Do You Support Legalization Of Same Sex Marriage In Thailand?

[jdinasia]

The vast majority of people support allowing gays to marry. The TV poll currently shows 53% in favor of "marriage" and that majority is reflected in polls in the US (I don't know about other places).

You have an interesting idea of "vast"! (And apparently base it entirely on the US populace and responders to a poll on TV -- maybe there's some people you're leaving out?)

Might be a few people left out

But the numbers on TVF would be over 72% support marriage or civil unions

[SteeleJoe]

Robert: I meant to ask -- have you ever used the word "xenophobic"? Maybe even on this forum?

[SteeleJoe]

The vast majority of people support allowing gays to marry. The TV poll currently shows 53% in favor of "marriage" and that majority is reflected in polls in the US (I don't know about other places).

You have an interesting idea of "vast"! (And apparently base it entirely on the US populace and responders to a poll on TV -- maybe there's some people you're leaving out?)

Might be a few people left out

But the numbers on TVF would be over 72% support marriage or civil unions

I have no idea of whether it is, but I'd be pleased if that was somewhere near being representative of the majority of the world. (or at least secular nominally democratic societies).

Edited June 5, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[jdinasia]

The vast majority of people support allowing gays to marry. The TV poll currently shows 53% in favor of "marriage" and that majority is reflected in polls in the US (I don't know about other places).

You have an interesting idea of "vast"! (And apparently base it entirely on the US populace and responders to a poll on TV -- maybe there's some people you're leaving out?)

Might be a few people left out

But the numbers on TVF would be over 72% support marriage or civil unions

I have no idea of whether it is, but I'd be pleased if that was somewhere near being representative of the majority of the world. (or at least secular nominally democratic societies).

Having had a lengthy discussion of "the world's view" with kerryk --- it looks like about 60%+ of the world's population may be represented by governments that tacitly or explicitly allow gay marriages/unions soon.

China is considering the bill AND decriminalized homosexuality. India's High court decriminalized homosexuality and there are reports of marriages there. Even Indonesia is becoming more tolerant, even though it is still rough on gays and lesbians there.

In Jordan same sex sexual relations have been legal for a LONG time (since the 1950's) -- finding that out shocked me. Israel does not perform gay marriages, but does recognize gay marriages from other countries .. so if you are Israeli .. it means you combine the honeymoon and wedding into one trip! (A new tourism venture for Thailand! -- They could make a killing!)

Most of Europe and all of NA have at least some areas where there are gay marriages or civil unions (legal in some places in Canada US and Mexico!)

I hate UG's comparison --- but it is true that the world is changing very quickly on this topic!

Like in that lengthy conversation with KerryK ... I would still have to say that 70% of the people in the world have never given the topic ANY consideration .. and approval would depend on how you asked the question.

If I wrote the poll question for Thailand ... I would write it like this (though in Thai of course)

Q: "Do you support equal rights for all Thais, and if so does that extend to allowing same sex couples register their relationships at the local Amphur office?"

I honestly think that a question phrased this way would get well over 50% approval -----

I also think that if the Thai gay rights advocates made some PSA's explaining why it is important that the numbers could reach 70% approval.

[kerryk]

I think China cuts both ways. If you want to state that almost a majority of people are in a country that allows same sex marriage then you talk about China in the future. If you want to state that many people are in countries that don't allow same sex marriage then you talk about China in the present.

If you can't bring yourself to discuss that the majority of people in the world don't want same sex marriage they you state that with proper education or information people would be in favor of same sex marriage.

Do people who have no opinion want to change something they know anything about? Yes if you are in favor of same sex marriage and no if you are not in favor.

I would put no opinion in the NO category. I don't think that is open to debate from a logical point of view.

I think you would have to be naive to think Thailand would ever approve same sex marriage but then I also thought Thailand would never outlaw the opium trade and of course they did.

Thailand has a very flexible population and can adopt things like spoons and forks instead of eating with hands almost overnight. They can go from disliking Chinese to liking Chinese in a heartbeat. Things that looking at Thai history one would think was never possible.

