Nuff Said Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 My apologies if this matter has been raised earlier, but does moderating this forum constitute working? For that matter, does posting in this forum constitute working? Everybody was sure to submit their work permit when registering for TV, right? Even if it was, how would immigration prove that the poster was in Thailand at the time of the posting? This forum is a version of bar talk, but with one big difference - you don't have to be here to have your two penneth. Most of the discussion on this topic has centred around the issue of working on-line or behind closed doors, where the chances of being discovered are small, unless you can't keep your mouth shut! But some folk seen to be asking for trouble. The following account is 100% genuine and I would take a lie detector test on it if neccessary. I was in a well known foreign owned Chiang Mai bar-restaurant one afternoon about a month ago. I will not name the establishment, so don't ask. Nor do I know the owner. While there, the owner and his lady returned from the cash and carry, loaded with supplies. The owner then proceeded to carry out, in full view of those present, some bar cashiering work. I was gobsmacked and couldn't believe what I was seeing. If immigration had spotted what he was doing they would have thrown the book at him, assuming that he didn't have a work permit for such activities, and I don't think that foreigners are allowed to legally work as cashier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 #181 If immigration had spotted what he was doing they would have thrown the book at him ... Of course that would presume the authorities were previously unaware of what he was doing if without a work permit... On the other hand they may stop in regularly for drinks or other perquisites on-the-house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forkinhades Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 ^ indeed, but raising my question again, so he can own the restaurant and take profits, but cannot be seen to be doing any work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
venturalaw Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 #181 If immigration had spotted what he was doing they would have thrown the book at him ... Of course that would presume the authorities were previously unaware of what he was doing if without a work permit... On the other hand they may stop in regularly for drinks or other perquisites on-the-house. Right. It happened to a former restaurateur in San Sai. Cost him THB30,000 to immigration to stay out of jail. He and his Thai wife ended up selling their establishment within months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 (edited) Well Gee ... I would guess after that San Sai incident maybe every other bar in the province has cleaned up their act... Rick: How can you close me up? On what grounds? Captain Renault: I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here! [a croupier hands Renault a pile of money] Croupier: Your winnings, sir. Captain Renault: [sotto voce] Oh, thank you very much. [aloud] Captain Renault: Everybody out at once! Edited January 28, 2011 by jazzbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuff Said Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 (edited) #181 If immigration had spotted what he was doing they would have thrown the book at him ... Of course that would presume the authorities were previously unaware of what he was doing if without a work permit... On the other hand they may stop in regularly for drinks or other perquisites on-the-house. I don't go there regularly enough to know. But its possible. On the other hand, how would the owner know if one of the beer delivery guys was an under cover immigration officer? ^ indeed, but raising my question again, so he can own the restaurant and take profits, but cannot be seen to be doing any work? Yes. Owning a bar or restaurant is one thing, but carrying out duties which are on the prohibited list for foreigners is another. Those with work permits are only allowed to do the work specified on the document. Over the years I have known several bar owners who did not have work permits. They had one thing in common. They were all parnoind about never doing anything that could be construed as 'work'. Edited January 28, 2011 by Nuff Said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
venturalaw Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Well Gee ... I would guess after that San Sai incident maybe every other bar in the province has cleaned up their act... ... Why would you guess that? Same as Nuff Said, I don't go to bars frequently enough to know. But why assume the incident concerning the restaurant in San Sai would be related to any other businesses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Beats me ... why would you then bring it up in the first place? ... one incident without any detail to discern the circumstances ... maybe some petty official asked the proprietor for a drink on the house and said proprietor told him to buzz off... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
venturalaw Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 (edited) Beats me ... why would you then bring it up in the first place? ... one incident without any detail to discern the circumstances ... maybe some petty official asked the proprietor for a drink on the house and said proprietor told him to buzz off... The topic is "What Constitutes Working In Thailand?" The case in San Sai was about a person working in a business and the penalty he paid for so doing without a WP, which is relevant. Now, what is the relevance of your reference to Star Trek? Rick: How can you close me up? On what grounds? Captain Renault: I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here! [a croupier hands Renault a pile of money] Croupier: Your winnings, sir. Captain Renault: [sotto voce] Oh, thank you very much. [aloud] Captain Renault: Everybody out at once! Edited January 28, 2011 by venturalaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Yes ... you bring up one instance without any info as to why that particular establishment was closed and I intimated that what? now based on that incident every other establishment in the province has seen-the-light and is now fully compliant with IMM and MoL law? BTW Casablanca Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
