Tackling Graft In Thailand Can No Longer Be Seen As A Joke

[SICHONSTEVE]

"It is essential that the anti-corruption agencies cooperate and show that they will not let alleged culprits disappear until investigations are final and the guilty are brought to book".

Does anybody's name spring to mind such as a highly prominent ex-primeminister of Thailand, maybe??

[random]

I don't think it is acceptance of the corruption, based on most Thais I discuss this with it is just an acceptance that they can't do anything about it.

ABAC Poll: Thai people can accept govt corruption

BANGKOK, 6 February 2011 (NNT) - According to ABAC Poll, Thai society can accept government corruption if they can also make the country prosperous, people live happily and also receive some benefits

http://www.thaivisa....ovt-corruption/

As I say, most Thais I discuss this with do not accept corruption, they just accept that there is nothing the can do about it, thanks for wasting everyone's time with another pointless post, polls can read whatver the pollster wants them to read, they choose a demographic that gives them the answer they want, or they alter figures, it is possible the poll says 40% accept, 40% don't accept, 20% are undecided, therefore you can say that 40% don't accept corruption, leaving people to assume that 60% do accept it.

I guess you already know this though since you seem to think you know everything about everything and are just deciding to be condescending again, in fact your posting style is very similar to a banned poster 'sillyman'.

No worries though, in future I will tell all the thais I know that their opinion is wrong because someone on the internet has seen a poll that disagrees with them.

Edited February 17, 2011 by random

[random]

I don't think it is acceptance of the corruption, based on most Thais I discuss this with it is just an acceptance that they can't do anything about it.

ABAC Poll: Thai people can accept govt corruption

BANGKOK, 6 February 2011 (NNT) - According to ABAC Poll, Thai society can accept government corruption if they can also make the country prosperous, people live happily and also receive some benefits

http://www.thaivisa....ovt-corruption/

But if you then ask: would you still accept government corruption if you can also be prosperous (perhaps even more so) without it? I think the answer would be a "no". If the answer is "yes", then there is something wrong with the entire system/culture that results in this because it means people are worried that they would somehow lose out if the $ are not given to grease the wheels.

Corruption is everywhere but in developing type nations it is much more prevalent and accepted. I believe Thais in their general attitude just accept corruption is part of the system and always will be and that is simply the way things get done ... and many times done more efficiently. I think your hypothetical question would be viewed as very unrealistic to most Thais. At least that is my opinion.

ah, so now you agree with me, they don't really accept it but the just accept there is nothing they can do about it.

[SICHONSTEVE]

Something confuses me!!!!

Can someone tell me why its called "graft" when they don't exactly have to work very hard to get this money. What do they do??? they simply hold out their hands, you pass it to them when nobody is looking and they put it in their pocket.!!!! What you get in return is that they will actually do their job of work after this (hard) graft has taken place. Simple, and not a bad little earner!!!

[Steely Dan]

<Snipped for brevity>

In 50 years Singapore will be a financial giant and Thailand will still be Thailand. In the past 60 years Singapore was able to get rid of corruption, Thailand was not. I could tell you why but it is illegal even to discuss the reasons.

my point! I could tell you why but it is illegal even to discuss the reasons.

Perhaps you can broaden and generalise sufficiently to make your point by observing that any society which puts a great deal of effort into telling people what to think while discouraging them from obtaining skills relating to how to think is far more likely to resemble the Truman show than a society which places great emphasis on education and open discussion of social issues.

[Thaddeus]

they don't really accept it but the just accept there is nothing they can do about it.

And the reason they can't do anything about it is that the only Thais with the power to stamp out corruption are the most corrupt of them all.

Yak yak yak, nothing changes.

[SICHONSTEVE]

Let us not forget. Corruption was endemic to 18th Century and early 19th Century England, it was not until all Civil Servants of all stripes were paid a decent living wage and truly independent Civil Service examinations were introduced that corruption eventually fell away to become the the exception rather than the rule. To expect any other approach to work is whistling in the wind.

OK, It all looks simple and reasonable to me - now tell me where the money is going to come from to give everybody a decent living wage in Thailand!!!!!

