Cia-Hitman-Bill-William-Young-Found-Dead-At-His-Chiang-Mai-Home

SteeleJoe · April 8, 2011

I hesitated before posting the last post as I thought people would say I was tasking things too seriously and I didn't want to get into an exchange about; it's sort of gratifying that others might feel the same and to have a mod at least acknowledge the possibility that it shouldn't be there.

"Killing was part of the job," he told me, detailing several scenes where he had shot his way out of tight corners in remote hill tribe villages.

that made him a "hitman"?

If you believe what you read, "hitmen" usually prey on people when they are unarmed and basically defenseless.

If he had made any important "hits", i doubt he would have lived to that age without getting payback at some stage..and i doubt whether villagers in those "remote hill tribes" would have been armed up to the teeth either.

+1 for the NOT a hero posters

OK, I give up -- I have to work out what that post means.

But I know the sentence about "remote hill tribes" gives a pretty strong indication that the poster doesn't know what he was talking about either -- so how could I?

chaoyang · April 8, 2011

The story ran with that headline in some British newspaper called "The Week". The Chiang Mai-based writer Edward Loxton -- who I have never heard of -- wrote the piece, which other than the headline and lead paragraph, seems a reasonable summary of Bill's life.

My suspicion is that a Brit tabloid-style editor made the lead more sensational, then stuck that awful headline on the story. There are a number responses pointing out the error on the paper's website.Still, it was picked up by a host of other sites including this one.

jaideeguy · April 9, 2011

Sorry if my OP headline was insulting.....as SBK pointed out, I simply copied and pasted the headline as it was written. I simply found the story interesting and wanted to share and possibly get info and feedback from others that may have actually known Bill [may he RIP].

There was another more detailed and even flattering article in Asia Times online.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/MD08Ae01.html

Bottom line, the guy led an interesting life and it sounds like it would make a great movie and would bet that someone is thinking if it already.

One [morbid] fact that I wonder about......meaning no disrespect, is if he was dying of emphasemia and on 100% oxygen then why make a mess with a gun to the head, when he could simply remove the oxygen and slowly fade away??

Ulysses G. · April 9, 2011

Wouldn't that be the same as slowly smothering to death - not a pleasant way to go.

mouse · April 9, 2011

For those that doubt the authenticity of this hero's history I can only say.

"Those that know will never tell and those that tell will never know"

carmine · April 9, 2011

I hesitated before posting the last post as I thought people would say I was tasking things too seriously and I didn't want to get into an exchange about; it's sort of gratifying that others might feel the same and to have a mod at least acknowledge the possibility that it shouldn't be there.

"Killing was part of the job," he told me, detailing several scenes where he had shot his way out of tight corners in remote hill tribe villages.

that made him a "hitman"?

If you believe what you read, "hitmen" usually prey on people when they are unarmed and basically defenseless.

If he had made any important "hits", i doubt he would have lived to that age without getting payback at some stage..and i doubt whether villagers in those "remote hill tribes" would have been armed up to the teeth either.

+1 for the NOT a hero posters

OK, I give up -- I have to work out what that post means.

But I know the sentence about "remote hill tribes" gives a pretty strong indication that the poster doesn't know what he was talking about either -- so how could I?

I'd ignore it, it sounds like a rather stupid post to my reckoning

Johpa · April 9, 2011

Unfortunately, altering the topic headline is out of the question since its already been indexed by google and would screw up the search parameters and yield a 404 page with google.

So we must all bow to the new aged deity named Google? I have long hypothesized that there are striking similarities between the WWII cargo cults in the South Pacific and the current twitter brained beliefs in the technology messiah. Glad I am an atheist and don't find 404 results as an affront to my beliefs.

philw · April 9, 2011

For those that doubt the authenticity of this hero's history I can only say.

"Those that know will never tell and those that tell will never know"

Can't help thinking that S.E. Asia might be a bit different today. perhaps even improved, if some bible reading interfering Americans had stayed in Montana.

