they would not pay it back...

Good advice.

Um. I'm a bit tired so apologise if I misread this, but unless he wants to fall out with his family and closest friends, his loaning policy is all horribly skewed.

The most important word I learned lifetime was during my first year in Manila. The word is 'leverage'. I believe it is the single most valuable word / concept in English. Leverage can be LOTS of things, I'm not just talking about baseball bats to knees and thug loan shark ideas of leverage. But the most important aspect of leverage in my opinion, is the understanding that with your family, you never have any. I still 'loan' to family of course, and whilst I'm yet to ever receive a repayment, rather than the disappointment I used to feel, I leverage my loans into (arguably immature) games of racking up guilt points for rainy / lazy days lol. I'm quite sure I'm getting < 10c on the $ value, but as I'm not yet cold enough to be able to say No to family, I figure that's some 10% FREE value.

But if your friend thinks his close friends and family are good people to loan to, in terms of 'risk' of repayment, lol and my commiserations to his inevitable discovery they're arguably the worst two groups for defaulting on loan repayments. At which point, he will either fall out with them or concede they have made him their bitch (as mine have made me - except I get my 10% so who's the real bitch hmm?)

Yes, you misread my post - read it again....

[jaiyenyen]

I tried to help out my BIL a couple of years back. He and his wife wanted to 'borrow' 10,000 baht to buy stock that they could sell at the local market. I agreed to help out, but instead of giving him the cash, would go with him to the wholesaler and pay the bill.

We went to the wholesaler, and I left him to choose his stock. When the bill was added up it came to 30,000 baht. He was pissed off with me because I told him to put back 20,000 bahts worth because the limit was 10,000, and no more. He asked if he could pay back 1000 baht a month. I told him 500 would be okay. He never paid any back.

A couple of months later, a SIL asked to borrow 100,000 baht. I said, yes, no problem. You give my wife the papers to your land, and you can have them back when you pay back the loan.

That worked!!!! Didn't see her for dust