'Leaked' Reports Blame Thai Military For Some Crackdown Deaths

[whybother]

another sensible post - well done! my view is that if the authorities had dealt with the yellow airport take-over in the same way there could well have been violence there too - but they just sat back and had the future deputy PM go and tell them what a great job they were doing! talk about double standards! what's done is done - we now need an election so the people can actually CHOOSE their government not have it pushed on them due to the last elected government being 'banned' and skulduggery amongst turncoat MP's who jump parties despite being elected on a different platform - and no i don't agree with this happening in other country's either.

I'll just do a cut and paste from responses to a thousand other posts like this over the months.

The yellow shirts were there for 9 days, not two months like the red shirts.

Can you name one MP from either side that hasn't been chosen by the people?

The "last elected government" was made up of several parties of elected MPs. A couple of them were disbanded for cheating, and by-elections were held to replace the banned MPs.

The "turncoat MPs who jumped parties" were all elected by the people. One of those turncoat MPs was reelected at a recent by-election.

[ChiangMaiFun]

another sensible post - well done! my view is that if the authorities had dealt with the yellow airport take-over in the same way there could well have been violence there too - but they just sat back and had the future deputy PM go and tell them what a great job they were doing! talk about double standards! what's done is done - we now need an election so the people can actually CHOOSE their government not have it pushed on them due to the last elected government being 'banned' and skulduggery amongst turncoat MP's who jump parties despite being elected on a different platform - and no i don't agree with this happening in other country's either.

I'll just do a cut and paste from responses to a thousand other posts like this over the months.

The yellow shirts were there for 9 days, not two months like the red shirts.

Can you name one MP from either side that hasn't been chosen by the people?

The "last elected government" was made up of several parties of elected MPs. A couple of them were disbanded for cheating, and by-elections were held to replace the banned MPs.

The "turncoat MPs who jumped parties" were all elected by the people. One of those turncoat MPs was reelected at a recent by-election.

After a major 'event' like that tragedy down in Krung Thep the people need to give the PM a mandate - he has none. Giving the post of DPM to someone who encourages and promotes illegal protests does not encourage peace and reconcilliation does it?

and BTW (referring to your little comment at the bottom of your posts) you can't have 200% of anything as 100% is max! (so there)

[SomTumTiger]

another sensible post - well done! my view is that if the authorities had dealt with the yellow airport take-over in the same way there could well have been violence there too - but they just sat back and had the future deputy PM go and tell them what a great job they were doing! talk about double standards! what's done is done - we now need an election so the people can actually CHOOSE their government not have it pushed on them due to the last elected government being 'banned' and skulduggery amongst turncoat MP's who jump parties despite being elected on a different platform - and no i don't agree with this happening in other country's either.

I'll just do a cut and paste from responses to a thousand other posts like this over the months.

The yellow shirts were there for 9 days, not two months like the red shirts.

Can you name one MP from either side that hasn't been chosen by the people?

The "last elected government" was made up of several parties of elected MPs. A couple of them were disbanded for cheating, and by-elections were held to replace the banned MPs.

The "turncoat MPs who jumped parties" were all elected by the people. One of those turncoat MPs was reelected at a recent by-election.

After a major 'event' like that tragedy down in Krung Thep the people need to give the PM a mandate - he has none. Giving the post of DPM to someone who encourages and promotes illegal protests does not encourage peace and reconcilliation does it?

and BTW (referring to your little comment at the bottom of your posts) you can't have 200% of anything as 100% is max! (so there)

Perhaps he was using "red shirt math" where 10,000 protesters gets turned into 100,000 just by saying so?

[whybother]

quote name='whybother' timestamp='1293797465' post='4121248'

Storming parliament and Thaicom is lack of violence?/quote

At the expense of going over old discussions again, I always made it clear that I was opposed to the disruption caused by the protests. But there was very little violence or serious injury at either 'event'. If I remember correctly, a soldier was shot dead near Thaicom, which was first attributed to friendly fire but then changed to 'don't know'. Compare and contrast with the violence, injuries and deaths post April 10.

The soldier was shot dead after April 10 ... late April or early May, I think.

The red shirts were allowed their peaceful protest at Phan Fa bridge. They were even allowed to roam around Bangkok. They were allowed to threaten to invade barracks. They were allowed to confront soldiers where they were based away from the protests.

They were allowed to do that for several weeks.

They shouldn't be allowed to invade parliament or Thaicom. They shouldn't be allowed to set up camp in the centre of a city.

Where do you draw the line? Protests are dispersed because the become too much of a disruption to people going about their lives.

In most western protests that I can remember, if the protesters started invading buildings the riot police usually moved in. Actually, they would have moved in if there was even an attempt to storm a building. And I can't think of one other "peaceful protest" where the protesters shot at police or threw grenades.

Because that situation of being attacked by a small number of armed insurgent would never be allowed to grow from incubation, it would be caught early.

The April dispersal consisted of the army standing in a line with their shields and batons and the protesters listening to music ... until someone started shooting and grenades were thrown. It hardly gives anyone a chance to do careful intel and surveillance. And then in May, there wasn't much chance to get in amongst the protesters and interview people.

The troubles Northern Ireland are a terrible comparison, considering they happened over many years. Should the Thai army have waited that long?

edit: oops. forgot the <snip>. can't do that when I'm quoting the Quote Nazi

And the protests had been going on for how many weeks? It was long known that there was a small armed element, but this armed element wasn't dealt with, in the several weeks prior to April 10, at all. Thus we ended up with a situation which dragged on for several more weeks and with all the associated carnage.

Whilst the troubles in NI are not a perfect comparison (is there such a thing?), in some respects, they are an excellent one: The problems in NI were far more deeply rooted, going back several centuries. The British security forces were involved on an intense level for decades, sustaining many, many deaths and serious injuries yet showing restraint and intelligent targeted responses to threats except on one tragic day. And at the end of it all, we had genuine reconciliation, with former enemies working together in government. Thailand could learn much from this example, and it's aspirations to becoming a modern first world democracy would be accelerated greatly.

The protest had been going for 4 weeks. There was NO sign of an armed element prior to April 10.

