A Farang Living In Thailand

[JPPR2]

I agree GrebB, excellent contribution to the forum.Thanks

[Trembly]

With all due respect, GregB's post is an excellent example of integration-inhibiting-polarization.

A grey looking picture made up of black and white pixels rather than analogous grey shades.

I can't say any more or I'll blunt Father Occam's razor.

[Forethat]

I don't think anyone is surprised over the fact that he speaks multiple languages, but the speed at which he went from being bilingual to trilingual to multilingual was nothing short of impressive. Good old Eirik spent 6 years to master Thai 100% but your gardener picked up 2 languages in a matter of weeks...even yourself lost count of how many languages he spoke.

it is non of my interest to enquire which languages members of our staff speak if neither my wife nor me are able to use them.

besides, it would be utmost silly to ask a gardener, hired in Thailand to take care of a garden in Thailand, whether he speaks German, French, Spanish, Portuguese or Italian.

having been hired initially as a gardener only his knowledge of english was important. we found out his language skills at a much later stage when he married our maid, joined her as a live-in and is now doing more inside than outside work. for what it's worth, the final count of his languages is 5 (five), two of them mother tongues, one is passable English.

next!

You spent almost a year coming up with an explanation and this is where you end up at?

[Naam]

You spent almost a year coming up with an explanation and this is where you end up at?

people who can't afford a gardener won't understand any explanation

[notime]

Feeling "part of it" or not? Integrate or not to integrate? Is Farang too culturally different to understand Thailand and vice versa? Let me give you a "fresh angle".

GrebB wrote well and in-depth but from the perspective of a thinking and educated Farang who still, somehow cares. But what is the Thai perspective on the enlightened Farang?

I have recently came across a thought that came out of the mind of a Thai guy who seemed to be nice and helpful to me for years and one day declared that he had no choice but to kill me if I didn't give him substantial amount of money. He explained that the time has come "to kill the bull". He meant farmers must kill their animals even that they don't really enjoy doing so. That made me understand how many Thais see foreigners here, through their "farmer's mentality" - we are their animals. We are being milked from our money day by day and when the time comes we may go to slaughter.

Now, I'm thinking about that "farmer's mentality" more in my own approach to doing things here. I'm sorry I don't "feel part of it" as a human any more. If I did before is was a delusion coming from culturally different perspective. And the way the things are going for me recently make me actually quite worried that my body may be found next in the lake or some other place soon. So I hope many of you who may be bulls or cows on someone's paddock will start to understand this "fresh angle" now and take precautions. Sorry if I'm a bit scary

[Forethat]

You spent almost a year coming up with an explanation and this is where you end up at?

people who can't afford a gardener won't understand any explanation

I am trying to learn and understand. Maybe you can help me understand the word "braggard" as well..? I landed on "narcissistic" and "personality disorder".

http://thesaurus.com/browse/egomaniac

[Beetlejuice]

Then later on the company I worked for began hiring a few blacks. We used to jokingly call them the token blacks just to make it seem that the company was doing it`s bit for race relations.

But after working with them for only 1 year, they began to integrate with us extremely well and although this may sound stupid, we actually did not see them as blacks anymore, but rather as workmates on an equal basis and as part of the team.

This is where multicultural relations start to become interesting, and is something I have reflected on at length, so forgive the long post. You see, at work it is easy to integrate and become office friends. You work in the same shared environment, are expected to conform to the same rules and hierarchy, and generally interact in a known and common manner. I think the same is true of most farangs who work in a Thai office. They get along beautifully at work.

But now, let us take your experience a bit further. Assume your black colleagues were from a native African culture and practiced extremely "foreign" (from your perspective) cultural rituals at home. Is the average white guy going to be falling all over himself to become that black coworker's best friend outside the office? Most likely, no. Some people will of course. There are people who truly enjoy diversity and new cultural experiences. But for the most part, where you share a common environment, friendships are possible. When you leave the confines of that environment for the wider world, people simply stay with their own with whom they feel the most comfortable.

Farangs in Thailand are known to be confrontational, which is a trait Thais try to avoid at all costs. While many of them even learn to accept this in the office, at home they enjoy the comfort of their traditional upbringing. And it is very, very difficult for Westerners to shake off their own cultural proclivities. I have been here well over a decade, and I still find it very difficult to refrain from calling a spade a spade when I see it, and to swallow my immediate reactions and learn the art of subtle influence the way the Thais seem to do without effort. They have an innate sense of when a lie is appropriate, and how to interpret it when another person is obviously lying to them. I just don't have that capability. I tend to favor honesty. That is not something that endears me to the local population.

