Thai Reds Mass In Bangkok To Mark Anniversary Of Protest

[rubl]

I'm glad to see that you support my viewpoint, namely that Thaksin is used as a threat to frighten the Yellow elite, it certainly works with you

Events have moved on, Thaksin is in the past, do you honestly think the present Red leaders if they win will calmly hand over power back to Thaksin?

If you think that you don't understand Thais, this is a wolf pack environment, former pack leaders never make a comeback.

Anyone with a modicum of brains know he cannot come back, but it is useful to keep the threat hanging in the air, it keeps the Democrats off balance. Makes them react even more stupidly than they would do otherwise.

Suddenly you make me feel very sorry for k. Thaksin. Used by the leaders of the UDD faction of red-shirts. Someone should also tell the PTP leaders that they are being had by those devils of UDD leaders. Shame on them

[jdinasia]

I'm glad to see that you support my viewpoint, namely that Thaksin is used as a threat to frighten the Yellow elite, it certainly works with you

Events have moved on, Thaksin is in the past, do you honestly think the present Red leaders if they win will calmly hand over power back to Thaksin?

If you think that you don't understand Thais, this is a wolf pack environment, former pack leaders never make a comeback.

Anyone with a modicum of brains know he cannot come back, but it is useful to keep the threat hanging in the air, it keeps the Democrats off balance. Makes them react even more stupidly than they would do otherwise.

So as to not alter someone else's post ... let me add this again .....

Anyone with a modicum of brains know he cannot come back,

and since a large percentage of the UDD/Redshirts in fact DO believe they will get Thaksin back (including some board members ...) what exactly are you saying about the intelligence of the average member of this "grass-roots" movement?

To me it is obvious that Thaksin can't be allowed to return on many different levels, but you completely miss out on the basic client/patron aspect of Thai politics including the redshirt/UDD leadership. They OWE Thaksin and they'd take him back if they could. The masses would defect if they didn't ... and without Thaksin they (red leaders) have nothing to offer. It is a "cult of personality" that is using the poor as a tool.

You still haven't answered the implied question regarding you ever being neutral and why you changed ... since your first posts on TVF were pro-red and skipped right over their violent history.

[473geo]

There appears to be a simple solution here

If both parties are run by elites........as frequently inferred on this forum.......

If the voters then can only make a decision by relating their choice to the party perceived to be improving their situation

The requirement is the incubent government make enough changes and put in the relevant effort to give confidence to the voters that the government is the party of choice proven by their actions and results..........

Or of course they risk getting voted out............

Now that wasn't so difficult......no mud slinging.....no devisive critique......just simple logic

My understanding is.......... this is all both parties are striving to achieve.......a common aim.......

Edited March 13, 2011 by 473geo

[Emptyset]

Yawn.

So what was Thaksin's request for the reds to vote for him so he could win "by a landslide" all about last night?

I don't see how Thaksin's speech makes Anterian wrong.

[Emptyset]

The Dems have made significant inroads into land reform, healthcare etc. The Dems are supported by rural farmers from many areas of the country (particularly the South.) That very fact makes any claim of this being about the poor vs the rich absolutely silly.

When the Reds dump Thaksin and swear off violence as a means to attaining any goal THEN they will find more support, until then they remain tools of the elite.

Any evidence for this? Dems are supported by southern farmers, yes, but those farmers are a lot richer than northern farmers. Provinces that support the Democrats have a per capita income of 221,000 baht per year. Provinces supporting PT only 92,000 per year. Quite a big difference, here you can see that southern provinces are much richer than northern and north-eastern provinces:

http://asiancorrespondent.com/33544/just-a-battle-of-elites/

Incidentally, Forum of the Poor today issued a statement that says they definitely won't be voting Democrat. Democrats have done a lot of talking but nothing has happened, so the Democrats are still the "party that's ready to betray the poor", in their opinion.

[Emptyset]

'To many members the Reds have no redeeming features, they are simply brainless hooligans paid for by Thaksin''

i agree

''they want their vote to have meaning, ''

yet they are happy to sell it to the highest bidder

''being used and manipulated''

to do what exactly?

