Corruption -Tell Everyone!

[wolfmanjack]

FWIW:

The first difference between the FCPA and the Act which has been much commented upon is the carve-out contained in the FCPA in relation to "facilitation" or "grease" payments. These are payments made to foreign officials to expedite routine government business within that foreign jurisdiction. Whilst much has been made of this difference, it should be noted that in practice the effects of the FCPA carve-out are fairly narrow as the key wording ("routine governmental action") means that facilitation payments are not allowed in relation to decisions about awarding new business or continuing existing dealings. Nevertheless, some international operators who may be set up to function in accordance with the American carve-outs could be caught out by the fact that no such exemptions exist in the UK Act.

Whilst the general attitude towards facilitation payments is one of zero-tolerance, the Adequate Procedures Guidance highlights that a prosecutor will have discretion in deciding whether it is in the public interest to pursue a particular prosecution. Whilst a company should have a general policy of probationary facility payment there may be a defence where a payment is made to protect against loss of life, limb or liberty.

The second difference to be noted is that whilst the FCPA is concerned only with the bribery of government officials, the Act makes no such distinctions and will apply to both public and private sector bribery.

The problem is it would be impossible for me to be in business if i did not pay the bribes. When i applied for my electricity the approved permit was on the guys desk for weeks already and he refused to give it to me until a bribe was paid. The same for many of my licenses to operate. Every time i was told a date to come back i was told that I had to wait my turn and come back next week. I did this for several months before i caved in and started paying the tea money. If i would have never caved in my factory would never have been built. Even with caving in and paying a huge bribe it still took me 3 1/2 years to get one of my licenses i needed. If it was as simple as do not pay a bribe and wait for my normal turn then i could live with that but in reality if you do not pay a bribe your turn never comes. Every paper has a signing fee plus the normal government fee or the person that has to sign is never available.

As for traffic police every time i have paid a bribe it was for something that i did not do. To be fair when i lived in the USA i was ticketed for stuff i did not do also due to the ticket quota the police had. One friend of mine that is a police officer showed me how they would point the radar gun at the fan on the heater or aircon to register diff speeds then pull people over to give them a ticket. Corrupt in a different way and much more expensive to me than paying 100 or 200 baht to the police every now and then.

[jayjayjayjay]

Perhaps if there was less corruption people would learn to drive safely

Perhaps if there was less corruption the roads would be built better; safer layouts, less pot-holes, better visibility of signage...

SC

Yes, perhaps.

And perhaps there would be no naughty nightlife, no choice but to surrender your drivers license and take a ticket when committing a violation, no street vendors selling delicious food, and no chance to buy your way out of trouble if you really got into a jam, etc., etc.

I wonder how many expats would honestly make that sacrifice to rid the land of corruption, if it came down to a choice? I would have to give it a long, hard think.

Have read through most of this thread. I m in between the UK and Bangkok often, and have lived in Bangkok for long spells, however, being in the West now shows me that being Thailand is much more desirable, and when I have been in Thailand its always felt more relaxed and less intrusive. I think a lot of the posters should come back to the West to get some perspective. I m kind of on Richards argument here...The UK , and from what I can gather from US friends, and in the EU is becoming an evermore bureaucratic night mare.

The place feels sterile, boring, there are new rules and regulations coming out every day designed to govern and interfere in every little nook and cranny of our lives. What business is it of some politician who I probably never endorsed in any election tells me that I must pay 70% tax on a bottle of wine, that I must not take too much salt, what type of light bulb I need to put in my house. There is this attempt here to micromanage every aspect of an individuals life.

I have listened to the stories of some small business owners who are in agreement. A cafe in a town wants to put a few small tables and chairs out the front of the shop, and the nice man from the council comes a long and says you need to pay a yearly fee for that...or he will be sent to court and to pay a £3000 fine.

A local hairdresser to ease the boredom for waiting customers wants to put a TV on the wall. She has to buy a TV license, which she expected, but now someone calls in to tell her to buy a music license.