Interesting guy for sure, blood on his hands, fairly sure.

Progress ???

Probably none.

Hero ??

Personally I doubt.

Person who learned and experienced a great deal, i am sure.

Tool of his Government ?, that's the job isn't it.

RIP anyway.

WinnieTheKhwai · April 9, 2011

Hero or villain depends on who wrote the history book. Same job, same shit, different rapport. There were heros/villains doing the exact same thing on the Vietcong / Phatet Lao side. We do now know the nature of what went on in the Lao 'Secret War' in the sixties and seventies, but I wouldn't squabble about it over anyone's grave. Rest in peace.

Edited April 9, 2011 by WinnieTheKhwai

mouse · April 10, 2011

For anyone interested in this story, next time you go to Vientiane Laos go to the main Museum in the center of town and you will see the other side of the story. Quite a large display and certainly interesting.

Ulysses G. · April 10, 2011

It is fun figuring out who the colonialists, the puppets, the Imperialists and so forth are as they do not specify (at least the last time that I visited). Communist propoganda is so retro.

chaoyang · April 10, 2011

Can't help thinking that S.E. Asia might be a bit different today. perhaps even improved, if some bible reading interfering Americans had stayed in Montana.

Interesting guy for sure, blood on his hands, fairly sure.

Progress ???

Probably none <snip>

Who knows -- if it hadn't been for him and others like him, you might not be able to live in Thailand and enjoy relative freedom of speech. It too could have become a one-party, soul-less state that would have banned thaivisa.com long ago.

Of course I am talking about Vietnam, Laos and my current country of residence China.

There was a concern at the time that Thailand could be next. Without the efforts that were made, that concern might have turned into reality.

Maybe we would be better if you stayed in whatever hometown spawned you -- now that doesn't feel very nice to hear does it?

You might want to try showing a little respect and decency.

BarnicaleBob · April 10, 2011

As a matter of interest, tonight (Sunday) at 10 PM local time the History channel will be showing the story about "America's Secret Base in Laos". I saw a preview ad for this show yesterday and it showed Bill Young being interviewed as part of the show.

SteeleJoe · April 10, 2011

For anyone interested in this story, next time you go to Vientiane Laos go to the main Museum in the center of town and you will see the other side of the story. Quite a large display and certainly interesting.

I think one should look at this story (as any other) from all sides. I think you should have (as I have had) sources from every perspective, weigh them against each other, put things into the proper context (ie allow for what was and wasn't known then and what was felt and why) and come to as close an approximation of the reality as you can --while accepting that it aint necessarily going to be 100% complete or accurate.

So I fully agree that the Lao National Musueum is worth checking out (as is the Lao People's Army History Museum).But calling it the other side of the story? Even in a modern democracy the danger of a national museum being somewhat biased should be obvious. In a communist country museum? Surely you know what role such things play in one party authoritarian states like Laos?

Let's say it another side of the story. How true of a one it is, a person can perhaps decide after having enough facts.

What's certain is that plenty of dedicated people in Laos sacrificed a lot for what they believed (including even some Americans) and Laos suffered a great deal. Would they view Bill Young as a hero or think kindly of him? Actually some old Pathet Lao might have some real regard for him,but the average Lao? No, I wouldn't think so. Is that the only "right"way to see it? No.

carmine · April 11, 2011

As a matter of interest, tonight (Sunday) at 10 PM local time the History channel will be showing the story about "America's Secret Base in Laos". I saw a preview ad for this show yesterday and it showed Bill Young being interviewed as part of the show.

I'd be interested in watching this. Does anyone know if and when it will be repeated?

OneZero · April 11, 2011

As a matter of interest, tonight (Sunday) at 10 PM local time the History channel will be showing the story about "America's Secret Base in Laos". I saw a preview ad for this show yesterday and it showed Bill Young being interviewed as part of the show.