Westerners are all products of the Enlightenment. We can blame the French for that. Even if we don't recognize it, we are all subtly influenced by that belief that we should strive to transcend our ignorance and embrace diversity. We don't actually do it of course, but our mannerisms consider things that strive for that ideal to be good, and practices that ignore this moral imperative to be somehow unjust. Thais most spectacularly do not have this same guiding principle as a part of their culture. After more than a decade I can't really boil down what it is that drives them, but whatever it is, that principle is what allows them to accept the existing social structure based on patronage, that corruption is not the evil we think it is, and for many, the idea that money, no matter the manner it was obtained, is always a good. Not everyone assumes the latter of course, but enough of the population have this belief that some generalizations can clearly be made.

What this all means is that you need to recognize where your cultural boundaries are when living in Thailand. It may be possible to integrate completely with Thais, but in doing so, you will necessarily abandon a part of yourself that allows you to feel comfortable in your birth country. That may take decades, and is certainly much easier done when you are young. So those people who are retired, and thus have hours of free time to spend commenting on this board, will probably never be able to be accepted into Thai culture. That means we need to expect a bias on this board. Even if you understand the language, the roots of the culture are extremely foreign.

Farangs can be partially accepted in Thailand. Mostly in the work place. It is difficult to be accepted into the wider fabric of society though. It doesn't mean that Thais are xenophobic, as I so often see people say. Indeed, cultures that are closer to their own are readily accepted. I know many, many Chinese who learn Thai fluently and seem to integrate much better than Westerners. I know a Korean who has been here 30 years who even the Thais think is a just a Thai with some foreign lineage they can't quite place. So it is possible for foreigners. Farangs are just too different though. Much like ethnic African blacks in the US, and in a country that doesn't hold diversity as a moral good.

For myself though, I am willing to accept this, and hope my children can learn the Thai values well enough to be accepted. As the age of European imperialism draws to a close, Asia looks to be the new dominant global player in its ascendancy. I want my children to be a bridge between the old world and the new one. At home to the maximum extent possible in either hemisphere. That is probably the major reason I call Thailand home, even if I know my thoughts are just too alien to ever really be Thai.

Your post makes a refreshing read. You are definitely someone I could listen to and give a 10 out of 10 for credibility and common sense.

Please let me tell you about an experience I had last year.

A cousin that I had in the past been very close with from the United States who I hadn’t seen for 12 years, his wife, 14 year old son and 16 year old daughter were visiting Chiang Mai and wanted to meet me.

We met at a restaurant in the town and decided to make an evening of it.

During our time together I noticed that my cousin and each member of his family were constantly using their mobile phones. Phoning to family and friends in the States mostly, even cutting our conversation short because they’re addiction with the mobile phones were too great. Then we walked around the night bazaar. Suddenly my cousin’s wife began screaming; where’s my daughter! Where’s my daughter!. The daughter was only a few a metres away browsing at some watches on a stall. My cousin’s wife believed that Thailand is a backward country and the natives would snatch her daughter away at the first possible opportunity.

Then a moth flew close to the daughter and she also began screaming. My cousin and his wife wanted to go on somewhere else, but the kids were keen to return to their hotel, go on the computer and talk to all their friends on facebook. So the parents, believing that no way could they let their children walk unaccompanied in such a dangerous and primitive country like Thailand, conceded to the wishes of their children, went back to the hotel and that was the end of our evening out.

I found these people extremely irritating and began to realise how far removed I have become from my Western culture, past family and friends. In fact, I am an in-between person. Not a true part of Thai society and neither would I ever be able to fit again into the mainstream way of life back in my own country? I think if I did go back, the affects of reverse culture shock would be immense and I would probably have to return to good old Thailand.

I do get home sick sometimes. But I think I am missing how things used to be, the good old days. I’m sure if I were to return now everything would appear alien to me and I would hate it there.

So I do regard myself as being extremely fortunate having secured a future for my family and I in Thailand, even with all the restrictions and BS laid upon us.

[IanForbes]

Very interesting story, Beetlejuice, I can believe you. Society HAS changed a lot in recent years. However, teenagers are like that. They are more in tune with their friends than the world around them. On'y a small percentage actually take an interest in the outside world. And, the computer-cel phone connection even makes it worse. How many kids today sit on a computer playing make believe games. Once upon a time they were outside using their imagination and playing until dark. Parents today are over protective because of all the horror stories they hear on the news, but in real like happen infrequently.

[Forethat]

During our time together I noticed that my cousin and each member of his family were constantly using their mobile phones. Phoning to family and friends in the States mostly, even cutting our conversation short because they're addiction with the mobile phones were too great.

Beetlejuice, what you describe above is generally thought of by Farangs as the biggest nuisance in an office environment. In any business meeting with Thais envolved, every single one of them will chat on the phone at least once. Yes, during the meeting while others are trying to have some sort of meaningful conversation, and yes, several of them at the same time.

[JPPR2]

<br />

<br />During our time together I noticed that my cousin and each member of his family were constantly using their mobile phones. Phoning to family and friends in the States mostly, even cutting our conversation short because they're addiction with the mobile phones were too great.