Another thing, do you honestly believe that corruption has been eleminated in the UK????? Greed just breeds greed and billionaires will do anything to get a few more noughts on to the end of their bank account balances - read Thaksin (stupid if you think about it as how can they spend it all). You can whistle as much as you like my friend, but this ain't gonna fix anything!!! Nice try though

[random]

they don't really accept it but the just accept there is nothing they can do about it.

And the reason they can't do anything about it is that the only Thais with the power to stamp out corruption are the most corrupt of them all.

Yak yak yak, nothing changes.

exactly

[Nisa]

ah, so now you agree with me, they don't really accept it but the just accept there is nothing they can do about it.

I think they accept it is the way it is and they have no issue with it if it gets things done more efficiently and or they benefit from it. I don't believe Thais feel they are incapable of change or honesty but they simply believe corruption is part of the process in getting many things done, especially where big business and government is involved ... and I would have to agree with them. If corruption was of great concern to Thais, as it appears to be with some farangs, then politicians would be getting elected on this platform but the fact is it is not very high on their list right now and the majority of people who elected Thaksin's party had no misconception of his corruption but they believed they benefited from him. In other countries corruption is also common and accepted in getting things done but it is not done as openly or is more organized and made business like to make it appear less overt or offending. I also believe there will come a time in the not too distant future that will cause people in Thailand to demand less obvious corruption and things will change.

[swillowbee]

It cant work because corruption is INGRAINED in THAILAND from top to bottom from POLITICS,GOVERNMENT,POLICE, ARMY,CIVIL SERVICE ,etc,Show me anyone who can make this work and I WILL FLY THEM TO THE MOON..With..Richard Branson on his Virgin Spaceship....are you ready...PM ABIHSIT?

... of course, Barka, you are correct ... corruption is ingrained in the Thai cultural DNA.

... two points:

(i) the Thai system of endemic corruption is a close collaboration between corrupt politicians, corrupt bureacracy and corrupt families controlling a disproportionate share of the economy; and,

(ii) representative (added emphasis on the "representative") democracy works ... elected officials in a representative democracy generally reflect the character and the values of the population who vote them into office ... 64% of Thais accept corruption, with modest conditions ... corruption is a Thai "cultural value".

... institutionalized Thai corruption has now achieved a self-perpetrating critical mass ... changing cultural values in these modern times might only be accomplished by non-Thais ... there are no Mandelas in Thailand ... the Thai with the moral and ethical authority to lead cultural change does not presently exist ... perhaps when the wheels have finally come off, as happened in South Africa, there will be born a Thai Mandela.

... I see Thailand's continued backslide into Gomorrah as a certainty based solely on the inexhorable momentum of inferior Thai cultural values ... there are other Thai cultural values that only exacerbate Thailand's decline.

... as the world moves forward, Thailand's direct competitive set will eventually be reduced to Laos, Cambodia, Burma ... there is in Thailand but a very thin veneer of wealth and public infrastructure, allowing an 'appearance' of modernity (another deficient Thai cultural value), that separates Thailand from them now.

... so, yes ... tackling Thai corruption actually CAN continue to be seen as a joke ... move over Burma, here we come.

Edited February 17, 2011 by swillowbee

[AZBill]

Why don't they start by doing something about all the corrupt police that are always shaking down foreigners. Information on this type of corruption is exported right back to their home countries and it does not reflect well on Thailand. When I'm back in the US and talk to other Americans about Thailand they all view it the same: Beautiful temples, easy women and getting scammed, not necessarily in that order. Not exactly the kind of advertisement you want if you try to attract tourists! In parts of Mexico, there are tourist hotlines where tourists who are victims of police corruption can report the cop and they actually do something about it! In the area where I have a place police shakedowns have declined significantly since this program went into force a few years back (notwitstanding the country is going to hell in a handbasket for other reasons not present in LOS).It's bad enough the citizenry treats the tourists like walking wallets and scams them at every turn. It's worse when law enforecement reenforces that behavior. If you want to start to shake off the handle of a third world country, then stop treating foreigners like second class citizens. Without them Thailand's economy would be in serious trouble.

[jayjay0]

It cant work because corruption is INGRAINED in THAILAND from top to bottom from POLITICS,GOVERNMENT,POLICE, ARMY,CIVIL SERVICE ,etc,Show me anyone who can make this work and I WILL FLY THEM TO THE MOON..With..Richard Branson on his Virgin Spaceship....are you ready...PM ABIHSIT?