I'd be interested in watching this. Does anyone know if and when it will be repeated?

The history channel advert I saw stated Sunday 17April 2100 hrs (Thai time). If any further doubt check www.historyasia.com

cmsally · April 11, 2011

Unfortunately, altering the topic headline is out of the question since its already been indexed by google and would screw up the search parameters and yield a 404 page with google.

So we must all bow to the new aged deity named Google? I have long hypothesized that there are striking similarities between the WWII cargo cults in the South Pacific and the current twitter brained beliefs in the technology messiah. Glad I am an atheist and don't find 404 results as an affront to my beliefs.

I'm glad someone wrote that, it was exactly what I was thinking. Seems a strange era we live in when the reputation of a deceased person loses out to Google!

Not really the proper place to put in a link but for those who need to come down from their technological cloud; do a search for "blackberry one ronnie"

To suggest someone else made up the headline so its OK to copy it is a weak argument. It is still libel I believe, in that it has been copied and published for public view.

harrry · April 11, 2011

Unfortunately, altering the topic headline is out of the question since its already been indexed by google and would screw up the search parameters and yield a 404 page with google.

So we must all bow to the new aged deity named Google? I have long hypothesized that there are striking similarities between the WWII cargo cults in the South Pacific and the current twitter brained beliefs in the technology messiah. Glad I am an atheist and don't find 404 results as an affront to my beliefs.

I'm glad someone wrote that, it was exactly what I was thinking. Seems a strange era we live in when the reputation of a deceased person loses out to Google!

Not really the proper place to put in a link but for those who need to come down from their technological cloud; do a search for "blackberry one ronnie"

To suggest someone else made up the headline so its OK to copy it is a weak argument. It is still libel I believe, in that it has been copied and published for public view.

So you believe in the power to rewrite history. I for one prefer honesty. Even if there was a valid reason for the actions of this person and others in Laos was there ever a reason to keep the action secret.

SteeleJoe · April 11, 2011

Unfortunately, altering the topic headline is out of the question since its already been indexed by google and would screw up the search parameters and yield a 404 page with google.

So we must all bow to the new aged deity named Google? I have long hypothesized that there are striking similarities between the WWII cargo cults in the South Pacific and the current twitter brained beliefs in the technology messiah. Glad I am an atheist and don't find 404 results as an affront to my beliefs.

I'm glad someone wrote that, it was exactly what I was thinking. Seems a strange era we live in when the reputation of a deceased person loses out to Google!

Not really the proper place to put in a link but for those who need to come down from their technological cloud; do a search for "blackberry one ronnie"

To suggest someone else made up the headline so its OK to copy it is a weak argument. It is still libel I believe, in that it has been copied and published for public view.

So you believe in the power to rewrite history. I for one prefer honesty. Even if there was a valid reason for the actions of this person and others in Laos was there ever a reason to keep the action secret.

You've misread or missed the point. Or are you just to determined to view things a certain way (ie biased)?

As far as I can recall, none of the people who object to the headline -- including me -- have taken a position on whether there was a valid reason for the actions of this person and others in Laos or if there was ever a reason to keep the action secret. No one has advocated re-writing history or dishonesty (note there's no objection to the content of the story).

And by the way, I can't tell if the last part of your post was a question or not but -- yes, sometimes there are valid reasons for doing things that need to be kept secret. I'm NOT saying this was one of those cases but there were reasons to keep Lao operations secret and those reasons would remain valid even if the reasons for the action were valid (which of course is pretty subjective anyway).

harrry · April 11, 2011

Changing (Rewriting) the headline is as much rewriting history as any other act on this.

Biased...maybe,,,,but when you compare the countless lao people maimed for the privalage of a country dealing in drugs on government sponsered airlines ....perhapsw I have reason to be. As far as this individual is concerned I bear him no ill will nor do I for the many individuals doingwhat they felt was right at the time. Sadly I think they were misled by their governments but deleting headlines or rewriting history does not fix this.

