Red Shirt Leader Jatuporn To Reveal 'Solid Evidence' Of Abhisit's UK Citizenship

[Emptyset]

The two speeches in question are two speeches by Nattawut and Arisaman, in which the use of petrol and the burning of city halls was mentioned, in case of dispersal respectively of a military coup (as far as i am aware, as the important part regarding a coup in nattawut's speech has been cut out by in infamous youtube video).

It wasn't just city halls that the protesters were being directed to burn down, there was a long and extensive list of targets.

According to Arisaman in the video, his list of targets for burning are:

Siriraj Hospital,

All Muslim Mosques,

Government House,

Important Ministries,

Airports,

Rajavithi Road,

Bridges,

Bank of Thailand,

Commercial Banks,

Military Barracks,

Court of Justice,

and NGO's

will all be destroyed.

His retort is:

"Not one of these will remain standing."

Yeah, he's reading a government list of where they think red shirt militants would target. He didn't pick the targets himself, so there's no special meaning to look for...

[Buchholz]

The two speeches in question are two speeches by Nattawut and Arisaman, in which the use of petrol and the burning of city halls was mentioned, in case of dispersal respectively of a military coup (as far as i am aware, as the important part regarding a coup in nattawut's speech has been cut out by in infamous youtube video).

It wasn't just city halls that the protesters were being directed to burn down, there was a long and extensive list of targets.

According to Arisaman in the video, his list of targets for burning are:

Siriraj Hospital,

All Muslim Mosques,

Government House,

Important Ministries,

Airports,

Rajavithi Road,

Bridges,

Bank of Thailand,

Commercial Banks,

Military Barracks,

Court of Justice,

and NGO's

will all be destroyed.

His retort is:

"Not one of these will remain standing."

btw, there are 3,494 mosques and 56 airports in Thailand.

No info on the number of other targets like bridges and banks, etc.

[JimsKnight]

Where did the native Thai people come from in the first instance

The Khmer Empire, The Mon Empire, Isaan natives who predate the Chinese 'Tai' who came along in the 13th century.

Think of it as the Norman Conquest (except it was 1200 AD) with the 'Tai' as the overlords who swept south from China, they then married in with the native 'nobility' and defeated the Khmer's and Mon locals...

'Thai' is the result of the historical continuation from about 1200 AD onwards...

[mca]

If it is of further interest - she is a very charming, friendly, and intelligent young woman.

If i would not be that married and ten years younger i would develop a serious crush on her.

Imagine if back in the day you started dating her having no idea who her father was and she said " My dad's invited you round for dinner. He'd like to meet you." and you said " What does he do for a job then? Bank manager or something? "

[nicknostitz]

If it is of further interest - she is a very charming, friendly, and intelligent young woman.

If i would not be that married and ten years younger i would develop a serious crush on her.

Imagine if back in the day you started dating her having no idea who her father was and she said " My dad's invited you round for dinner. He'd like to meet you." and you said " What does he do for a job then? Bank manager or something? "

Sae Daeng had of course a very violent side, and was very possibly responsible for quite a bit of awful violence, but on a personal level Sae Daeng was a very likable man.

He was quite crazy at times, but he was very straightforward, never treated people arrogantly, and was devoid of subtle mind games. You always knew where you stood with him. He was a very complex character, and interviewing him was always an adventure, but never unpleasant. I have often helped other journalists interviewing him, which was never easy, as his Thai was very difficult to understand, and his mind jumped from one point to the other, interrupted by bouts of having to show off his rather insufficient English, which he loved to.

Don't forget that once he was considered a hero of Thailand for quite similar violence he employed himself against what the state then considered as enemies of the state, and was one of the highest decorated combat soldiers of Thailand.

For some of the Red Shirt opponents here my comments on Sae Daeng may sound a bit provocative. I don't deny his dark side, but there was another side to him as well, and i think that to describe the man both aspects of his personality have to be discussed. For many Red Shirts he is a dearly missed hero, the first soldier that was on their side, and who had to pay with his life. He should have been afforded his day in court, and not just killed by a sniper. But that is just my opinion.

[Buchholz]

a "hero", indeed...