While you may not think much of Thai's you are also not very well informed.

The states had it just as bad as Thailand and managed to work there way out of it. Granted it is still there but no where near the size it was.

The problem that arises every time this comes up is that people have no idea of what is involved. They think all you have to do is say don't do it charge a few people and it will go away.

The problem will always be with us (every country) but we can given the time lesson it.

All ready here in Thailand we are starting to work on it. It starts when the people start disapproving of it. Let us not forget that 36% were not in favor of it. This is a figure that will rise as Thailand moves forward. It is a force that can not be stopped. It will take time many people will stick there head in the sand and say it will never change but when they finally pull there head out they will see progress that was not there before.

People say there is no freedom of the press in Thailand and as far as one family go's that is true. But you pull them out of the equation and there is a lot of it. That is why people are becoming more aware of it. It has not grown it is just are awareness of it has. I do not like Abhist yet he is the best man for the job. If by some chance he did not return to power his successor would be forced to continue working to stop corruption. If not he would not last long.:jap:

[jayjay0]

Time does not make any difference. Both Thailand and Singapore were corrupt 60 years ago and after WW II both in bad shape financially Dead Singapore 50,000 7% Thailand 7,700 .04%. Singapore's change had nothing to do with elections. A strong man took control and reformed the place. He realized education was key, and foreign investment and public safety among other things. The fact that Singapore had a British/Chinese work ethic helped.

Singapore people are boring workaholics. Thai people are lazy and fun loving. For fun Singapore imports Thai people.

50 years is not going to make any difference. Singapore and Thailand both were equal 60 years ago. If anything Thailand had an advantage. Compare GNP then and now.

In 50 years Singapore will be a financial giant and Thailand will still be Thailand. In the past 60 years Singapore was able to get rid of corruption, Thailand was not. I could tell you why but it is illegal even to discuss the reasons.

my point! I could tell you why but it is illegal even to discuss the reasons.

I have a perpetual motion machine but I can't tell you how it works it is illegal.

[fire and ice]

The REAL root cause of most of Thailand problems is (largely) caused by a human fault that Thailand has in spaces and needs to be dealt with before the nation will prosper.

That root cause is laziness, or more accurately: SLOTHISM

As an example:- Thailand has endemic corruption largely because people are too lazy to stand up to it, or at the very least were too lazy to prevent it.

Sure there are other things like cultural aspects like feeling one should challenge authority (boss, teachers etc), low education standards, and a complete fear/rejection and denial of ever "needing" help (either individually or as a nation), but a lot of this boils down to slothism too.

Countries where people want to work and want to get up are the more successful ones.

And yes there are more lazy places than Thailand but they are mostly poorer and usually have even more corruption.

I'm not going to tackle the issue of HOW to deal with slothism; for now 'finger-pointing' what I was aiming for, but I believe it is a finger accurately pointed.

Note that I wrote this on the fly so probably some vital things I've left out.

[fire and ice]

Oops I meant to type SHOULD NOT challenge authority.

[inmysights]

Oops I meant to type SHOULD NOT challenge authority.

You've absolutely no idea have you.

OF COURSE they won't 'challenge' authority. This is Asia. Thailand to boot.

You 'challenge' 'authority' - get in someone's face aka cause to ugh, 'lose face', you get dumped on and no one will help you out.

Known fact: Environmentalists get shot here. And have you ever heard of a Thai 'whistle blower? who survived?

Status quo: Keep you head down (discounting little reds and yellows) until ...

[khaowong1]

Time does not make any difference. Both Thailand and Singapore were corrupt 60 years ago and after WW II both in bad shape financially Dead Singapore 50,000 7% Thailand 7,700 .04%. Singapore's change had nothing to do with elections. A strong man took control and reformed the place. He realized education was key, and foreign investment and public safety among other things. The fact that Singapore had a British/Chinese work ethic helped.

Singapore people are boring workaholics. Thai people are lazy and fun loving. For fun Singapore imports Thai people.

50 years is not going to make any difference. Singapore and Thailand both were equal 60 years ago. If anything Thailand had an advantage. Compare GNP then and now.

In 50 years Singapore will be a financial giant and Thailand will still be Thailand. In the past 60 years Singapore was able to get rid of corruption, Thailand was not. I could tell you why but it is illegal even to discuss the reasons.

