Pensions Abroad/"Reciprical Arrangement."

[nong38]

The reason the UK government gives for freezing annual increases for ex pats who have moved abroad is that does not have a "reciprical arrangement" with that country. What exactly is this mysterious arrangement? I have yet to see a definition of it. The UK has it with the Phillipines but not Australia or New Zealand, it has it with USA but not Canada, it has it with Jamaica but not Trinidad, it even has it with Turkey but not Thailand. I hope someone on this learned forum can explain what the mysterious "reciprical arrangement " is. thanks in anticipation.

[ESB7]

Its just a way of scamming you again..... if it wasnt for the EU or other countries governments that have citezens which have built up pension rights in the UK, they would certainly ban increases regardless of where you went....

[nong38]

Its just a way of scamming you again..... if it wasnt for the EU or other countries governments that have citezens which have built up pension rights in the UK, they would certainly ban increases regardless of where you went....

I Agree its a scam and very mean too, but what is the "recipral arrangement"? I have yet to have anyone explain it me let alone try and defend it.

[lopburi3]

I suspect it may be like the US/Thailand tax agreement on government pensions where the tax it paid in the paying country and exempt from tax in the other country.

[monsieurhappy]

Its just a way of scamming you again..... if it wasnt for the EU or other countries governments that have citezens which have built up pension rights in the UK, they would certainly ban increases regardless of where you went....

I Agree its a scam and very mean too, but what is the "recipral arrangement"? I have yet to have anyone explain it me let alone try and defend it.

The way I read it is ( I could be wrong here ) if you go to work in another country and pay into their National Insurance Scheme for X amount of years, on returning to your own country you will be entitled to those years as if you had worked in the UK.So if you had worked in the UK for say 20 years and the US for 10 years because they have a reciprocal agreement with the UK your total payments would be 30 years giving you a full UK pension.

This, IMO does not mean that if you have worked your full 30 years in the UK they should freeze your pension when you go to live in a country that doesn't have a reciprocal agreement. But! as the politicians know only too well that pensioners don't have much clout, they are always the first place they can grab money back from.

[meatboy]

i am in the same boat after 44years of paying full stamps i dont get the yearly increase,there was a case back in 2009 in which a lady living in south africa took the uk gov.to the court of human rights over this issue they ruled in favour of the gov.any way it beats living in what has become a sh-t hole.

[Renbe]

i am in the same boat after 44years of paying full stamps i dont get the yearly increase,there was a case back in 2009 in which a lady living in south africa took the uk gov.to the court of human rights over this issue they ruled in favour of the gov.any way it beats living in what has become a sh-t hole.

The Dutch Government proposed a new law that will "adjust" (read: lower) the pensions and child support money for Dutch people living outside the EU to the standard of living of the country in which they live. Since there is a majority in Parliament, this bill will pass and come into effect per January 1st 2010.

The argument the Government uses is that pensions and child support are meant for "consumption" in Holland/EU and not abroad. The ultimate goal is to end all pensions and child support outside the EU, for which the Dutch government would have to alter some 40 international agreements.

In practice this means that the 440 Dutch men/woman, married to Thai women/men, and receiving monthly child support, will see a 80% drop, and the same goes for the unknown number of Dutch pensioners living in Thailand, as their pensions will also be "adjusted" to the Thai standard of living.

However, Dutch living in (non EU) countries like Norway and Switzerland will not see their pensions adjusted (read: raised) to the higher standard of living, because, according to the Government, people are free to live where they want, but not on the expense of the Dutch taxpayer.

The real reason is to lower the amount of money flowing to Morocco and Turkey where many people return after having working in Holland. This might backfire, as many Moroccan and Turkish pensioners might decide not to return to their home countries at all and stay in Holland with a full pension.

This new bill will save the Dutch Government at least 30 million euro per year, and I suppose other European countries will follow suit.

For people who can read Dutch : http://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/werk-en-uitkering-in-het-buitenland/uitkering-meenemen-naar-het-buitenland#anker-maatregelen-tegen-export-uitkeringen

[12DrinkMore]

This reciprocal agreement scam is described

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Pensionsandretirementplanning/StatePension/StatePensionforecast/DG_180322

http://www.pensionsadvisoryservice.org.uk/state-pensions/living-overseas

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/nic/work/ss-agree.htm

I have never been able to find out why all this came into being and why only certain countries signed up for it, seems an anomaly.

The big question is what will happen to the UK expat pensioners after the proposed sweeping changes are made in a few years. I wrote to the guy in charge, but, as expected, he never replied. Doubtless my letter was filed in round cabinet.

[transam]

i am in the same boat after 44years of paying full stamps i dont get the yearly increase,there was a case back in 2009 in which a lady living in south africa took the uk gov.to the court of human rights over this issue they ruled in favour of the gov.any way it beats living in what has become a sh-t hole.

Yes, l must agree, as now immigrants are taken care of big time where as those who might have fought for the UK and are old are now history.