And all the stories are coming out from all the corruption in the councils and politicians expenses. Councils have been spending millions of tax payers money on credit card and now refuse to give over details of what it was spent on. For me this is corruption under the guise of socialism. The money might not go to a policeman, but it goes to some bureaucrat to waste and spend on his house, travel, food. Have you seen the food bill for some of these guys for a year?

The bank bailouts also. A complete and utter corruption of the system, with government and corporations and the banks all in bed together. We might paint it in nice language in the West, and under the guise of social good, and necessary for the good of society and the economy.Total rubbish. Politicians have spent so much that the West is now bankrupt. And now want to to tax citizens who are already highly taxed even more. For me, a government that takes 50% of your income tax, add 20% VAT, has a monopoly over alcohol pricing, and charges you 70% tax on petrol through force and coercion is corruption., The government call it TAX. For me that is real corruption, that politicians spend other peoples money, and squandered their savings without the means of production to pay it back...

Nice piece.

[Richard4849]

You take the philosophical high road while your actions take the low road. That's hypocrisy.

If corruption is tearing the country apart -- don't feed it. And I mean never going into a bar that is a front for prostitution, pays off cops to allow smoking inside or to be allowed to stay open late, and never pay a fine to a cop on the spot.

I, on the other hand, take what you would probably consider the philosophical low road (I can't do anything about it -- complaining about it certainly doesn't help, and I admit that I enjoy the occasional benefit from it)-- but it is a practical philosophy and one that does not make me a hypocrite.

The hysterical ranting of a farang never made a damned bit of difference in this country. You can only hope to change things by stop feeding the beast and hoping others will follow. By your own admission, you're unwilling to do that -- so the ranting is useless at best, plain annoying at worst.

It's like those damned tree huggers who mouth off and preach at every opportunity, then drive home in their SUV's.

[SteeleJoe]

FWIW:

The first difference between the FCPA and the Act which has been much commented upon is the carve-out contained in the FCPA in relation to "facilitation" or "grease" payments. These are payments made to foreign officials to expedite routine government business within that foreign jurisdiction. Whilst much has been made of this difference, it should be noted that in practice the effects of the FCPA carve-out are fairly narrow as the key wording ("routine governmental action") means that facilitation payments are not allowed in relation to decisions about awarding new business or continuing existing dealings. Nevertheless, some international operators who may be set up to function in accordance with the American carve-outs could be caught out by the fact that no such exemptions exist in the UK Act.

Whilst the general attitude towards facilitation payments is one of zero-tolerance, the Adequate Procedures Guidance highlights that a prosecutor will have discretion in deciding whether it is in the public interest to pursue a particular prosecution. Whilst a company should have a general policy of probationary facility payment there may be a defence where a payment is made to protect against loss of life, limb or liberty.

The second difference to be noted is that whilst the FCPA is concerned only with the bribery of government officials, the Act makes no such distinctions and will apply to both public and private sector bribery.

The problem is it would be impossible for me to be in business if i did not pay the bribes. When i applied for my electricity the approved permit was on the guys desk for weeks already and he refused to give it to me until a bribe was paid. The same for many of my licenses to operate. Every time i was told a date to come back i was told that I had to wait my turn and come back next week. I did this for several months before i caved in and started paying the tea money. If i would have never caved in my factory would never have been built. Even with caving in and paying a huge bribe it still took me 3 1/2 years to get one of my licenses i needed. If it was as simple as do not pay a bribe and wait for my normal turn then i could live with that but in reality if you do not pay a bribe your turn never comes. Every paper has a signing fee plus the normal government fee or the person that has to sign is never available.

As for traffic police every time i have paid a bribe it was for something that i did not do. To be fair when i lived in the USA i was ticketed for stuff i did not do also due to the ticket quota the police had. One friend of mine that is a police officer showed me how they would point the radar gun at the fan on the heater or aircon to register diff speeds then pull people over to give them a ticket. Corrupt in a different way and much more expensive to me than paying 100 or 200 baht to the police every now and then.

I'm totally in agreement with all of that and sympathize.