In no respects was Northern Ireland a good comparison. The troubles in Northern Ireland were going on from the 1960's. The police had years to work out who the trouble makers were. Most of the violence wasn't during any protest. Most of the troubles and violence in Northern Ireland was between the Unionists and the Nationalists. They were fighting and killing each other more than the police/army.

Thailand could learn a lot. But it took Northern Ireland nearly 30 years to get there.

The red shirts talk about democracy, but they will only accept it if it goes their way. The red shirt leaders a no different to the "Bangkok elite". The red shirts don't want change. They just want their people in power.

(modified my first quote because too many quotes - don't want the Quote Nazi to complain)

Edited January 1, 2011 by whybother

[whybother]

After a major 'event' like that tragedy down in Krung Thep the people need to give the PM a mandate - he has none. Giving the post of DPM to someone who encourages and promotes illegal protests does not encourage peace and reconcilliation does it?

and BTW (referring to your little comment at the bottom of your posts) you can't have 200% of anything as 100% is max! (so there)

What is a mandate? Did the PPP have it? They didn't get a majority of the vote.

and BTW, you can have 200% of something. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percentage - so there

[Emptyset]

The troubles Northern Ireland are a terrible comparison, considering they happened over many years. Should the Thai army have waited that long?

And the protests had been going on for how many weeks? It was long known that there was a small armed element, but this armed element wasn't dealt with, in the several weeks prior to April 10, at all. Thus we ended up with a situation which dragged on for several more weeks and with all the associated carnage.

The protest had been going for 4 weeks. There was NO sign of an armed element prior to April 10.

In no respects was Northern Ireland a good comparison. The troubles in Northern Ireland were going on from the 1960's. The police had years to work out who the trouble makers were. Most of the violence wasn't during any protest. Most of the troubles and violence in Northern Ireland was between the Unionists and the Nationalists. They were fighting and killing each other more than the police/army.

Thailand could learn a lot. But it took Northern Ireland nearly 30 years to get there.

The red shirts talk about democracy, but they will only accept it if it goes their way. The red shirt leaders a no different to the "Bangkok elite". The red shirts don't want change. They just want their people in power.

(modified my first quote because too many quotes - don't want the Quote Nazi to complain)

Simon is right that there were armed elements involved with many protests in NI though. But yeah, UK forces had it worked out much better (generally) than Thai troops. Anyway, I agree, obviously the solution came from compromise and addressing the genuine grievances.

Anyway, on yr last point about red shirt leaders, I'd agree, but not all of them. The ones that are close to Thaksin, particularly Jatuporn and Nattawud. Although I think even their interests are confused between Thaksin & democracy. Some red shirt leaders are obviously there for reasons little to do with Thaksin and more because of their frustration that democratic processes were subverted, they want genuine democracy and most red shirt theory about the power structure etc comes from this group. The latter group includes Thida, Dr Weng, Sombat, Jaran etc. But I don't think they have much power within the red shirts even now, other leaders had more influence, even though they might even have been outnumbered, due to their proximity to Thaksin, but as I said it's changing... gradually.

[Emptyset]

Reports link two more civilian deaths to Army

By Pravit Rojanaphruk

The Nation

Published on January 1, 2011 <br class="clear-all">

Two more cases from the 10 reports purported to be leaked from the Department of Special Investigation (DSI) claim that soldiers were likely behind the deaths of two more bystanders during the April/May rally.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2011/01/01/national/Reports-link-two-more-civilian-deaths-to-Army-30145562.html

[ChiangMaiFun]

The troubles Northern Ireland are a terrible comparison, considering they happened over many years. Should the Thai army have waited that long?

And the protests had been going on for how many weeks? It was long known that there was a small armed element, but this armed element wasn't dealt with, in the several weeks prior to April 10, at all. Thus we ended up with a situation which dragged on for several more weeks and with all the associated carnage.

The protest had been going for 4 weeks. There was NO sign of an armed element prior to April 10.

In no respects was Northern Ireland a good comparison. The troubles in Northern Ireland were going on from the 1960's. The police had years to work out who the trouble makers were. Most of the violence wasn't during any protest. Most of the troubles and violence in Northern Ireland was between the Unionists and the Nationalists. They were fighting and killing each other more than the police/army.

Thailand could learn a lot. But it took Northern Ireland nearly 30 years to get there.

The red shirts talk about democracy, but they will only accept it if it goes their way. The red shirt leaders a no different to the "Bangkok elite". The red shirts don't want change. They just want their people in power.

(modified my first quote because too many quotes - don't want the Quote Nazi to complain)

Simon is right that there were armed elements involved with many protests in NI though. But yeah, UK forces had it worked out much better (generally) than Thai troops. Anyway, I agree, obviously the solution came from compromise and addressing the genuine grievances.

Anyway, on yr last point about red shirt leaders, I'd agree, but not all of them. The ones that are close to Thaksin, particularly Jatuporn and Nattawud. Although I think even their interests are confused between Thaksin & democracy. Some red shirt leaders are obviously there for reasons little to do with Thaksin and more because of their frustration that democratic processes were subverted, they want genuine democracy and most red shirt theory about the power structure etc comes from this group. The latter group includes Thida, Dr Weng, Sombat, Jaran etc. But I don't think they have much power within the red shirts even now, other leaders had more influence, even though they might even have been outnumbered, due to their proximity to Thaksin, but as I said it's changing... gradually.

good post - intelligent and well thought out - let's forget the NI connection as it's only partly relevant. The issue is that the reds cause IS linked to Thaksin but there are many, many who can see the core issues are nothing to do with Thaksin at all - apart from on TV where there are many, many who cannot see it at all - which is bizarre and called 'blinkered' I believe. I, too, believe that it is the frustration at the lack of transparent democracy that is fuelling this fire - and it hasn't gone out and will not until a fair and just election process takes place (if, indeeed, it can take place at all).

[aaacorp]

It s not like if the Army had already shot civilian on purpose :

Remeber Thammasat University in 76????

Of course youtube videos are still censored in thailand

[Siam Simon]

The protest had been going for 4 weeks. There was NO sign of an armed element prior to April 10.

In no respects was Northern Ireland a good comparison. The troubles in Northern Ireland were going on from the 1960's. The police had years to work out who the trouble makers were. Most of the violence wasn't during any protest. Most of the troubles and violence in Northern Ireland was between the Unionists and the Nationalists. They were fighting and killing each other more than the police/army.

