U.S. demands release of American diplomat in Pakistan, says he has immunity

[News_Editor]

U.S. demands release of American diplomat in Pakistan, says he has immunity

2011-01-29 17:40:03 GMT+7 (ICT)

ISLAMABAD (BNO NEWS) -- The United States on Saturday urged authorities in the Pakistani city of Lahore to immediately release an American diplomat who is being held in the shooting deaths of two Pakistani men.

The shooting happened on Thursday in Lahore when Raymond David, a staff member of the U.S. Consulate, was confronted by two armed men on motorcycles. David claimed they were attempting to rob him and said he acted in self-defense.

"The diplomat had every reason to believe that the armed men meant him bodily harm," the U.S. Embassy said in a statement. "Minutes earlier, the two men, who had criminal backgrounds, had robbed money and valuables at gunpoint from a Pakistani citizen in the same area."

The Embassy said David identified himself to police as a diplomat and repeatedly requested immunity under the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations. "Local police and senior authorities failed to observe their legal obligation to verify his status with either the U.S. Consulate General in Lahore or the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad," the statement said. "Furthermore, the diplomat was formally arrested and remanded into custody, which is a violation of international norms and the Vienna Convention, to which Pakistan is a signatory."

Pakistani police have continued to ignore David's diplomatic immunity and indicated that they want to bring him to trial on murder charges.

-- © BNO News All rights reserved 2011-01-29

[hammered]

Withdraw his immunity and make him take responsibility for his criminal actions. He has also damaged the reputation of the States. State armed and funded thug and murderer.

[Ulysses G.]

The diplomat had every reason to believe that the armed men meant him bodily harm," the U.S. Embassy said in a statement. "Minutes earlier, the two men, who had criminal backgrounds, had robbed money and valuables at gunpoint from a Pakistani citizen in the same area."

Free Raymond David!

[TAWP]

He either has immunity or he doesn't - why is the different reports conflicted?

[koheesti]

Withdraw his immunity and make him take responsibility for his criminal actions. He has also damaged the reputation of the States. State armed and funded thug and murderer.

If he was really confronted by armed men - in Pakistan of all places - and got them before they got him then he's made us all proud. I'd rather read about the two dead Pakistani gunmen than another fellow countryman taken hostage.

[wolf5370]

According to he table here Diplomatic_immunity (which may or may not be correct), consular workers do not have the same diplomatoc cover as diplomatic staff in the USA - so why expect other countries to differ?

Only diplomatic agents, Member of the diplomatic administrative and technical staff, and Diplomatic-level staff of missions to international organizations are afforded the no arrest/no detention cover.

USA should either waive the immunity, or Pakistan should expel (if he returns after explusion he can be legally prosecuted for the crime) and publically ask the USA to prosecute on home turf.

Edited January 29, 2011 by wolf5370

[Tywais]

This shows various classes that have full/partial/none immunity. It is from the DOS ID card listings.

BLUE bordered cards are issued to diplomatic officers and their families. they are entitled to full criminal immunity and may not be arrested or detained.

(The specifics of immunity are on the back side of the card)

GREEN bordered cards are issued to embassy administrative and technical staff employees and their families. This card signifies that the bearer is entitled to full criminal immunity and may not be arrested or detained.

GREEN bordered cards are issued to embassy service staff employees. This card signifies that the bearer is entitled to immunity for official acts only.

(The specifics of immunity are on the back side of the cards)

RED bordered cards are issued to career consular officers. This card signifies that the bearer is entitled to immunity for official acts only.

RED bordered cards are issued to career consular employees. This card signifies that the bearer is entitled to immunity for official acts only.

RED bordered cards are issued to consular officers/employees and their families from countries with which the U.S. has special agreements. They are entitled to full criminal immunity and may not be arrested or detained.

Categories of Persons Entitled to Privileges and Immunities

Members of Diplomatic Missions

Diplomatic missions are traditionally the principal communication link between the country that sends them

and the host country. Accordingly, the staffs of diplomatic missions (embassies) are afforded the highest level of

privileges and immunities in the host country in order that they may effectively perform their important duties.

Under modem international law (reflected in the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations), however, there

are different categories of persons within each diplomatic mission, some of whom enjoy greater immunities than

others.