<br /><br />Beetlejuice, what you describe above is generally thought of by Farangs as the biggest nuisance in an office environment. In any business meeting with Thais envolved, every single one of them will chat on the phone at least once. Yes, during the meeting while others are trying to have some sort of meaningful conversation, and yes, several of them at the same time.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

Off tangent to the OP

^ This behavior with cell phones is global. Not just here. Maybe foreigners will not answer their phones but they will sit and text, message and answer emails. In fact most foreigner business men find a meeting a time to catch up on such activities.

[Hermes100]

This is a complex issue.

Thailand is very complex. It is made more so when one consider's that thailand has no real culture.

And how amended history is and the general education that teaches its people " non thinking".

That so many here are really not comfatable in their own skin( hence thailand is the world largest user of skin whitening product's) and try to emulate those that at other time's they might think negitvely toward's.

All this lead's to a bit of a messy situation that result's in these banal attitude's/practice's,etc.

We will not see much of an improvement until thai's are able to put the face/national pride nonsense issue to one side and show that they are indeed able to step out of the 3rd world status.

Many have and I do see great improvement's

[Hermes100]

Then later on the company I worked for began hiring a few blacks. We used to jokingly call them the token blacks just to make it seem that the company was doing it`s bit for race relations.

But after working with them for only 1 year, they began to integrate with us extremely well and although this may sound stupid, we actually did not see them as blacks anymore, but rather as workmates on an equal basis and as part of the team.

This is where multicultural relations start to become interesting, and is something I have reflected on at length, so forgive the long post. You see, at work it is easy to integrate and become office friends. You work in the same shared environment, are expected to conform to the same rules and hierarchy, and generally interact in a known and common manner. I think the same is true of most farangs who work in a Thai office. They get along beautifully at work.

But now, let us take your experience a bit further. Assume your black colleagues were from a native African culture and practiced extremely "foreign" (from your perspective) cultural rituals at home. Is the average white guy going to be falling all over himself to become that black coworker's best friend outside the office? Most likely, no. Some people will of course. There are people who truly enjoy diversity and new cultural experiences. But for the most part, where you share a common environment, friendships are possible. When you leave the confines of that environment for the wider world, people simply stay with their own with whom they feel the most comfortable.

Farangs in Thailand are known to be confrontational, which is a trait Thais try to avoid at all costs. While many of them even learn to accept this in the office, at home they enjoy the comfort of their traditional upbringing. And it is very, very difficult for Westerners to shake off their own cultural proclivities. I have been here well over a decade, and I still find it very difficult to refrain from calling a spade a spade when I see it, and to swallow my immediate reactions and learn the art of subtle influence the way the Thais seem to do without effort. They have an innate sense of when a lie is appropriate, and how to interpret it when another person is obviously lying to them. I just don't have that capability. I tend to favor honesty. That is not something that endears me to the local population.

Westerners are all products of the Enlightenment. We can blame the French for that. Even if we don't recognize it, we are all subtly influenced by that belief that we should strive to transcend our ignorance and embrace diversity. We don't actually do it of course, but our mannerisms consider things that strive for that ideal to be good, and practices that ignore this moral imperative to be somehow unjust. Thais most spectacularly do not have this same guiding principle as a part of their culture. After more than a decade I can't really boil down what it is that drives them, but whatever it is, that principle is what allows them to accept the existing social structure based on patronage, that corruption is not the evil we think it is, and for many, the idea that money, no matter the manner it was obtained, is always a good. Not everyone assumes the latter of course, but enough of the population have this belief that some generalizations can clearly be made.

What this all means is that you need to recognize where your cultural boundaries are when living in Thailand. It may be possible to integrate completely with Thais, but in doing so, you will necessarily abandon a part of yourself that allows you to feel comfortable in your birth country. That may take decades, and is certainly much easier done when you are young. So those people who are retired, and thus have hours of free time to spend commenting on this board, will probably never be able to be accepted into Thai culture. That means we need to expect a bias on this board. Even if you understand the language, the roots of the culture are extremely foreign.

Farangs can be partially accepted in Thailand. Mostly in the work place. It is difficult to be accepted into the wider fabric of society though. It doesn't mean that Thais are xenophobic, as I so often see people say. Indeed, cultures that are closer to their own are readily accepted. I know many, many Chinese who learn Thai fluently and seem to integrate much better than Westerners. I know a Korean who has been here 30 years who even the Thais think is a just a Thai with some foreign lineage they can't quite place. So it is possible for foreigners. Farangs are just too different though. Much like ethnic African blacks in the US, and in a country that doesn't hold diversity as a moral good.

