Two Swedes Electrocuted In Krabi

[siamiam]

The fact you are having to dig so deep to find cases of people being electrocuted while peeing and the results only turn up possible cases with extremely high wattage is in play should tell you something. First of all when extremely high power is involved the path of electricity will arc through the air. Think of lightning not needing a wire or stream of water to reach the ground.

By the way ... here is the video of actually trying to conduct electricity from a stream of urine ..

You may also want to checkout this link to see the person mentioned in your new link is an urban myth .

Dig deep? I found that item on the first or second page that came up when I googled the subject. However, I would expect that these kind of cases are not a frequent occurrence. After all, how many people urinate on exposed high power lines / rails?

I'm not looking to establish anything other than it can happen and that it is not an impossibility.

Regarding a shower head producing water in droplet form, I want to say the following:

The vast majority of the shower heads in my Thailand hotel rooms produce a solid stream of water, not water droplets as you most often find in the showers of the US. Now, this solid stream of water in my Thai showers are most often made up of several individual streams, but they are all solid just the same. Then there are the frequent showers where the head is so clogged with 'water deposits' that in order to have a shower one must unscrew the head and set it aside. Often this is very easy to do, because that is what everyone who has used the particular room has been doing. Then when we check out, we screw the shower head back on. In these cases, the shower produces one solid stream of water. OK, now you know I am a 150-275 baht/room kind of guy.

My point of all this was only to say that IF a person can be electrocuted by urinating on a high power source, and IF a similar powerful electricity were to find its way into a residential home, then it can not be ruled out that this electricity might find a path in the stream of water from a shower head. Very unlikely? Sure it is.

Regarding the credibility of the person that you mentioned above, I have no idea. Perhaps they are on the same level of mythbusters? The links at the bottom of their page for the individual cases, seemed to go to reliable sources. But, then again the link to the first case I cited was for MSNBC, which is considered a reputable news company.

[siamiam]

To put the conductivity of water into perspective - Water's conductivity falls between the conductivity of a diamond and the conductivity of glass. This includes sea water, drinking water and de-ionized water.

http://en.wikipedia....nd_conductivity

I am reading the data on the above mentioned Wiki website differently, in regards to the electrical resistivity of water, glass, and diamond carbon. While I don't find fault with the Wiki site cited here, be careful with the various Wikis out there, as I have found on occasion that they contain 'information' I know to be false. Here is an excerpt from that site:

"The conductivity of a solution of water is highly dependent on its concentration of dissolved salts, and other chemical species that ionize in the solution."

Here is a URL for a website with information on how people get electrocuted:

http://www.bigsiteof...-electric-shock

Here is an excerpt from that site:

"For example, dry skin offers an electrical resistance of 100,000 ohms. Yet wet skin reduces this to 400 ohms, only double the resistance of salty water. So being soaked to the skin leaves us more vulnerable to harm."

I fully agree with the information you post with the exception of:

While I don't find fault with the Wiki site cited here, be careful with the various Wikis out there, as I have found on occasion that they contain 'information' I know to be false. Here is an excerpt from that site:

"The conductivity of a solution of water is highly dependent on its concentration of dissolved salts, and other chemical species that ionize in the solution."

The appearance of your presentation makes that statement appear false which is not the case although hopefully that was not what you were trying to imply.

I would like to clarify some of the reasoning behind the topics discussed on my post.

I included the comment on the conductivity of water to try and demonstrates that it is very unlikely you will get zapped by the shower spray that so many seemed concerned with.

I realize the increased dangers of a wet human coming into contact with a voltage differential over that of a dry human as this is the reason for the whole topic about electrical dangers in the shower. Water definitely increases the risk of electrocution in an unsafe environment but generally by direct contact with a primary conductor and not the water alone.

I then tried to point out the conditions that make a particular shower area unsafe. Being a wet human in a safe shower environment is "safe". Being a wet human in an unsafe electrical environment can lead to your death. For that matter being a dry human in an unsafe electrical environment can lead to your death as well.

An interesting slightly off topic side note is that being a wet sweaty person has its benefits. Sweat has saved numerous lives from electrocution when they have been unfortunate enough to get struck by lightning. The salty sweat conducts the lightning around the person and not through them thus reducing the severity of the strike on their body.

Cheers all - shower safe and avoid getting hit by lightening!

Edit - I added the lightening thing because our village really got zapped last night by the biggest lightning storm I have seen in 3 years!

