Corruption -Tell Everyone!

[msg362]

Below is a link to a BBC story ( Mods, not sure if allowed to post it, sorry if not)

It tells how someone in India has set up a site to publicise corrupt acts. for example paying for your driving licence, paying to register your house etc ( sound familiar?). The effect has been to eliminate some activities. Driving licences can be applied for on line so no chance! The motorbike driving test has been automated and the result recorded ( not surprisingly the driving examiners opposed this innovation!)

What are the chances of something like this working here?

http://www.bbc.co.uk...h-asia-13616123

[Richard4849]

Doesn't sound familiar to me. People don't have to pay bribes to get a drivers license or register their house here. Mostly, people here pay bribes to get out of having done something wrong -- like traffic violations and running a bar that is a front for prostitution...

[gmac]

Doesn't sound familiar to me. People don't have to pay bribes to get a drivers license or register their house here. Mostly, people here pay bribes to get out of having done something wrong -- like traffic violations and running a bar that is a front for prostitution...

Up until a few years ago it was quite possible to pay a bribe to get a driving licence here. It was also possible to pay a bribe to to get to the front of the queue when registering a house.

Much as we all complain about the corruption here it is the free and easy lifestyle that it leads to that makes the place so attractive to many of us. Once the place becomes a clone of the US or Europe with all the rules and regulations that go with it I for one will be looking for somewhere else to live. I'm not a criminal, just someone who really doesn't think that a couple of miles per hour over the speed limit is a crime, nor putting your bin out on the wrong day, or failing to sort your rubbish into 7 different categories of crap!!

I love it here and am happy to let the Thai's get on with their country the way they like. If they want to become more like the West (or India as that was the original topic!) so be it but when you look at the state of the various economies in the West these days I'm not sure that preaching that particular gospel is necessarily the right way to go!

[Richard4849]

Doesn't sound familiar to me. People don't have to pay bribes to get a drivers license or register their house here. Mostly, people here pay bribes to get out of having done something wrong -- like traffic violations and running a bar that is a front for prostitution...

Up until a few years ago it was quite possible to pay a bribe to get a driving licence here. It was also possible to pay a bribe to to get to the front of the queue when registering a house.

I think there's a big difference between "possible" and "necessary".

If you HAD to pay a bribe to do the things you are rightfully entitled to do is one thing.

If you have the POSSIBILITY to pay a bribe to expedite things (if you're in a big hurry or are not qualified) is another.

Most so-called "bribery" in Thailand is in fact a convenience fee paid voluntarily by people who want an advantage.

Big difference in my mind.

[afarang]

Richard, How do you think ,in the past , most Thai s got their car and motorbike licences? The vast majority failed the test, walked out to the front gate and lo and behold ,there was a desk, which for B500, you got your brand new licence. Which , magically got entered in the D.L.T's computers.Now. of course ,with the new Photographic system ,bribing to get your licence has finished, But in the past it was rampant.

[SantiSuk]

Doesn't sound familiar to me. People don't have to pay bribes to get a drivers license or register their house here. Mostly, people here pay bribes to get out of having done something wrong -- like traffic violations and running a bar that is a front for prostitution...

I have been offered electricity supply services (a transformer to get more oomph into the house supply) at a substantial discount from the official price by greasing the right palms. I abhor corruption and have declined, although I must admit to paying the standard police rip-off of 200 baht to avoid having my travel time eaten up.

So it is not just a penalty-reduction thing here in Thailand.

Government contracts reportedly come with 30% bribery money priced in. Wow - some 'convenience fee'?!

[Richard4849]

Richard, How do you think ,in the past , most Thai s got their car and motorbike licences? The vast majority failed the test, walked out to the front gate and lo and behold ,there was a desk, which for B500, you got your brand new licence. Which , magically got entered in the D.L.T's computers.Now. of course ,with the new Photographic system ,bribing to get your licence has finished, But in the past it was rampant.