But according to some, any Farang not in a vice business (bar, brothel, whatever) is not likely to encounter any corruption other than the kind where they don't have to participate if they don't want. (Is selling furniture a vice? I know my sister-in-laws business isn't vice...nor is that of so many other friends who have no choice but to make "facility payments".)

[Richard4849]

Not talking about your sister-in-law. Talking about normal farangs. Like me and most guys here. Not too many of us own factories, and if we did I'm pretty sure we'd make a provision for such things when writing up a business plan that involved taking advantage of cheap foreign labor (is there a place anywhere where cheap foreign labor is not accompanied by other "costs of doing business"?).

[SteeleJoe]

You take the philosophical high road while your actions take the low road. That's hypocrisy.

So let me get this straight. When you said you agreed, you didn't? And actually you don't think corruption is tearing this country apart? So you aren't a hypocrite?

Because you don't complain you aren't hypocrite, even though you see what you do as ultimately being wrong? Or you don't think it's wrong?

The hysterical ranting of a farang never made a damned bit of difference in this country. You can only hope to change things by stop feeding the beast and hoping others will follow. By your own admission, you're unwilling to do that -- so the ranting is useless at best, plain annoying at worst.

I'll ignore the puerile and embarrassing (for you) resort to personal attack and point out that 1) I already said very early in the thread, that my complaints are useless 2) the forum is here to discuss topics and I am discussing this one and 3) none of our comments here are anything but useless.

And unlike the tree hypothetical tree huggers, I acknowledge my guilt and I have very little choice but to commit the acts I'm guilty of. (Mouth off? Lovely. Preach at every opportunity? Nothing to do with me.)

That it annoys you to be confronted with someone's opinion on a topic that you felt free to opine on repeatedly (an opinion that you can not refute and even agreed with)...well, need I say more about hypocrisy? Or lack of tenable argument? Or discomfort with the truth?

[SteeleJoe]

I'm pretty sure we'd make a provision for such things when writing up a business plan that involved taking advantage of cheap foreign labor

I am too.

But that has nothing to do with alleviating the problems with corruption or why I think it "heinous". I'm not talking about the fact that it costs me money. In fact, I'm not talking about me. I'm talking about what it does to Thailand.

EDIT to ADD:

The fact that other places are corrupt -- many far more than Thailand -- has zero to do with what I posted or this thread: we are talking about corruption in Thailand.

Edited June 8, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[Richard4849]

No one who refers to another poster's opinion repugnant, immoral, ignorant, and puerile should take such offense when words like "rant" and "mouth off" are used in return.

You have "little choice" not to pay off a cop to get out of a ticket? How, exactly? Oh, right...you don't want to go down to the police station. That's having little choice?

Someone's wife's afraid she can't pass the exam so they pay for a passing grade...because they have "little choice".

How can you get so worked up about something, then make absolutely zero apparent effort to do anything about it. Not even avoiding it when you could, but because it might be inconvenient?

That's all I'm going to say on this matter. We'll see how much you like Thailand if you get your wish and corruption comes to a screeching halt.

I think I'll go have a nice drink in a bar that won't exist when that day comes.

[wolfmanjack]

I'm pretty sure we'd make a provision for such things when writing up a business plan that involved taking advantage of cheap foreign labor

I am too.

But that has nothing to do with alleviating the problems with corruption or why I think it "heinous". I'm not talking about the fact that it costs me money. In fact, I'm not talking about me. I'm talking about what it does to Thailand.

EDIT to ADD:

The fact that other places are corrupt -- many far more than Thailand -- has zero to do with what I posted or this thread: we are talking about corruption in Thailand.

Including the bribes in your business plan before you open is not so easy. Where do you go to find out what the bribes are going to be in advance? How could I have guessed that the bribe would be in the hundreds of thousands of baht when the government fee is only 5,000 baht? Some licenses that had fees of 3,000 or 4,000 baht only had a bribe of 30,000 attached to it. Who can guess? Of course now i know what i have to pay and can include that in my expense but when i first started setting the factory up i had no idea whatsoever what the bribes would be.

[wolfmanjack]

I'm pretty sure we'd make a provision for such things when writing up a business plan that involved taking advantage of cheap foreign labor

I am too.