''not be thwarted every time by the army''

if they don't want that then do not break the law, let the elected government get on with their job

McCargo's assessment here seems about right:

The Red Shirts were widely depicted in the media as ‘poor farmers’ animated by poverty and deprivation, and lacking formal education; they were also portrayed, especially in the Bangkok press, as a ‘mob for hire’ who received financial incentives to take part in demonstrations.

Many Red Shirt activists are lower middle class, self-employed traders who were economically and politically empowered during the Thaksin period (2001-06), but have since seen their social standing and their livelihoods threatened by new government policies and priorities. Most of them did not need to be paid to take part in the anti-government demonstrations, though they were often mobilized and organized by political networks in their home provinces.

http://asiancorrespondent.com/50155/thailand-one-year-later-no-compromise-in-sight/

Although obviously some really are poor farmers, and some are fairly hi-so. Anyway, there are multiple angles you could take, you can't just emphasis the intra-elite struggle and you can't just say that the red shirts are a bunch of disenfranchised farmers fighting the elite etc. More complex than either of those simplistic narratives. Imo it's possible to discuss both angles, the elite struggle, and the people's struggle, but most people seem to feel the need to choose one.

[Buchholz]

If the Billions and Billions of baht that were temporarily frozen on hundreds of of bank accounts belonging to dozens of people suspected of supporting the Red Shirts several months back (including at least a half dozen amongst the Shinawatra/Damapong Empire) is any indication, there's quite a few Reds that are "fairly hi-so."

[Emptyset]

If the Billions and Billions of baht that were temporarily frozen on hundreds of of bank accounts belonging to dozens of people suspected of supporting the Red Shirts several months back (including at least a half dozen amongst the Shinawatra/Damapong Empire) is any indication, there's quite a few Reds that are "fairly hi-so."

Indeed... I actually meant among the ordinary supporters though, but "fairly hi-so" is obviously an understatement for some backers.

[philw]

Quite a good turnout with the police estimating 30,000 so probably somewhat more than that. If they can still rally that many numbers in an area miles away from their heartland the upcoming election is going to be a tight one.

You really believe 30,000 votes out of 65 million people will make it a tight election? LMAO

Spend some time in Isaan where you'll see plenty of red flags, posters of Taksin, and other indications that they command a great deal of popular support amonst ordinary people. Bangkok does not Thailand make, as has been shown before.

if you did spend some time there and decided to exercise your democratic rights the reds speak so passionately about and hang a poster in your window in support of the yellows or the democrats or any of the opposition parties

what do you think would happen to you?:

a). you would be congratulated by the local community as being a strong minded, free thinking individual?

. you would be viewed as a rather eccentric person who's opinion is not worth consideration anyway

c). you would be invited to change your views to the local majority or suffer the consequences

d). you would be beaten within an inch of your life

e). killed by the red thugs

How do you know any of these suppositions ??

Got any evidence to support your prejudices ?

[rubl]

McCargo's assessment here seems about right:

"The Red Shirts were widely depicted in the media as 'poor farmers' animated by poverty and deprivation, and lacking formal education; they were also portrayed, especially in the Bangkok press, as a 'mob for hire' who received financial incentives to take part in demonstrations.

Many Red Shirt activists are lower middle class, self-employed traders who were economically and politically empowered during the Thaksin period (2001-06), but have since seen their social standing and their livelihoods threatened by new government policies and priorities. Most of them did not need to be paid to take part in the anti-government demonstrations, though they were often mobilized and organized by political networks in their home provinces."

http://asiancorrespondent.com/50155/thailand-one-year-later-no-compromise-in-sight/

From the same article dated 2011-03-12 I would have quoted:

"“Last year, more than 90 people were killed and hundreds wounded when pro-Thaksin demonstrators clashed with security forces. The vast majority of them were demonstrators—but among the fatalities were also soldiers and policemen, shot by black-clad men armed with automatic rifles and grenade launchers. While usually referred to as an ‘extreme’ or ‘militant’ faction of the pro-Thaksin camp, they were, in fact, security guards for the so-called Red Shirts. I saw them myself and talked to them before the mayhem began. And despite all talk about the movement having moved ‘beyond Thaksin,’ they’re still wearing T-shirts with a picture of Thaksin, or even Thaksin masks.

