Many Thais Favour Use Of Cane For Unruly Youths

[selftaopath]

The problem with caning or the threat of it is that it induces fear in young children.

From this threat of fear comes violence, the very thing that it is 'meant' to prevent.

Fear does not reduce violence. It only creates violence.

If as a teacher you cannot command respect go away and do something else.

Pupils will obey their teachers if they respect them otherwise not.

The unruly pupil is only doing what the others would like to do but does not dare to do.

The unruly pupil is the brave one.

Physical violence against children has long been abolished in western societies

and quite rightly so.

What utter rubbish.

There are three fairly common types of students.

Number 0ne. The ones that want to learn, the ones that want to get ahead, the ones that know that without a good education they are not going to achieve anything with their lives and will try their hardest to fit into this system.

They don't need disciplining ever.

Number Two. The ones that know that they are not destined for greatness and are quite happy being mediocre, this is by far the largest group.

They may need a bit of a warning every now and again just to bring them in line with the rest of society, but a public flogging is not required.

Number three. The dweebs, the ner-brains, the mentalists, the ones who are either too lazy to manage to be average, or too dumb to realise that picking on others not in their intellectual bracket is not a good thing, they spend most of their time learning nothing and just being an interruption to the ones that want to learn, even the average ones.

With those you have a choice.... I would go with just removing them from the education system in general, you cannot talk to them, you cannot reason with them, the only thing they understand is "you do bad, you get hurt"

For most students, corporal punishment is not required to be administered, the threat is enough. The ones that do require it shouldn't even be in school.

Sod that violence begets violence, and teachers should be able to command respect nonsense. Some will always be violent and respect no one.

Were you, or are you, an educator/counselor/therapist? Are your views personal, or can we verify them by some form of research?

[animatic]

Not one intelligent reason is given to justify the use of a physical assaults on minors.

If the school system is incapable of managing its current assets and personnel, how then can the proposed physical assaults on children be justified? Look at some of the misfits that are employed as teachers. Should they be allowed to physically touch students? I don't think so.

The attempted restriction in the first place was intended to try and curtail some of the more violent abuses that had occurred. If a student is so far out of control so as to not be able to respond to reason, then a caning is not going to work either. A strict long term discipline regimen is required, i.e. boot camp.

Agreed.

Often those so far out of control are also prone to violence as a tool of power and profit,

and see the violence against them as just 'the bigger dog having his day',

and spurs them on to yet higher levels of violence to become the biggest dog around.

This one is also beyond the pale; canning for " illicit romantic liaisons",

Maybe this is from the Muslim percentage, but still, kids in love get caned for it...so stupid!

'OK children, love is bad and you deserve violence for it,

violence is OK in society, we can beat you for being in love.'

What kind of a warped message does this send?

Remember that children process information in more direct and simpler ways than adults.

Edited January 17, 2011 by animatic

[animatic]

The problem with caning or the threat of it is that it induces fear in young children.

From this threat of fear comes violence, the very thing that it is 'meant' to prevent.

Fear does not reduce violence. It only creates violence.

If as a teacher you cannot command respect go away and do something else.

Pupils will obey their teachers if they respect them otherwise not.

The unruly pupil is only doing what the others would like to do but does not dare to do.

The unruly pupil is the brave one.

Physical violence against children has long been abolished in western societies

and quite rightly so.

What utter rubbish.

There are three fairly common types of students.

Number 0ne. The ones that want to learn, the ones that want to get ahead, the ones that know that without a good education they are not going to achieve anything with their lives and will try their hardest to fit into this system.

They don't need disciplining ever.

Number Two. The ones that know that they are not destined for greatness and are quite happy being mediocre, this is by far the largest group.

They may need a bit of a warning every now and again just to bring them in line with the rest of society, but a public flogging is not required.

Number three. The dweebs, the ner-brains, the mentalists, the ones who are either too lazy to manage to be average, or too dumb to realise that picking on others not in their intellectual bracket is not a good thing, they spend most of their time learning nothing and just being an interruption to the ones that want to learn, even the average ones.