For myself though, I am willing to accept this, and hope my children can learn the Thai values well enough to be accepted. As the age of European imperialism draws to a close, Asia looks to be the new dominant global player in its ascendancy. I want my children to be a bridge between the old world and the new one. At home to the maximum extent possible in either hemisphere. That is probably the major reason I call Thailand home, even if I know my thoughts are just too alien to ever really be Thai.

Exellent post.

[F1fanatic]

Then later on the company I worked for began hiring a few blacks. We used to jokingly call them the token blacks just to make it seem that the company was doing it`s bit for race relations.

But after working with them for only 1 year, they began to integrate with us extremely well and although this may sound stupid, we actually did not see them as blacks anymore, but rather as workmates on an equal basis and as part of the team.

This is where multicultural relations start to become interesting, and is something I have reflected on at length, so forgive the long post. You see, at work it is easy to integrate and become office friends. You work in the same shared environment, are expected to conform to the same rules and hierarchy, and generally interact in a known and common manner. I think the same is true of most farangs who work in a Thai office. They get along beautifully at work.

But now, let us take your experience a bit further. Assume your black colleagues were from a native African culture and practiced extremely "foreign" (from your perspective) cultural rituals at home. Is the average white guy going to be falling all over himself to become that black coworker's best friend outside the office? Most likely, no. Some people will of course. There are people who truly enjoy diversity and new cultural experiences. But for the most part, where you share a common environment, friendships are possible. When you leave the confines of that environment for the wider world, people simply stay with their own with whom they feel the most comfortable.

Farangs in Thailand are known to be confrontational, which is a trait Thais try to avoid at all costs. While many of them even learn to accept this in the office, at home they enjoy the comfort of their traditional upbringing. And it is very, very difficult for Westerners to shake off their own cultural proclivities. I have been here well over a decade, and I still find it very difficult to refrain from calling a spade a spade when I see it, and to swallow my immediate reactions and learn the art of subtle influence the way the Thais seem to do without effort. They have an innate sense of when a lie is appropriate, and how to interpret it when another person is obviously lying to them. I just don't have that capability. I tend to favor honesty. That is not something that endears me to the local population.

Westerners are all products of the Enlightenment. We can blame the French for that. Even if we don't recognize it, we are all subtly influenced by that belief that we should strive to transcend our ignorance and embrace diversity. We don't actually do it of course, but our mannerisms consider things that strive for that ideal to be good, and practices that ignore this moral imperative to be somehow unjust. Thais most spectacularly do not have this same guiding principle as a part of their culture. After more than a decade I can't really boil down what it is that drives them, but whatever it is, that principle is what allows them to accept the existing social structure based on patronage, that corruption is not the evil we think it is, and for many, the idea that money, no matter the manner it was obtained, is always a good. Not everyone assumes the latter of course, but enough of the population have this belief that some generalizations can clearly be made.

What this all means is that you need to recognize where your cultural boundaries are when living in Thailand. It may be possible to integrate completely with Thais, but in doing so, you will necessarily abandon a part of yourself that allows you to feel comfortable in your birth country. That may take decades, and is certainly much easier done when you are young. So those people who are retired, and thus have hours of free time to spend commenting on this board, will probably never be able to be accepted into Thai culture. That means we need to expect a bias on this board. Even if you understand the language, the roots of the culture are extremely foreign.

Farangs can be partially accepted in Thailand. Mostly in the work place. It is difficult to be accepted into the wider fabric of society though. It doesn't mean that Thais are xenophobic, as I so often see people say. Indeed, cultures that are closer to their own are readily accepted. I know many, many Chinese who learn Thai fluently and seem to integrate much better than Westerners. I know a Korean who has been here 30 years who even the Thais think is a just a Thai with some foreign lineage they can't quite place. So it is possible for foreigners. Farangs are just too different though. Much like ethnic African blacks in the US, and in a country that doesn't hold diversity as a moral good.

For myself though, I am willing to accept this, and hope my children can learn the Thai values well enough to be accepted. As the age of European imperialism draws to a close, Asia looks to be the new dominant global player in its ascendancy. I want my children to be a bridge between the old world and the new one. At home to the maximum extent possible in either hemisphere. That is probably the major reason I call Thailand home, even if I know my thoughts are just too alien to ever really be Thai.

Your post makes a refreshing read. You are definitely someone I could listen to and give a 10 out of 10 for credibility and common sense.

Please let me tell you about an experience I had last year.

A cousin that I had in the past been very close with from the United States who I hadn't seen for 12 years, his wife, 14 year old son and 16 year old daughter were visiting Chiang Mai and wanted to meet me.

We met at a restaurant in the town and decided to make an evening of it.

During our time together I noticed that my cousin and each member of his family were constantly using their mobile phones. Phoning to family and friends in the States mostly, even cutting our conversation short because they're addiction with the mobile phones were too great. Then we walked around the night bazaar. Suddenly my cousin's wife began screaming; where's my daughter! Where's my daughter!. The daughter was only a few a metres away browsing at some watches on a stall. My cousin's wife believed that Thailand is a backward country and the natives would snatch her daughter away at the first possible opportunity.