venturalaw Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Yes ... you bring up one instance without any info as to why that particular establishment was closed and I intimated that what? now based on that incident every other establishment in the province has seen-the-light and is now fully compliant with IMM and MoL law? BTW Casablanca Re-read #184. The establishment was not closed. Immigration discovered that the owner was working in his restaurant and that he did not possess a work permit. He was told to pay THB30,000 and to no longer perform any duties in his restaurant. There was no press or notoriety connected to the incident, so why would you assume that other establishments would be effected, i.e. "seen-the-light"? Then you referred to a television show. Were you attempting to come across as being clever? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 (edited) You are right ... You did not say 'closed'. you said: He and his Thai wife ended up selling their establishment within months...so now it maybe lives on under some other ownership but not the guy out 30K baht. ... and there is I guess no word-of-mouth buzz about bar raids in amongst the bar trade in Chiang Mai... I try not to be clever just simplistic for a portion of the intended audience. ... and regardless of the OP's attempt to define work -- even though the definition is contained in post #2 reference -- what is germane to many persons in this discussion is 'Even though my activities under strict interpretation of the law would require a work permit, how can I continue with those same activities in Thailand and not end up in the slammer?' ... in some cases you maybe can make certain adjustments and then legally continue to do so ... in some cases not... up to you. Edited January 28, 2011 by jazzbo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses G. Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 I try not to be clever just simplistic... Darn decent of you old chap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 I said I try ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
globalhopkinations Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 #176 But as I see it, it's not any different than carrying in the groceries from the car after shopping at the market ... However you are not I presume intending to re-sell the groceries. Your correct and that's why I see it as my view and am asking how others would see it, by this comment I assume your saying I can move my stuff but we need to possibly hire some people to come move the contents of her shop? I'm not trying to be tricky just curious and to be honest it's probably less hassle and cheap enough to to just pay a couple people to help move so I don't have any issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolf5370 Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 My apologies if this matter has been raised earlier, but does moderating this forum constitute working? For that matter, does posting in this forum constitute working? Everybody was sure to submit their work permit when registering for TV, right? Even if it was, how would immigration prove that the poster was in Thailand at the time of the posting? This forum is a version of bar talk, but with one big difference - you don't have to be here to have your two penneth. Most of the discussion on this topic has centred around the issue of working on-line or behind closed doors, where the chances of being discovered are small, unless you can't keep your mouth shut! But some folk seen to be asking for trouble. The following account is 100% genuine and I would take a lie detector test on it if neccessary. I was in a well known foreign owned Chiang Mai bar-restaurant one afternoon about a month ago. I will not name the establishment, so don't ask. Nor do I know the owner. While there, the owner and his lady returned from the cash and carry, loaded with supplies. The owner then proceeded to carry out, in full view of those present, some bar cashiering work. I was gobsmacked and couldn't believe what I was seeing. If immigration had spotted what he was doing they would have thrown the book at him, assuming that he didn't have a work permit for such activities, and I don't think that foreigners are allowed to legally work as cashier. Of course he may have Thai Citizenship (I know a few people that have been here over 30 years when it was not too difficult to get it - one could even be adopted by a Thai and get it - as an adult!). Then, of course, he could do what he likes in s far as any other thai can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuff Said Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 My apologies if this matter has been raised earlier, but does moderating this forum constitute working? For that matter, does posting in this forum constitute working? Everybody was sure to submit their work permit when registering for TV, right? Even if it was, how would immigration prove that the poster was in Thailand at the time of the posting? This forum is a version of bar talk, but with one big difference - you don't have to be here to have your two penneth. Most of the discussion on this topic has centred around the issue of working on-line or behind closed doors, where the chances of being discovered are small, unless you can't keep your mouth shut! But some folk seen to be asking for trouble. The following account is 100% genuine and I would take a lie detector test on it if neccessary. I was in a well known foreign owned Chiang Mai bar-restaurant one afternoon about a month ago. I will not name the establishment, so don't ask. Nor do I know the owner. While there, the owner and his lady returned from the cash and carry, loaded with supplies. The owner then proceeded to carry out, in full view of those present, some bar cashiering work. I was gobsmacked and couldn't believe what I was seeing. If immigration had spotted what he was doing they would have thrown the book at him, assuming that he didn't have a work permit for such activities, and I don't think that foreigners are allowed to legally work as cashier. Of course he may have Thai Citizenship (I know a few people that have been here over 30 years when it was not too difficult to get it - one could even be adopted by a Thai and get it - as an adult!). Then, of course, he could do what he likes in s far as any other thai can. Possible, but in my opinion unlikely. I've been here umpteen years and have yet to meet a foreigner who has Thai Citizenship, or has even applied for it. As you rightly point out, its not easy to get. But there's a first time for everything. Anyway, not to worry, what this particular person did was his business. I just posted what I saw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolf5370 Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Of course he may have Thai Citizenship (I know a few people that have been here over 30 years when it was not too difficult to get it - one could even be adopted by a Thai and get it - as an adult!). Then, of course, he could do what he likes in s far as any other thai can. Possible, but in my opinion unlikely. I've been here umpteen years and have yet to meet a foreigner who has Thai Citizenship, or has even applied for it. As you rightly point out, its not easy to get. But there's a first time for everything. Anyway, not to worry, what this particular person did was his business. I just posted what I saw. Well I know a few - only one is working though - he owns a company (which the staff run pretty much). There are also a few posters here with citizenship too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoratFarang Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Can someone help me with an answer on this. I want to chance some of my furnitures in my house. So to sale the old furnitures i rent a stand for one day on a marked. Would this be working ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forkinhades Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Indeed it would be a chance Can someone help me with an answer on this. I want to chance some of my furnitures in my house. So to sale the old furnitures i rent a stand for one day on a marked. Would this be working ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tombkk Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 #176 But as I see it, it's not any different than carrying in the groceries from the car after shopping at the market ... However you are not I presume intending to re-sell the groceries. Your correct and that's why I see it as my view and am asking how others would see it, by this comment I assume your saying I can move my stuff but we need to possibly hire some people to come move the contents of her shop? I'm not trying to be tricky just curious and to be honest it's probably less hassle and cheap enough to to just pay a couple people to help move so I don't have any issues. I just moved and hired a company. Four people, packing material, truck, a couple of hours work for the people packing the staff, moving all over from second floor in the old house to second floor in the new house (no lifts), three trips with the truck, all together just under THB 8,000. Why oh why would you even consider doing it by yourself? By the way, I explicitely instructed them not to unpack the boxes, because I want to sort everything into the new shelves etc by myself. I don't think it would have cost much more had they also unpacked, and your friend can instruct them to, and supervise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tombkk Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 ^ indeed, but raising my question again, so he can own the restaurant and take profits, but cannot be seen to be doing any work? Wrong wording. Correct would be: "...he cannot do any work" (whether be seen or not). The moment he greets customers or signs a check, he is working. Without a WP, he can be a silent partner, that's all. As a partner (silent or otherwise), he is entitled to divident payments (not monthly profits), so yes, he can make profits without working. If he wants to work, in order to ensure that everything goes the way he (and probably the establishment's customers) want, he must apply for a work permit. I don't think it is difficult to understand. If you stand behind the counter and serve customers, you are working. If you stay behind the scenes but conduct management or accounting, you are working. If you are in front of the bar or sit at one of the guest tables, and actively promote the business by greeting customers and chatting with them, you are working. I believe this is the same as in any other country: If you are a foreigner and work, you need a work permit. In fact, I work in my company (which has nothing to do with restaurants, just saying), and I have a work permit. Why should restaurant owners/managers be exempted? What is so special about them that they want a privilege to work without work permit? By the way, I don't think he will "own" the restaurant outright, as I believe at least 51% of the shares will be owned by a Thai person. Or has this requirement been changed in the meantime? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bifftastic Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 I have the rare luxury of having a Thai girlfriend who's mother is dead, I'm sure you could have put that a different way mate. Yeah, that didn't come over well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tombkk Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Can someone help me with an answer on this. I want to chance some of my furnitures in my house. So to sale the old furnitures i rent a stand for one day on a marked. Would this be working ? Is this a serious question? Selling stuff on ebay is working, and the IRS in several Western countries is sending uncomfortable letters to the sellers! Why would this be more relaxed in Thailand? (OK, the answer is that there is no ebay in Thailand yet.) If you rent a physical stand, what do you think this will constitute? Keep in mind that even if you make no profit and donate your time and all the money received to your preferred charity, you would still need a work permit. I believe this is where Thailand differs from Western countries (but not necessarily from other developing countries): Voluntary work is still work and thus requires a WP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuff Said Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 (edited) Can someone help me with an answer on this. I want to chance some of my furnitures in my house. So to sale the old furnitures i rent a stand for one day on a marked. Would this be working ? It would raise a few eyebrows, but, in my opinion, it isn't working so long as the items for sale are your personal possessions only. Edited January 29, 2011 by Nuff Said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoratFarang Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Can someone help me with an answer on this. I want to chance some of my furnitures in my house. So to sale the old furnitures i rent a stand for one day on a marked. Would this be working ? It would raise a few eyebrows, but, in my opinion, it isn't working so long as the items for sale are your personal possessions only. Yes they are all my old furnitures. To get room for new furnitures i need to sale the old ones. I got 2 answers one is yes it is working and the other one is NO it is not working !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Kuhn KF -- Find some Thai person -- young and attractive female will do -- to act as your agent; give the agent the funds up-front to pay for the stand and then a commission post-sale ... regarding 'work' I don't see how anyone so inclined could argue too hard with that arrangement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuff Said Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 Can someone help me with an answer on this. I want to chance some of my furnitures in my house. So to sale the old furnitures i rent a stand for one day on a marked. Would this be working ? It would raise a few eyebrows, but, in my opinion, it isn't working so long as the items for sale are your personal possessions only. Yes they are all my old furnitures. To get room for new furnitures i need to sale the old ones. I got 2 answers one is yes it is working and the other one is NO it is not working !! There is a third answer, and that's 'maybe'. From a logical point of view, I cannot possibly see how selling a few surplus personal possessions, regardless of the method chosen, can be regarded as work. But 'This is Thailand', and unfortnately logic is in very short supply at times. Why not take a Thai with you to do the actual selling, and just stand close by? Unless you speak the language, it may be difficult to negotiate sales. The Thai can explain that the items are yours, and that he/she is just helping you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mystwoodcol Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 I have not seen an answer to my question yet, can some one advise me please My stepson (Thai) by legal marriage to his Thai mother has an export business. He asks me for advice on matters overseas and I sometime accompany him on trips around the country as he does his business (just so I can get to know the country better) I am not paid by him. Is this considered WORK ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mario2008 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 If you accompany him to the actual business meetings, it can be considered working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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