The categories of diplomatic mission personnel are defined primarily with reference to the functions performed.l

Diplomatic agent is the term for ambassadors and the other diplomatic officers who generally have the function of

dealing directly with host country officials. This category enjoys the highest degree of immunity. The next category

is “members of the administrative and technical staff ” of the mission, which includes those persons who support

the activities of diplomatic agents. This category includes secretaries, certain clerical personnel, office managers,

and certain professional security personnel. Members of the administrative and technical staff enjoy privileges and

immunities which in some respects are less than diplomatic agents. Finally, there are the “members of the service

staff ” of the diplomatic mission who perform tasks such as driving, cleaning, and/or grounds maintenance. These

persons are afforded significantly less in the way of privileges and immunities.

Regarding consular offices:

Consular personnel perform a variety of functions of principal interest to their respective sending countries (e.g.,

issuance of travel documents, attending to the difficulties of their own nationals who are in the host country,

and generally promoting the commerce of the sending country). Countries have long recognized the importance

of consular functions to their overall relations, but consular personnel generally do not have the principal role of

providing communication between the two countries-that function is performed by diplomatic agents at embassies in

capitals. The 1963 Vienna Convention on Consular Relations grants a very limited level of privileges and immunities

to consular personnel assigned to consulates that are located outside capitals.

There is a common misunderstanding that consular personnel have diplomatic status and are entitled to diplomatic

immunity.

[flying]

This shows various classes that have full/partial/none immunity. It is from the DOS ID card listings.

Thanks for that chart Tywais

So....what class would this man fall into?

[wolf5370]

This shows various classes that have full/partial/none immunity. It is from the DOS ID card listings.

BLUE bordered cards are issued to diplomatic officers and their families. they are entitled to full criminal immunity and may not be arrested or detained.

(The specifics of immunity are on the back side of the card)

GREEN bordered cards are issued to embassy administrative and technical staff employees and their families. This card signifies that the bearer is entitled to full criminal immunity and may not be arrested or detained.

GREEN bordered cards are issued to embassy service staff employees. This card signifies that the bearer is entitled to immunity for official acts only.

(The specifics of immunity are on the back side of the cards)

RED bordered cards are issued to career consular officers. This card signifies that the bearer is entitled to immunity for official acts only.

RED bordered cards are issued to career consular employees. This card signifies that the bearer is entitled to immunity for official acts only.

RED bordered cards are issued to consular officers/employees and their families from countries with which the U.S. has special agreements. They are entitled to full criminal immunity and may not be arrested or detained.

Categories of Persons Entitled to Privileges and Immunities

Members of Diplomatic Missions

Diplomatic missions are traditionally the principal communication link between the country that sends them

and the host country. Accordingly, the staffs of diplomatic missions (embassies) are afforded the highest level of

privileges and immunities in the host country in order that they may effectively perform their important duties.

Under modem international law (reflected in the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations), however, there

are different categories of persons within each diplomatic mission, some of whom enjoy greater immunities than

others.

The categories of diplomatic mission personnel are defined primarily with reference to the functions performed.l

Diplomatic agent is the term for ambassadors and the other diplomatic officers who generally have the function of

dealing directly with host country officials. This category enjoys the highest degree of immunity. The next category

is "members of the administrative and technical staff " of the mission, which includes those persons who support

the activities of diplomatic agents. This category includes secretaries, certain clerical personnel, office managers,

and certain professional security personnel. Members of the administrative and technical staff enjoy privileges and

immunities which in some respects are less than diplomatic agents. Finally, there are the "members of the service

staff " of the diplomatic mission who perform tasks such as driving, cleaning, and/or grounds maintenance. These

persons are afforded significantly less in the way of privileges and immunities.

Regarding consular offices:

Consular personnel perform a variety of functions of principal interest to their respective sending countries (e.g.,

issuance of travel documents, attending to the difficulties of their own nationals who are in the host country,

and generally promoting the commerce of the sending country). Countries have long recognized the importance

of consular functions to their overall relations, but consular personnel generally do not have the principal role of

providing communication between the two countries-that function is performed by diplomatic agents at embassies in

capitals. The 1963 Vienna Convention on Consular Relations grants a very limited level of privileges and immunities

to consular personnel assigned to consulates that are located outside capitals.