I don’t see any errors on this Wiki site. I can’t say there aren’t any, only that I haven’t seen any.

Perhaps I didn’t word my previous post as well as I should have done.

I made the Wiki quote from this site in my previous post because I feel that it says the same thing I have said all along, regarding the conductivity of water.

I agree that it is very unlikely that electricity in a residential electrocution would find a path in the stream of water from a shower head. Cheers

[simon43]

Maybe we move in different circles,The tourist police have been outside the place all day...

Maybe I am too dam_n busy with my own hotels to have time to gawk at someone else's misfortune..

Glad to see that the hotel is named by a reputable source.

Simon

[Nisa]

My point of all this was only to say that IF a person can be electrocuted by urinating on a high power source, and IF a similar powerful electricity were to find its way into a residential home, then it can not be ruled out that this electricity might find a path in the stream of water from a shower head. Very unlikely? Sure it is.

If you do some further checking you will see this (peeing) is considered an urban legend because the odds are so astronomically low and to my knowledge there has never been a coroner to rule that to be the cause of death ... but would imagine in the history of the electronic age it must have happened at some point given the right circumstances.

Below is a semi high speed picture of water coming out of a shower. With your naked eye you wouldn't be able to see how quickly the water separates and it would appear to be a continuous stream until possibly much further out when the water drops are much further apart. The only way for electricity to travel through the water (not arcing through the air) is before the water starts to break up.

But under the right circumstances a stream of water (peeing or shower) can facilitate arcing (charge flowing through the air like lighting) from the power source to reach the body.

All this is kind of a moot point as we always want to treat a stream of water as if it was a conductive wire because as you say .. it isn't impossible but my point was that it is extremely unlikely this couple (or others) have died from the shower's water stream.

Edited April 5, 2011 by Nisa

[BuckarooBanzai]

There was, according to the news, an electric heated hot water tank below the roof, serving 2 bathrooms in the bungalow.

The standard thai-style in-wall plumbing for hot water, is by galvanized steel pipes down to the metal faucets also built into the wall, that we can se in the pictures.

What we also can see in one photo is a a glimpse of a metal shower hose.

If there was a conduct from the electric wiring into the heater tank, that metal spun hose will accordingly carry leathal voltages and current through the steel tubes!!

The wet tile floor with widespread rebars or metal mesh in the always wet concrete, is a perfect ground return path for the current.

The outlets are normally of plastic in Thailand and are probably not involved here.

This scenario also complies with the reported burns injuries.

So, if the hot water tank was properly grounded, this tragic accident would never have happend!! Only a blown fuse or some burned wires....

/JohanB, electronic engineer, Sweden

Agree fully with your appraisal although I think perhaps the drain, the galvanized steel pipes down to the metal faucets, or some other metal contact was more likely the path to ground over the cement floor and re-rod but hopefully we will find out. The burns indicate an extremely conductive path. I tried to point out the dangers of a conductivity sheathed shower hose back in post No. 34 and hopefully any one who may have these on their shower units will have changed them already.

Just wanted to point out that this scenario also indicates the units ground fault interrupter "safety circuit" also failed and demonstrates the potential benefits of adding an additional gfi circuit breaker in line with the water heater as extra security. It's cheap and I have never really trusted the ones in the heater units - but that's only my opinion.

[Nisa]

I got a degree in electronics (computer) a long time ago which I never really used but have retained some knowledge of electronic principles. However, I know little about home construction when it comes to wiring or materials. Considering there was torrential rains and flooding in the area at the time this incident happened ... do either of you see any possibility how this may have played a role?

One reason I ask is the comment that nothing like this has happened there before (at least in the 8-years the manager has been there). Although I am a bit skeptical of the owners claim of somebody taking a shower at the same time in the adjoining room with the shared water heater, I tend to believe this being the first incident of an electrocution. Would it be logical to assume something could have failed that worked in the previous 8-years?

I guess i am also asking you to speculate on why now and not before this.

Edited April 6, 2011 by Nisa

[BuckarooBanzai]

I got a degree in electronics (computer) a long time ago which I never really used but have retained some knowledge of electronic principles. However, I know little about home construction when it comes to wiring or materials. Considering there was torrential rains and flooding in the area at the time this incident happened ... do either of you see any possibility how this may have played a role?

One reason I ask is the comment that nothing like this has happened there before (at least in the 8-years the manager has been there). Although I am a bit skeptical of the owners claim of somebody taking a shower at the same time in the adjoining room with the shared water heater, I tend to believe this being the first incident of an electrocution. Would it be logical to assume something could have failed that worked in the previous 8-years?