Thailand could learn a lot. But it took Northern Ireland nearly 30 years to get there.

The red shirts talk about democracy, but they will only accept it if it goes their way. The red shirt leaders a no different to the "Bangkok elite". The red shirts don't want change. They just want their people in power.

(modified my first quote because too many quotes - don't want the Quote Nazi to complain)

"The protest had been going for 4 weeks. There was NO sign of an armed element prior to April 10."

So Sae Daeng boasting about his Ronin Warriors wasn't a 'sign'?

Four weeks wasn't enough time to notice rebel gunmen taking up prime sniping positions in the city centre?

Are Army surveillance and Army intel both oxymorons in Thailand prior to conducting operations?

"In no respects was Northern Ireland a good comparison."

It's a good comparison in many respects.

"The troubles in Northern Ireland were going on from the 1960's."

Do a bit more reading. They were going on from nearer the 1660's. Where you from, whybother?

"The police had years to work out who the trouble makers were."

It was a complex, fluid security situation that required complex and fluid responses by the security forces, which was what happened.

"Most of the violence wasn't during any protest. Most of the troubles and violence in Northern Ireland was between the Unionists and the Nationalists. They were fighting and killing each other more than the police/army."

Yes, agreed. This was why the Army got involved: The Police were overwhelmed. And this is one of the major differences between this conflict and the one in Bangkok last year.

"Thailand could learn a lot. But it took Northern Ireland nearly 30 years to get there."

It actually took NI a lot longer than that to get there. Like I said, do a bit more reading. But the modern world moves at a much quicker pace. Thailand could learn a lot very quickly if there was the will. Most of us on this forum understand this, Abhisit and his fellow reformers understand this. But there are some very powerful and selfish entrenched positions on both sides who don't have Thailand's best interests even close to the top of their agenda.

"The red shirts talk about democracy, but they will only accept it if it goes their way. The red shirt leaders a no different to the "Bangkok elite". The red shirts don't want change. They just want their people in power.

(modified my first quote because too many quotes - don't want the Quote Nazi to complain)"

Yes, I agree. That's why we should wholeheartedly support reformers whatever their shirt colour, and expose dinosaurs of all colours and allegiances.

[Siam Simon]

The troubles Northern Ireland are a terrible comparison, considering they happened over many years. Should the Thai army have waited that long?

And the protests had been going on for how many weeks? It was long known that there was a small armed element, but this armed element wasn't dealt with, in the several weeks prior to April 10, at all. Thus we ended up with a situation which dragged on for several more weeks and with all the associated carnage.

The protest had been going for 4 weeks. There was NO sign of an armed element prior to April 10.

In no respects was Northern Ireland a good comparison. The troubles in Northern Ireland were going on from the 1960's. The police had years to work out who the trouble makers were. Most of the violence wasn't during any protest. Most of the troubles and violence in Northern Ireland was between the Unionists and the Nationalists. They were fighting and killing each other more than the police/army.

Thailand could learn a lot. But it took Northern Ireland nearly 30 years to get there.

The red shirts talk about democracy, but they will only accept it if it goes their way. The red shirt leaders a no different to the "Bangkok elite". The red shirts don't want change. They just want their people in power.

(modified my first quote because too many quotes - don't want the Quote Nazi to complain)

Simon is right that there were armed elements involved with many protests in NI though. But yeah, UK forces had it worked out much better (generally) than Thai troops. Anyway, I agree, obviously the solution came from compromise and addressing the genuine grievances.

Anyway, on yr last point about red shirt leaders, I'd agree, but not all of them. The ones that are close to Thaksin, particularly Jatuporn and Nattawud. Although I think even their interests are confused between Thaksin & democracy. Some red shirt leaders are obviously there for reasons little to do with Thaksin and more because of their frustration that democratic processes were subverted, they want genuine democracy and most red shirt theory about the power structure etc comes from this group. The latter group includes Thida, Dr Weng, Sombat, Jaran etc. But I don't think they have much power within the red shirts even now, other leaders had more influence, even though they might even have been outnumbered, due to their proximity to Thaksin, but as I said it's changing... gradually.

good post - intelligent and well thought out - let's forget the NI connection as it's only partly relevant. The issue is that the reds cause IS linked to Thaksin but there are many, many who can see the core issues are nothing to do with Thaksin at all - apart from on TV where there are many, many who cannot see it at all - which is bizarre and called 'blinkered' I believe. I, too, believe that it is the frustration at the lack of transparent democracy that is fuelling this fire - and it hasn't gone out and will not until a fair and just election process takes place (if, indeeed, it can take place at all).

Yes, the Ni connection is only partly relevant, and any comparison from the rest of the World is the same. But whybother and others keep asking for examples of how things could be done differently than they were done in Bangkok last year. So I provided an example of an intelligent, organic response to an internal security threat much more complex than the one that Thailand faced last year which contrasts the 'bull in a china shop' response that is Thailand's Army's stock response. Groundhog Day in Thailand is because of stupid. backward-thinking people (the vast majority of whom are not in their positions on merit) making all the big decisions.

[ChiangMaiFun]

The troubles Northern Ireland are a terrible comparison, considering they happened over many years. Should the Thai army have waited that long?

And the protests had been going on for how many weeks? It was long known that there was a small armed element, but this armed element wasn't dealt with, in the several weeks prior to April 10, at all. Thus we ended up with a situation which dragged on for several more weeks and with all the associated carnage.

The protest had been going for 4 weeks. There was NO sign of an armed element prior to April 10.

In no respects was Northern Ireland a good comparison. The troubles in Northern Ireland were going on from the 1960's. The police had years to work out who the trouble makers were. Most of the violence wasn't during any protest. Most of the troubles and violence in Northern Ireland was between the Unionists and the Nationalists. They were fighting and killing each other more than the police/army.

Thailand could learn a lot. But it took Northern Ireland nearly 30 years to get there.

The red shirts talk about democracy, but they will only accept it if it goes their way. The red shirt leaders a no different to the "Bangkok elite". The red shirts don't want change. They just want their people in power.

(modified my first quote because too many quotes - don't want the Quote Nazi to complain)

Simon is right that there were armed elements involved with many protests in NI though. But yeah, UK forces had it worked out much better (generally) than Thai troops. Anyway, I agree, obviously the solution came from compromise and addressing the genuine grievances.