With those you have a choice.... I would go with just removing them from the education system in general, you cannot talk to them, you cannot reason with them, the only thing they understand is "you do bad, you get hurt"

For most students, corporal punishment is not required to be administered, the threat is enough. The ones that do require it shouldn't even be in school.

Sod that violence begets violence, and teachers should be able to command respect nonsense. Some will always be violent and respect no one.

One more group, the proto-psychotics.

And of course they see violence as just another thing they can do to get what they want;

Control of the behavior of others for their own personal gain..

[webfact]

Related topic

Thai Education Minister gives thumbs down to a curfew and caning

Follow this link:

[AleG]

So... in the past corporal punishment was more widespread than today in Thailand, the generations raised under that system now seem to be unable to raise their children with proper moral values. How very unsurprising.

[mark45y]

So... in the past corporal punishment was more widespread than today in Thailand, the generations raised under that system now seem to be unable to raise their children with proper moral values. How very unsurprising.

Actually it would be accurate to say education is a recent phenomenon in Thailand. Caning is about the same now as it was and the moral values are considerably higher now than they were 100 years ago. A little time spent with the history books might be in order.

It was only a generation ago that there were 1000 opium dens in Bangkok, prostitution was legal and well I better stop now. Suffice it to say when I first got to Thailand in the 1960's this was one wild and crazy place. Much calmer now.

[Thaddeus]

The problem with caning or the threat of it is that it induces fear in young children.

From this threat of fear comes violence, the very thing that it is 'meant' to prevent.

Fear does not reduce violence. It only creates violence.

If as a teacher you cannot command respect go away and do something else.

Pupils will obey their teachers if they respect them otherwise not.

The unruly pupil is only doing what the others would like to do but does not dare to do.

The unruly pupil is the brave one.

Physical violence against children has long been abolished in western societies

and quite rightly so.

What utter rubbish.

There are three fairly common types of students.

Number 0ne. The ones that want to learn, the ones that want to get ahead, the ones that know that without a good education they are not going to achieve anything with their lives and will try their hardest to fit into this system.

They don't need disciplining ever.

Number Two. The ones that know that they are not destined for greatness and are quite happy being mediocre, this is by far the largest group.

They may need a bit of a warning every now and again just to bring them in line with the rest of society, but a public flogging is not required.

Number three. The dweebs, the ner-brains, the mentalists, the ones who are either too lazy to manage to be average, or too dumb to realise that picking on others not in their intellectual bracket is not a good thing, they spend most of their time learning nothing and just being an interruption to the ones that want to learn, even the average ones.

With those you have a choice.... I would go with just removing them from the education system in general, you cannot talk to them, you cannot reason with them, the only thing they understand is "you do bad, you get hurt"

For most students, corporal punishment is not required to be administered, the threat is enough. The ones that do require it shouldn't even be in school.

Sod that violence begets violence, and teachers should be able to command respect nonsense. Some will always be violent and respect no one.

Were you, or are you, an educator/counselor/therapist? Are your views personal, or can we verify them by some form of research?

None of the above, but I was involved in the education system between 1965 to 1978.

With my eyes open and not blinkered.

[JohnAllan]

Used in the right circumstances, there is little doubt caning works. And to describe it as violent; to claim it creats violence; is a travesty of logic. Can it seriously be claimed that violence in recent years has declined? The opposite is more likely.

What should be considered is extending caning to the courts, as a further option to sentencing, in appropriate criminal cases.

Many years ago, the UK, under a Labour government, saw fit to not only ban corporal punishment - caning - in schools, but to extend its mandate to force the Isle of Man to discontinue its use of corporal punishment - caning - as a deterrent for certain classes of crime. The rationale? While the effect on the old lady, old gentleman, housewife, etc., who had been the victims of these poor dears didn't enter the equation, it was felt such punishment was too demeaning for the poor, misunderstood, thug on the receiving end. For demeaning, though, read effective.