[Emptyset]

For some of the Red Shirt opponents here my comments on Sae Daeng may sound a bit provocative. I don't deny his dark side, but there was another side to him as well, and i think that to describe the man both aspects of his personality have to be discussed. For many Red Shirts he is a dearly missed hero, the first soldier that was on their side, and who had to pay with his life. He should have been afforded his day in court, and not just killed by a sniper. But that is just my opinion.

I agree he should've been tried in court, but getting him there might have proved quite problematic. I also suspect that Seh Daeng might have been more a "front man" or even a "scapegoat" for the people that really planned the violence, especially on April 10th. Do you think this is a possibility, Nick? A friend who's quite well-placed told me that it wasn't Seh Daeng who planned the violence on the 10th, but rather more shadowy figures in the background, including the likes of Panlop and Manoon. Seh Daeng might not have even known of it before it happened, yet it seems he was quite probably shot in revenge for it. However, even knowledgeable, well-connected sources can be wrong (mainly I suppose because people lie or spread false rumours deliberately, you can talk to two people equally well placed and get five different stories), so I've given up hope of ever really knowing the truth of who was behind it. Perhaps Seh Daeng really was the "mastermind", I don't know.

[nicknostitz]

Perhaps Seh Daeng really was the "mastermind", I don't know.

The only thing i can say presently about this is that anyone who believes that the killing of Sae Daeng solved the violence of the militant underground supporting the Red Shirts is delusional. On the opposite - the state killing him this way made things quite possibly much worse for the future.

[Robby nz]

I asked this way back on page 11 and have trolled through everything since (most off topic) and have found no answer other than that Jatuporn showed a copy of the birth cert.

However I will try again in the probably vain hope of getting an answer.

Was wondering about Amsterdam getting a copy of the PM's birth cert.

Isnt a birth cert a personal legal document?

And couldnt anyone with a copy do all sort of crime in your name?

Seem to remember in the dim distant past having lost my UK birth cert and attempting to get a replacement.

Was asked to jump through all sort of hoops to provide proof of who I was.

Didnt go through with it in the end because I found the origonal.

Anyone know if it is that easy to get a copy of anyones birth cert?

And is it legal to do so?

[Insight]

You seemed to be excusing the grenade launches as the military not doing their job of keeping other protesters away.

I don't.

Nevertheless, this was a very complex situation leading up to the incident. But i won't go into this here right now, but i will later on in my book on this whole mess. It is important to see what happened then in context, and for this the space on this forum is just not enough.

What I understand about the Silom rallies is that they were "encouraged" by the military. It was shortly after command of CRES had been given to Anupong. The main point of these rallies was to keep antagonising the red shirts into attacking the protesters thus seriously decrementing their "peaceful protesters" global PR campaign (which many of us in BKK knew by then to be a complete joke). It worked - as far as I recall that day from Twitter messages throughout the day, first Arisman stated something to the effect of "tonight we'll be ready for them" on stage, then during the evening rally the red shirts themselves rallying at the other side maintained extreme discipline while the opposing "pink shirts" hurled abuse at them. Next thing the M79 attacks took place.

This discipline maintained by the red shirts indecently sounded very similar to the control the red shirt guards put under the red shirts on the 10th of April before the M79 attacks took place that evening. I presume it was in order to keep red shirts out of known attack spots.

/edit to add - there was also apparently much celebration within the red shirt camp that evening after the attacks had took place.

Edited February 20, 2011 by Insight

[Emptyset]

The only thing i can say presently about this is that anyone who believes that the killing of Sae Daeng solved the violence of the militant underground supporting the Red Shirts is delusional. On the opposite - the state killing him this way made things quite possibly much worse for the future.

Right. Although there's been a noticeable lack of grenade attacks since he died, it must be said. I suspect that there were different groups of militants involved in the April/May protests, some that were (allegedly) sent by the generals I mentioned above on April 10th, Seh Daeng's group and then some ordinary red shirts that took it upon themselves to become militant. The latter group is the one that should be worried about at present, I guess. The people that were "radicalised" by the protests - I'm not against radicalization or being against the elite in itself, it's a valid position & somewhat understandable, but obviously the use of violence is totally wrongheaded and will do the cause more harm than good.