Anyway, on yr last point about red shirt leaders, I'd agree, but not all of them. The ones that are close to Thaksin, particularly Jatuporn and Nattawud. Although I think even their interests are confused between Thaksin & democracy. Some red shirt leaders are obviously there for reasons little to do with Thaksin and more because of their frustration that democratic processes were subverted, they want genuine democracy and most red shirt theory about the power structure etc comes from this group. The latter group includes Thida, Dr Weng, Sombat, Jaran etc. But I don't think they have much power within the red shirts even now, other leaders had more influence, even though they might even have been outnumbered, due to their proximity to Thaksin, but as I said it's changing... gradually.

good post - intelligent and well thought out - let's forget the NI connection as it's only partly relevant. The issue is that the reds cause IS linked to Thaksin but there are many, many who can see the core issues are nothing to do with Thaksin at all - apart from on TV where there are many, many who cannot see it at all - which is bizarre and called 'blinkered' I believe. I, too, believe that it is the frustration at the lack of transparent democracy that is fuelling this fire - and it hasn't gone out and will not until a fair and just election process takes place (if, indeeed, it can take place at all).

Yes, the Ni connection is only partly relevant, and any comparison from the rest of the World is the same. But whybother and others keep asking for examples of how things could be done differently than they were done in Bangkok last year. So I provided an example of an intelligent, organic response to an internal security threat much more complex than the one that Thailand faced last year which contrasts the 'bull in a china shop' response that is Thailand's Army's stock response. Groundhog Day in Thailand is because of stupid. backward-thinking people (the vast majority of whom are not in their positions on merit) making all the big decisions.

I am not disagreeing - anyway until the Police/Army really are neutral nothing can be done - and there are some things we cannot discuss which have a large impact

[Prapoj]

It s not like if the Army had already shot civilian on purpose :

Remeber Thammasat University in 76????

Of course youtube videos are still censored in thailand

Best not to bring it up. The Thammasat University in 76

[Siam Simon]

Sorry the post was so long, here's a modified version for you

Irrefutable evidence coming up:

First go to this website http://www.fas.org/i.../osc/index.html Look below the official seal of the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, United States of America, and find the link to Public Intelligence.Click on that to reach this site http://publicintelli...d-media-guides/ Scroll down the list of countries on the right hand side until you reach Thailand, click and you reach thissite http://publicintelli...land-documents/ See that second report? Now tell me it's just some blogger.....................And you can assume my replies are "no" as much as you like.

The original version was easier to read, am I right.

Happy New Year

In the absence of any evidence produced by you in reply to the questions, how else should we take your reply but as a "no" to the questions asked?

As for a seal making a website a legitimate government source,

gee... I guess that makes Thaivisa an official U.S.government website now.

p.s. A tip: It's best to take your .org and .net websites as pretty much anything goes and .gov websites as government sourced websites.

Well, at least you didn't edit his post this time, John, which is a start of sorts.

[Roadman]

The troubles Northern Ireland are a terrible comparison, considering they happened over many years. Should the Thai army have waited that long?

And the protests had been going on for how many weeks? It was long known that there was a small armed element, but this armed element wasn't dealt with, in the several weeks prior to April 10, at all. Thus we ended up with a situation which dragged on for several more weeks and with all the associated carnage.

The protest had been going for 4 weeks. There was NO sign of an armed element prior to April 10.

In no respects was Northern Ireland a good comparison. The troubles in Northern Ireland were going on from the 1960's. The police had years to work out who the trouble makers were. Most of the violence wasn't during any protest. Most of the troubles and violence in Northern Ireland was between the Unionists and the Nationalists. They were fighting and killing each other more than the police/army.

Thailand could learn a lot. But it took Northern Ireland nearly 30 years to get there.

The red shirts talk about democracy, but they will only accept it if it goes their way. The red shirt leaders a no different to the "Bangkok elite". The red shirts don't want change. They just want their people in power.

(modified my first quote because too many quotes - don't want the Quote Nazi to complain)

Simon is right that there were armed elements involved with many protests in NI though. But yeah, UK forces had it worked out much better (generally) than Thai troops. Anyway, I agree, obviously the solution came from compromise and addressing the genuine grievances.

Anyway, on yr last point about red shirt leaders, I'd agree, but not all of them. The ones that are close to Thaksin, particularly Jatuporn and Nattawud. Although I think even their interests are confused between Thaksin & democracy. Some red shirt leaders are obviously there for reasons little to do with Thaksin and more because of their frustration that democratic processes were subverted, they want genuine democracy and most red shirt theory about the power structure etc comes from this group. The latter group includes Thida, Dr Weng, Sombat, Jaran etc. But I don't think they have much power within the red shirts even now, other leaders had more influence, even though they might even have been outnumbered, due to their proximity to Thaksin, but as I said it's changing... gradually.

good post - intelligent and well thought out - let's forget the NI connection as it's only partly relevant. The issue is that the reds cause IS linked to Thaksin but there are many, many who can see the core issues are nothing to do with Thaksin at all - apart from on TV where there are many, many who cannot see it at all - which is bizarre and called 'blinkered' I believe. I, too, believe that it is the frustration at the lack of transparent democracy that is fuelling this fire - and it hasn't gone out and will not until a fair and just election process takes place (if, indeeed, it can take place at all).

Yes, the Ni connection is only partly relevant, and any comparison from the rest of the World is the same. But whybother and others keep asking for examples of how things could be done differently than they were done in Bangkok last year. So I provided an example of an intelligent, organic response to an internal security threat much more complex than the one that Thailand faced last year which contrasts the 'bull in a china shop' response that is Thailand's Army's stock response. Groundhog Day in Thailand is because of stupid. backward-thinking people (the vast majority of whom are not in their positions on merit) making all the big decisions.

All very well in theory...oh wait I'll just wave my magic wand and invent a highly effecient anti terrorist unit in a few days. The best that can be taken from the Red led terrorist events in Bangkok is that the Governement and Army are now wise to the need to defend Thailand from such cowardice attack in the future and should now be training those who served in the 2010 operation, and other units loyal to Thailand, to a higher level of achievement.