I have no idea who is shaping Thai public opinion today, so I have no real idea where the same sex marriage question will go. China is easier to predict in that it makes economic sense for them to reduce population growth.

I said before I really don't care. I don't have a problem with parental issues. A small vocal minority can effect nationwide decisions if they are smart in their approach. Being argumentative and pompous is rarely a good tactic. Finding a reason to gain consensus is usually a better approach.

Frankly I think there are so many major issues facing Thailand today I wonder that anyone has time for same sex marriage. Knowing how Thai people feel about families and children and business and appearances the great majority will stay in the closet for the foreseeable future so I can't think legislation for same sex marriage will ever make it to the ballot or referendum or other law making procedures and if it does only a few ex pats will be there to take advantage of it.

[Richard4849]

I think China cuts both ways. If you want to state that almost a majority of people are in a country that allows same sex marriage then you talk about China in the future. If you want to state that many people are in countries that don't allow same sex marriage then you talk about China in the present.

If you can't bring yourself to discuss that the majority of people in the world don't want same sex marriage they you state that with proper education or information people would be in favor of same sex marriage.

Do people who have no opinion want to change something they know anything about? Yes if you are in favor of same sex marriage and no if you are not in favor.

I would put no opinion in the NO category. I don't think that is open to debate from a logical point of view.

I think you would have to be naive to think Thailand would ever approve same sex marriage but then I also thought Thailand would never outlaw the opium trade and of course they did.

Thailand has a very flexible population and can adopt things like spoons and forks instead of eating with hands almost overnight. They can go from disliking Chinese to liking Chinese in a heartbeat. Things that looking at Thai history one would think was never possible.

I have no idea who is shaping Thai public opinion today, so I have no real idea where the same sex marriage question will go. China is easier to predict in that it makes economic sense for them to reduce population growth.

I said before I really don't care. I don't have a problem with parental issues. A small vocal minority can effect nationwide decisions if they are smart in their approach. Being argumentative and pompous is rarely a good tactic. Finding a reason to gain consensus is usually a better approach.

Frankly I think there are so many major issues facing Thailand today I wonder that anyone has time for same sex marriage. Knowing how Thai people feel about families and children and business and appearances the great majority will stay in the closet for the foreseeable future so I can't think legislation for same sex marriage will ever make it to the ballot or referendum or other law making procedures and if it does only a few ex pats will be there to take advantage of it.

I'm beginning to wonder if we live in the same country.

The majority of gays in Thailand "in the closet"? I have never been anywhere, in all my life -- around 70 countries at last count -- where there were more open and visible gay and transgendered people than in Thailand. The only closet cases of which I know are the children of wealthy and traditional Thai-Chinese families, and this a very, very small majority.

My prediction is that same-sex unions will be legalized in Thailand in the next five years. I also predict that transgender people will be able to legally change their gender on ID documents.

[kerryk]

I think China cuts both ways. If you want to state that almost a majority of people are in a country that allows same sex marriage then you talk about China in the future. If you want to state that many people are in countries that don't allow same sex marriage then you talk about China in the present.

If you can't bring yourself to discuss that the majority of people in the world don't want same sex marriage they you state that with proper education or information people would be in favor of same sex marriage.

Do people who have no opinion want to change something they know anything about? Yes if you are in favor of same sex marriage and no if you are not in favor.

I would put no opinion in the NO category. I don't think that is open to debate from a logical point of view.

I think you would have to be naive to think Thailand would ever approve same sex marriage but then I also thought Thailand would never outlaw the opium trade and of course they did.

Thailand has a very flexible population and can adopt things like spoons and forks instead of eating with hands almost overnight. They can go from disliking Chinese to liking Chinese in a heartbeat. Things that looking at Thai history one would think was never possible.

I have no idea who is shaping Thai public opinion today, so I have no real idea where the same sex marriage question will go. China is easier to predict in that it makes economic sense for them to reduce population growth.