Since that time, government statistics - the Winston Churchill version - would have one believe crime has fallen; that school discipline has improved. The opposite is true. And successive governments, have been singularly unable to stem the tide.

[Kilgore Trout]

Now theres logic for you, punish children for hitting each other by hitting them

[mark45y]

Now theres logic for you, punish children for hitting each other by hitting them

I am of course open to discussion and/or disagreement but let me tell you about the Thai grade school ruling elite and class structure.

I had this information verified at one school that elected class officers for the grade school. The formal election of officers almost exactly followed the informal peer group pecking order.

Girls ruled the roost. There was a clique of young ladies who did everything, kind of like child NCO's. They were not from the best/smartest class but from the second ranked class. The school had quite a number of positions so the ruling elite encompassed around 15 girls and 5 boys. The boys for muscle only.

It was never OK for anyone to hit the ruling elite. The princess's were above that and if someone violated the norm they were quickly dealt with by teachers and other students.

These kids did everything for the teachers from carrying books, attendance, routine paperwork and so on. They were almost like teacher's aids.

Beneath them were the sports guys who were popular and strong. If you asked about the strongest person in the class there was always almost 100% agreement.

You could also ask who the troublemakers were and again almost 100% agreement. The students would let you know who could not do the work and to give them a coloring book if you wanted the day to go smooth.

I think my easiest class was one fifth grade that had a giant young boy in the class. He was twice as big as any of the other boys. I became friends with him and told him to hit anyone who got out of line. He never had to but the threat of that giant being turned loose kept the others completely in control. It was funny to watch. He stood in the corner with his arms folded and glared and growled at any child who was not working.

The one offense that bothered me was the boys hitting the girls. Thai teachers have a much greater tolerance of this than Western people. Boys are allowed to hit and bruise young girls the same as if it was another male. The girls for the most part tolerate this. Sometimes you get one who goes ballistic and other times you have a screamer but pity the poor quiet little girl, no one is going to protect her. These instances were the only ones that caused me to lose my temper. Once I grabbed a young boy and pulled him off the girl and told him, “you want to hit someone, tough guy? Hit me.”

I feel the high incidence of Thai males beating wives is born in this kind of education environment of tolerance of boys hitting girls.

I can understand not hitting children but in addition to that you have to make sure the children don't hit the smaller weaker children. Hopefully don't hit anyone at all but at least try and create some gentlemen in this country who respect women.

It is a good thing most teachers are female because in the schools with a lot of male teachers some drink a lot during school and it is not unusual to see drunk male teachers on the premises. The gay male teachers did not seem to join in the drinking or canning often.

However my experience is limited because I would not teach at a school long that allowed staff drinking or men canning students. I realize this is sexist but a little woman can't really do much damage with a bamboo stick.

Sure the whole violence thing starts at home but since this thread is about caning in school I limit my comments to that environment.

[InTransit]

(qoute mark45y) I think my easiest class was one fifth grade that had a giant young boy in the class. He was twice as big as any of the other boys. I became friends with him and told him to hit anyone who got out of line. He never had to but the threat of that giant being turned loose kept the others completely in control. It was funny to watch. He stood in the corner with his arms folded and glared and growled at any child who was not working. (end of quote).

From reading your posts i take it you hate the bullies (little punks) as you labelled them in a previous post, but you give the biggest lad in one of your classes "carte blanche" to hit any student that got out of line (regardless of wether he had to or not), double standards is the phrase that springs to mind, i find this totally unacceptable. Who were/are you to give a student in you care the right to hit other students (if needed)? I expect a long drawn out reply from you regarding my post and i am sure you will not disappoint (massive yawn). I hope you have finished your teaching days and i pray to god my children never have the misfortune of being taught by someone with your twisted ethics!!!! :jap:

Edited January 17, 2011 by InTransit

[mark45y]

(qoute mark45y) I think my easiest class was one fifth grade that had a giant young boy in the class. He was twice as big as any of the other boys. I became friends with him and told him to hit anyone who got out of line. He never had to but the threat of that giant being turned loose kept the others completely in control. It was funny to watch. He stood in the corner with his arms folded and glared and growled at any child who was not working. (end of quote).