[Orac]

All very well in theory...oh wait I'll just wave my magic wand and invent a highly effecient anti terrorist unit in a few days. The best that can be taken from the Red led terrorist events in Bangkok is that the Governement and Army are now wise to the need to defend Thailand from such cowardice attack in the future and should now be training those who served in the 2010 operation, and other units loyal to Thailand, to a higher level of achievement.

Maybe they should have deployed the Pattaya SWAT team in their yellow humvee - or did they get lost trying to find Bangkok???

[Buchholz]

Sorry the post was so long, here's a modified version for you

Irrefutable evidence coming up:

First go to this website http://www.fas.org/i.../osc/index.html Look below the official seal of the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, United States of America, and find the link to Public Intelligence.Click on that to reach this site http://publicintelli...d-media-guides/ Scroll down the list of countries on the right hand side until you reach Thailand, click and you reach thissite http://publicintelli...land-documents/ See that second report? Now tell me it's just some blogger.....................And you can assume my replies are "no" as much as you like.

The original version was easier to read, am I right.

Happy New Year

In the absence of any evidence produced by you in reply to the questions, how else should we take your reply but as a "no" to the questions asked?

As for a seal making a website a legitimate government source,

gee... I guess that makes Thaivisa an official U.S.government website now.

p.s. A tip: It's best to take your .org and .net websites as pretty much anything goes and .gov websites as government sourced websites.

Well, at least you didn't edit his post this time

And you nor phiphidon still don't address the point of the post... which is very consistent for you, but then again, it's to be expected that when one doesn't have a reply, one can always obfuscate over some immaterial and nonsensical aspect.

[phiphidon]

Sorry the post was so long, here's a modified version for you

Irrefutable evidence coming up:

First go to this website http://www.fas.org/i.../osc/index.html Look below the official seal of the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, United States of America, and find the link to Public Intelligence.Click on that to reach this site http://publicintelli...d-media-guides/ Scroll down the list of countries on the right hand side until you reach Thailand, click and you reach thissite http://publicintelli...land-documents/ See that second report? Now tell me it's just some blogger.....................And you can assume my replies are "no" as much as you like.

The original version was easier to read, am I right.

Happy New Year

In the absence of any evidence produced by you in reply to the questions, how else should we take your reply but as a "no" to the questions asked?

As for a seal making a website a legitimate government source,

gee... I guess that makes Thaivisa an official U.S.government website now.

p.s. A tip: It's best to take your .org and .net websites as pretty much anything goes and .gov websites as government sourced websites.

Well, at least you didn't edit his post this time

And you nor phiphidon still don't address the point of the post... which is very consistent for you, but then again, it's to be expected that when one doesn't have a reply, one can always obfuscate over some immaterial and nonsensical aspect.

What was the point of your post?

[Buchholz]

In the absence of any evidence produced by you in reply to the questions, how else should we take your reply but as a "no" to the questions asked?

As for a seal making a website a legitimate government source,

gee... I guess that makes Thaivisa an official U.S.government website now.

p.s. A tip: It's best to take your .org and .net websites as pretty much anything goes and .gov websites as government sourced websites.

Well, at least you didn't edit his post this time

And you nor phiphidon still don't address the point of the post... which is very consistent for you, but then again, it's to be expected that when one doesn't have a reply, one can always obfuscate over some immaterial and nonsensical aspect.

What was the point of your post?

*sigh* I thought it was obvious, but, if it's not...

The source of your information is not from official government websites, and thus all we have is some blog saying that the American government said any of it.

Additionally, you have no proof that the government banned the site as you claim and you have no proof the government put pressure on Facebook to close it as you claim.

[phiphidon]

And you nor phiphidon still don't address the point of the post... which is very consistent for you, but then again, it's to be expected that when one doesn't have a reply, one can always obfuscate over some immaterial and nonsensical aspect.

What was the point of your post?

*sigh* I thought it was obvious, but, if it's not...

The source of your information is not from official government websites, and thus all we have is some blog saying that the American government said any of it.

Additionally, you have no proof that the government banned the site as you claim and you have no proof the government put pressure on Facebook to close it as you claim.

The reference to a report that Thai academics were worried about the appearance of anti red shirt online groups that could adversely affect reconcilliation was first brought up by Jayboy in a reply to a post by Pi Sek . One of the examples given in this report was the "Enjoy Red Shirts Dead Bodies" facebook page that Pi Sek agreed was distasteful and disgraceful.

You then state boldly "there is no such page (on facebook) ". I pointed out to you that when you looked it wasn't in existence maybe down to the fact ( I should have said possibility knowing how pedantic you can be) that maybe the Government had shut it down or caused it to be removed (erroneously as it turns out) to avoid such obstacles to reconciliation. I further pointed out that if you didin't accept this version of events perhaps you didn't believe that it existed in the first place.

This obviously hit a nerve and you came back asking me to provide proof it was the American Government, did I know for a fact that this page existed etc. etc. In reply to these questions I provided the 3 links that you at first omitted in your replies. You were (are?) still insistent that this is some work of some blogger who cut and pasted the DNI official seal. Well if this is the work of "some blogger" they've gone to an awful amount of bother to come up with the pages the links provided point to.

I myself tend to believe a site that states that "The Open Source Center was established at the Central Intelligence Agency and succeeds the former Foreign Broadcast Information Serviceand has the official seal of the DNI probably is what it says it is, otherwise I think the American Government and the CIA would have had something to say about the matter before now, or maybe you know different?

As to whether the "Enjoy Red Shirts Dead Bodies" facebook page exists/existed or not, Emptyboy helpfully provided a link. I take it you accessed that link? I checked it then and I have just checked it now, and yes, it does exist and is still available. So I was wrong in one respect, the Thai Government has not removed this link or caused it to be removed. I cannot believe they are not aware of it and can only quote the Academics remarks;

" Academics warn these online campaigns, which they speculate the government quietly endorses, could create an environment "full of fear and hatred" and lead to open violence, outcomes at odds with ongoing government efforts to promote reconciliation."

[Buchholz]

What was the point of your post?

*sigh* I thought it was obvious, but, if it's not...

The source of your information is not from official government websites, and thus all we have is some blog saying that the American government said any of it.

Additionally, you have no proof that the government banned the site as you claim and you have no proof the government put pressure on Facebook to close it as you claim.