Then a moth flew close to the daughter and she also began screaming. My cousin and his wife wanted to go on somewhere else, but the kids were keen to return to their hotel, go on the computer and talk to all their friends on facebook. So the parents, believing that no way could they let their children walk unaccompanied in such a dangerous and primitive country like Thailand, conceded to the wishes of their children, went back to the hotel and that was the end of our evening out.

I found these people extremely irritating and began to realise how far removed I have become from my Western culture, past family and friends. In fact, I am an in-between person. Not a true part of Thai society and neither would I ever be able to fit again into the mainstream way of life back in my own country? I think if I did go back, the affects of reverse culture shock would be immense and I would probably have to return to good old Thailand.

I do get home sick sometimes. But I think I am missing how things used to be, the good old days. I'm sure if I were to return now everything would appear alien to me and I would hate it there.

So I do regard myself as being extremely fortunate having secured a future for my family and I in Thailand, even with all the restrictions and BS laid upon us.

I have to agree that all teenagers (and many in their 20's) are FAR too wedded to their mobile 'phones.

If you think the Thais are different in this respect - you're really losing the plot....

[trisailer]

The cell phone thing is global just as the human behavior of groups is global.

There are a handful of personality differences within human populations. I saw them in the US and I see them here. Everyone that I meet here is someone that I have met in my home town.

The culture here is not as PC or as controlled, but Thai's are essentially the same. If I give change to a young clerk and then pull coins out of my pocket to make the change different from what the computer has calculated, a clerk here will do the exact same thing as a clerk in the US will do. If I am dealing with an experienced clerk that has confidence than it doesn't happen.

If I moved to NYC, would I feel a part of it? No. Would I want to? No. I grew up in the largest city in Maine. The population was 100,000. When I went into the Army I had to establish who I was in the pecking order on my own. Any respect I gained was of my own making. After the Army I settled in a small town further north. The town had 400 people, most were farmers and blue collar workers. It was as though I came from the moon. I was never accepted because I wasn't born there, but I got along fine because I respected the differences and so did they.

I bought a boat, my first trimaran, from a famous sailor/builder and the boat needed a lot of work, painting and such. I was doing most of the work myself at this guy's boatyard. He had 7 employees who were building a new 56' cat. I wanted so bad to be accepted and respected by these people because they all had racing and boat building history's that impressed me greatly. They were polite enough, but I was not "one of them" after a few months of working on my boat at that shop and them checking me out they called me over for coffee break for the first time. You would have thought I won the Nobel prize I was so proud to be included. Coffee break was when they told stories of their adventures and only respected sailors were ever invited. After that I was asked each and every time. I kept my mouth shut and listened to the stories. After a time I was invited to share some of my own and eventually I became part of the group. That group dynamic exists everywhere.

The point is that every human group is wary of outsiders even within there own racial group. I just finished reading "Siamese Memoirs" (a great book BTW) it's about a Thai lady who is a descendant of the royal family, but who grew up in London with the family of King Prajadhipok who abdicated the throne in 1934. Her name was, Pimsai Svasti and she returned to Thailand in 1951. She had a huge extended family in Thailand who had remained there while she was overseas. She had gone to England when she was 7 and when she came back she could hardly speak Thai. The book describes how she struggled for acceptance for the rest of her life (which was violently cut short) She never felt accepted by her own culture because of the mannerisms that that she had picked up.

This is a human thing and I think that each persons individual experience with living here is going to be different depending on their particular personality and the personality of the person that they are interacting with. I know farang here who want to be accepted by the Thai's, but maybe they try too hard because they are invariably disrespected. I, on the other hand could care less if the people here respect me and I never have a problem.

I worked for years as a consultant (guy from out of town with a briefcase) in paper mills around the country. My job was to make these mills more efficient. Well right from the get go I was rejected and I came to expect it. "who does this guy think he is" was the usual attitude and I learned to be very careful about how I went about it. I watched a lot of inexperienced guys fall flat on their faces because they didn't know how to integrate themselves into a new group. People want to "check you out" and "see what you are about" before they will accept you.

Thailand is no different than any other group. The people here respect the same things that other people in the west respect. Some guys misunderstand this.

[metisdead]

A post and a reply to it have been removed as they contained degrading and derogatory comments directed at Thais.

[F1fanatic]

The cell phone thing is global just as the human behavior of groups is global.

There are a handful of personality differences within human populations. I saw them in the US and I see them here. Everyone that I meet here is someone that I have met in my home town.

The culture here is not as PC or as controlled, but Thai's are essentially the same. If I give change to a young clerk and then pull coins out of my pocket to make the change different from what the computer has calculated, a clerk here will do the exact same thing as a clerk in the US will do. If I am dealing with an experienced clerk that has confidence than it doesn't happen.