Edited April 11, 2011 by harrry

jfchandler · April 11, 2011

I didn't know this individual, nor have any great personal knowledge about the subjects involved... However, I am a professional journalist... And in that context...

There is really a total disconnect between the headline and lede of the article and the contents of the article...

No doubt, there were U.S. forces involved in assassinations of locals during the Vietnam era... I believe that's been pretty well documented in history. Was Bill Young one of those individuals? The article certainly doesn't address that, talking instead only about his activities organizing and working with/thru local hill tribes people. Young certainly could have been involved in both of those kinds of activities, but the article doesn't address that. So we're left wondering.

And then, only thru the posted comments responding to the article, do we learn that apparently Young was suffering from some serious illness. The article again makes no reference to that. The individual ostensibly kills himself with a gun, but the article deigns to make no reference to a chronic illness.

BTW, at least in my many years of working as a newspaper journalist, I don't think I ever wrote the headlines for my own articles. But I almost always KNEW/CHECKED what the headline would be before it made it into print or online (out of self preservation, because sometimes the copy desk written headlines would have problems). Where was the author when this headline was written?

Given the gaping disparities between the headline and the article, one wonders how much of a real journalist is responsible for the report. And if these various things are lacking, you begin to wonder how much else may be missing or wrong in the report.

Edited April 11, 2011 by jfchandler

SteeleJoe · April 11, 2011

Changing (Rewriting) the headline is as much rewriting history as any other act on this.

Biased...maybe,,,,but when you compare the countless lao people maimed for the privalage of a country dealing in drugs on government sponsered airlines ....perhapsw I have reason to be. As far as this individual is concerned I bear him no ill will nor do I for the many individuals doingwhat they felt was right at the time. Sadly I think they were misled by their governments but deleting headlines or rewriting history does not fix this.

1) As much as any other act? That's just silly. (So for example, changing it to something like "CIA operative" or whatever would be the same as writing in the story that the US never did anything wrong in Laos or that it's clear that the guy was a hero and no one can dispute that?)

You assume that a headline is indeed an accurate accounting of history? Why?

The "countless maimed Laos " were maimed for the privilege of dealing drugs? Not quite. It may have been an unjust and/or illegitimate war but you seem to be lacking in a proper understanding of what happened and why.

And biased people usually have a reason to be biased -- whether it's a good one or not is a separate issue. And more to the point, the bias distorts what one sees and says, regardless of whether one has a reason for the bias.

SteeleJoe · April 11, 2011

There is really a total disconnect between the headline and lede of the article and the contents of the article...
No doubt, there were U.S. forces involved in assassinations of locals during the Vietnam era... I believe that's been pretty well documented in history. Was Bill Young one of those individuals? The article certainly doesn't address that...Young certainly could have been involved in both of those kinds of activities, but the article doesn't address that.

Bingo.

Great post, by the way. And nice to read someone qualified to speak on the journalistic aspect.

SteeleJoe · April 11, 2011

Changing (Rewriting) the headline is as much rewriting history as any other act on this.

Biased...maybe,,,,but when you compare the countless lao people maimed for the privalage of a country dealing in drugs on government sponsered airlines ....perhapsw I have reason to be. As far as this individual is concerned I bear him no ill will nor do I for the many individuals doingwhat they felt was right at the time. Sadly I think they were misled by their governments but deleting headlines or rewriting history does not fix this.

1) As much as any other act? That's just silly. (So for example, changing it to something like "CIA operative" or whatever would be the same as writing in the story that the US never did anything wrong in Laos or that it's clear that the guy was a hero and no one can dispute that?)

You assume that a headline is indeed an accurate accounting of history? Why?

The "countless maimed Laos " were maimed for the privilege of dealing drugs? Not quite. It may have been an unjust and/or illegitimate war but you seem to be lacking in a proper understanding of what happened and why.