The reference to a report that Thai academics were worried about the appearance of anti red shirt online groups that could adversely affect reconcilliation was first brought up by Jayboy in a reply to a post by Pi Sek . One of the examples given in this report was the "Enjoy Red Shirts Dead Bodies" facebook page that Pi Sek agreed was distasteful and disgraceful.

You then state boldly "there is no such page (on facebook) ". I pointed out to you that when you looked it wasn't in existence maybe down to the fact ( I should have said possibility knowing how pedantic you can be) that maybe the Government had shut it down or caused it to be removed (erroneously as it turns out) to avoid such obstacles to reconciliation. I further pointed out that if you didin't accept this version of events perhaps you didn't believe that it existed in the first place.

This obviously hit a nerve and you came back asking me to provide proof it was the American Government, did I know for a fact that this page existed etc. etc. In reply to these questions I provided the 3 links that you at first omitted in your replies. You were (are?) still insistent that this is some work of some blogger who cut and pasted the DNI official seal. Well if this is the work of "some blogger" they've gone to an awful amount of bother to come up with the pages the links provided point to.

I myself tend to believe a site that states that "The Open Source Center was established at the Central Intelligence Agency and succeeds the former Foreign Broadcast Information Serviceand has the official seal of the DNI probably is what it says it is, otherwise I think the American Government and the CIA would have had something to say about the matter before now, or maybe you know different?

As to whether the "Enjoy Red Shirts Dead Bodies" facebook page exists/existed or not, Emptyboy helpfully provided a link. I take it you accessed that link? I checked it then and I have just checked it now, and yes, it does exist and is still available. So I was wrong in one respect, the Thai Government has not removed this link or caused it to be removed. I cannot believe they are not aware of it and can only quote the Academics remarks;

" Academics warn these online campaigns, which they speculate the government quietly endorses, could create an environment "full of fear and hatred" and lead to open violence, outcomes at odds with ongoing government efforts to promote reconciliation."

ok, let's dissect this meandering misrepresentation piece by piece.

First, there IS no such Facebook page called "Enjoy Red Shirts Dead Bodies". What you consider my statement as "boldly" saying, it was, in actuality, simply a brief statement of fact. I'll grant you, however, that simply stating the truth can sometimes be looked upon as bold.

In light of its non-existence, it's impossible that Pi Sek found it "distasteful" and "disgraceful"... other than the notion that IF it did exist, it COULD be described as such. But since it doesn't exist, there is no way to call it that.

When I pointed that out that the Facebook group was not there, you attempted to explain it away with some unproved claims about government interference. It's odd that you would consider being called on for that as being "pedantic" when you assisted Siam Simon with a resulting dozen or so nonsense posts over some imagined rule violation regarding quoting posts which was never done. It's not pedantic to attempt to furrow out the truth.

You initially responded to my questions regarding your unproved claims about government interference was that the quoted website was an American government website, when simply clicking on "About" at that website, it states:

Public Intelligence is an international consortium of independent researchers who wish to aggregate and defend public information while maintaining its accessibility around the globe.

When the ridiculousness of your claim it was an American government website was exposed, you returned with additional weblinks to fas.org and claimed that it was a government website, partially due to its posting of a jpg file of a government seal.

Did you ever look up who FAS is?

Obviously not, but just to help you out, its not a government website. Again, a simple click on "About" on their website reveals:

The Federation of American Scientists, an independent, nonpartisan think tank

You apparently did not take the advice when I facetiously posted the same seal and equated Thaivisa as an official government website. When you state, "I myself tend to believe a site that states", it's very revealing as to the naivety at which you approach Internet research as none of the websites are as you perceived them to be. I hope you don't take Nigerian email scammers with the same level of "belief."

The link "Emptyboy" (a great [sic], btw) provided is not to "Enjoy Red Shirts Dead Bodies". When you "checked it" did you start with the name of the Facebook group? It is not what you purport it to be, it is not "Enjoy Red Shirts Dead Bodies"

When you state, "So I was wrong in one respect", actually, you are wrong in a rather long list of errors.

[phiphidon]

What was the point of your post?

*sigh* I thought it was obvious, but, if it's not...

The source of your information is not from official government websites, and thus all we have is some blog saying that the American government said any of it.

Additionally, you have no proof that the government banned the site as you claim and you have no proof the government put pressure on Facebook to close it as you claim.

The reference to a report that Thai academics were worried about the appearance of anti red shirt online groups that could adversely affect reconcilliation was first brought up by Jayboy in a reply to a post by Pi Sek . One of the examples given in this report was the "Enjoy Red Shirts Dead Bodies" facebook page that Pi Sek agreed was distasteful and disgraceful.

You then state boldly "there is no such page (on facebook) ". I pointed out to you that when you looked it wasn't in existence maybe down to the fact ( I should have said possibility knowing how pedantic you can be) that maybe the Government had shut it down or caused it to be removed (erroneously as it turns out) to avoid such obstacles to reconciliation. I further pointed out that if you didin't accept this version of events perhaps you didn't believe that it existed in the first place.

This obviously hit a nerve and you came back asking me to provide proof it was the American Government, did I know for a fact that this page existed etc. etc. In reply to these questions I provided the 3 links that you at first omitted in your replies. You were (are?) still insistent that this is some work of some blogger who cut and pasted the DNI official seal. Well if this is the work of "some blogger" they've gone to an awful amount of bother to come up with the pages the links provided point to.

I myself tend to believe a site that states that "The Open Source Center was established at the Central Intelligence Agency and succeeds the former Foreign Broadcast Information Serviceand has the official seal of the DNI probably is what it says it is, otherwise I think the American Government and the CIA would have had something to say about the matter before now, or maybe you know different?

As to whether the "Enjoy Red Shirts Dead Bodies" facebook page exists/existed or not, Emptyboy helpfully provided a link. I take it you accessed that link? I checked it then and I have just checked it now, and yes, it does exist and is still available. So I was wrong in one respect, the Thai Government has not removed this link or caused it to be removed. I cannot believe they are not aware of it and can only quote the Academics remarks;

" Academics warn these online campaigns, which they speculate the government quietly endorses, could create an environment "full of fear and hatred" and lead to open violence, outcomes at odds with ongoing government efforts to promote reconciliation."

ok, let's dissect this meandering misrepresentation piece by piece.