But that has nothing to do with alleviating the problems with corruption or why I think it "heinous". I'm not talking about the fact that it costs me money. In fact, I'm not talking about me. I'm talking about what it does to Thailand.

EDIT to ADD:

The fact that other places are corrupt -- many far more than Thailand -- has zero to do with what I posted or this thread: we are talking about corruption in Thailand.

Including the bribes in your business plan before you open is not so easy. Where do you go to find out what the bribes are going to be in advance? How could I have guessed that the bribe would be in the hundreds of thousands of baht when the government fee is only 5,000 baht? Some licenses that had fees of 3,000 or 4,000 baht only had a bribe of 30,000 attached to it. Who can guess? Of course now i know what i have to pay and can include that in my expense but when i first started setting the factory up i had no idea whatsoever what the bribes would be.

[SteeleJoe]

No one who refers to another poster's opinion repugnant, immoral, ignorant, and puerile should take such offense when words like "rant" and "mouth off" are used in return.

Out of context and distorted every one. And you -- and anyone who can read -- knows that. (And most of that wasn't "in return" and you know that too)

You have "little choice" not to pay off a cop to get out of a ticket? How, exactly? Oh, right...you don't want to go down to the police station. That's having little choice?

Someone's wife's afraid she can't pass the exam so they pay for a passing grade...because they have "little choice".

Didn't say any of that. Ever.

How can you get so worked up about something, then make absolutely zero apparent effort to do anything about it. Not even avoiding it when you could, but because it might be inconvenient?

Nothing there describes me.

That's all I'm going to say on this matter. We'll see how much you like Thailand if you get your wish and corruption comes to a screeching halt.

I doubt we will see it but I've already addressed that too. I know neither of us wants me to go into again all the reasons why corruption is bad -- reasons you initially agreed with -- but if Thailand is a place with greater equality and justice and less oligarchy and few victims (some of them fatally) of the various manifestations of corruption, I think I might still like it a lot. (Even if it meant I couldn't go to a go-go bar -- which believe it or not doesn't fill me with dread.)

Oh, and in actual fact I didn't express a wish for a screeching halt, did I? Nope.

Enjoy your drink. Can't blame you for wanting to do that more than this.

Edited June 8, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[Wasp]

I agree . This is a nice piece of writing , RedFXTrade !!!!

Perhaps if there was less corruption people would learn to drive safely

Perhaps if there was less corruption the roads would be built better; safer layouts, less pot-holes, better visibility of signage...

SC

Yes, perhaps.

And perhaps there would be no naughty nightlife, no choice but to surrender your drivers license and take a ticket when committing a violation, no street vendors selling delicious food, and no chance to buy your way out of trouble if you really got into a jam, etc., etc.

I wonder how many expats would honestly make that sacrifice to rid the land of corruption, if it came down to a choice? I would have to give it a long, hard think.

Have read through most of this thread. I m in between the UK and Bangkok often, and have lived in Bangkok for long spells, however, being in the West now shows me that being Thailand is much more desirable, and when I have been in Thailand its always felt more relaxed and less intrusive. I think a lot of the posters should come back to the West to get some perspective. I m kind of on Richards argument here...The UK , and from what I can gather from US friends, and in the EU is becoming an evermore bureaucratic night mare.

The place feels sterile, boring, there are new rules and regulations coming out every day designed to govern and interfere in every little nook and cranny of our lives. What business is it of some politician who I probably never endorsed in any election tells me that I must pay 70% tax on a bottle of wine, that I must not take too much salt, what type of light bulb I need to put in my house. There is this attempt here to micromanage every aspect of an individuals life.

I have listened to the stories of some small business owners who are in agreement. A cafe in a town wants to put a few small tables and chairs out the front of the shop, and the nice man from the council comes a long and says you need to pay a yearly fee for that...or he will be sent to court and to pay a £3000 fine.

A local hairdresser to ease the boredom for waiting customers wants to put a TV on the wall. She has to buy a TV license, which she expected, but now someone calls in to tell her to buy a music license.