Like I said...a bribe was not and never was REQUIRED to get a drivers license if you paid for one.

Perhaps a little palm greasing would get you one if you failed the test.

It is different from a little man saying "you're paperwork is all in order and you passed the test -- but you don't get a license unless you backhand me a fiver".

Do you see the difference?

As for 30% commissions built in to government tenders...yes, absolutely it exists. But that effects you or anyone else on this form how, exactly?

[samran]

At a day to day level, it is pretty easy to live in Thailand without paying a bribe - you just follow the rules. The naysayers will disagree, but 13 years of living, working and establishing a business tell me otherwise.

It gets a bit more difficult when you start getting very high - dealing with certain ministers for certain approvals or winning bids.

[Travel2003]

At a day to day level, it is pretty easy to live in Thailand without paying a bribe - you just follow the rules. The naysayers will disagree, but 13 years of living, working and establishing a business tell me otherwise.

It gets a bit more difficult when you start getting very high - dealing with certain ministers for certain approvals or winning bids.

This is true.

Normally when one want something extra in life, as avoid not paying the fine, or stay open longer (bar owners), other business/personal/crime related transactions,one gladly pay bribes.

A study (ABAC poll) suggested that 76,1% of the people here see bribes/corruption as part of life.

Where do one start getting rid of this cancer?

Edited June 6, 2011 by metisdead
Link to Bangkok Post removed, Please read forum rule #31

[StreetCowboy]

Richard, How do you think ,in the past , most Thai s got their car and motorbike licences? The vast majority failed the test, walked out to the front gate and lo and behold ,there was a desk, which for B500, you got your brand new licence. Which , magically got entered in the D.L.T's computers.Now. of course ,with the new Photographic system ,bribing to get your licence has finished, But in the past it was rampant.

Like I said...a bribe was not and never was REQUIRED to get a drivers license if you paid for one.

Perhaps a little palm greasing would get you one if you failed the test.

It is different from a little man saying "you're paperwork is all in order and you passed the test -- but you don't get a license unless you backhand me a fiver".

Do you see the difference?

As for 30% commissions built in to government tenders...yes, absolutely it exists. But that effects you or anyone else on this form how, exactly?

It makes my tax prohibitively high, and results in sub-standard construction, and 30% less new roads.

It means that the people who do the best job do not prosper, and so there is no incentive to doing a good job.

It means the hospitals spend all their time trying to squeeze brains back into broken heads, looking after the stupid and reckless instead of the unfortunate.

I agree it is good to keep the poor of Thailand disadvantaged and ignorant, for the benefit of foreign tourists, the local elite and sex tourists, but my company was not willing to pay the price in extra tax and lower efficiency, and so now most of our work in Thailand is done from overseas. Nice nights out for the boys from HK, I suppose.

SC

[sabaijai]

I'm moving this to General Topics since the OP is asking whether this campaign would work in Thailand.

[Hermes100]

At a day to day level, it is pretty easy to live in Thailand without paying a bribe - you just follow the rules. The naysayers will disagree, but 13 years of living, working and establishing a business tell me otherwise.

It gets a bit more difficult when you start getting very high - dealing with certain ministers for certain approvals or winning bids.

Totally agree.

[Richard4849]

Richard, How do you think ,in the past , most Thai s got their car and motorbike licences? The vast majority failed the test, walked out to the front gate and lo and behold ,there was a desk, which for B500, you got your brand new licence. Which , magically got entered in the D.L.T's computers.Now. of course ,with the new Photographic system ,bribing to get your licence has finished, But in the past it was rampant.

Like I said...a bribe was not and never was REQUIRED to get a drivers license if you paid for one.

Perhaps a little palm greasing would get you one if you failed the test.

It is different from a little man saying "you're paperwork is all in order and you passed the test -- but you don't get a license unless you backhand me a fiver".

Do you see the difference?