Edited April 30, 2011 by transam

[nong38]

We seem to be not able to have a definetive answer to my original question, some thoughts and suggestions, I have always been a supporter of the Europeon Idea but as a result of reading what the Dutch Govt might be up to its does make you wonder if its worth it, the UK has one set of rules, the Dutch now think they will change all that, seems to me like whatever happens someone makes sure you dont win. I think maybe the answer is to vote UKIP at the next election, I had previously mostly voted tory, but was not there for the last one, yes UKIP for me, sometimes I think the only way to win is to turn up and claim I am seeking political assylum and after a couple of years when we have all the benefits sorted out, offer to go away, here are my terms and fees. Sure is not the country I was born and brought up in.

[transam]

We seem to be not able to have a definetive answer to my original question, some thoughts and suggestions, I have always been a supporter of the Europeon Idea but as a result of reading what the Dutch Govt might be up to its does make you wonder if its worth it, the UK has one set of rules, the Dutch now think they will change all that, seems to me like whatever happens someone makes sure you dont win. I think maybe the answer is to vote UKIP at the next election, I had previously mostly voted tory, but was not there for the last one, yes UKIP for me, sometimes I think the only way to win is to turn up and claim I am seeking political assylum and after a couple of years when we have all the benefits sorted out, offer to go away, here are my terms and fees. Sure is not the country I was born and brought up in.

How right you are. Me an oldy, and my late dad who fought for the UK in 39 up, died an unhappy man, saw his country given away to people who did not strike and fight for the stuff it has now.

[Rinrada]

Its not over until the fat lady...etc....

Why freezing expat pensions makes no sense

By moving abroad, pensioners would save the Exchequer billions of pounds in health and social care costs - highly desirable at a time when the UK needs to make deep cuts to its welfare budget. So, asks John Markham, why isn't the government doing more to encourage it?

Politicians and the media alike are currently fixated on Britain’s ageing population. According to the Government, the UK will have 626,900 people aged 100 or more by 2080, 53 times the current number of centenarians.This type of shock statistic was released with a very concrete objective – to sweeten the pill of controversial public sector pension reforms. ...more

The-International-Consortium-of-British-Pensioners-ICBP

(with thanks:Telegraph)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/offshorefinance/8382837/Why-freezing-expat-pensions-makes-no-sense.html

[nong38]

I got an email from thisismoney.co.uk earlier this week, a good few bits about pension/pensioners one interesting note was that as we ex pats are overseas it is estimated that we save the NHS alone 7000 pounds a year, you would have thought they could afford a fiver a year refund would you not, I wonder if the pension freeze is a blanket one or if civil servants are excluded?

[theoldgit]

I wonder if the pension freeze is a blanket one or if civil servants are excluded?

It applies to everyone, including civil servants.

However, as a retired civil servant my civil service pension is uprated yearly in line with any increase in the cost of living wherever I live in the world, this is the same for all occupational pensions, I believe.

Edited April 30, 2011 by theoldgit

[Rinrada]

It would actually make sense for the Government to PAY expat pensioners say £100 quid a week to STAY AWAY from the UK......however maybe one day...forever an optimiste ....

[nong38]

It would actually make sense for the Government to PAY expat pensioners say £100 quid a week to STAY AWAY from the UK......however maybe one day...forever an optimiste ....

Maybe they fund it from the 650million they give to Pakistan.

[12DrinkMore]

Just had the following BS from my Personal Democratically Elected Political Representative,

Blah blah blah blah.....

The European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) recently rejected an appeal by expatriate pensioners and ruled that the Government was not obliged to pay annual inflation-linked state pension increases to expatriates. The Government has said that it continues to take its obligations under the terms of the European Convention on Human Rights seriously and is satisfied that it is complying and therefore has no plans to make any changes to the current arrangements.

I'm afraid that Government Ministers do not, by convention sign any Early Day Motions, as doing so is likely to breach the Ministerial Code's rules on collective responsibility.

...blah blah blah.

So basically a big fuc_k YOU to all the British Pensioners, as no "Government Minister" is prepared to raise a finger because of some "Ministerial Code of collective responsibility".

I guess that this "Ministerial Code of collective responsibility" is also the reason why they were all collectively troughing away at the Ministerial Expenses and the economy of the UK is deep in the crap, because they are all too scared to break the same "Ministerial Code of collective responsibility", as opposed to taking on "Individual Responsibility".

wanke_rs, one and all.

[thaimate]

Keep an address in Britain ,and i know someone who has done it for 20 years ,going there on holiday twice a year ,his answer to what would happen if he was cought is ,what can they do ,ime 76 ,fwuck em.

[12DrinkMore]

Keep an address in Britain ,and i know someone who has done it for 20 years ,going there on holiday twice a year ,his answer to what would happen if he was cought is ,what can they do ,ime 76 ,fwuck em.

Free board and lodging at the tax payers' expense?