And all the stories are coming out from all the corruption in the councils and politicians expenses. Councils have been spending millions of tax payers money on credit card and now refuse to give over details of what it was spent on. For me this is corruption under the guise of socialism. The money might not go to a policeman, but it goes to some bureaucrat to waste and spend on his house, travel, food. Have you seen the food bill for some of these guys for a year?

The bank bailouts also. A complete and utter corruption of the system, with government and corporations and the banks all in bed together. We might paint it in nice language in the West, and under the guise of social good, and necessary for the good of society and the economy.Total rubbish. Politicians have spent so much that the West is now bankrupt. And now want to to tax citizens who are already highly taxed even more. For me, a government that takes 50% of your income tax, add 20% VAT, has a monopoly over alcohol pricing, and charges you 70% tax on petrol through force and coercion is corruption., The government call it TAX. For me that is real corruption, that politicians spend other peoples money, and squandered their savings without the means of production to pay it back...

Nice piece.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Wasp

[IanForbes]

Corruption? Tell everyone? Sure I will. Corruption is great! It allows me to break laws and pay off some policeman with a bribe rather than going the much more expensive route of going to trial or paying fines. I can get a building put up at half the cost by not following regulations or building standards. A simple bribe to a government official will let it pass. Who cares if I have a license for anything? It's simpler and cheaper just to pay a bribe.

However, I'm not sure how this relates to the topic the OP posted about India. What does something in India have to do with Thailand?

[SteeleJoe]

Corruption is great! It allows me to break laws and pay off some policeman with a bribe rather than going the much more expensive route of going to trial or paying fines. I can get a building put up at half the cost by not following regulations or building standards. A simple bribe to a government official will let it pass. Who cares if I have a license for anything? It's simpler and cheaper just to pay a bribe.

There we go.

Perfect. Couldn't have made up a better display if I had tried. The ideal post on which to head for bed...

[StreetCowboy]

Corruption? Tell everyone? Sure I will. Corruption is great! It allows me to break laws and pay off some policeman with a bribe rather than going the much more expensive route of going to trial or paying fines. I can get a building put up at half the cost by not following regulations or building standards. A simple bribe to a government official will let it pass. Who cares if I have a license for anything? It's simpler and cheaper just to pay a bribe.

However, I'm not sure how this relates to the topic the OP posted about India. What does something in India have to do with Thailand?

OIn my way into work this morning I passed a motorcyclist with his head spread out over the tarmac. If it had been me building the road, I'd maybe have built it to last longer, followed the standards for lane widths, put in kerbs, and so forth, but instead it was 90% built by a contractor who couldn't care less and 10% not built at all. The mototrcyclist looked like he might otherwise have had 20 years' productive graft effort and tax-paying ahead of him; his family were not present at the time. I wonder how the person that knocked him off his bike got his licence? You might care to browse the thread "another shower death" regarding building standards.

Corruption costs more than 200 baht.

SC

[msg362]

I've been following this thread. There has been a very active discussion over the morality of paying bribes but few have tried to answer the question. Maybe I wasn't clear enough.

Can we all accept that paying bribes for many services ( and ? driving ???? errors??) is common in Thailand?

If we do then the question I was trying to ask is :

Are Thais likely to use a 'a publicise the briber' type site or is this not is the Thai way? ( which is to accept and not cause a fuss)

[Travel2003]

I've been following this thread. There has been a very active discussion over the morality of paying bribes but few have tried to answer the question. Maybe I wasn't clear enough.

Can we all accept that paying bribes for many services ( and ? driving ???? errors??) is common in Thailand?

If we do then the question I was trying to ask is :

Are Thais likely to use a 'a publicise the briber' type site or is this not is the Thai way? ( which is to accept and not cause a fuss)

Yes you were clear enough.

We do not all accept that we must pay "something extra" to be provided a service or a favor.

More than 70% of the Thais accept bribes as part of life. How many % that pay bribers are probably higher.

So why should they bother publicising them if they see it as nescessary sometimes to use bribes.