I said before I really don't care. I don't have a problem with parental issues. A small vocal minority can effect nationwide decisions if they are smart in their approach. Being argumentative and pompous is rarely a good tactic. Finding a reason to gain consensus is usually a better approach.

Frankly I think there are so many major issues facing Thailand today I wonder that anyone has time for same sex marriage. Knowing how Thai people feel about families and children and business and appearances the great majority will stay in the closet for the foreseeable future so I can't think legislation for same sex marriage will ever make it to the ballot or referendum or other law making procedures and if it does only a few ex pats will be there to take advantage of it.

I'm beginning to wonder if we live in the same country.

The majority of gays in Thailand "in the closet"? I have never been anywhere, in all my life -- around 70 countries at last count -- where there were more open and visible gay and transgendered people than in Thailand. The only closet cases of which I know are the children of wealthy and traditional Thai-Chinese families, and this a very, very small majority.

My prediction is that same-sex unions will be legalized in Thailand in the next five years. I also predict that transgender people will be able to legally change their gender on ID documents.

You are correct 100% of the Thai gay men that I know are from wealthy Thai-Chinese families. So that is where my opinion comes from.

[jdinasia]

Excluded Middle (False Dichotomy, Faulty Dilemma, Bifurcation):

assuming there are only two alternatives when in fact there are more. For example, assuming Atheism is the only alternative to Fundamentalism, or being a traitor is the only alternative to being a loud patriot.

Special Pleading (Stacking The Deck):

using the arguments that support your position, but ignoring or somehow disallowing the arguments against.

source ---

http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/arguments.html

These would describe the fallacious arguments that the only way to assume that people who had never considered the argument would make a judgment based upon that argument in only one way. Quite simply stating that anyone who hasn't considered gay marriage would be an automatic "no" vote denies the reality that there are other options. (Like Yes, or No Vote)

If a person is basing his entire argument on the basis of a minority set of a minority population --- and not on the population as a whole (or in this case simply the population of eligible voters in Thailand) We can assume that there will be skewed results in his analysis.

The fact that a closeted gay man in Thailand that is remaining so because of his Chinese heritage, does in no way, indicate how he would vote about the topic of gay marriage/ domestic partnership. It doesn't even indicate how his family would vote. All it indicates is how he will act in public at this point in time, and what the overt familial expectations are. There is a gay sauna in BKK where the vast majority of patrons are Th/Ch and married/closeted. However there is also one with an extremely large ethnic Ch. clientele where most are not closeted and are far more "out". It is important to remember that the coming out process is exactly that. People are at different stages at different points in their lives and every single day have to re-make the decision in new situations.

[Richard4849]

I think China cuts both ways. If you want to state that almost a majority of people are in a country that allows same sex marriage then you talk about China in the future. If you want to state that many people are in countries that don't allow same sex marriage then you talk about China in the present.

If you can't bring yourself to discuss that the majority of people in the world don't want same sex marriage they you state that with proper education or information people would be in favor of same sex marriage.

Do people who have no opinion want to change something they know anything about? Yes if you are in favor of same sex marriage and no if you are not in favor.

I would put no opinion in the NO category. I don't think that is open to debate from a logical point of view.

I think you would have to be naive to think Thailand would ever approve same sex marriage but then I also thought Thailand would never outlaw the opium trade and of course they did.

Thailand has a very flexible population and can adopt things like spoons and forks instead of eating with hands almost overnight. They can go from disliking Chinese to liking Chinese in a heartbeat. Things that looking at Thai history one would think was never possible.

I have no idea who is shaping Thai public opinion today, so I have no real idea where the same sex marriage question will go. China is easier to predict in that it makes economic sense for them to reduce population growth.

I said before I really don't care. I don't have a problem with parental issues. A small vocal minority can effect nationwide decisions if they are smart in their approach. Being argumentative and pompous is rarely a good tactic. Finding a reason to gain consensus is usually a better approach.