And biased people usually have a reason to be biased -- whether it's a good one or not is a separate issue. And more to the point, the bias distorts what one sees and says, regardless of whether one has a reason for the bias.

Want to add:

I hope you reply Harry but in the interest of full disclosure (and as may be surmised from my first post on the thread) I must acknowldege that I have to be careful of my own bias (though it's not much of one if at all). But I think I have been objective on this thread as i am on the subject which I know a fair bit about and my objections to the story have to do with facts (or rather a lack of them): I'm not determined to view him as unconditionally a hero nor do I insist that others do, therefore I don't require that a a headline call him one. I'm guessing you are determined to see him as ultimately more a villain and feel that others should as well and thus see the headline as "history".

Edited April 11, 2011 by SteeleJoe

jfchandler · April 11, 2011

This account, which shows up in multiple sites around the web, appears to be a bit more sober, well-documented account of Young's life...

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1104/S00036/cia-suicide-after-a-life-of-god-and-guns.htm

And it doesn't lend any credence to the OP's reference to "hit man."

harrry · April 11, 2011

As you have observed my bias is the view it was an un needed war where many ordinary people were injured or died for reasons thatare still fairly unclear. At least in the case of the war in Vietnam it was acknowledged at the time.

I knew many of the people involved in the war in Vietnam as I had onlyjust left the Australian army at the time. I also lived in Thailand during the time much of this happened and met many people involved in various degreesin the less publicised aspects of this campaign. In general I feel they were doing what they felt their countries required and as such respect their actions although I now think they were wrong.

In regards to headlines. It should stay as it is. It may be inacurate and if so people can and have commented. This is their right. Changing the headline or the posts only has the effect of making the respnses meaningless as some are responses to the headline or influenced by it.

In regard to the Air America and other US conteracted carriers dealing in drugs so that the campaign in Laos could remain secret and not show on the official publicised budgets I will say I have little respect for the governments and agencies that encouraged these acts.

As for the individual concerned in regard to his actions in the secret war I can understand...I can understand less some of his apparent actions in changing a culture.

Edited April 11, 2011 by harrry

SteeleJoe · April 11, 2011

Can I safely surmise you have read the article just linkedand that has affected your subsequent post? (ie it’s no longer a case of the Laosbeing maimed for theprivilege of dealing drugs?)

As you have observed my bias is the view it was an un neededwar where many ordinary people were injured or died for reasons thatare stillfairly unclear. At least in the case of the war in Vietnam it was acknowledgedat the time.

No, that’s not “bias”. A bias is an “ inclination or prejudice for or against oneperson or group, especially in a way considered to be unfair”.What I’ve bolded is an opinion – and quite a legitimate one based on somefacts.

I knew many of the people involved in the war in Vietnam

Me too. And some of the ones in Laos too, But let me just say that people in a war don’tnecessarily know a lot about it: they may know far more than you or I ever willabout what it was like to be in their little part of it, but they don’tnecessarily know much more, if any, about the overall situation and the wheresand whys than anyone else. Indeed it’s possible that someone (like me, forexample) who has made a study of the big picture – with the benefit ofhindsight and facts not available to the soldier in the field etc – might knowmore about that big picture.

I also lived in Thailand during the time much of thishappened and met many people involved in various degreesin the less publicisedaspects of this campaign.

I’ll bet you learned some interesting things then! No doubtsome of it even true.

In general I feel they were doing what they felt theircountries required and as such respect their actions although I now think theywere wrong.

That’s admirably objective and fair of you. Kudos.

I won’t go over the headline thing again –clearly we’re getting nowhere (especially since you refused to reply to my points on this last time.)

As for the individual concerned in regard to hisactions in the secret war I can understand...I can understand less some of hisapparent actions in changing a culture.

I’m actually in agreement with you there.

SteeleJoe · April 11, 2011