“Not a major gathering is held without a video-linked address to the demonstrators by Thaksin, now exile in Dubai. And when Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva in early May last year promised to hold elections ‘by November,’ the local Red Shirt leaders first agreed. But instead of declaring victory (an election was their main demand) and dispersing, they suddenly changed their minds—after a phone call from Thaksin, Western diplomats assert. He urged them to fight on, and a bloody confrontation ensued."

[philw]

If the Billions and Billions of baht that were temporarily frozen on hundreds of of bank accounts belonging to dozens of people suspected of supporting the Red Shirts several months back (including at least a half dozen amongst the Shinawatra/Damapong Empire) is any indication, there's quite a few Reds that are "fairly hi-so."

The silence from the Gov't on this issue, after the initial announcement, is interesting.

Got any comment on the silence, lack of result ??

Numerous people and companies named as sponsors of terrorism but yet seemingly no further action.

Why would that be ?

[rubl]

if you did spend some time there and decided to exercise your democratic rights the reds speak so passionately about and hang a poster in your window in support of the yellows or the democrats or any of the opposition parties

what do you think would happen to you?:

a). you would be congratulated by the local community as being a strong minded, free thinking individual?

. you would be viewed as a rather eccentric person who's opinion is not worth consideration anyway

c). you would be invited to change your views to the local majority or suffer the consequences

d). you would be beaten within an inch of your life

e). killed by the red thugs

How do you know any of these suppositions ??

Got any evidence to support your prejudices ?

Which one is a prejudice, a) or e) ?

[rubl]

If the Billions and Billions of baht that were temporarily frozen on hundreds of of bank accounts belonging to dozens of people suspected of supporting the Red Shirts several months back (including at least a half dozen amongst the Shinawatra/Damapong Empire) is any indication, there's quite a few Reds that are "fairly hi-so."

The silence from the Gov't on this issue, after the initial announcement, is interesting.

Got any comment on the silence, lack of result ??

Numerous people and companies named as sponsors of terrorism but yet seemingly no further action.

Why would that be ?

Now there's a good question! Lots of accounts were de-frozen, including some Shinawatra accounts, but the others? Unless the information is part of the 'data gathering' for a criminal case being prepared. Like money flow to 'red-shirt guards, UDD leaders, other nice people'

[philw]

if you did spend some time there and decided to exercise your democratic rights the reds speak so passionately about and hang a poster in your window in support of the yellows or the democrats or any of the opposition parties

what do you think would happen to you?:

a). you would be congratulated by the local community as being a strong minded, free thinking individual?

. you would be viewed as a rather eccentric person who's opinion is not worth consideration anyway

c). you would be invited to change your views to the local majority or suffer the consequences

d). you would be beaten within an inch of your life

e). killed by the red thugs

How do you know any of these suppositions ??

Got any evidence to support your prejudices ?

Which one is a prejudice, a) or e) ?

Laughable.

Try not to bait.

[jdinasia]

Emptyset --- regarding the per-capita income of rural farmers. I don't see anywhere in your chart that indicates it is different in the N or S ... it talks about ALL incomes in a province. That would include everything from fishing, mining, etc in the South. Yes the South has more income than the North East ... that doesn't mean that there is as large of a disparity in the incomes of farmers as you suggest.

You also indicate that there are the ultra-rich, The middle-classes, The newly emerging middle classes, and the dirt-poor amongst the reds. You seem to ascribe simple patronage or enlightened self-interest to these groups but all but the poor are looking for Thaksin to change the balance of power. The dirt-poor are doing the same but out of patronage and probably due to the increased debt-load they took on during the free-money Thaksin era. Nothing you wrote suggested anything other than a Thaksin issue.