[IanForbes]

Corruption? Tell everyone? Sure I will. Corruption is great! It allows me to break laws and pay off some policeman with a bribe rather than going the much more expensive route of going to trial or paying fines. I can get a building put up at half the cost by not following regulations or building standards. A simple bribe to a government official will let it pass. Who cares if I have a license for anything? It's simpler and cheaper just to pay a bribe.

However, I'm not sure how this relates to the topic the OP posted about India. What does something in India have to do with Thailand?

OIn my way into work this morning I passed a motorcyclist with his head spread out over the tarmac. If it had been me building the road, I'd maybe have built it to last longer, followed the standards for lane widths, put in kerbs, and so forth, but instead it was 90% built by a contractor who couldn't care less and 10% not built at all. The mototrcyclist looked like he might otherwise have had 20 years' productive graft effort and tax-paying ahead of him; his family were not present at the time. I wonder how the person that knocked him off his bike got his licence? You might care to browse the thread "another shower death" regarding building standards.

Corruption costs more than 200 baht.

SC

Win one, lose one. There are already too many people in this world. Considering that few Thai men use condoms there are more than a few extra babies to make up for the losses.

A friend of mine has a boat on a trailer, but there is no license for the trailer. I asked why he didn't buy a license. He told me it was much cheaper paying a fine/bribe at the occasional road block where they check for licenses.

[SteeleJoe]

Corruption? Tell everyone? Sure I will. Corruption is great! It allows me to break laws and pay off some policeman with a bribe rather than going the much more expensive route of going to trial or paying fines. I can get a building put up at half the cost by not following regulations or building standards. A simple bribe to a government official will let it pass. Who cares if I have a license for anything? It's simpler and cheaper just to pay a bribe.

However, I'm not sure how this relates to the topic the OP posted about India. What does something in India have to do with Thailand?

OIn my way into work this morning I passed a motorcyclist with his head spread out over the tarmac. If it had been me building the road, I'd maybe have built it to last longer, followed the standards for lane widths, put in kerbs, and so forth, but instead it was 90% built by a contractor who couldn't care less and 10% not built at all. The mototrcyclist looked like he might otherwise have had 20 years' productive graft effort and tax-paying ahead of him; his family were not present at the time. I wonder how the person that knocked him off his bike got his licence? You might care to browse the thread "another shower death" regarding building standards.

Corruption costs more than 200 baht.

SC

Win one, lose one. There are already too many people in this world. Considering that few Thai men use condoms there are more than a few extra babies to make up for the losses.

A friend of mine has a boat on a trailer, but there is no license for the trailer. I asked why he didn't buy a license. He told me it was much cheaper paying a fine/bribe at the occasional road block where they check for licenses.

And the hits keep coming!

Great post SC. Entirely wasted on some though.

[SteeleJoe]

This was one of the earlier concrete examples (most are not so direct and stark but many just as bad or worse) I saw within a few years of my growing realization that corruption wasn't just bad for abstract ethical reasons or because it allowed people to enrich themselves unfairly or because it meant that things that could have been to the benefit of the populace (and parts of it that was in dire need) weren't being done because the fund were going elsewhere...

'

Published: August 15, 1993

• Rescue workers in northeastern Thailand searched today for scores of people believed to be trapped in the ruins of a six-story hotel that collapsed on Friday, killing dozens of people.

Using crowbars and jackhammers to dig through the rubble, rescue teams in Nakorn Ratchasima said several people still in the flattened remains of the hotel were able to call on mobile phones to plead for help.

Just after dawn today, more than 20 hours after the collapse, rescue workers pulled a pregnant woman alive from the tangle of steel and concrete debris of the hotel, the Royal Plaza, which had once been considered the most luxurious hotel in Nakorn Ratchasima, also known as Korat, a provincial capital about 150 miles northeast of Bangkok. More than 200 people were injured in the collapse.

Tonight, 22 people were found in the coffee shop of the hotel, bringing the death toll to 88, Reuters reported. Among those reported to have died in the hotel collapse was a United States Air Force master sergeant who was caught under the falling building when he stopped there to send a fax.