If I moved to NYC, would I feel a part of it? No. Would I want to? No. I grew up in the largest city in Maine. The population was 100,000. When I went into the Army I had to establish who I was in the pecking order on my own. Any respect I gained was of my own making. After the Army I settled in a small town further north. The town had 400 people, most were farmers and blue collar workers. It was as though I came from the moon. I was never accepted because I wasn't born there, but I got along fine because I respected the differences and so did they.

I bought a boat, my first trimaran, from a famous sailor/builder and the boat needed a lot of work, painting and such. I was doing most of the work myself at this guy's boatyard. He had 7 employees who were building a new 56' cat. I wanted so bad to be accepted and respected by these people because they all had racing and boat building history's that impressed me greatly. They were polite enough, but I was not "one of them" after a few months of working on my boat at that shop and them checking me out they called me over for coffee break for the first time. You would have thought I won the Nobel prize I was so proud to be included. Coffee break was when they told stories of their adventures and only respected sailors were ever invited. After that I was asked each and every time. I kept my mouth shut and listened to the stories. After a time I was invited to share some of my own and eventually I became part of the group. That group dynamic exists everywhere.

The point is that every human group is wary of outsiders even within there own racial group. I just finished reading "Siamese Memoirs" (a great book BTW) it's about a Thai lady who is a descendant of the royal family, but who grew up in London with the family of King Prajadhipok who abdicated the throne in 1934. Her name was, Pimsai Svasti and she returned to Thailand in 1951. She had a huge extended family in Thailand who had remained there while she was overseas. She had gone to England when she was 7 and when she came back she could hardly speak Thai. The book describes how she struggled for acceptance for the rest of her life (which was violently cut short) She never felt accepted by her own culture because of the mannerisms that that she had picked up.

This is a human thing and I think that each persons individual experience with living here is going to be different depending on their particular personality and the personality of the person that they are interacting with. I know farang here who want to be accepted by the Thai's, but maybe they try too hard because they are invariably disrespected. I, on the other hand could care less if the people here respect me and I never have a problem.

I worked for years as a consultant (guy from out of town with a briefcase) in paper mills around the country. My job was to make these mills more efficient. Well right from the get go I was rejected and I came to expect it. "who does this guy think he is" was the usual attitude and I learned to be very careful about how I went about it. I watched a lot of inexperienced guys fall flat on their faces because they didn't know how to integrate themselves into a new group. People want to "check you out" and "see what you are about" before they will accept you.

Thailand is no different than any other group. The people here respect the same things that other people in the west respect. Some guys misunderstand this.

So you think there are no 'cultural' differences?

[jaideeguy]

The Thais have so many faces that it's easy to be fooled into thinking that they do appreciate our presence and contributions, but after a few years [12 in my case], I can't help realizing that they just tolerate us for our $$ and when the $$ are gone, we're gone too.....bye bye falang.

[trisailer]

So you think there are no 'cultural' differences?

I think there are cultural differences, but they have more to do with the level of development the country is at. It appears to me that Thailand is where the US was 50 years ago in terms of corruption, safety, politeness, and social skills. One of the things that annoy me is the driving. It seems like few people understand the rules of the road. It drives me crazy when a pickup waits at a U-turn until there is no traffic because he wants to go all the way over to the left. The proper way is to stay in the speed up lane and then merge over. The reason, as my wife explains is that there are so many new drivers and drivers from the country where rules are not a necessary. So, I guess that is a cultural thing.

Clearly there is a language issue. When someone start rattling of in Thai to me my brain freezes up and theirs do the same. That's human.

As far as much of the stuff that gets mentioned here (lying, cheating, and overall corruption) I don't think that is cultural thing.

I think it has more to do with the individual character of the person involved. I've run across my share of lier's and cheats in the west. If you come across as an easy mark, which a lot of people do here because they feel safe your probably going to get ripped off. So far most of the people that I am aware of being ripped off here has been by other farangs.

Obviously I am excluding bar girls and other people of lower character. Guys do things here that they would never think of doing if they went into the average housing project or trailor park in their home country. Nobody gets taken unless they let it happen. I see people fall for the most obvious scams because of greed. Millions of dollars are lost every year by the same old tired Nigerian scam.

The cultural differences are more about the food they eat and the clothes they wear and the music. I never hear people complaining about those things.

[JemJem]

In the end, one just has to 'weigh his/her options'. Would you be better off/happier living in Thailand or in your home country (or in any other country that you have a chance of settling down in)?

Jem

[Trembly]

So you think there are no 'cultural' differences?