Does McCrago suggest how these 'reds with money" are actually affected by government policy or does he just drop it off there? If he doesn't say what the policies are then how are we to assume that it is anything other than absolute patronage?

[rubl]

if you did spend some time there and decided to exercise your democratic rights the reds speak so passionately about and hang a poster in your window in support of the yellows or the democrats or any of the opposition parties

what do you think would happen to you?:

a). you would be congratulated by the local community as being a strong minded, free thinking individual?

. you would be viewed as a rather eccentric person who's opinion is not worth consideration anyway

c). you would be invited to change your views to the local majority or suffer the consequences

d). you would be beaten within an inch of your life

e). killed by the red thugs

How do you know any of these suppositions ??

Got any evidence to support your prejudices ?

Which one is a prejudice, a) or e) ?

Laughable.

Try not to bait.

Not baiting, just wondering. It was you who described the options as prejudice. So you should be able to tell which one and why. Unless you are baiting of course

Edited March 13, 2011 by rubl

[Insight]

Yawn.

So what was Thaksin's request for the reds to vote for him so he could win "by a landslide" all about last night?

I don't see how Thaksin's speech makes Anterian wrong.

How does voting to somebody who substantially increased his personal wealth during his last stay in office, has been judged as corrupt in a court of law and is arguably highly regarded as "elite" himself and will no doubt ensure his next tenure in office will help preserve this elite status - help in removing the corrupt and immoral "elite"?

This is a textbook power struggle and nothing more. Anybody who believes any of the people battling right now are seriously concerned about the needs of the poor has succumbed to the PR being distributed. Understandable given how much we can assume is being spent on it.

[timekeeper]

Spend some time in Isaan where you'll see plenty of red flags, posters of Taksin, and other indications that they command a great deal of popular support amonst ordinary people. Bangkok does not Thailand make, as has been shown before.

if you did spend some time there and decided to exercise your democratic rights the reds speak so passionately about and hang a poster in your window in support of the yellows or the democrats or any of the opposition parties

what do you think would happen to you?:

a). you would be congratulated by the local community as being a strong minded, free thinking individual?

. you would be viewed as a rather eccentric person who's opinion is not worth consideration anyway

c). you would be invited to change your views to the local majority or suffer the consequences

d). you would be beaten within an inch of your life

e). killed by the red thugs

How do you know any of these suppositions ??

Got any evidence to support your prejudices ?

just speculating, i am allowed to do that on forums........

why don't you put a Abhisit democrat promo picture in your window and see what happens?

i know i could put up an opposition poster in an election year in the UK and nothing would happen to me or my house

my political views would be respected

can you honestly tell me you could do the same in a red center or red village?

Edited March 13, 2011 by timekeeper

[anterian]

I'm glad to see that you support my viewpoint, namely that Thaksin is used as a threat to frighten the Yellow elite, it certainly works with you

Events have moved on, Thaksin is in the past, do you honestly think the present Red leaders if they win will calmly hand over power back to Thaksin?

If you think that you don't understand Thais, this is a wolf pack environment, former pack leaders never make a comeback.

Anyone with a modicum of brains know he cannot come back, but it is useful to keep the threat hanging in the air, it keeps the Democrats off balance. Makes them react even more stupidly than they would do otherwise.

So as to not alter someone else's post ... let me add this again .....

Anyone with a modicum of brains know he cannot come back,

and since a large percentage of the UDD/Redshirts in fact DO believe they will get Thaksin back (including some board members ...) what exactly are you saying about the intelligence of the average member of this "grass-roots" movement?

To me it is obvious that Thaksin can't be allowed to return on many different levels, but you completely miss out on the basic client/patron aspect of Thai politics including the redshirt/UDD leadership. They OWE Thaksin and they'd take him back if they could. The masses would defect if they didn't ... and without Thaksin they (red leaders) have nothing to offer. It is a "cult of personality" that is using the poor as a tool.

You still haven't answered the implied question regarding you ever being neutral and why you changed ... since your first posts on TVF were pro-red and skipped right over their violent history.