The United States Embassy identified him as Raymon Canda and said he had been stationed on Guam, Reuters said. Master Sgt. Larry H. Crimson of the Air Force said Sergeant Canda was in Thailand to help install telephone lines at a Thai Air Force base, The Associated Press reported.

The hotel's owner, architect and engineer were detained by the police for questioning after news reports said three stories had been added to the hotel in 1990 without adequate architectural review, and that thousands of gallons of waters had been pumped into rooftop storage tanks in recent days in the expectation of a water shortage.

At the scene on Friday, Prime Minister Chuan Likphai seemed certain that the collapse resulted from negligence, noting that some Government inspectors take bribes in exchange for approving construction of unsafe buildings. "It seems we Thais do not respect regulations and this has resulted in frequent problems," the Prime Minister said.

The police said that while they had no final tally for the number of people who were registered in the hotel on Friday morning, scores of people had been reported missing.

At the time of the collapse, the hotel's ballrooms were being used for a number of large meetings, including a conference of 60 teachers from northeastern provinces of Thailand and a gathering for nearly 120 employees of a Thai oil company.

And as far as I recall, in the end no one was ever held truly accountable for this -- I wonder why?

Edited June 9, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[StreetCowboy]

This was one of the earlier concrete examples (most are not so direct and stark but many just as bad or worse) I saw within a few years of my growing realization that corruption wasn't just bad for abstract ethical reasons or because it allowed people to enrich themselves unfairly or because it meant that things that could have been to the benefit of the populace (and parts of it that was in dire need) weren't being done because the fund were going elsewhere...

'

Published: August 15, 1993

• Rescue workers in northeastern Thailand searched today for scores of people believed to be trapped in the ruins of a six-story hotel that collapsed on Friday, killing dozens of people.

Using crowbars and jackhammers to dig through the rubble, rescue teams in Nakorn Ratchasima said several people still in the flattened remains of the hotel were able to call on mobile phones to plead for help.

Just after dawn today, more than 20 hours after the collapse, rescue workers pulled a pregnant woman alive from the tangle of steel and concrete debris of the hotel, the Royal Plaza, which had once been considered the most luxurious hotel in Nakorn Ratchasima, also known as Korat, a provincial capital about 150 miles northeast of Bangkok. More than 200 people were injured in the collapse.

Tonight, 22 people were found in the coffee shop of the hotel, bringing the death toll to 88, Reuters reported. Among those reported to have died in the hotel collapse was a United States Air Force master sergeant who was caught under the falling building when he stopped there to send a fax.

The United States Embassy identified him as Raymon Canda and said he had been stationed on Guam, Reuters said. Master Sgt. Larry H. Crimson of the Air Force said Sergeant Canda was in Thailand to help install telephone lines at a Thai Air Force base, The Associated Press reported.

The hotel's owner, architect and engineer were detained by the police for questioning after news reports said three stories had been added to the hotel in 1990 without adequate architectural review, and that thousands of gallons of waters had been pumped into rooftop storage tanks in recent days in the expectation of a water shortage.

At the scene on Friday, Prime Minister Chuan Likphai seemed certain that the collapse resulted from negligence, noting that some Government inspectors take bribes in exchange for approving construction of unsafe buildings. "It seems we Thais do not respect regulations and this has resulted in frequent problems," the Prime Minister said.

The police said that while they had no final tally for the number of people who were registered in the hotel on Friday morning, scores of people had been reported missing.

At the time of the collapse, the hotel's ballrooms were being used for a number of large meetings, including a conference of 60 teachers from northeastern provinces of Thailand and a gathering for nearly 120 employees of a Thai oil company.

And as far as I recall, in the end no one was ever held truly accountable for this -- I wonder why?

I expect the Santika night club got its entertainment licence from the same place they got their driving licences; still, no harm done, unless there's an accident, and we can't prepare for every act of God...

SC

Personally, I am of the view that some of the regulations are made unnecessarily complex in order that people cannot reasonably and honestly comply. However, I don't really have any evidence of that. It is frustrating, though, to have to get certified copies of documents from institutions all around the world; it would be so much easier just to forge the certified copies, regardless of the veracity or otherwise of the original document...