From reading your posts i take it you hate the bullies (little punks) as you labelled them in a previous post, but you give the biggest lad in one of your classes "carte blanche" to hit any student that got out of line (regardless of wether he had to or not), double standards is the phrase that springs to mind, i find this totally unacceptable. Who were/are you to give a student in you care the right to hit other students (if needed)? I expect a long drawn out reply from you regarding my post and i am sure you will not disappoint (massive yawn). I hope you have finished your teaching days and i pray to god my children never have the misfortune of being taught by someone with your twisted ethics!!!! :jap:

Have you ever met a giant? Did you ever look at a photo of Mohammed Ali next to Wilt Chamberlain? Wilt was a business partner of mine way back when. A nicer gentler man you could never have met. Same thing with this kid. He could have squashed any one he chose but a simple look served to keep order. The kids knew I would not hit them so there was no threat. I only rewarded most of the time.

You can sleep at night I have stopped teaching. I taught on a college level in the States and that was a lot easier than teaching Thai gradeschool and highschool. I also have a degree in Education and have written a number of text books. But don't worry they are all out of print now.

Do you really let your children go to a government school?

[InTransit]

(qoute mark45y) I think my easiest class was one fifth grade that had a giant young boy in the class. He was twice as big as any of the other boys. I became friends with him and told him to hit anyone who got out of line. He never had to but the threat of that giant being turned loose kept the others completely in control. It was funny to watch. He stood in the corner with his arms folded and glared and growled at any child who was not working. (end of quote).

From reading your posts i take it you hate the bullies (little punks) as you labelled them in a previous post, but you give the biggest lad in one of your classes "carte blanche" to hit any student that got out of line (regardless of wether he had to or not), double standards is the phrase that springs to mind, i find this totally unacceptable. Who were/are you to give a student in you care the right to hit other students (if needed)? I expect a long drawn out reply from you regarding my post and i am sure you will not disappoint (massive yawn). I hope you have finished your teaching days and i pray to god my children never have the misfortune of being taught by someone with your twisted ethics!!!! :jap:

Have you ever met a giant? Did you ever look at a photo of Mohammed Ali next to Wilt Chamberlain? Wilt was a business partner of mine way back when. A nicer gentler man you could never have met. Same thing with this kid. He could have squashed any one he chose but a simple look served to keep order. The kids knew I would not hit them so there was no threat. I only rewarded most of the time.

You can sleep at night I have stopped teaching. I taught on a college level in the States and that was a lot easier than teaching Thai gradeschool and highschool. I also have a degree in Education and have written a number of text books. But don't worry they are all out of print now.

Do you really let your children go to a government school?

Thanks for the pic of Ali, he is one of my legends, although the pic makes no sense to me, the bigger they are the harder they fall!!!!

My children are of nursery age at present, i am still pondering which school will best meet there needs when the time comes. I am indeed relieved they are not in danger of being reprimanded by your pet yeti. I acknowledge your warped way of thinking where by a bigger individual can intimidate a smaller child, but surely that is a form of bullying (something we are made to believe you are totally against)? .

[mark45y]

(qoute mark45y) I think my easiest class was one fifth grade that had a giant young boy in the class. He was twice as big as any of the other boys. I became friends with him and told him to hit anyone who got out of line. He never had to but the threat of that giant being turned loose kept the others completely in control. It was funny to watch. He stood in the corner with his arms folded and glared and growled at any child who was not working. (end of quote).