Some people seem to have nothing better to do than bandy words on TVF, well I have a life outside of this forum, so at the risk of boring many I will explain where I am coming from. I participated in the original Yellow rallies when Thaksin was in power, I felt he abused his position. I was not so happy about the coup, I felt that was the wrong solution. I became increasingly unhappy with the way Samak was removed and then Somchai, plus the banning of the 111 MPs, it was becoming clear that the elite were showing their hand. I was dissillusions by the PAD occupation of government house and then the airport,. I was angered by the distorted media reports and the false forensic analyses. The coverage of the Red and Yellow protests was clearly biased, the clamp down and banning of Red radio and TV stations was a disgrace. Thus I ceased to be a yellow supporter.

Am I a Red supporter, well I sympathise with their grass roots problems, I live in a poor village and see it on a daily basis, I don't always agree with their methods, but they are the actions of people with nothing to lose. Abhisit is clearly out of touch with the rural poor, he was appointed by due democratic process but not by democratic mandate, his desperate desire to hang on at all costs I find abhorrent, he is a wimp with a smarmy smile.

The Reds may not be the answer to Thailands problems, but I would like to see them have a fair try without the army interfering. The Dems have solved nothing, they are just papering over the cracks. So I dislike the Dems and the PAD, I loath Newin as a two faced turncoat, but am I a Red supporter, well you tell me

[Insight]

...his desperate desire to hang on at all costs I find abhorrent, he is a wimp with a smarmy smile.

If he's that "desperate" surely *insisting* on elections is a major gamble? Especially considering Thaksin himself used the word "landslide" when describing his desired victory?

[jdinasia]

To Hanuman :

So as not to alter your post .. I have included 2 select quotes from it ..... I did not delete anything in the middle of them ... just pointing out your "whiter than white Western influenced socio-political ideals ... seem to go to both sides.

That's why it's so galling to have all the smirkers constantly shoving their 'holier than thou' whiter-than-white Western influenced socio-political ideals in the faces of people who may love those ideals just as much as they do, but unlike them realize it's like standing in the middle of a field and whining about the color of grass.

You offer 'what they can do for the country' as the antithesis for more facetious reasons behind choosing a party to back (not that most of us can - in the real/practical sense - back any of these parties at all). I wouldn't leave out the possibility of people voting or forwarding the cause of other parties out of nothing at all apart from individual self interest. That's how most people vote in the West, so probably here too.

The truth is, if I went strictly with my whiter than white Western influenced socio-political ideals ----- I would be crying about a coup replacing a democracy. (That didn't happen, but I would be thinking it did instead of looking at the fact that a coup replaced an extra-constitutional caretaker government, and that only a minority of the population said much about it. That minority was loyal to the extra-constitutional care-taker government due to money politics at every level. (excluding a few academics that spoke out based upon Western socio-political ideals...). If I were thinking like you suggest I would be thinking 'Democracy at any cost" instead of looking at how the Thaksin era form of kleptocracy actually tore down all the checks and balances required by a democracy to function!

In short --- if I were a GOP flag waving yank (I am a yank!) I'd be taking up the cause of the reds for sheer Democratic reasons, If I were a Donkey-flag waving yank that didn't do any research I would be taking up the red cause based upon social inequities. Instead, I looked at Thailand and the system in place here at the time of the coup, at the time of the post coup junta that kept its promise to hold free elections, and at the time after the coup when the pre-coup power groups kept getting caught breaking down any form of democracy ... and made my own decision.

[philw]

Which one is a prejudice, a) or e) ?

Laughable.

Try not to bait.

Not baiting, just wondering. It was you who described the options as prejudice. So you should be able to tell which one and why. Unless you are baiting of course

Lets us let timekeeper respond.

Might be :-

[rubl]

Which one is a prejudice, a) or e) ?

Laughable.

Try not to bait.

Not baiting, just wondering. It was you who described the options as prejudice. So you should be able to tell which one and why. Unless you are baiting of course

Lets us let timekeeper respond.