[SteeleJoe]

Nothing to do while waiting for a Skype...revist this one? Why not?

I expect the Santika night club got its entertainment licence from the same place they got their driving licences; still, no harm done, unless there's an accident, and we can't prepare for every act of God...

SC

Personally, I am of the view that some of the regulations are made unnecessarily complex in order that people cannot reasonably and honestly comply. However, I don't really have any evidence of that. It is frustrating, though, to have to get certified copies of documents from institutions all around the world; it would be so much easier just to forge the certified copies, regardless of the veracity or otherwise of the original document...

Yes, the Santika Club fire is a more recent example of harmless corruption.

Make regulations harder to comply with? Dear me...what possible motive would they have for that?

Then there are the countless projects that arguably negatively affect the environment and/or are a massive waste of taxpayer funds thanks to things built in to make the corrupt officials even more money -- and as a consequence divert them from where they might do good for those in need.

The Thai chapter of Transparency International list as one of the myths about corruption in Thailand:

"It is alright to be corrupt because it does not effect our lives directly, and everyone can go about their business as usual."

And replies to that:

Corruption harms all of us. It makes society less fair and damages investment, the economy, law enforcement, the environment, health services, politics and all spheres of life.

And I say again -- it dooms any hope of Thailand ever becoming a country with Rule of Law. Without that, there can be no just and democratic society.

But who needs that, right? Especially if it means Go Go bars wouldn't thrive (which I don't necessarily believe has to be the case) or we have to obey inconvenient traffic laws. So what if it ultimately harms the Thais (and...errrr...everyone who lives here and has family here)?

Edited June 18, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[evanson]

Richard, How do you think ,in the past , most Thai s got their car and motorbike licences? The vast majority failed the test, walked out to the front gate and lo and behold ,there was a desk, which for B500, you got your brand new licence. Which , magically got entered in the D.L.T's computers.Now. of course ,with the new Photographic system ,bribing to get your licence has finished, But in the past it was rampant.

Like I said...a bribe was not and never was REQUIRED to get a drivers license if you paid for one.

Perhaps a little palm greasing would get you one if you failed the test.

It is different from a little man saying "you're paperwork is all in order and you passed the test -- but you don't get a license unless you backhand me a fiver".

Do you see the difference?

As for 30% commissions built in to government tenders...yes, absolutely it exists. But that effects you or anyone else on this form how, exactly?

It makes my tax prohibitively high, and results in sub-standard construction, and 30% less new roads.

It means that the people who do the best job do not prosper, and so there is no incentive to doing a good job.

It means the hospitals spend all their time trying to squeeze brains back into broken heads, looking after the stupid and reckless instead of the unfortunate.

I agree it is good to keep the poor of Thailand disadvantaged and ignorant, for the benefit of foreign tourists, the local elite and sex tourists, but my company was not willing to pay the price in extra tax and lower efficiency, and so now most of our work in Thailand is done from overseas. Nice nights out for the boys from HK, I suppose.

SC

You're right that systemic high-level corruption is not good for Thailand in the long run.

Is it possible to be against certain types of corruption OK with others? I really don't think most posters here would like a completely corruption-free Thailand.

Having lived here for many years, my attitude toward corruption has intensified insofar as, it's extremely bad for ANY country in the long term. I would have thought this obvious. Yes, to get out of a two/three hour wait to pay a traffic violation fine, to pay your local orborjor a 'tip' to enable you to commence building your house within a month, instead of the customary 3-4. BUT. If the rules weren't so ridiculous - having to leave the country every 90 days even though you've been married to a Thai National, and have children, etc, then these petty types of corruption would of course disappear overnight. Together with the more 'upscale' corruption - trafficking wildlife/children/prostitution and all it's attendant problems - drugs/pimps/violence/family disfunction/breakdown. And on it goes.

But of course, the more difficult the various processes are, the more money to enable 'fast track' to be made.

Anyone having a problem here with the corrupt to the core Royal Thai Police, come and tell us all about your experience with any laughable 'justice' system here.