Frankly I think there are so many major issues facing Thailand today I wonder that anyone has time for same sex marriage. Knowing how Thai people feel about families and children and business and appearances the great majority will stay in the closet for the foreseeable future so I can't think legislation for same sex marriage will ever make it to the ballot or referendum or other law making procedures and if it does only a few ex pats will be there to take advantage of it.

I'm beginning to wonder if we live in the same country.

The majority of gays in Thailand "in the closet"? I have never been anywhere, in all my life -- around 70 countries at last count -- where there were more open and visible gay and transgendered people than in Thailand. The only closet cases of which I know are the children of wealthy and traditional Thai-Chinese families, and this a very, very small majority.

My prediction is that same-sex unions will be legalized in Thailand in the next five years. I also predict that transgender people will be able to legally change their gender on ID documents.

You are correct 100% of the Thai gay men that I know are from wealthy Thai-Chinese families. So that is where my opinion comes from.

Then before you generalize, maybe you should expand the scope of your personal contacts beyond the maybe .5% of the population (if that) which might be considered "wealthy Thai-Chinese families".

[kerryk]

I think China cuts both ways. If you want to state that almost a majority of people are in a country that allows same sex marriage then you talk about China in the future. If you want to state that many people are in countries that don't allow same sex marriage then you talk about China in the present.

If you can't bring yourself to discuss that the majority of people in the world don't want same sex marriage they you state that with proper education or information people would be in favor of same sex marriage.

Do people who have no opinion want to change something they know anything about? Yes if you are in favor of same sex marriage and no if you are not in favor.

I would put no opinion in the NO category. I don't think that is open to debate from a logical point of view.

I think you would have to be naive to think Thailand would ever approve same sex marriage but then I also thought Thailand would never outlaw the opium trade and of course they did.

Thailand has a very flexible population and can adopt things like spoons and forks instead of eating with hands almost overnight. They can go from disliking Chinese to liking Chinese in a heartbeat. Things that looking at Thai history one would think was never possible.

I have no idea who is shaping Thai public opinion today, so I have no real idea where the same sex marriage question will go. China is easier to predict in that it makes economic sense for them to reduce population growth.

I said before I really don't care. I don't have a problem with parental issues. A small vocal minority can effect nationwide decisions if they are smart in their approach. Being argumentative and pompous is rarely a good tactic. Finding a reason to gain consensus is usually a better approach.

Frankly I think there are so many major issues facing Thailand today I wonder that anyone has time for same sex marriage. Knowing how Thai people feel about families and children and business and appearances the great majority will stay in the closet for the foreseeable future so I can't think legislation for same sex marriage will ever make it to the ballot or referendum or other law making procedures and if it does only a few ex pats will be there to take advantage of it.

I'm beginning to wonder if we live in the same country.

The majority of gays in Thailand "in the closet"? I have never been anywhere, in all my life -- around 70 countries at last count -- where there were more open and visible gay and transgendered people than in Thailand. The only closet cases of which I know are the children of wealthy and traditional Thai-Chinese families, and this a very, very small majority.

My prediction is that same-sex unions will be legalized in Thailand in the next five years. I also predict that transgender people will be able to legally change their gender on ID documents.

You are correct 100% of the Thai gay men that I know are from wealthy Thai-Chinese families. So that is where my opinion comes from.

Then before you generalize, maybe you should expand the scope of your personal contacts beyond the maybe .5% of the population (if that) which might be considered "wealthy Thai-Chinese families".

You are of course correct that 5% has very little to do with what happens in Thai politics.

[Richard4849]

That's .5% not 5%...at most.

[sabye]

Homosexuality is natural. Watch other animals and you will see that it exists in all other species. Also many species are hermaphrodites so saying that heterosexuality should be the only way that creatures are in this world is rather uninformed. Humans are just another species in the billions of species that have come and gone throughout history. Being heterosexual may be more "normal" but it is not the only way. We are not all created the same and when someone is a bit different we should learn to accept that. If people are gay and want to spend their lives together then they should be able to announce to the world their love and devotion to each other. Why should it bother you what they do behind closed doors. I have had many gay people work for me over the years and they do not offend me or most of my clients. Many of them are far better workers and more creative than non-gays. Let them live their lives the way they feel comfortable and they will be productive members of our society. For those of them that wish to marry then they should be able to legally do so.