Might be :-

He did: "just speculating, i am allowed to do that on forums........"

[rubl]

...his desperate desire to hang on at all costs I find abhorrent, he is a wimp with a smarmy smile.

If he's that "desperate" surely *insisting* on elections is a major gamble? Especially considering Thaksin himself used the word "landslide" when describing his desired victory?

Maybe dear member anterian refers to the last time PM Abhisit was politely asked by protesters if an early election could be made possible and he said "YES, what about November 2010?"

[jdinasia]

Anterian, good on you for making a claim to have been at one time a PAD supporter. That you managed to get some facts wrong is excusable. (Such as Samak, he could have been PM the next day. Thaksin chose his brother-in-law instead. Somchai was banned as were all party execs for a party exec being caught on film making a pay-off.)

But really --- your claims make no sense in light of your original post on this topic that stated it was because of other foreigners on TVF that you changed your stance. No change of stance is reflected in the time you have been posting on here, but that is explained by your claims above.

As to your claim that (paraphrased) only an idiot would think Thaksin is coming back, and the basic fact that most reds do think he is coming back .... well ... enough said

Your statements about Abhisit (who offered elections BEFORE the reds started tossing petrol bombs on April 9th 2010 -- said election would have taken place already) being desperate to hold on to power .. it just doesn't match reality.

Your statements that appear to absolve the reds for their years of violence (pre-dating the PAD occupation of government house in 2008 by many many months), well ... that is imho a very sad thing. The first red riot took place in 2007 at the home of the head of the Privy Council. If you want cause and affect for escalating violence perhaps you should start there

[hanuman1]

To Hanuman :

So as not to alter your post .. I have included 2 select quotes from it ..... I did not delete anything in the middle of them ... just pointing out your "whiter than white Western influenced socio-political ideals ... seem to go to both sides.

That's why it's so galling to have all the smirkers constantly shoving their 'holier than thou' whiter-than-white Western influenced socio-political ideals in the faces of people who may love those ideals just as much as they do, but unlike them realize it's like standing in the middle of a field and whining about the color of grass.

You offer 'what they can do for the country' as the antithesis for more facetious reasons behind choosing a party to back (not that most of us can - in the real/practical sense - back any of these parties at all). I wouldn't leave out the possibility of people voting or forwarding the cause of other parties out of nothing at all apart from individual self interest. That's how most people vote in the West, so probably here too.

The truth is, if I went strictly with my whiter than white Western influenced socio-political ideals ----- I would be crying about a coup replacing a democracy. (That didn't happen, but I would be thinking it did instead of looking at the fact that a coup replaced an extra-constitutional caretaker government, and that only a minority of the population said much about it. That minority was loyal to the extra-constitutional care-taker government due to money politics at every level. (excluding a few academics that spoke out based upon Western socio-political ideals...). If I were thinking like you suggest I would be thinking 'Democracy at any cost" instead of looking at how the Thaksin era form of kleptocracy actually tore down all the checks and balances required by a democracy to function!

In short --- if I were a GOP flag waving yank (I am a yank!) I'd be taking up the cause of the reds for sheer Democratic reasons, If I were a Donkey-flag waving yank that didn't do any research I would be taking up the red cause based upon social inequities. Instead, I looked at Thailand and the system in place here at the time of the coup, at the time of the post coup junta that kept its promise to hold free elections, and at the time after the coup when the pre-coup power groups kept getting caught breaking down any form of democracy ... and made my own decision.

fantastic!

[tw25rw]

I used to be neutral in the Red versus Yellow debate, both have valid arguments. Now I am so bored with the outpourings of snide anti Red comments that I want to see the Reds win, just to wipe the smirk of so many members faces.

The debate isn't red v yellow. It is yellow v majority of normal people v red. The yellows are fairly irrelevant now that there is an anti Thaksin govt. Judging by the posts in this forum, I would say the degree of sanity and literacy is lower amongst those backing the reds. I'm not well positioned to judge the Thais on those points.