As for 30% commissions built in to government tenders...yes, absolutely it exists. But that effects you or anyone else on this form how, exactly?

It makes my tax prohibitively high, and results in sub-standard construction, and 30% less new roads.

It means that the people who do the best job do not prosper, and so there is no incentive to doing a good job.

It means the hospitals spend all their time trying to squeeze brains back into broken heads, looking after the stupid and reckless instead of the unfortunate.

I agree it is good to keep the poor of Thailand disadvantaged and ignorant, for the benefit of foreign tourists, the local elite and sex tourists, but my company was not willing to pay the price in extra tax and lower efficiency, and so now most of our work in Thailand is done from overseas. Nice nights out for the boys from HK, I suppose.

SC

You're right that systemic high-level corruption is not good for Thailand in the long run.

Is it possible to be against certain types of corruption OK with others? I really don't think most posters here would like a completely corruption-free Thailand.

[barrybankruad]

Doesn't sound familiar to me. People don't have to pay bribes to get a drivers license or register their house here. Mostly, people here pay bribes to get out of having done something wrong -- like traffic violations and running a bar that is a front for prostitution...

Sorry Richard you are totally wrong here, I know of many people who have had to pay a bribe to pass their driving test (I was one of them) and as for the Land Registry Office it is said to be the most corrupt institution in Thailand. Try to get anything done and you are put off time and time again. Come back in 3 months. Whereas if you request a 'fast' decision then a payment 'under the counter' can ensure that you get what you want in 5 minutes. Again I have personal experience of this.

[Richard4849]

Doesn't sound familiar to me. People don't have to pay bribes to get a drivers license or register their house here. Mostly, people here pay bribes to get out of having done something wrong -- like traffic violations and running a bar that is a front for prostitution...

Sorry Richard you are totally wrong here, I know of many people who have had to pay a bribe to pass their driving test (I was one of them) and as for the Land Registry Office it is said to be the most corrupt institution in Thailand. Try to get anything done and you are put off time and time again. Come back in 3 months. Whereas if you request a 'fast' decision then a payment 'under the counter' can ensure that you get what you want in 5 minutes. Again I have personal experience of this.

Barry, if I understand correctly you failed the drivers test -- so you were offered the opportunity to buy a passing grade. If that's true, I wouldn't be griping if I were you. In a Western country you'd be taking the bus everywhere. People who pass the drivers test and therefore qualify for a drivers license don't have to pay anything.

Land Department -- your experience is different from mine. I've transferred land seven times (Bangkok and upcountry), never paid a dime, and it's never taken more than half a day to complete the transaction.

In any case, what you're describing is again a convenience fee. If you're in a rush and want to jump the queue, you pay. That's an option for people who don't want to wait their turn. It often happens when there is a lawyer involved...they tell you something will never get done unless you pay...then you cough up and of course the lawyer pockets it.

[StreetCowboy]

Richard, How do you think ,in the past , most Thai s got their car and motorbike licences? The vast majority failed the test, walked out to the front gate and lo and behold ,there was a desk, which for B500, you got your brand new licence. Which , magically got entered in the D.L.T's computers.Now. of course ,with the new Photographic system ,bribing to get your licence has finished, But in the past it was rampant.

Like I said...a bribe was not and never was REQUIRED to get a drivers license if you paid for one.

Perhaps a little palm greasing would get you one if you failed the test.

It is different from a little man saying "you're paperwork is all in order and you passed the test -- but you don't get a license unless you backhand me a fiver".

Do you see the difference?

As for 30% commissions built in to government tenders...yes, absolutely it exists. But that effects you or anyone else on this form how, exactly?

It makes my tax prohibitively high, and results in sub-standard construction, and 30% less new roads.

It means that the people who do the best job do not prosper, and so there is no incentive to doing a good job.

It means the hospitals spend all their time trying to squeeze brains back into broken heads, looking after the stupid and reckless instead of the unfortunate.