Especially when it harms ordinary people, which the arson attacks in May did, and some of the bomb attacks that followed in the months after the dispersal. Though that obviously goes without saying.

[nicknostitz]

What I understand about the Silom rallies is that they were "encouraged" by the military. It was shortly after command of CRES had been given to Anupong. The main point of these rallies was to keep antagonising the red shirts into attacking the protesters thus seriously decrementing their "peaceful protesters" global PR campaign (which many of us in BKK knew by then to be a complete joke). It worked - as far as I recall that day from Twitter messages throughout the day, first Arisman stated something to the effect of "tonight we'll be ready for them" on stage, then during the evening rally the red shirts themselves rallying at the other side maintained extreme discipline while the opposing "pink shirts" hurled abuse at them. Next thing the M79 attacks took place.

This discipline maintained by the red shirts indecently sounded very similar to the control the red shirt guards put under the red shirts on the 10th of April before the M79 attacks took place that evening. I presume it was in order to keep red shirts out of known attack spots.

/edit to add - there was also apparently much celebration within the red shirt camp that evening after the attacks had took place.

The tactics did indeed "work" - and the result cost the life of one PAD protester.

Looking at those sort of dirty tactics used by the state (such as Blue Shirts in Pattaya attacking Red Shirts - before Red Shirts have shown any significant violence there), the state has no moral high ground whatsoever, especially because so far there is not only single case in court in which the state has used disproportionate violence against Red Shirt protesters (of which there are many cases).

That exactly has bred, and continues to breed militants under the Red Shirts, and makes it difficult for peaceful leaders to control the protesters.

[Insight]

What I understand about the Silom rallies is that they were "encouraged" by the military. It was shortly after command of CRES had been given to Anupong. The main point of these rallies was to keep antagonising the red shirts into attacking the protesters thus seriously decrementing their "peaceful protesters" global PR campaign (which many of us in BKK knew by then to be a complete joke). It worked - as far as I recall that day from Twitter messages throughout the day, first Arisman stated something to the effect of "tonight we'll be ready for them" on stage, then during the evening rally the red shirts themselves rallying at the other side maintained extreme discipline while the opposing "pink shirts" hurled abuse at them. Next thing the M79 attacks took place.

This discipline maintained by the red shirts indecently sounded very similar to the control the red shirt guards put under the red shirts on the 10th of April before the M79 attacks took place that evening. I presume it was in order to keep red shirts out of known attack spots.

/edit to add - there was also apparently much celebration within the red shirt camp that evening after the attacks had took place.

The tactics did indeed "work" - and the result cost the life of one PAD protester.

Looking at those sort of dirty tactics used by the state (such as Blue Shirts in Pattaya attacking Red Shirts - before Red Shirts have shown any significant violence there), the state has no moral high ground whatsoever, especially because so far there is not only single case in court in which the state has used disproportionate violence against Red Shirt protesters (of which there are many cases).

That exactly has bred, and continues to breed militants under the Red Shirts, and makes it difficult for peaceful leaders to control the protesters.

Yeah, I understand such tactics hardly harbor reconciliation, but the military could equally argue that if they were truly peaceful as they were claiming to be, the PAD lady would still be with us.

[Markaew]

Ok you havent got a link, I always get asked, when I make statements, to provide the link. I am not a red shirt supporter, my parents instilled a conscience and an ability to consider all the facts before making a decision. I wish for a sweeping social change to redistribute some of the wealth into the lower end of the economy. If that aligns me with the reds..carry on. Thugs in action, maybe people fighting for a worthy cause. You like me may be fortunate enough not to live in poverty so we cannot for one minute understand what decades of suppression can do to a person, so cannot comment on their actions. Please think before you post again.

Actually that makes you a communist.

[nicknostitz]

Yeah, I understand such tactics hardly harbor reconciliation, but the military could equally argue that if they were truly peaceful as they were claiming to be, the PAD lady would still be with us.

Yes, they could, and would argue so.