There is a common misunderstanding that consular personnel have diplomatic status and are entitled to diplomatic

immunity.

Yes, that vidicates the link I put up then (wasn't sure it being wikipedia!). So, as consular staff he is not protected from arrest and detention (and prosecution).

[Langsuan Man]

The chart you are citing is the chart used by the United States in dealing with foreign diplomats assigned to US locations, it has absolutely nothing to do with rights and privileges afforded by other countries to US Diplomats, located in their jurisdictions

The chart is issued to local law enforcement in the US and relates to the color of license plates issued to diplomatic missions

There are several "classes" of diplomatic immunity, all of which cover certain aspects of diplomatic immunity. For instance there is full diplomatic immunity, which like it name implies, covers every action of a diplomat. There is transactional diplomatic immunity, which only covers actions of the diplomat in the conduct of his job and is limited in scope

The class of diplomatic immunity is determined by the host country based upon the concept of Quid pro quo and is verified by a list maintained by the host government's office of foreign affairs. If you are on the list, you have a certain class of diplomatic immunity, if you are not on the list, you do not have diplomatic immunity and it is not retroactive. Just because you have a Diplomatic Passport does not mean that you are covered by diplomatic immunity

The statement bandied about concerning Consulates versus Embassies has absolutely nothing to do with their diplomatic immunity status. You can be assigned to an Embassy and not have diplomatic immunity yet be assigned to a Consulate and have diplomatic immunity, once again based upon the various classes of immunity

I will restate, the chart is just a guide for quick reference, specifics are contained in the diplomatic agreements negotiated between countries under the guidelines covered by the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations

[Naam]

Withdraw his immunity and make him take responsibility for his criminal actions. He has also damaged the reputation of the States. State armed and funded thug and murderer.

If he was really confronted by armed men - in Pakistan of all places - and got them before they got him then he's made us all proud. I'd rather read about the two dead Pakistani gunmen than another fellow countryman taken hostage.

not all of us

[koheesti]

Withdraw his immunity and make him take responsibility for his criminal actions. He has also damaged the reputation of the States. State armed and funded thug and murderer.

If he was really confronted by armed men - in Pakistan of all places - and got them before they got him then he's made us all proud. I'd rather read about the two dead Pakistani gunmen than another fellow countryman taken hostage.

not all of us

You aren't "us". You are "them".

[koheesti]

From 20 years ago...

http://articles.latimes.com/1990-03-19/news/mn-576_1_city-parking-violations

Soviets Pile Up Most N.Y. Parking Tickets

March 19, 1990

NEW YORK — For the second straight year, diplomats from the Soviet Union accumulated more city parking violations than representatives from any other country, piling up 7,612 tickets for an estimated $352,720 in fines, a report said Sunday.

Altogether, police issued 53,341 tickets with fines totaling $2 billion to cars registered to the city's 246 consulates and United Nations' missions, the Daily News reported in its fourth annual survey.

----------------

I don't think they had to pay any of them.

[endure]

Withdraw his immunity and make him take responsibility for his criminal actions. He has also damaged the reputation of the States. State armed and funded thug and murderer.

If he was really confronted by armed men - in Pakistan of all places - and got them before they got him then he's made us all proud. I'd rather read about the two dead Pakistani gunmen than another fellow countryman taken hostage.

not all of us

You aren't "us". You are "them".

Do you really mean that? Do you mean that those of us who might disagree with specific actions that the US might take are your enemies? If so it's probably time that the UK stopped sending our troops into areas of battle for your incompetents to commit blue on blue atrocities.

[SerpentSea]

Soviets Pile Up Most N.Y. Parking Tickets

March 19, 1990

NEW YORK — For the second straight year, diplomats from the Soviet Union accumulated more city parking violations than representatives from any other country, piling up 7,612 tickets for an estimated $352,720 in fines, a report said Sunday.

Altogether, police issued 53,341 tickets with fines totaling $2 billion to cars registered to the city's 246 consulates and United Nations' missions, the Daily News reported in its fourth annual survey.

----------------

I don't think they had to pay any of them.

You know the difference between 3 dead Pakistanis, killed by American(US) consulate employees and some unpaid parking tickets issued to Soviet UN diplomats in New York 20 years ago?