[ballpoint]

Some people seem to have nothing better to do than bandy words on TVF, well I have a life outside of this forum, so at the risk of boring many I will explain where I am coming from. I participated in the original Yellow rallies when Thaksin was in power, I felt he abused his position. I was not so happy about the coup, I felt that was the wrong solution. I became increasingly unhappy with the way Samak was removed and then Somchai, plus the banning of the 111 MPs, it was becoming clear that the elite were showing their hand. I was dissillusions by the PAD occupation of government house and then the airport,. I was angered by the distorted media reports and the false forensic analyses. The coverage of the Red and Yellow protests was clearly biased, the clamp down and banning of Red radio and TV stations was a disgrace. Thus I ceased to be a yellow supporter.

Am I a Red supporter, well I sympathise with their grass roots problems, I live in a poor village and see it on a daily basis, I don't always agree with their methods, but they are the actions of people with nothing to lose. Abhisit is clearly out of touch with the rural poor, he was appointed by due democratic process but not by democratic mandate, his desperate desire to hang on at all costs I find abhorrent, he is a wimp with a smarmy smile.

The Reds may not be the answer to Thailands problems, but I would like to see them have a fair try without the army interfering. The Dems have solved nothing, they are just papering over the cracks. So I dislike the Dems and the PAD, I loath Newin as a two faced turncoat, but am I a Red supporter, well you tell me

You are a red supporter. Your arguments, like so many of your fellows, are based on an entirely false premise. After the 1991 coup, who was firmly on the army's side, wanting to install Suchinda as PM? Chavalit, Chalerm, et al, the people who became the NAP, the party that was bought out by Thaksin, lock, stock and barrel of rotten apples. In the years between the 1992 and 2001 elections, who controlled most of Isaan, keeping the people in the place that you claim to want to see rise out of? The rotten dynasties and their proxies, many of them members of that same NAP, that was bought out by Thaksin. When Thaksin wanted to form a new political party, did he recruit a bunch of fresh people, with new ideas and ideals? No, he bought, on mass, the party that won the most votes in the previous elections - the NAP, the patron of the rice barons, upcountry thugs and loan sharks. The party that even then used Chavalit's Taharn Praharn to do much of its dirty work and intimidation, the same Taharn Praharn that has been linked with the black shirts. And we get people, clueless about recent Thai history, no matter how many books they claim to have read about it, come here trying to tell us that the poor of Isaan are clamouring to kick out the present government in order to bring back the same old crooks, thieves, murderers and robber barons that are responsible for them being where they are today? I agree with you on Newin, he being one of that afore mentioned group, which is why, if the poor are really serious about political change, and not just in it for a quick buck at election time, and another at a protest of any colour, they would resoundingly express their disatisfaction with any one who has been, or has been associated with, an Isaan MP in the past. And any real political activist would be encouraging them to do just that.

[rubl]

I used to be neutral in the Red versus Yellow debate, both have valid arguments. Now I am so bored with the outpourings of snide anti Red comments that I want to see the Reds win, just to wipe the smirk of so many members faces.

The debate isn't red v yellow. It is yellow v majority of normal people v red. The yellows are fairly irrelevant now that there is an anti Thaksin govt. Judging by the posts in this forum, I would say the degree of sanity and literacy is lower amongst those backing the reds. I'm not well positioned to judge the Thais on those points.

As a known Anti-Red (at least as some will have it) I can tell you I do not doubt their literacy nor their intelligence, only their reasoning. Most likely as they do mine. This has no real relevance with sanity, only with opinion

[ballpoint]

Any evidence for this? Dems are supported by southern farmers, yes, but those farmers are a lot richer than northern farmers. Provinces that support the Democrats have a per capita income of 221,000 baht per year. Provinces supporting PT only 92,000 per year. Quite a big difference, here you can see that southern provinces are much richer than northern and north-eastern provinces:

So, you're telling us that the South, the stronghold of the Democrats, has prospered, while the North and Northeast, the stronghold of the NAP/CTP/TRT/PPP/PTP, have been kept in poverty?