I argue that it was a serious dereliction of duty by the military to have civilians (some of them known to be extremely violent PAD guards) facing protesters of an opposing side (some of them known to be extremely violent as well). The day of the grenades at Silom was the third day in a row of increasing amounts of PAD protesters appearing at the blockades every night, let through and encouraged by the military.

And as i said before - that was not the first time such tactics were used. And lets not go into the many active soldiers that were PAD guards (they didn't just appear there by themselves, and long before the UDD had any organized guard units, and before Sae Daeng trained the King Taksin warriors at Sanam Luang).

[Insight]

Yeah, I understand such tactics hardly harbor reconciliation, but the military could equally argue that if they were truly peaceful as they were claiming to be, the PAD lady would still be with us.

Yes, they could, and would argue so.

I argue that it was a serious dereliction of duty by the military to have civilians (some of them known to be extremely violent PAD guards) facing protesters of an opposing side (some of them known to be extremely violent as well). The day of the grenades at Silom was the third day in a row of increasing amounts of PAD protesters appearing at the blockades every night, let through and encouraged by the military.

And as i said before - that was not the first time such tactics were used. And lets not go into the many active soldiers that were PAD guards (they didn't just appear there by themselves, and long before the UDD had any organized guard units, and before Sae Daeng trained the King Taksin warriors at Sanam Luang).

Military "thugs" the PAD guards may of been, but what was the total reds injured from the anti-red shirt rallies at Silom? You mentioned something about a taxi driver (?) being attacked at one point? Any others?

[rubl]

I agree he should've been tried in court, but getting him there might have proved quite problematic. I also suspect that Seh Daeng might have been more a "front man" or even a "scapegoat" for the people that really planned the violence, especially on April 10th. Do you think this is a possibility, Nick? A friend who's quite well-placed told me that it wasn't Seh Daeng who planned the violence on the 10th, but rather more shadowy figures in the background, including the likes of Panlop and Manoon. Seh Daeng might not have even known of it before it happened, yet it seems he was quite probably shot in revenge for it. However, even knowledgeable, well-connected sources can be wrong (mainly I suppose because people lie or spread false rumours deliberately, you can talk to two people equally well placed and get five different stories), so I've given up hope of ever really knowing the truth of who was behind it. Perhaps Seh Daeng really was the "mastermind", I don't know.

Suggesting Seh Daeng might have been a 'front man', following 'a freind high up told me' and ending with 'perhaps real mastermind' topped with a bit of 'I don't know'.

No offence, but again you succeed in sowing disinformation and possibly discord. I too have spoken with some well-placed persons, even one who's name starts with a P. Can't give you details, old boy, need-to-know applies. Silly really, but there it is.

Read this again, if you feel like it, with Thomas Fuller was interviewing Gen. Khattiya Sawasdiphol, known as "Seh Daeng," when he was shot in the head.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126805541

[MAJIC]

Was wondering about Amsterdam getting a copy of the PM's birth cert.

Isnt a birth cert a personal legal document?

And couldnt anyone with a copy do all sort of crime in your name?

Seem to remember in the dim distant past having lost my UK birth cert and attempting to get a replacement.

Was asked to jump through all sort of hoops to provide proof of who I was.

Didnt go through with it in the end because I found the origonal.

Anyone know if it is that easy to get a copy of anyones birth cert?

And while I am at it did Jatuporn show a copy or just say Amsterdam had it.

After all he has bennknown to tell the odd fib in the past.

Its easy to get a copy of a UK Birth Certificate,as long as you have all the detailed knowledge necessary.

Such as Mothers Maiden Name, age,occupation,Fathers Full Name and Occupation,Place of Birth,and many other simple questions,which only the rightful owner of the Birth Certificate would know, for certain.

Lets just wait and see if Amsterdam,can produce a copy of Abisits UK Birth Certificate,and more to the point,proof that Abhisit has taken up British Citizenship???

[rubl]

Yeah, I understand such tactics hardly harbor reconciliation, but the military could equally argue that if they were truly peaceful as they were claiming to be, the PAD lady would still be with us.

Yes, they could, and would argue so.

I argue that it was a serious dereliction of duty by the military to have civilians (some of them known to be extremely violent PAD guards) facing protesters of an opposing side (some of them known to be extremely violent as well). The day of the grenades at Silom was the third day in a row of increasing amounts of PAD protesters appearing at the blockades every night, let through and encouraged by the military.