First, there IS no such Facebook page called "Enjoy Red Shirts Dead Bodies". What you consider my statement as "boldly" saying, it was, in actuality, simply a brief statement of fact. I'll grant you, however, that simply stating the truth can sometimes be looked upon as bold.

In light of its non-existence, it's impossible that Pi Sek found it "distasteful" and "disgraceful"... other than the notion that IF it did exist, it COULD be described as such. But since it doesn't exist, there is no way to call it that.

When I pointed that out that the Facebook group was not there, you attempted to explain it away with some unproved claims about government interference. It's odd that you would consider being called on for that as being "pedantic" when you assisted Siam Simon with a resulting dozen or so nonsense posts over some imagined rule violation regarding quoting posts which was never done. It's not pedantic to attempt to furrow out the truth.

You initially responded to my questions regarding your unproved claims about government interference was that the quoted website was an American government website, when simply clicking on "About" at that website, it states:

Public Intelligence is an international consortium of independent researchers who wish to aggregate and defend public information while maintaining its accessibility around the globe.

When the ridiculousness of your claim it was an American government website was exposed, you returned with additional weblinks to fas.org and claimed that it was a government website, partially due to its posting of a jpg file of a government seal.

Did you ever look up who FAS is?

Obviously not, but just to help you out, its not a government website. Again, a simple click on "About" on their website reveals:

The Federation of American Scientists, an independent, nonpartisan think tank

You apparently did not take the advice when I facetiously posted the same seal and equated Thaivisa as an official government website. When you state, "I myself tend to believe a site that states", it's very revealing as to the naivety at which you approach Internet research as none of the websites are as you perceived them to be. I hope you don't take Nigerian email scammers with the same level of "belief."

The link "Emptyboy" (a great [sic], btw) provided is not to "Enjoy Red Shirts Dead Bodies". When you "checked it" did you start with the name of the Facebook group? It is not what you purport it to be, it is not "Enjoy Red Shirts Dead Bodies"

When you state, "So I was wrong in one respect", actually, you are wrong in a rather long list of errors.

You really do not respond to criticism well, do you?. Disregarding your snide digs at anybody that disagrees with you or points out that possibly you may be mistaken I did carry out all the investigation you assert that I should have but did not carry out.

As far as the report is concerned I made the fatal mistake of linking your government to it as an official government site. My mistake.

I was well aware of your childish humour regarding the official seal but tell me why any of the reports that they produce should be disregarded as just that of a "blogger" and only worthy of your disdain, for surely that is the point.

Don't shoot the messenger, it's the message that is important and should not be buried under deflecting arguments about whether or not a report that brings the concern of Thai academics to the public at large has been produced on an american government website or not

Thai Academics are concerned by sites such as this and quite rightly so. Now the site;

I do not read Thai and can only assume you are fluent. However I am possessed of certain faculties that enable me to search the internet. I look up the link that Emptyset has supplied. I do not suscribe to facebook but can only think that when you reach a page inviting you to sign up to facebook to connect with glùm sàyp sòp kon sêua daeng and that this very transliteration of the thai script appears above a list of tags leading to a series of disturbing pictures of dead red shirts, then that transliteration is associated with that page ( I must add that I do not have thai script on my word software so use the transliteration for ease).

This transliteration once translated to english reads (group/community/crowd) (to consume) (corpse/dead body) (person/people) (shirt/blouse/t-shirt) (red) a pretty good approximation to "Enjoy Red Shirt Dead Bodies" Facebook page as referred to in the report.

There is an additional box below the main picture of a red shirt who has been shot in the head on this page along with the thai script

pŏm mâi tĕu wâa sêua daeng bpen kon · prór man túk dtua mâi dâi mee sŏon ruam jìt jai dieow gàp pŏm láe man dtông gaa

I tried translating this online but couldn't really make sense of it other that the person who wrote it didn't believe the red shirts something or other. Would be grateful of a translation.

So is this the Facebook page the report was referring to and you say that doesn't exist?

I have already admitted that I am wrong in implying that the Thai Government had blocked or caused to be blocked this disgraceful facebook group - I note that you conveniently ignored the fact that the Thai Government has still not acted on this website page/s . I admit I was wrong in linking the american government to the site that highlighted the report. Hardly a long list of errors.

The report still stands as indeed does the page unless you still insist the page does not exist ( and subsequently accusing me of lying by saying that Pi Sek could not possibly agree that the site was disgusting because it does not exist!)

[Buchholz]

*sigh* I thought it was obvious, but, if it's not...

The source of your information is not from official government websites, and thus all we have is some blog saying that the American government said any of it.

Additionally, you have no proof that the government banned the site as you claim and you have no proof the government put pressure on Facebook to close it as you claim.

The reference to a report that Thai academics were worried about the appearance of anti red shirt online groups that could adversely affect reconcilliation was first brought up by Jayboy in a reply to a post by Pi Sek . One of the examples given in this report was the "Enjoy Red Shirts Dead Bodies" facebook page that Pi Sek agreed was distasteful and disgraceful.

You then state boldly "there is no such page (on facebook) ". I pointed out to you that when you looked it wasn't in existence maybe down to the fact ( I should have said possibility knowing how pedantic you can be) that maybe the Government had shut it down or caused it to be removed (erroneously as it turns out) to avoid such obstacles to reconciliation. I further pointed out that if you didin't accept this version of events perhaps you didn't believe that it existed in the first place.

This obviously hit a nerve and you came back asking me to provide proof it was the American Government, did I know for a fact that this page existed etc. etc. In reply to these questions I provided the 3 links that you at first omitted in your replies. You were (are?) still insistent that this is some work of some blogger who cut and pasted the DNI official seal. Well if this is the work of "some blogger" they've gone to an awful amount of bother to come up with the pages the links provided point to.

I myself tend to believe a site that states that "The Open Source Center was established at the Central Intelligence Agency and succeeds the former Foreign Broadcast Information Serviceand has the official seal of the DNI probably is what it says it is, otherwise I think the American Government and the CIA would have had something to say about the matter before now, or maybe you know different?