[Ulysses G.]

Do you really mean that? Do you mean that those of us who might disagree with specific actions that the US might take are your enemies? If so it's probably time that the UK stopped sending our troops into areas of battle for your incompetents to commit blue on blue atrocities.

It seems that David Cameron is posting on Thai Visa.

[endure]

Do you really mean that? Do you mean that those of us who might disagree with specific actions that the US might take are your enemies? If so it's probably time that the UK stopped sending our troops into areas of battle for your incompetents to commit blue on blue atrocities.

It seems that David Cameron is posting on Thai Visa.

You wish! I wouldn't piss on his head if his hat was on fire

[koheesti]

If he was really confronted by armed men - in Pakistan of all places - and got them before they got him then he's made us all proud. I'd rather read about the two dead Pakistani gunmen than another fellow countryman taken hostage.

not all of us

You aren't "us". You are "them".

Do you really mean that? Do you mean that those of us who might disagree with specific actions that the US might take are your enemies? If so it's probably time that the UK stopped sending our troops into areas of battle for your incompetents to commit blue on blue atrocities.

"us" being Americans. Naam isn't one.

Back in 1995 some American diplomats were killed in traffic in Pakistan by gunmen. I'm sure this guy was well aware of that.

I'm also sure there are more than enough Americans on TV who wouldn't be proud of this guy's actions under any circumstances. However, I am confident that if a poll were taken in the USA, the vast majority would be.

[Theoutsider]

or "us" as in not a terrorist and "them" as collateral damage, insurgents or Mexicans

[Theoutsider]

USA v the world again

Look like Americans get a sense of pride from killing people. They love it.

I'm not sure what planet you're from but I'm sure most of the people on this one support self-defense when confronted by two gunmen on the street.

Speaking for most people, who us or them?

It sound's like you where there you should go to the police.

[koheesti]

Soviets Pile Up Most N.Y. Parking Tickets

March 19, 1990

NEW YORK — For the second straight year, diplomats from the Soviet Union accumulated more city parking violations than representatives from any other country, piling up 7,612 tickets for an estimated $352,720 in fines, a report said Sunday.

Altogether, police issued 53,341 tickets with fines totaling $2 billion to cars registered to the city's 246 consulates and United Nations' missions, the Daily News reported in its fourth annual survey.

----------------

I don't think they had to pay any of them.

You know the difference between 3 dead Pakistanis, killed by American(US) consulate employees and some unpaid parking tickets issued to Soviet UN diplomats in New York 20 years ago?

$352,720?

[koheesti]

USA v the world again

Look like Americans get a sense of pride from killing people. They love it.

I'm not sure what planet you're from but I'm sure most of the people on this one support self-defense when confronted by two gunmen on the street.

Speaking for most people, who us or them?

It sound's like you where there you should go to the police.

Go to the police? In Pakistan? :D

[Theoutsider]

They love to waterboard over there

[bangkokrick]

Withdraw his immunity and make him take responsibility for his criminal actions. He has also damaged the reputation of the States. State armed and funded thug and murderer.

If he was really confronted by armed men - in Pakistan of all places - and got them before they got him then he's made us all proud. I'd rather read about the two dead Pakistani gunmen than another fellow countryman taken hostage.

How can you be proud of a guy that just shot 2 people dead. If the roles had been reversed and in the US. you would be calling for the killers head.

[slapout]

Withdraw his immunity and make him take responsibility for his criminal actions. He has also damaged the reputation of the States. State armed and funded thug and murderer.

Are we reading the same news report? With your vast insight and recommendation for handling this incident, you must have requests for advice by several organizations.

[beechguy]

Withdraw his immunity and make him take responsibility for his criminal actions. He has also damaged the reputation of the States. State armed and funded thug and murderer.

If he was really confronted by armed men - in Pakistan of all places - and got them before they got him then he's made us all proud. I'd rather read about the two dead Pakistani gunmen than another fellow countryman taken hostage.

How can you be proud of a guy that just shot 2 people dead. If the roles had been reversed and in the US. you would be calling for the killers head.

In many places in the U.S. it would be called justifiable homicide, not murder, the guy would probably do a report at the police station and that would be the end of it.