[Nawtier]

My wife has a gay friend...she is very modern like that.

Last week he called her crying on the phone about his boyfriend having an affair.........crying so much she said.

Really should man up a bit........crying like that is just sad really.

[Richard4849]

LOL...and I have some gay friends who could kick your "manly" ass into a sad mess.

[KKK]

If God had wanted man to sleep with woman he'd have given women cocks.

An approx quote from the character Jack in an episode of Will & Grace

[scottyd]

This thread makes me sad.

[Forethat]

If God had wanted man to sleep with woman he'd have given women cocks.

An approx quote from the character Jack in an episode of Will & Grace

This one eludes me...

I thought the point was God WANTED man to sleep with women, but he arranged the equipment in the opposite order...yes?

[Nawtier]

LOL...and I have some gay friends who could kick your "manly" ass into a sad mess.

My 13yo daughter won a gold medal in TKD couple weeks ago......I'd like to see them try.

[Richard4849]

LOL...and I have some gay friends who could kick your "manly" ass into a sad mess.

My 13yo daughter won a gold medal in TKD couple weeks ago......I'd like to see them try.

I wasn't talking about your daughter...I was talking about you. Since you fancy yourself as so "manly" and gays as so "girly", that is.

[Forethat]

LOL...and I have some gay friends who could kick your "manly" ass into a sad mess.

My 13yo daughter won a gold medal in TKD couple weeks ago......I'd like to see them try.

I wasn't talking about your daughter...I was talking about you. Since you fancy yourself as so "manly" and gays as so "girly", that is.

So you're telling me I wasn't to far off when I concluded that there are a couple (no pun intended) of posters on here who are running out of arguments...?

[Richard4849]

No, I'm not telling you that at all. I'm just making fun of your meaningless story about a gay guy who cried when his boyfriend had an affair, which seemed to indicate that you are a "manly man" and they are "girly men". I apologize if I misunderstood.

[trisailer]

You guys are completely missing the point. Equal rights are not determined by popularity, at least they shouldn't be. This is a civil rights issue where one group of people are being discriminated against because of their sexual orientation. Constitutions are there for a reason; to protect citizens from this kind of discrimination.

As I said, the vast majority of Americans who reply to polls asking if they support gay marriage say yes at above 70%. When it is put to a vote a different result is produced because the church spends millions to spread lies and create fear. Go back and read some of the church campaign lies and you'll see what I mean.

One of the lies (in the Maine referendum) was that grade school teachers would be required to teach children "the gay lifestyle" it was the single most important reason that the referendum was defeated (53%) The church will stop at nothing to try to control the lives of people who don't even believe in their myths. The manager of the Maine church campaigned was interviewed after the vote and he said he was ashamed at the level of lies and deception spread. People respond to fear. Politicians know that and that is why it is an effective tool to manipulate people's votes.

[Forethat]

No, I'm not telling you that at all. I'm just making fun of your meaningless story about a gay guy who cried when his boyfriend had an affair, which seemed to indicate that you are a "manly man" and they are "girly men". I apologize if I misunderstood.

OK, then I misunderstood you completely; I thought you just posted an argument in which you claimed to have gay friends who could kick someone's ass - you know the old kindergarten-my-dad is-stronger-than-yours-and-can-kick-his-ass-argument?

Sorry to have made such a mistake, it will not happen again.

My bad.

[anterian]

whilst homosexual behaviour can be found amongst most species of animals, it is never exclusive, the animal will also behave heterosexually when it has the opportunity. this is logical, a homosexual species would simply cease to exist. thus whilst Nature does not frown on homosexuality, neither does it encourage it.

The exception is when a species starts to outstrip its resources and living space, in crowded conditions many animals adopt homosexual behaviour. Homosexuality is a warning flag.