I think there are cultural differences, but they have more to do with the level of development the country is at. It appears to me that Thailand is where the US was 50 years ago in terms of corruption, safety, politeness, and social skills. One of the things that annoy me is the driving. It seems like few people understand the rules of the road. It drives me crazy when a pickup waits at a U-turn until there is no traffic because he wants to go all the way over to the left. The proper way is to stay in the speed up lane and then merge over. The reason, as my wife explains is that there are so many new drivers and drivers from the country where rules are not a necessary. So, I guess that is a cultural thing.

Clearly there is a language issue. When someone start rattling of in Thai to me my brain freezes up and theirs do the same. That's human.

As far as much of the stuff that gets mentioned here (lying, cheating, and overall corruption) I don't think that is cultural thing.

I think it has more to do with the individual character of the person involved. I've run across my share of lier's and cheats in the west. If you come across as an easy mark, which a lot of people do here because they feel safe your probably going to get ripped off. So far most of the people that I am aware of being ripped off here has been by other farangs.

Obviously I am excluding bar girls and other people of lower character. Guys do things here that they would never think of doing if they went into the average housing project or trailor park in their home country. Nobody gets taken unless they let it happen. I see people fall for the most obvious scams because of greed. Millions of dollars are lost every year by the same old tired Nigerian scam.

The cultural differences are more about the food they eat and the clothes they wear and the music. I never hear people complaining about those things.

Well said.

[jdinasia]

The Thais have so many faces that it's easy to be fooled into thinking that they do appreciate our presence and contributions, but after a few years [12 in my case], I can't help realizing that they just tolerate us for our $$ and when the $$ are gone, we're gone too.....bye bye falang.

I have known people that would say EXACTLY the same thing about friends from "back home." Then again, here in Thailand, the majority of my Thai friends are friends that choose to be friends. No ulterior motive and very honest and generous. I would say the the official government position is exactly how you describe, then again it is the same as most governments around the world in that respect.

[metisdead]

Antagonistic baiting and insulting posts have been removed.

[IanForbes]

Antagonistic baiting and insulting posts have been removed.

That is the one thing that ruins an otherwise good discussion like this one. Trisailor brought up some very valid points that make sense and should be considered before spouting off how bad some people are.

[Awohalitsiktoli]

So you think there are no 'cultural' differences?

I think there are cultural differences, but they have more to do with the level of development the country is at. It appears to me that Thailand is where the US was 50 years ago in terms of corruption, safety, politeness, and social skills. One of the things that annoy me is the driving. It seems like few people understand the rules of the road. It drives me crazy when a pickup waits at a U-turn until there is no traffic because he wants to go all the way over to the left. The proper way is to stay in the speed up lane and then merge over. The reason, as my wife explains is that there are so many new drivers and drivers from the country where rules are not a necessary. So, I guess that is a cultural thing.

Clearly there is a language issue. When someone start rattling of in Thai to me my brain freezes up and theirs do the same. That's human.

As far as much of the stuff that gets mentioned here (lying, cheating, and overall corruption) I don't think that is cultural thing.

I think it has more to do with the individual character of the person involved. I've run across my share of lier's and cheats in the west. If you come across as an easy mark, which a lot of people do here because they feel safe your probably going to get ripped off. So far most of the people that I am aware of being ripped off here has been by other farangs.

Obviously I am excluding bar girls and other people of lower character. Guys do things here that they would never think of doing if they went into the average housing project or trailor park in their home country. Nobody gets taken unless they let it happen. I see people fall for the most obvious scams because of greed. Millions of dollars are lost every year by the same old tired Nigerian scam.

The cultural differences are more about the food they eat and the clothes they wear and the music. I never hear people complaining about those things.

Well said.

You said: "It appears to me that Thailand is where the US was 50 years ago in terms of corruption, safety, politeness, and social skills." You have got to be kidding! 50 years ago the US was much better in terms of corruption, safety, politeness, and social skills. Then you said, "As far as much of the stuff that gets mentioned here (lying, cheating, and overall corruption) I don't think that is cultural thing." Yes, they are! That is why Thailand and Nigeria are well known for these things. You never hear people complaining about food, and music in Thailand? OK, Thai food is horrible and is probably the worst in all of Asia. The music is worse than horrible--one step below CRAP (aka. RAP) and that is as bad as it gets. You seem to be living on another planet. But, we can agree to disagree.

[Naam]

The Thais have so many faces that it's easy to be fooled into thinking that they do appreciate our presence and contributions, but after a few years [12 in my case], I can't help realizing that they just tolerate us for our $$ and when the $$ are gone, we're gone too.....bye bye falang.

let's assume that is the case JDG, where's the problem? do you think a foreigner is welcome in any country without $$ or the capability to work or contribute in various other ways to the country's benefit? what are Thailand's benefits should you and me have spent our last $$?

[ozzieovaseas]

^^ Yes, well one thing for certain...there would be a lot of very talented gardeners out of work

[trisailer]

So you think there are no 'cultural' differences?