However, since this is Pakistan, does anyone know the legal definition for murder?

Edited January 30, 2011 by beechguy

[Suradit]

Withdraw his immunity and make him take responsibility for his criminal actions. He has also damaged the reputation of the States. State armed and funded thug and murderer.

If he was really confronted by armed men - in Pakistan of all places - and got them before they got him then he's made us all proud. I'd rather read about the two dead Pakistani gunmen than another fellow countryman taken hostage.

not all of us

It all does seem a bit odd. Not absolutely clear, but it sounds as though the consulate staffer was alone and armed.

I stayed in Lahore for a few years not too long ago. Whenever the upper level US consular officers travelled about, even on purely social visits, they were accompanied by the local police. The embassy/consulates also have security officers. I can't imagine they would be all that thrilled about non-security personnel moving about Lahore unaccompanied and carrying a gun.

I always had a driver who provided some protection when travelling about and an armed guard at home. It does seem strange that this guy was apparently moving around alone and carrying a gun, especially if he was supposedly important enough to claim diplomatic immunity. There are a number of simpler ways to protect oneself without risking a diplomatic brouhaha arising from a consular employee shooting a Pakistani national even if the employee was being threatened.

At the very least he was not following the basic security precautions the embassy was forever emailing out to the rest of us US citizens in Pakistan.

[Tywais]

The chart you are citing is the chart used by the United States in dealing with foreign diplomats assigned to US locations, it has absolutely nothing to do with rights and privileges afforded by other countries to US Diplomats, located in their jurisdictions

That's not accurate. The DOS immunity procedures are based directly on the 1963 Vienna convention which the US implemented in, I believe, 1978. As such, it is based on International law. Of course, there may be minor variations on a country by country basis but is overall fundamentally correct.

[bangkokrick]

Withdraw his immunity and make him take responsibility for his criminal actions. He has also damaged the reputation of the States. State armed and funded thug and murderer.

If he was really confronted by armed men - in Pakistan of all places - and got them before they got him then he's made us all proud. I'd rather read about the two dead Pakistani gunmen than another fellow countryman taken hostage.

How can you be proud of a guy that just shot 2 people dead. If the roles had been reversed and in the US. you would be calling for the killers head.

In many places in the U.S. it would be called justifiable homicide, not murder, the guy would probably do a report at the police station and that would be the end of it.

However, since this is Pakistan, does anyone know the legal definition for murder?

In many places in the U.S. it would be called justifiable homicide, not murder, the guy would probably do a report at the police station and that would be the end of it.

I think that you find that the same laws do not apply in Pakistan and that this guy will be tried for murder. US laws do not apply all over the world you know.

[SerpentSea]

Withdraw his immunity and make him take responsibility for his criminal actions. He has also damaged the reputation of the States. State armed and funded thug and murderer.

Are we reading the same news report? With your vast insight and recommendation for handling this incident, you must have requests for advice by several organizations.

Your read probably just reports that repeated the claims and explanation by the American(US) cowboy diplomat. Other news reports contain the following information:

An American “technical advisor” named Raymond Davis, is in police custody in Lahore, Pakistan after a bizarre incident that led to the death of three Pakistanis, one a pedestrian killed in a motor accident and two witness/bystanders killed by gunfire.

...

Davis, driving a rented car with phony license plates, loaded with automatic weapons and advanced Israeli built surveillance gear, was heading toward Mozang Chongi, a market district in Lahore that has been the scene of terror bombings in the past, bombings local residents suspect American contractors such as Davis have had a role in.

...

Witnesses claim that Davis struck and killed a cyclist, Ibadur Rahman, a local trader and attempted to flee the scene in heavy traffic. Two witnesses blocked his path and got off their bicycles and approached his car. One was said to be carrying a licensed weapon but this is disputed.

Davis, aided by a security team in a chase vehicle, gunned down the two civilians.

The US Consulate has claimed that the cyclist, Ibadur Rahman, was killed elsewhere by a Consulate vehicle with diplomatic plates. Witnesses and police dispute this claim.

veteranstoday.com/2011/01/27/gordon-duff-and-raja-mujtaba-diplomat-held-by-pakistan-said-to-be-black-ops-contractor/