I guess i am also asking you to speculate on why now and not before this.

Certainly there may be a connection but until it is properly investigated (If) it is only possibly related - wind on the wiring which was apparently located in the roof - rats finding a dry place to stay during the rains eating the electric cable - ground water backing up in the drain creating a continuous path to ground etc. Let's hope the authorities do a good job this time around and come up with some real answers!

[dunkin2012]

The Big question is "Will there be a Fair Autopsy and will the facts come out?" This is surely what the Swedish authorities and the families of the victims need to be sure of.

If I was either of those I would want an independent autopsy and is the hotel a crime scene now?

This is Thailand .

Ask Singapore.............to do the autopsy....then....

if he doesn't trust the Swede....

and Sweden is far...too..

So he can't deny it..... That's what I really think...the solution.

[Yelly]

And so what about one of these types? Does this appear safe?

[siamiam]

.. it isn't impossible but my point was that it is extremely unlikely this couple (or others) have died from the shower's water stream.

Agreed. With two bodies in the shower at the same time, quite possibly in an amorous state, the chances are they touched whatever caused their electrocution.

[Crossy]

And so what about one of these types? Does this appear safe?

I'd like to see it outside the shower area (ours is under the sink) but it looks a reasonable installation and it's outside the main splash zone.

You need to investigate under the cover (power off) and look for a ground wire (normally green) as well as the black and white supply wires, trace back to the breaker that controls it, is an RCD or Safe-T-Cut installed? If you have a ground and an RCD it's as safe as it will ever be.

[somtampet]

I can not believe that they were so young only 23 and 25 years. How us to avoid the similar situation? What we have to do before to take a shower?

Age has nothing to do with it,if they were 50 would it be acceptable.

RIP,very sad

[BuckarooBanzai]

And so what about one of these types? Does this appear safe?

Because you appear to have rubber/plastic hoses connecting your hot water heater to the plumbing you should be fine. If one has internal plumbing like you have they should be very careful that it is set up with the rubber/plastic hose connectors and not the type of hose you have connected to your shower head. Otherwise the whole tub/shower can become live.

The hose you have connected to your spray unit is fine the way you have it installed but if it were connected directly to the hot water heater it should be replaced ASAP.

Edit:

Looking more closely at your set up it appears your hot water heater outlet is under pressure which unless your unit is designed for it is most often wrong. For most units the outflow should be unrestricted. This may be something you want to get checked as it could result in a problem.

Edited April 6, 2011 by BuckarooBanzai

[dunkin2012]

I can not believe that they were so young only 23 and 25 years. How us to avoid the similar situation? What we have to do before to take a shower?

Age has nothing to do with it,if they were 50 would it be acceptable.

RIP,very sad

he means these swedes died too soon...........

[softgeorge]

And so what about one of these types? Does this appear safe?

I'd like to see it outside the shower area (ours is under the sink) but it looks a reasonable installation and it's outside the main splash zone.

You need to investigate under the cover (power off) and look for a ground wire (normally green) as well as the black and white supply wires, trace back to the breaker that controls it, is an RCD or Safe-T-Cut installed? If you have a ground and an RCD it's as safe as it will ever be.

Ours is the same on the otherside of the room under the bench in a cupboard well away from water apart from the inlet outlet points under the heater.

[aonangmrhuw]

Maybe we move in different circles,The tourist police have been outside the place all day...

Maybe I am too dam_n busy with my own hotels to have time to gawk at someone else's misfortune..

Glad to see that the hotel is named by a reputable source.

Simon

Receiving a phone call,from a reputable policeman.Who's a friend of mine,would be classed as gawking ?,,hmmm.

[wintermute]

So do we know the name of this electric chair bungalow operation yet or are the various krabi locals still beating around the bush on here.

[EyesWideOpen]

This is not some new amazing event. I believe last year in Phuket there were two separate deaths involving ungrounded hot water heaters for a shower that killed tourists. I suppose if a bunch more tourists die from showers, Thailand may do something. Perhaps inspections of hotel unit showers?? I dislike the concept of a nanny state as much as anyone, but being electrocuted while on holiday because the hotel could not be bothered to run a ground wire is a bit out of control......

[TheFishman1]

Siamiam O.K. good info.I have travelled a lot but this is the first time I heard of this problem,but I have not travelled to Thailand before this will be my first time,so this has been helpful.I think after reading all it will make me feel safer aleast from showers.