And as i said before - that was not the first time such tactics were used. And lets not go into the many active soldiers that were PAD guards (they didn't just appear there by themselves, and long before the UDD had any organized guard units, and before Sae Daeng trained the King Taksin warriors at Sanam Luang).

And remember what they did on October 1976 as well. Oh, sorry about that, too long ago and the late k. Samak said only one unlucky person died then.

Now tell me, didn't the UDD start around 2007 a bit past the October 2006 coup. Wasn't that when 'real' violence by shirts other than Army and Police started. I find too many 'facts' in the replies which seem to be based on 'what everyone knows', or 'says', or a simple 'I don't tell you yet'. The truth is wonderful, but tends to escape all of us, obviously hiding behind facts

Edited February 20, 2011 by rubl

[nicknostitz]

Military "thugs" the PAD guards may of been, but what was the total reds injured from the anti-red shirt rallies at Silom? You mentioned something about a taxi driver (?) being attacked at one point? Any others?

At the day of the grenades i have been with the PAD protesters, so i have no idea if there were any Red Shirts behind the barricades injured.

The taxi driver was not even a Red Shirt, he was just a taxi driver that turned into Silom from Saladaeng, was stopped by PAD guards, and told to turn back into the Soi. Suddenly a soldier came up and pulled the driver out of his taxi. I asked him not to do that (and so did several PAD guards). Suddenly other PAD guards came and began brutally attacking the taxi driver, nearly lynching him. They even beat one PAD guard who tried to protect the driver. These guards and another soldier managed to get the driver into a waiting ambulance.

Soon after the PAD there caught a Red Shirt and stomped him into the ground. Police managed to get him out of there and took him into custody. Then one or two soldiers ran after the police, attacked the arrested Red Shirt, and tried to snatch him from police custody. Nearly a fight between police and soldiers happened then, and as at that end of the road more police than army was, they kept the Red Shirt. Then one or two PAD guys tried to attack me because they were pissed off that i helped protecting the taxi driver, but other PAD guards stopped them.

After the slingshot battle police managed to get between the lines, and chased the PAD guards down Silom. When they tried to arrest some of the PAD guys (who have overturned several parking police motorcycles), the army sheltered the PAD guys behind their lines, and one soldier even pulled a gun on a high ranking police officer.

A wonderful night...

[Insight]

Military "thugs" the PAD guards may of been, but what was the total reds injured from the anti-red shirt rallies at Silom? You mentioned something about a taxi driver (?) being attacked at one point? Any others?

At the day of the grenades i have been with the PAD protesters, so i have no idea if there were any Red Shirts behind the barricades injured.

The taxi driver was not even a Red Shirt, he was just a taxi driver that turned into Silom from Saladaeng, was stopped by PAD guards, and told to turn back into the Soi. Suddenly a soldier came up and pulled the driver out of his taxi. I asked him not to do that (and so did several PAD guards). Suddenly other PAD guards came and began brutally attacking the taxi driver, nearly lynching him. They even beat one PAD guard who tried to protect the driver. These guards and another soldier managed to get the driver into a waiting ambulance.

Soon after the PAD there caught a Red Shirt and stomped him into the ground. Police managed to get him out of there and took him into custody. Then one or two soldiers ran after the police, attacked the arrested Red Shirt, and tried to snatch him from police custody. Nearly a fight between police and soldiers happened then, and as at that end of the road more police than army was, they kept the Red Shirt. Then one or two PAD guys tried to attack me because they were pissed off that i helped protecting the taxi driver, but other PAD guards stopped them.

After the slingshot battle police managed to get between the lines, and chased the PAD guards down Silom. When they tried to arrest some of the PAD guys (who have overturned several parking police motorcycles), the army sheltered the PAD guys behind their lines, and one soldier even pulled a gun on a high ranking police officer.

A wonderful night...

Was this before or after the grenades had gone off?

[rubl]

At the day of the grenades i have been with the PAD protesters, so i have no idea if there were any Red Shirts behind the barricades injured.