[Forethat]

Just change the scenery from a burger joint to TV and then you can pretty much figure out who's who....

[jdinasia]

whilst homosexual behaviour can be found amongst most species of animals, it is never exclusive, the animal will also behave heterosexually when it has the opportunity. this is logical, a homosexual species would simply cease to exist. thus whilst Nature does not frown on homosexuality, neither does it encourage it.

The exception is when a species starts to outstrip its resources and living space, in crowded conditions many animals adopt homosexual behaviour. Homosexuality is a warning flag.

Not at all accurate, as some animals in many species exhibit homosexual bonding as a pattern. This means that some (on a percentage basis --- I am not sure how many -- you are free to do the research starting here, using the footnotes http://en.wikipedia....sexual_behavior )

While true that any species that exhibits solely homosexuality is destined to die off in a generation or so .... there is no biological imperative for all of a species to reproduce in a successful species. Darwinism would suggest that by not passing on its genes a male or female would be a biological failure. Some species that create external (pheromones etc) may cause otherwise homosexual members of the species to act differently.

The observational bias present in researchers until recently may account for a lack of knowledge on the subject, but plenty of research has been done since 1990 (20+ years) to show the fallacy of Anterian's argument -----

That being said --- this topic isn't about animals outside of homosapiens

edit --- added link from one of the footnotes ---

http://www.nhm.uio.no/besokende/skiftende-utstillinger/againstnature/index-eng.html This is in English

Edited June 6, 2011 by jdinasia

[anterian]

whilst homosexual behaviour can be found amongst most species of animals, it is never exclusive, the animal will also behave heterosexually when it has the opportunity. this is logical, a homosexual species would simply cease to exist. thus whilst Nature does not frown on homosexuality, neither does it encourage it.

The exception is when a species starts to outstrip its resources and living space, in crowded conditions many animals adopt homosexual behaviour. Homosexuality is a warning flag.

Not at all accurate, as some animals in many species exhibit homosexual bonding as a pattern. This means that some (on a percentage basis --- I am not sure how many -- you are free to do the research starting here, using the footnotes http://en.wikipedia....sexual_behavior )

While true that any species that exhibits solely homosexuality is destined to die off in a generation or so .... there is no biological imperative for all of a species to reproduce in a successful species. Darwinism would suggest that by not passing on its genes a male or female would be a biological failure. Some species that create external (pheromones etc) may cause otherwise homosexual members of the species to act differently.

The observational bias present in researchers until recently may account for a lack of knowledge on the subject, but plenty of research has been done since 1990 (20+ years) to show the fallacy of Anterian's argument -----

That being said --- this topic isn't about animals outside of homosapiens

edit --- added link from one of the footnotes ---

http://www.nhm.uio.n.../index-eng.html This is in English

Not at all accurate.... most generalised statements are such

As you pointed out at the end, this is not the thread topic so I left if both brief and general.

I note that you did not mention homosexual behaviour as a display of dominance in many communal/social animals.Also found with humans, read the recent report on homosexual behaviour in the Russian military

Pheromones versus genes and hormones, an interesting concept

[jdinasia]

Sorry Anterian --- I should have pointed out the exact inaccuracy.

it is never exclusive

That is simply wrong.

Ahain this thread is about 1 species --- homosapiens

[Sateev]

I think that domestic partnership should be available to both heterosexual, as well as gay couples, since marriage is, to me, a primarily religious term.

Should gay couples be allowed to marry? If a church will sanction that marriage, then yes, they should.

Further, no couple should be denied ANY rights under law, and all constructs, such as the "Marriage Visa", should be amended to be non-specific regarding genders, and extended to domestic partnerships of any type.

Let's get the state and the deities out of this, and live and let live.

[Richard4849]

The "church" (temple) in Thailand already performs same-sex marriages. It has forever.

But religious marriages in Thailand have no legal status here, whether for straights or gays. Only going down to the amphur and registering a civil union makes it legal -- and this is not yet open to same-sex couples.