[klikster]

<snip> .. and make sure you NEVER handle anything metallic like metal (chrome) taps handles or pipes. Make sure there are plastic handles.

Are you actually convinced that anything metallic, even though isolated by a non-metallic device, is deadly? For me, that does not compute!

Examples: Metal taps screwed into PVC pipe fittings (both my bathrooms). Standing in the shower while holding a Bt 10 coin .. etc.

[wintermute]

So the brilliant solution from this thread to keep from getting electrocuted is to carry around a plastic bucket when you go traveling?

[EyesWideOpen]

Here is the last electrocution that I remembered from a couple of years ago. He was found dead still holding onto the sprayer hose. So maybe the solution is to not hold onto the hose.......

[dunkin2012]

in 2009, a similar case in Puket with a German and Thai............

Edited April 6, 2011 by dunkin2012

[Nisa]

Here is the last electrocution that I remembered from a couple of years ago. He was found dead still holding onto the sprayer hose. So maybe the solution is to not hold onto the hose.......

http://www.thaivisa....tion-in-phuket/

I would "guess" this would significantly decrease your odds of getting zapped especially when the hose is metallic and coming directly from the heating unit.. I think the bucket thing another poster mentioned might be going a bit far but If you are using a shower you are unfamiliar with I agree in terms of not touching anything in the shower while showering. Even though the heating temp knob may be plastic, I would recommend setting it before turning on the water and even not turning off the water in the shower until you are dried and outside the shower.

When you are wet and/or standing in a puddle of water it is a game changer in terms of getting a little shock (or no shock) and dying. And this is regardless of if you use one hand or both. Would any of us use a hair dryer while standing in a puddle of water?

Edited April 6, 2011 by Nisa

[Nisa]

I stand in the plastic bucket that is intended to be used as a bathing water reservoir. I don't stand barefoot directly on the floor when the power to the mini heater is on,

More power to you (actually not) in your approach but in my opinion I'm not sure a bucket will help and might even in some circumstances increase your odds of getting electrocuted. I would imagine the bucket is going to leave you standing in more water than the shower floor if it is draining properly and the bucket is going to be wet (same as the floor) both inside and out providing the same path as the floor for current to flow.

As for the unit being off. Again just guessing here but would imagine you still can get electrocuted since there is still power running to the unit. The odds may decrease but consider taking a hair dryer into the shower with you that is still plugged in but turned off.

I would bet you would radically decrease your odds of getting electrocuted by simply not touching anything in the shower while you are wet or standing in water. Make any adjustments before you get in and after you dry off.

[siamiam]

So the brilliant solution from this thread to keep from getting electrocuted is to carry around a plastic bucket when you go traveling?

No, it's to make truly worthless comments like the one from you here.

Every hotel I stay at in Thailand has these bathing buckets in the bathroom, no need to carry it around. No need to use it in most instances either. I use the bucket for protection against foot fungus and leaking sinks and toilets more often than for protection against electricity.

[metisdead]

A post meant to incite bickering has been removed.

[BuckarooBanzai]

Let's get back to what this post is all about! Two people died because they were electrocuted in the shower when on vacation.

The only one to blame is the government! The regulations are at fault.

Any one with experience with "electicians" knows that they have no guidelines or overseers to inspect their work.

The verbage should not be about confrontation but should be about a solution.

[JohanB]

Swedish tabloid Expressen reports today that the Thai police is not going to make a criminal investigation!!

It will be considered as an "accident!!

Police have also dismantled all equipments from the bathroom in the resort Mild Bungalows, bungalow A2, including the waterheater and hoses and deliberatly destroyed all evidence!!

see further at: expressen.se Svenskt par dog i dusch - utreds inte (Swedish couple died in a shower - not investigated)

[siamiam]

Swedish tabloid Expressen reports today that the Thai police is not going to make a criminal investigation!!

It will be considered as an "accident!!

Police have also dismantled all equipments from the bathroom in the resort Mild Bungalows, bungalow A2, including the waterheater and hoses and deliberatly destroyed all evidence!!

see further at: expressen.se Svenskt par dog i dusch - utreds inte (Swedish couple died in a shower - not investigated)

Reading that these victims suffered burns made me think there was the possibility the metal parts that carried the electricity in this event, might also have carried marks from the electricity that could be used to figure out how the event happened. Not always the case that the electricity leaves a 'trail' of clues, but when higher power is involved it can.