We may have passed without knowing. I walked back from UCL, RamaIV to BTS Saladaeng that day, probably between 3 and 4PM. You may not have noticed, I was also wearing a pink shirt

[gemini81]

Military "thugs" the PAD guards may of been, but what was the total reds injured from the anti-red shirt rallies at Silom? You mentioned something about a taxi driver (?) being attacked at one point? Any others?

At the day of the grenades i have been with the PAD protesters, so i have no idea if there were any Red Shirts behind the barricades injured.

The taxi driver was not even a Red Shirt, he was just a taxi driver that turned into Silom from Saladaeng, was stopped by PAD guards, and told to turn back into the Soi. Suddenly a soldier came up and pulled the driver out of his taxi. I asked him not to do that (and so did several PAD guards). Suddenly other PAD guards came and began brutally attacking the taxi driver, nearly lynching him. They even beat one PAD guard who tried to protect the driver. These guards and another soldier managed to get the driver into a waiting ambulance.

Soon after the PAD there caught a Red Shirt and stomped him into the ground. Police managed to get him out of there and took him into custody. Then one or two soldiers ran after the police, attacked the arrested Red Shirt, and tried to snatch him from police custody. Nearly a fight between police and soldiers happened then, and as at that end of the road more police than army was, they kept the Red Shirt. Then one or two PAD guys tried to attack me because they were pissed off that i helped protecting the taxi driver, but other PAD guards stopped them.

After the slingshot battle police managed to get between the lines, and chased the PAD guards down Silom. When they tried to arrest some of the PAD guys (who have overturned several parking police motorcycles), the army sheltered the PAD guys behind their lines, and one soldier even pulled a gun on a high ranking police officer.

A wonderful night...

What do you mean you were with them, right there in the hotspot? Hard to take you seriously unless you can explain. sounds like you're amusing yourself with stories here.

[Emptyset]

Its easy to get a copy of a UK Birth Certificate,as long as you have all the detailed knowledge necessary.

Such as Mothers Maiden Name, age,occupation,Fathers Full Name and Occupation,Place of Birth,and many other simple questions,which only the rightful owner of the Birth Certificate would know, for certain.

Lets just wait and see if Amsterdam,can produce a copy of Abisits UK Birth Certificate,and more to the point,proof that Abhisit has taken up British Citizenship???

These days it seems anyone can get hold of anything quite easily online: http://yfrog.com/h3w3dp - anyone can apparently order anyone's birth certificate from this webpage: http://www.findmypast.co.uk/helpadvice/getting-started/ordering-certificates/

I find it quite worrying, really. Anyway, it's all irrelevant because the ICC still won't accept the case.

[nicknostitz]

And remember what they did on October 1976 as well. Oh, sorry about that, too long ago and the late k. Samak said only one unlucky person died then.

Now tell me, didn't the UDD start around 2007 a bit past the October 2006 coup. Wasn't that when 'real' violence by shirts other than Army and Police started. I find too many 'facts' in the replies which seem to be based on 'what everyone knows', or 'says', or a simple 'I don't tell you yet'. The truth is wonderful, but tends to escape all of us, obviously hiding behind facts

No, it didn't start then. In the coup era only one violent incident happened, and that was the Sisao Thewet clashes, in which the UDD was falsely accused of having attempted to storm the residence of general Prem. At the time the UDD had no guards. Here is a little story about it:

http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/08/12/revisiting-the-prem-compound-clashes/

The UDD ceased operating after the People Power Party won the elections, and reappeared after the PAD began their renewed protests. Initially the UDD had no guards, and only after the Makhawan clash they have slowly began improving their organization. The first proper guard units only appeared by late 2008, if i can recall.

[nicknostitz]

[

Was this before or after the grenades had gone off?

After.

[nicknostitz]

What do you mean you were with them, right there in the hotspot? Hard to take you seriously unless you can explain. sounds like you're amusing yourself with stories here.

I am a photo journalist. I have been at almost every hotspot of the political mess of the past 5 years here. Just put my name into google and see for yourself. This is my real name, by the way.

[rubl]

And remember what they did on October 1976 as well. Oh, sorry about that, too long ago and the late k. Samak said only one unlucky person died then.