Don't you love it?

[jayjay0]

Time does not make any difference. Both Thailand and Singapore were corrupt 60 years ago and after WW II both in bad shape financially Dead Singapore 50,000 7% Thailand 7,700 .04%. Singapore's change had nothing to do with elections. A strong man took control and reformed the place. He realized education was key, and foreign investment and public safety among other things. The fact that Singapore had a British/Chinese work ethic helped.

Singapore people are boring workaholics. Thai people are lazy and fun loving. For fun Singapore imports Thai people.

50 years is not going to make any difference. Singapore and Thailand both were equal 60 years ago. If anything Thailand had an advantage. Compare GNP then and now.

In 50 years Singapore will be a financial giant and Thailand will still be Thailand. In the past 60 years Singapore was able to get rid of corruption, Thailand was not. I could tell you why but it is illegal even to discuss the reasons.

You are a funny man. I bet you don't even know what you will have for diner on Feb.18 2012. Yet you can predict fifty years into the future what two countries will be like.:cheesy:

[jayjay0]

Let us not forget. Corruption was endemic to 18th Century and early 19th Century England, it was not until all Civil Servants of all stripes were paid a decent living wage and truly independent Civil Service examinations were introduced that corruption eventually fell away to become the the exception rather than the rule. To expect any other approach to work is whistling in the wind.

OK, It all looks simple and reasonable to me - now tell me where the money is going to come from to give everybody a decent living wage in Thailand!!!!!

Another thing, do you honestly believe that corruption has been eleminated in the UK????? Greed just breeds greed and billionaires will do anything to get a few more noughts on to the end of their bank account balances - read Thaksin (stupid if you think about it as how can they spend it all). You can whistle as much as you like my friend, but this ain't gonna fix anything!!! Nice try though

Maybe you might want to reread cosmosis post. He did not say it was no longer there. He in fact said it was still there. But not in the degree it had been.

Not exactly sure why any one has to be told there is corruption in there country. Common Sense tells them that. It is just a matter of how much. Some countries do better than others. But they all have corruption.

[rubl]

Time does not make any difference. Both Thailand and Singapore were corrupt 60 years ago and after WW II both in bad shape financially Dead Singapore 50,000 7% Thailand 7,700 .04%. Singapore's change had nothing to do with elections. A strong man took control and reformed the place. He realized education was key, and foreign investment and public safety among other things. The fact that Singapore had a British/Chinese work ethic helped.

Singapore people are boring workaholics. Thai people are lazy and fun loving. For fun Singapore imports Thai people.

50 years is not going to make any difference. Singapore and Thailand both were equal 60 years ago. If anything Thailand had an advantage. Compare GNP then and now.

In 50 years Singapore will be a financial giant and Thailand will still be Thailand. In the past 60 years Singapore was able to get rid of corruption, Thailand was not. I could tell you why but it is illegal even to discuss the reasons.

You are a funny man. I bet you don't even know what you will have for diner on Feb.18 2012. Yet you can predict fifty years into the future what two countries will be like.:cheesy:

Predicting what may happen in 50 years time has nothing to do with something simple as choosing dinner next year. The prediction may be based on facts, interpretation, a bit of wishful thinking, opinion.

I have my own opinions, but that has nothing to do with what I may have for dinner tomorrow, the day after or on the 12th of February 2012. To suggest one may effect the value of the other is ridiculous. What that suggestion does though is indicate it's easier to attack the person than his opinion. IMHO

[Nisa]

Time does not make any difference. Both Thailand and Singapore were corrupt 60 years ago and after WW II both in bad shape financially Dead Singapore 50,000 7% Thailand 7,700 .04%. Singapore's change had nothing to do with elections. A strong man took control and reformed the place. He realized education was key, and foreign investment and public safety among other things. The fact that Singapore had a British/Chinese work ethic helped.

Singapore people are boring workaholics. Thai people are lazy and fun loving. For fun Singapore imports Thai people.

50 years is not going to make any difference. Singapore and Thailand both were equal 60 years ago. If anything Thailand had an advantage. Compare GNP then and now.