I agree it is good to keep the poor of Thailand disadvantaged and ignorant, for the benefit of foreign tourists, the local elite and sex tourists, but my company was not willing to pay the price in extra tax and lower efficiency, and so now most of our work in Thailand is done from overseas. Nice nights out for the boys from HK, I suppose.

SC

You're right that systemic high-level corruption is not good for Thailand in the long run.

Is it possible to be against certain types of corruption OK with others? I really don't think most posters here would like a completely corruption-free Thailand.

I thought I was quite clear that I relished the status quo, but sadly from a work perspective was forced to vote with my feet and move to marginally less corrupt environments which are achieving growth and providing opportunities. One of the less obvious problems with corruption is that it allows laws to remain on the statute books that do not align with the society in which people want to live. Apparently. For example, prostitution is illegal (unlike, for example, the UK). Nude dancing is illegal (unlike, for example, the UK), I imagine many of the street markets are illegal and yet, through corruption, these wonderful tourist attractions are able to flourish. And no-one (other than puritans and joggers) are proposing that they should be eliminated - though in the case of the first two, I would be the first to agree that they should be cleared from the street and kept safely behind heavy velvet curtains. I'd not be distressed to see the street markets cleared from the streets and put in market squares as well, but that's just me). Anyway, the same corruption that allows these quite desirable, quaint activities that are such a draw for tourists, also allows the flourishing infringement of copyright, and sale of dangerous weapons, on the street. If there were no corruption, it would be necessary to align the laws to what people really wanted, rather than pandering to pretence of morality while allowing us all to continue indulging our vices.

I suppose the Common Law was the tool by which Britain was able to shape the modern world so effectively; the application of equity (meaning fairness, not share ownership!) as well as statute in the execution of justice, and the role of the juror in enforcing the standards of society.

SC

[Richard4849]

It would certainly be a very, very different place if corruption were stamped out completely.

I think I'll vote for the status quo, too.

[chiangmaibruce]

To get way back to the OP ... "could this work here?"

1. No, because as someone has already reported, most Thais don't see it as a problem to be stamped out and would just roll their eyes if they read something

2. No, because of the strict defamation laws in Thailand ... the person pointing the finger would be in the courts long before any of the corrupt ones appeared there (if ever)

[richieudon]

My wife was offered a driving license for 2000 baht.

She didn't even have to leave the house...

She declined saying that she could probably get one for 500

[Richard4849]

My wife was offered a driving license for 2000 baht.

She didn't even have to leave the house...

She declined saying that she could probably get one for 500

She can also get one for free (other than the official fee) if she'd get off her butt and go get one the correct way.

[edwinchester]

My wife was offered a driving license for 2000 baht.

She didn't even have to leave the house...

She declined saying that she could probably get one for 500

She can also get one for free (other than the official fee) if she'd get off her butt and go get one the correct way.

Dick, I think you'll find that the 500 bht is the official fee for a drivers licence.

[mario299]

My wife was offered a driving license for 2000 baht.

She didn't even have to leave the house...

She declined saying that she could probably get one for 500

She can also get one for free (other than the official fee) if she'd get off her butt and go get one the correct way.

My goodness you're stubborn about this driver's license question. Have you done the Thai driving license ordeal yourself, or are you just talk, talk, talking.??

You don't get anything for free, but if you are not able to pass any or all of the tests they give you...i.e. color blind, reaction, depth perception, actual driving etc, then you fail and can either try again (and again) for additional costs (no free lunch here), or you can pay one of the nice clerical staff people something in the area of 2000 baht and "ta-dah!", receive your legal Thai driver's license. That's a fact, and that's the way it is here. Corruption ?, yes., Right or wrong?, Up to you. That's the way it is.

mario299

[krangeek]

Doesn't sound familiar to me. People don't have to pay bribes to get a drivers license or register their house here. Mostly, people here pay bribes to get out of having done something wrong -- like traffic violations and running a bar that is a front for prostitution...