Now tell me, didn't the UDD start around 2007 a bit past the October 2006 coup. Wasn't that when 'real' violence by shirts other than Army and Police started. I find too many 'facts' in the replies which seem to be based on 'what everyone knows', or 'says', or a simple 'I don't tell you yet'. The truth is wonderful, but tends to escape all of us, obviously hiding behind facts

No, it didn't start then. In the coup era only one violent incident happened, and that was the Sisao Thewet clashes, in which the UDD was falsely accused of having attempted to storm the residence of general Prem. At the time the UDD had no guards. Here is a little story about it:

http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2008/08/12/revisiting-the-prem-compound-clashes/

The UDD ceased operating after the People Power Party won the elections, and reappeared after the PAD began their renewed protests. Initially the UDD had no guards, and only after the Makhawan clash they have slowly began improving their organization. The first proper guard units only appeared by late 2008, if i can recall.

Still busy searching. Found this interesting piece from 'comrade Sung', May 2009.

http://www.socialistreview.org.uk/article.php?articlenumber=10816

Which reminds me to ask, when did Dr. weng start the 'schools' to educate the ignorant poor in social doctrine ? Surely he must have told them that you need a seemingly peaceful arm and a more violent one, with only leaders having a need-to-know. Well he should know, learned a lot in Vietnam in the 70s.

Anyway, don't worry, still digging for information on red-shirt / UDD / DAAD / unknowns guards. Will get back to you.

PS no offence, but humans being what they are just referring to your own articles starts to become a bit suspect.

Edited February 20, 2011 by rubl

[nicknostitz]

And remember what they did on October 1976 as well. Oh, sorry about that, too long ago and the late k. Samak said only one unlucky person died then.

Now tell me, didn't the UDD start around 2007 a bit past the October 2006 coup. Wasn't that when 'real' violence by shirts other than Army and Police started. I find too many 'facts' in the replies which seem to be based on 'what everyone knows', or 'says', or a simple 'I don't tell you yet'. The truth is wonderful, but tends to escape all of us, obviously hiding behind facts

No, it didn't start then. In the coup era only one violent incident happened, and that was the Sisao Thewet clashes, in which the UDD was falsely accused of having attempted to storm the residence of general Prem. At the time the UDD had no guards. Here is a little story about it:

http://asiapacific.a...mpound-clashes/

The UDD ceased operating after the People Power Party won the elections, and reappeared after the PAD began their renewed protests. Initially the UDD had no guards, and only after the Makhawan clash they have slowly began improving their organization. The first proper guard units only appeared by late 2008, if i can recall.

Still busy searching. Found this interesting piece from 'comrade Sung', May 2009.

http://www.socialist...clenumber=10816

Which reminds me to ask, when did Dr. weng start the 'schools' to educate the ignorant poor in social doctrine ? Surely he must have told them that you need a seemingly peaceful arm and a more violent one, with only leaders having a need-to-know. Well he should know, learned a lot in Vietnam in the 70s.

Anyway, don't worry, still digging for information on red-shirt / UDD / DAAD / unknowns guards. Will get back to you.

PS no offence, but humans being what they are just referring to your own articles starts to become a bit suspect.

Well, i would like to refer to other articles, but there were very few articles written about the early beginnings of the UDD. For a long time i was the only journalist that has been there at all events. The reason i began writing in mid 2008 on new mandala was exactly that - most of what i had seen while taking photos of these anti coup protests were never reported on, or, even worse, was falsely reported on.

Good luck finding much on the early UDD - as there is hardly anything available, and i may be your best and only source (other than two friends in Thai Rath, whose English is not sufficient, and who have been at many of the protests).

The brain behind these schools was, by the way, Tida Thawornset - Dr. Weng's wife, and present chair of the UDD. And no, both have forsworn violent strategies, especially due to their experience in the jungle and the mistakes the CPT made then.

[Insight]

Was this before or after the grenades had gone off?

After.

So it pretty much pales in comparison to red shirt justice whereby you get grenades fired at you (followed with a celebration upon confirmed fatalities) should you shout abuse towards a red shirt, IMO.