In 50 years Singapore will be a financial giant and Thailand will still be Thailand. In the past 60 years Singapore was able to get rid of corruption, Thailand was not. I could tell you why but it is illegal even to discuss the reasons.

50 years ago (1960) Singapore was still considered a British Colony.

50 years ago Singapore had the 3rd largest per capita GDP of all East Asia

50 years ago Singapore rated 35th in the world for per capita GDP while Thailand rated 82nd

50 years ago Singapore was a thriving trading port due to its strategic location

Please let us stop pretending Thailand and Singapore were the same 50-years ago.

Edited February 17, 2011 by Nisa

[jayjay0]

Time does not make any difference. Both Thailand and Singapore were corrupt 60 years ago and after WW II both in bad shape financially Dead Singapore 50,000 7% Thailand 7,700 .04%. Singapore's change had nothing to do with elections. A strong man took control and reformed the place. He realized education was key, and foreign investment and public safety among other things. The fact that Singapore had a British/Chinese work ethic helped.

Singapore people are boring workaholics. Thai people are lazy and fun loving. For fun Singapore imports Thai people.

50 years is not going to make any difference. Singapore and Thailand both were equal 60 years ago. If anything Thailand had an advantage. Compare GNP then and now.

In 50 years Singapore will be a financial giant and Thailand will still be Thailand. In the past 60 years Singapore was able to get rid of corruption, Thailand was not. I could tell you why but it is illegal even to discuss the reasons.

You are a funny man. I bet you don't even know what you will have for diner on Feb.18 2012. Yet you can predict fifty years into the future what two countries will be like.:cheesy:

Predicting what may happen in 50 years time has nothing to do with something simple as choosing dinner next year. The prediction may be based on facts, interpretation, a bit of wishful thinking, opinion.

I have my own opinions, but that has nothing to do with what I may have for dinner tomorrow, the day after or on the 12th of February 2012. To suggest one may effect the value of the other is ridiculous. What that suggestion does though is indicate it's easier to attack the person than his opinion. IMHO

Personally I think to make a fifty year prediction is ridiculous. It is predicting what people who are not even born yet will do.

I remain firm with my statement. He is a funny man to do so.

[mca]

Comparing a city state with a population less than Bangkok's with a country of over 60 million people is hardly like for like is it.

[Spee]

Has it been a year already? 55555555555555555555555555555555555

Seriously, these articles seem to pop up every 8-12 months or so, during which time very little if anything has changed.

This kind of change has to come from the top down, and there are no signs of that happening any time soon.

[fire and ice]

Oops I meant to type SHOULD NOT challenge authority.

You've absolutely no idea have you.

OF COURSE they won't 'challenge' authority. This is Asia. Thailand to boot.

You 'challenge' 'authority' - get in someone's face aka cause to ugh, 'lose face', you get dumped on and no one will help you out.

Known fact: Environmentalists get shot here. And have you ever heard of a Thai 'whistle blower? who survived?

Status quo: Keep you head down (discounting little reds and yellows) until ...

You have quoted me correcting a typo in my post immediately above it. Please re-read & you will see this was the second of 2 postings in a row:- my posting and a typo correction. Read my main post first. I was merely pointing out as a fact that Thais rarely challenge authority, it was incidental to my point (SLOTHISM) so I didn't go into it.

[Ned]

People blessed with good karma are in a position to skim the cash. The system is designed for them.

[bangon04]

If the title of the OP is to be taken seriously, then it will seriously limit our possibilities for discussion on this forum....

[tim armstrong]

Singapore is a good example. Maybe we'll never really know what happened, but many people under Lee's regime did go for very long holidays, some still have not returned. But on the plus side I think Lee just drew a line in the sand and the penalty of crossing it was a big deterrent.

But one of the down sides of a cash society is the potential for bribery as 'tips' even at a simple level. But I would much rather a cash system than the credit card approach. Paying the police a decent wage is a very good idea, but arguably (very) having some basic level of social security ismaybe ok ???

Thailand is far from being a poor country, but shifting the balance in wealth and power is going to take some doing, and at least another generation of better educated, more travelled thais, who believe they have a choice over who they marry, what job they do, what education they get, where they live and what they do with their own money. I'm not sure where the boundary lies between incentive and corruption. Is Paying a policeman 200baht worse than a hedge fund manager getting 500,000 commission for 'information'?