Up until a few years ago it was quite possible to pay a bribe to get a driving licence here. It was also possible to pay a bribe to to get to the front of the queue when registering a house.

I think there's a big difference between "possible" and "necessary".

If you HAD to pay a bribe to do the things you are rightfully entitled to do is one thing.

If you have the POSSIBILITY to pay a bribe to expedite things (if you're in a big hurry or are not qualified) is another.

Most so-called "bribery" in Thailand is in fact a convenience fee paid voluntarily by people who want an advantage.

Big difference in my mind.

And your local OrBorJor et al WILL make you wait at least the mandatory 3-4 months before granting 'planning permission' to circumvent the 'law' here in order for anyone to sling up that bug ugly 'condo' building unless the 'brown envelope' contains at least10k-40k (this's going back a bit ...)..Which aforesaid bug ugly building exceeds, no, wait, the 'permitted height ' of such structure, directly opposite your home.

How do you feel about bribery and corruption endemic in this country then, then?

Edited June 7, 2011 by krangeek

[Richard4849]

Doesn't sound familiar to me. People don't have to pay bribes to get a drivers license or register their house here. Mostly, people here pay bribes to get out of having done something wrong -- like traffic violations and running a bar that is a front for prostitution...

Up until a few years ago it was quite possible to pay a bribe to get a driving licence here. It was also possible to pay a bribe to to get to the front of the queue when registering a house.

I think there's a big difference between "possible" and "necessary".

If you HAD to pay a bribe to do the things you are rightfully entitled to do is one thing.

If you have the POSSIBILITY to pay a bribe to expedite things (if you're in a big hurry or are not qualified) is another.

Most so-called "bribery" in Thailand is in fact a convenience fee paid voluntarily by people who want an advantage.

Big difference in my mind.

And your local OrBorJor et al WILL make you wait at least the mandatory 3-4 months before granting 'planning permission' to circumvent the 'law' here in order for anyone to sling up that bug ugly 'condo' building unless the 'brown envelope' contains at least10k-40k (this's going back a bit ...)..Which aforesaid bug ugly building exceeds, no, wait, the 'permitted height ' of such structure, directly opposite your home.

How do you feel about bribery and corruption endemic in this country then, then?

How do I feel about it?

I think it benefits me more than harms me.

If I wanted to live in Singapore, I'd live in Singapore.

That's how I feel about it.

[Richard4849]

My wife was offered a driving license for 2000 baht.

She didn't even have to leave the house...

She declined saying that she could probably get one for 500

She can also get one for free (other than the official fee) if she'd get off her butt and go get one the correct way.

My goodness you're stubborn about this driver's license question. Have you done the Thai driving license ordeal yourself, or are you just talk, talk, talking.??

You don't get anything for free, but if you are not able to pass any or all of the tests they give you...i.e. color blind, reaction, depth perception, actual driving etc, then you fail and can either try again (and again) for additional costs (no free lunch here), or you can pay one of the nice clerical staff people something in the area of 2000 baht and "ta-dah!", receive your legal Thai driver's license. That's a fact, and that's the way it is here. Corruption ?, yes., Right or wrong?, Up to you. That's the way it is.

mario299

Of course I have a bloody drivers license. I passed the test and paid the official fee. Ten minute start to finish...is that what you call an "ordeal"?

Anyway, if you think I'm stubborn then you're not listening.

Let em try to explain again -- I know it's difficult.

1. People who are qualified to drive can get a drivers license very, very easily with no under-the-table expected or required.

2. Only people who can't pass the silly test have to pay under the table -- then they BITCH AND MOAN ABOUT CORRUPTION???? They are getting a HUGE benefit from the existence of corruption: they are getting a drivers license they aren't otherwise qualified for! What -- would they rather, be condemned to a life riding the bus, or pay a few few red notes? THEN THEY COMPLAIN ABOUT CORRUPTION! Please explain that to me.