From reading your posts i take it you hate the bullies (little punks) as you labelled them in a previous post, but you give the biggest lad in one of your classes "carte blanche" to hit any student that got out of line (regardless of wether he had to or not), double standards is the phrase that springs to mind, i find this totally unacceptable. Who were/are you to give a student in you care the right to hit other students (if needed)? I expect a long drawn out reply from you regarding my post and i am sure you will not disappoint (massive yawn). I hope you have finished your teaching days and i pray to god my children never have the misfortune of being taught by someone with your twisted ethics!!!! :jap:

Have you ever met a giant? Did you ever look at a photo of Mohammed Ali next to Wilt Chamberlain? Wilt was a business partner of mine way back when. A nicer gentler man you could never have met. Same thing with this kid. He could have squashed any one he chose but a simple look served to keep order. The kids knew I would not hit them so there was no threat. I only rewarded most of the time.

You can sleep at night I have stopped teaching. I taught on a college level in the States and that was a lot easier than teaching Thai gradeschool and highschool. I also have a degree in Education and have written a number of text books. But don't worry they are all out of print now.

Do you really let your children go to a government school?

Thanks for the pic of Ali, he is one of my legends, although the pic makes no sense to me, the bigger they are the harder they fall!!!!

My children are of nursery age at present, i am still pondering which school will best meet there needs when the time comes. I am indeed relieved they are not in danger of being reprimanded by your pet yeti. I acknowledge your warped way of thinking where by a bigger individual can intimidate a smaller child, but surely that is a form of bullying (something we are made to believe you are totally against)? .

We moved a thousand miles. One of the reasons was a school for my youngest daughter. It was a very well thought of school for gifted children from grades 1 through 12. She passed the entrance exams to gain entry to the school and did very well for 12 years and then got a scholarship to college and did even better in college. After college she got an internship with a well known media company in NYC and was on her way to being one of the youngest broadcast media producers in the US. I was impressed, not only was she talented but successful and a genuinely nice person. Then she met a tattooed cook, moved in with him, quit her big time job and says she is in love with him and becoming a pastry chef. It case you didn't know it you can fall in love with a cook and aspire to be a pastry chef with an 8th grade education. I did mention this fact to my offspring and it was not met with enthusiasm. I think her mother chased her around the house with a stick when she first met “the cook.”

In general I would say that it is better to go to a school with small class sizes and no corporal punishment such as my youngest daughter did. But the best laid plans of mice and men sometimes go astray.

The caning I have seen in Thai schools certainly exists on a daily basis but it is not severe and I think most Thais realize it is not severe and really no big deal. Jobs and success in Thailand is not based on achievement anyway. There are far more important issues than corporal punishment in schools to be dealt with. Jobs and promotion based on merit instead of patronage and corruption are in my mind far more important.

As a complete aside even looking at the photo of Ali and Wilt and knowing Wilt was one of the best athletes the world has ever seen, I think Ali would have beaten him. Of course the fight never took place Frazier beating Ali took the big money off the bout and it never happened.

[cup-O-coffee]

This problem is too complicated for the Thai culture to handle. It seems to have spilled over into the adult community.

Problem children need tough love by a tough loving father who relieves the pressure after the appropriate behavior is demonstrated.

It is not the job of a school to punish my son or daughter. They had better not do it either without my participation and approval, or else.

My promise as a loving father is to ensure that my child will be ready to learn for the appropriate time periods, and with the appropriate behavior, in the best conditions of learning environments, and then they will return home safely.

I am certain my son will come across some feral beasts during his educational journey. My relationship with the school board, the director, and his teachers will ensure there are no unclear guidelines regarding his expected education and behavior.

As to the other students who are not fortunate enough to have a loving father such as myself, I will expect the teachers and administration to deal with them so that my son can learn in the manner that the educational system says it will educate him.

They can cane anyone they want, but if a father is willing, then the cane had better be reserved to be placed in his hand, and his hand only.

If the law allows for someone to cane my child, then he will be pulled from the school and home-schooled; or an appropriate and more civil institution will be sought out.

Only animals will hire others to cane their unruly spawn into submission. Humans raise humans to behave and then send them out into the world to broaden their knowledge on the terms of being civil and responsible and self disciplined.

A child who has to be caned or beaten habitually does not have a father; regardless of what you see on the surface, or who that man is that shares the house with him.

Just my two bits worth.