As to whether the "Enjoy Red Shirts Dead Bodies" facebook page exists/existed or not, Emptyboy helpfully provided a link. I take it you accessed that link? I checked it then and I have just checked it now, and yes, it does exist and is still available. So I was wrong in one respect, the Thai Government has not removed this link or caused it to be removed. I cannot believe they are not aware of it and can only quote the Academics remarks;

" Academics warn these online campaigns, which they speculate the government quietly endorses, could create an environment "full of fear and hatred" and lead to open violence, outcomes at odds with ongoing government efforts to promote reconciliation."

ok, let's dissect this meandering misrepresentation piece by piece.

First, there IS no such Facebook page called "Enjoy Red Shirts Dead Bodies". What you consider my statement as "boldly" saying, it was, in actuality, simply a brief statement of fact. I'll grant you, however, that simply stating the truth can sometimes be looked upon as bold.

In light of its non-existence, it's impossible that Pi Sek found it "distasteful" and "disgraceful"... other than the notion that IF it did exist, it COULD be described as such. But since it doesn't exist, there is no way to call it that.

When I pointed that out that the Facebook group was not there, you attempted to explain it away with some unproved claims about government interference. It's odd that you would consider being called on for that as being "pedantic" when you assisted Siam Simon with a resulting dozen or so nonsense posts over some imagined rule violation regarding quoting posts which was never done. It's not pedantic to attempt to furrow out the truth.

You initially responded to my questions regarding your unproved claims about government interference was that the quoted website was an American government website, when simply clicking on "About" at that website, it states:

Public Intelligence is an international consortium of independent researchers who wish to aggregate and defend public information while maintaining its accessibility around the globe.

When the ridiculousness of your claim it was an American government website was exposed, you returned with additional weblinks to fas.org and claimed that it was a government website, partially due to its posting of a jpg file of a government seal.

Did you ever look up who FAS is?

Obviously not, but just to help you out, its not a government website. Again, a simple click on "About" on their website reveals:

The Federation of American Scientists, an independent, nonpartisan think tank

You apparently did not take the advice when I facetiously posted the same seal and equated Thaivisa as an official government website. When you state, "I myself tend to believe a site that states", it's very revealing as to the naivety at which you approach Internet research as none of the websites are as you perceived them to be. I hope you don't take Nigerian email scammers with the same level of "belief."

The link "Emptyboy" (a great [sic], btw) provided is not to "Enjoy Red Shirts Dead Bodies". When you "checked it" did you start with the name of the Facebook group? It is not what you purport it to be, it is not "Enjoy Red Shirts Dead Bodies"

When you state, "So I was wrong in one respect", actually, you are wrong in a rather long list of errors.

You really do not respond to criticism well, do you?. Disregarding your snide digs at anybody that disagrees with you or points out that possibly you may be mistaken I did carry out all the investigation you assert that I should have but did not carry out.

As far as the report is concerned I made the fatal mistake of linking your government to it as an official government site. My mistake.

I was well aware of your childish humour regarding the official seal but tell me why any of the reports that they produce should be disregarded as just that of a "blogger" and only worthy of your disdain, for surely that is the point.

Don't shoot the messenger, it's the message that is important and should not be buried under deflecting arguments about whether or not a report that brings the concern of Thai academics to the public at large has been produced on an american government website or not

Thai Academics are concerned by sites such as this and quite rightly so. Now the site;

I do not read Thai and can only assume you are fluent. However I am possessed of certain faculties that enable me to search the internet. I look up the link that Emptyset has supplied. I do not suscribe to facebook but can only think that when you reach a page inviting you to sign up to facebook to connect with glùm sàyp sòp kon sêua daeng and that this very transliteration of the thai script appears above a list of tags leading to a series of disturbing pictures of dead red shirts, then that transliteration is associated with that page ( I must add that I do not have thai script on my word software so use the transliteration for ease).

This transliteration once translated to english reads (group/community/crowd) (to consume) (corpse/dead body) (person/people) (shirt/blouse/t-shirt) (red) a pretty good approximation to "Enjoy Red Shirt Dead Bodies" Facebook page as referred to in the report.

There is an additional box below the main picture of a red shirt who has been shot in the head on this page along with the thai script

pŏm mâi tĕu wâa sêua daeng bpen kon · prór man túk dtua mâi dâi mee sŏon ruam jìt jai dieow gàp pŏm láe man dtông gaa

I tried translating this online but couldn't really make sense of it other that the person who wrote it didn't believe the red shirts something or other. Would be grateful of a translation.

So is this the Facebook page the report was referring to and you say that doesn't exist?

I have already admitted that I am wrong in implying that the Thai Government had blocked or caused to be blocked this disgraceful facebook group - I note that you conveniently ignored the fact that the Thai Government has still not acted on this website page/s . I admit I was wrong in linking the american government to the site that highlighted the report. Hardly a long list of errors.

The report still stands as indeed does the page unless you still insist the page does not exist ( and subsequently accusing me of lying by saying that Pi Sek could not possibly agree that the site was disgusting because it does not exist!)

That's rich that you say I don't respond well to criticism when you go to such lengths to try to defend your own multiple errors and naivety.

My snide-ness emanates from having made multiple responses to your and Siam Simon's lengthy derailment over non-issues of falsely claiming I infringed on some imagined forum rule as well as your continued insistence that these websites were as you repeatedly and erroneously insisted were government websites. It also comes from having to defend a simple and factually correct statement multiple times that the website described does not exist, which started this whole torrent.

As for the emptyboy's web link, I would strongly urge to consult with a Thai as to what the name of the Facebook group is and what is written on it and save yourself the lengthy process you described, which is wrong by the way.

Edited January 3, 2011 by Buchholz

[Scott]

I strongly suggest you stay on topic and stop arguing. I also strongly suggest that people stop with long multiple quotes.

Posts will be deleted and posting holidays will be given.

[Siam Simon]

All very well in theory...oh wait I'll just wave my magic wand and invent a highly effecient anti terrorist unit in a few days. The best that can be taken from the Red led terrorist events in Bangkok is that the Governement and Army are now wise to the need to defend Thailand from such cowardice attack in the future and should now be training those who served in the 2010 operation, and other units loyal to Thailand, to a higher level of achievement.

Good idea, Roadman. You could hardly do a worse job than the Thai military. They've been at it for decades and still haven't worked out how to keep casualties to a minimal level.