LOL.

Get it now?

[sunnyhor]

Heard of this? When in Rome, do the Romans do!!! In this entire universe, that's too much of this craps to post!!!! Perhaps a good will from you, but fact it!!!!

[CWMcMurray]

I have to agree with Richard... it is possible to get a driver's license without having to pay any under the table. I went through the process twice, once for car license and then again for motorcycle license. In both cases no additional under the table money was requested. Once in Bangkok and the second time upcountry.

[SteeleJoe]

Despite so many years living in Thailand, There are 3 things that I have found quite surprising about TVF since I joined a few months ago:

-- The number of people who are rabidly, irrationally, overwhelmingly anti-Thailand and hate virtually everything about it.

-- The number of people who are absurdly, irredeemably, uncontrollably blinded to its faults and refuse to acknowledge almost anything significantly wrong here.

-- The people who can blithely brush away concerns about corruption (who oddly enough often come from both preceding groups though most often from the latter).

It is a topic that wears me out as it is one that a person can write pages and pages about but I've done that too many times elsewhere (and ranted about it verbally far too often and obviously with no benefit to anyone). And besides, I need to get into bed and am not about to give the subject the attention it truly deserves but I have to say this:

People who evince little or no concern about corruption fall into roughly 2 categories (at least it seems to me at 1AM to be so) that aren't in fact very far apart -- and often mix:

'Corruption is one of the good things about this country! I get out of any trouble with just a bit of money so why object to it? Who cares what it does to the country.'

or

'Corruption is just the way things are done here and it's all very convenient for everyone concerned. It's basically a service fee for nice underpaid Thai folks who mean no harm.'

Breathtaking selfishness, malice, ignorance, and denial.

The callous cynics I can understand, though I find them repugnant. But the apologists and deniers...The idea that the small stuff (a "convenience fee") is OK but 'maybe the big stuff isn't so good -- but lets try to ignore that'...get a grip. The reason why the small stuff is possible is that corruption is systemic, systematic and virtually universal. (How do cops get away with taking a few hundred from you for speeding? Moreover, why MUST they take it? Because they pay bribes to their bosses. Just to keep their job or rise in it. The fact that someone can pay and get away with killing someone is directly related to the cops pocketing 300 for a speeding violation.) And there are thousands of other examples -- minor and major -- of the damage done (some of which Cowboy so skillfully presented).

Let's not even get into what it has done to the political system...and why the Thais have the choices they have..

Putting simply:

Corruption engenders and perpetuates crippling poverty and inhumane levels of injustice. It ruins lives. It kills.

Yes, I benefit from corruption. However I, and my family, also suffer as result of it as ultimately all of us do who make this place our home. Maybe I come out ahead in the deal overall but I'd like to believe that if someone waved a magic wand and made corruption go away, and as result Thailand wasn't as good place for me to live anymore -- or even if I could no longer live here after decades of doing so, that I'd be happy for the Thais and OK with my fate.

You people who -- for whichever of the 2 reasons I presented above or any other -- think it's not to be worried about and/or it's even a good thing in a way...well, you really do my head in.

Rant over? I think so.

Edited June 7, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[moe666]

My girlfriend says when you need retirement extension I have friend in immigration who can do for 20,000baht. I say no problem I will meet all of the requirements cost me a few thousand.

[Richard4849]

SteeleJoe,

I understand and agree.

But I learned a long time not to sweat the things that you are powerless to change. Make the best of them, and let other people worry.

Selfish, sure.

Practical, most definitely.

PS: I still think it is in poor form to on one hand take advantage of corruption, and then to poo-poo it on the other. That's why I don't poo-poo it -- I would feel like a big fat hypocrite next time I handed a red note to a cop to get out of a speeding ticket.

Edited June 7, 2011 by Richard4849