I think there are cultural differences, but they have more to do with the level of development the country is at. It appears to me that Thailand is where the US was 50 years ago in terms of corruption, safety, politeness, and social skills. One of the things that annoy me is the driving. It seems like few people understand the rules of the road. It drives me crazy when a pickup waits at a U-turn until there is no traffic because he wants to go all the way over to the left. The proper way is to stay in the speed up lane and then merge over. The reason, as my wife explains is that there are so many new drivers and drivers from the country where rules are not a necessary. So, I guess that is a cultural thing.

Clearly there is a language issue. When someone start rattling of in Thai to me my brain freezes up and theirs do the same. That's human.

As far as much of the stuff that gets mentioned here (lying, cheating, and overall corruption) I don't think that is cultural thing.

I think it has more to do with the individual character of the person involved. I've run across my share of lier's and cheats in the west. If you come across as an easy mark, which a lot of people do here because they feel safe your probably going to get ripped off. So far most of the people that I am aware of being ripped off here has been by other farangs.

Obviously I am excluding bar girls and other people of lower character. Guys do things here that they would never think of doing if they went into the average housing project or trailor park in their home country. Nobody gets taken unless they let it happen. I see people fall for the most obvious scams because of greed. Millions of dollars are lost every year by the same old tired Nigerian scam.

The cultural differences are more about the food they eat and the clothes they wear and the music. I never hear people complaining about those things.

Well said.

You said: "It appears to me that Thailand is where the US was 50 years ago in terms of corruption, safety, politeness, and social skills." You have got to be kidding! 50 years ago the US was much better in terms of corruption, safety, politeness, and social skills. Then you said, "As far as much of the stuff that gets mentioned here (lying, cheating, and overall corruption) I don't think that is cultural thing." Yes, they are! That is why Thailand and Nigeria are well known for these things. You never hear people complaining about food, and music in Thailand? OK, Thai food is horrible and is probably the worst in all of Asia. The music is worse than horrible--one step below CRAP (aka. RAP) and that is as bad as it gets. You seem to be living on another planet. But, we can agree to disagree.

Perhaps a history lesson will help you. Google police corruption in the US and you will get enough reading to keep you busy for a month. Some things that come to mind are the corruption in the LAPD, the Maimi police force in the 80's were running the cocane trade, ever see the movie Serpico? The US FBI was run for decades by a closited gay who denied the existance of the US mafia untill he was forced to admit that it esisted after the NY mob gathering was raided. JE Hoover wrote the book on blackmail and he learned it from the mob. He did their bidding because they had the "goods on him and his hipocritical bahavior. He then became the most powerful man in America because he got the goods on every US president and pulled out his folders on them each and every time they tried to fire him (every one of them)Every country has the exact same history. My grandfather was one of the first 10 Maine State Police officers back in 1920. He took tea money all the time and told me it was part of the pay that they all expected. Later, during prohibition he was a G-man and also took money. They saw saw their role as managers of the social problems and I'm not so sure that they did a better job of it than the current PC police.

Make a effort to gather a little OBJECTIVE facts if your going to compare Thailand with the west. Thailand does not have the resources to run it's police force the way they do it in the west, but it appears to be working just fine to me. Do you want to pay the taxes that would be required to make it into "like the west?" No, I didn't think so.

Edited June 16, 2011 by trisailer

[Awohalitsiktoli]

Perhaps a history lesson will help you. Google police corruption in the US and you will get enough reading to keep you busy for a month. Some things that come to mind are the corruption in the LAPD, the Maimi police force in the 80's were running the cocane trade, ever see the movie Serpico? The US FBI was run for decades by a closited gay who denied the existance of the US mafia untill he was forced to admit that it esisted after the NY mob gathering was raided. JE Hoover wrote the book on blackmail and he learned it from the mob. He did their bidding because they had the "goods on him and his hipocritical bahavior. He then became the most powerful man in America because he got the goods on every US president and pulled out his folders on them each and every time they tried to fire him (every one of them)Every country has the exact same history. My grandfather was one of the first 10 Maine State Police officers back in 1920. He took tea money all the time and told me it was part of the pay that they all expected. Later, during prohibition he was a G-man and also took money. They saw saw their role as managers of the social problems and I'm not so sure that they did a better job of it than the current PC police.

Make a effort to gather a little OBJECTIVE facts if your going to compare Thailand with the west. Thailand does not have the resources to run it's police force the way they do it in the west, but it appears to be working just fine to me. Do you want to pay the taxes that would be required to make it into "like the west?" No, I didn't think so.

[JurgenG]

Do I feel like being part of it ?

With in-laws like mines (some, not all), my best answer would be a quote from C&H :

"I don't care about being accepted. I'd settle for being ignored"

[NALAK]

never feel accepted as the immigration sign says Aleins and thats all we will ever be cash cows and as long as we remain that we will be tolerated. been here 10 years work for various charity causes speak the language but know i will never be looked upon as equal