Corruption -Tell Everyone!

[SteeleJoe]

SteeleJoe,

I understand and agree.

But I learned a long time not to sweat the things that you are powerless to change. Make the best of them, and let other people worry.

Selfish, sure.

Practical, most definitely.

PS: I still think it is in poor form to on one hand take advantage of corruption, and then to poo-poo it on the other. That's why I don't poo-poo it -- I would feel like a big fat hypocrite next time I handed a red note to a cop to get out of a speeding ticket.

I'm selfish and practical too. I also don't sweat what I can't change either in that I hardly agonize over the corruption on a daily basis or lose any sleep over it. Indeed most days I don't spend any time thinking about it. I'm quite jaded.

But when it is, for whatever reason, a topic, I don't pretend it's OK. I'm not sure how pretending it was OK -- just because I benefit from it and know that I can't change it -- would make me less of a hypocrite.

Either you think it's wrong and yet participate in it (like me), or you think it's OK . I don't see how refusing to "poo-poo it" -- and even trying to rationalize it and diminish its impact -- is somehow more appropriate or less hypocritical. I think that makes one a hypocrite and a liar (who winds up saying some ignorant and ugly things in defending or excusing corruption).

[StreetCowboy]

Perhaps if there was less corruption people would learn to drive safely

Perhaps if there was less corruption the roads would be built better; safer layouts, less pot-holes, better visibility of signage...

SC

[aussiebebe]

I don't think a corruption reporting site will ever take off here, Thai Visa forum pretty much satisfies that need for expats.

The latest development which could make a real impact is that the UK government has passed laws prohibiting British firms from accepting or making bribes overseas. This means that if a company knows it's competitors can report them and they can be prosecuted in the UK, they will have real incentive not to engage in graft. This is quite a bold move as only if other countries follow suit, could we see real change. If not, UK firms will be at a huge competitive disadvantage.

[Richard4849]

Perhaps if there was less corruption people would learn to drive safely

Perhaps if there was less corruption the roads would be built better; safer layouts, less pot-holes, better visibility of signage...

SC

Yes, perhaps.

And perhaps there would be no naughty nightlife, no choice but to surrender your drivers license and take a ticket when committing a violation, no street vendors selling delicious food, and no chance to buy your way out of trouble if you really got into a jam, etc., etc.

I wonder how many expats would honestly make that sacrifice to rid the land of corruption, if it came down to a choice? I would have to give it a long, hard think.

[wolfmanjack]

Doesn't sound familiar to me. People don't have to pay bribes to get a drivers license or register their house here. Mostly, people here pay bribes to get out of having done something wrong -- like traffic violations and running a bar that is a front for prostitution...

Up until a few years ago it was quite possible to pay a bribe to get a driving licence here. It was also possible to pay a bribe to to get to the front of the queue when registering a house.

I think there's a big difference between "possible" and "necessary".

If you HAD to pay a bribe to do the things you are rightfully entitled to do is one thing.

If you have the POSSIBILITY to pay a bribe to expedite things (if you're in a big hurry or are not qualified) is another.

Most so-called "bribery" in Thailand is in fact a convenience fee paid voluntarily by people who want an advantage.

Big difference in my mind.

Okay here is an example for you. I have customers that own furniture stores. The police come in and see some teak furniture. They want some of the furniture for their home for free. The owner says no. I have all my licenses and paperwork so have done nothing wrong so will not pay a bribe. The police say that is fine. We will confiscate all of your furniture, computers and files as evidence. You will not be allowed to operate your business while we investigate. It will probably take us 6 months to a year to complete our investigation. You will probably be found to have done everything properly but will you have any customers left by then. The guy gave the police the furniture they wanted and continued to pay monthly. This is how it really works here if you are doing business here and yes this is a true story.

[StreetCowboy]

Perhaps if there was less corruption people would learn to drive safely

Perhaps if there was less corruption the roads would be built better; safer layouts, less pot-holes, better visibility of signage...

SC

Yes, perhaps.

And perhaps there would be no naughty nightlife, no choice but to surrender your drivers license and take a ticket when committing a violation, no street vendors selling delicious food, and no chance to buy your way out of trouble if you really got into a jam, etc., etc.

I wonder how many expats would honestly make that sacrifice to rid the land of corruption, if it came down to a choice? I would have to give it a long, hard think.

A fair point. Though perhaps the morality of travelling to foreign countries to enjoy lawlessness is questionable. I expect most people would draw the line of acceptability somewhere between eating street food and paedophilia. Personally, I might prefer a set of laws that reflected the standards of society and that were enforced. I have never had any problems with traffic police anywhere, so the knowledge that most of my peers on the road feel no need to drive sensibly does not fill me with confidence.

SC

[Richard4849]

Doesn't sound familiar to me. People don't have to pay bribes to get a drivers license or register their house here. Mostly, people here pay bribes to get out of having done something wrong -- like traffic violations and running a bar that is a front for prostitution...

Up until a few years ago it was quite possible to pay a bribe to get a driving licence here. It was also possible to pay a bribe to to get to the front of the queue when registering a house.

I think there's a big difference between "possible" and "necessary".

If you HAD to pay a bribe to do the things you are rightfully entitled to do is one thing.

If you have the POSSIBILITY to pay a bribe to expedite things (if you're in a big hurry or are not qualified) is another.

Most so-called "bribery" in Thailand is in fact a convenience fee paid voluntarily by people who want an advantage.

Big difference in my mind.

Okay here is an example for you. I have customers that own furniture stores. The police come in and see some teak furniture. They want some of the furniture for their home for free. The owner says no. I have all my licenses and paperwork so have done nothing wrong so will not pay a bribe. The police say that is fine. We will confiscate all of your furniture, computers and files as evidence. You will not be allowed to operate your business while we investigate. It will probably take us 6 months to a year to complete our investigation. You will probably be found to have done everything properly but will you have any customers left by then. The guy gave the police the furniture they wanted and continued to pay monthly. This is how it really works here if you are doing business here and yes this is a true story.

Obviously, that kind of shake-down is far from acceptable and shouldn't happen in any civilized place.

[wolfmanjack]

Richard, How do you think ,in the past , most Thai s got their car and motorbike licences? The vast majority failed the test, walked out to the front gate and lo and behold ,there was a desk, which for B500, you got your brand new licence. Which , magically got entered in the D.L.T's computers.Now. of course ,with the new Photographic system ,bribing to get your licence has finished, But in the past it was rampant.

10 years ago you could pay the person giving the test 500 baht to make sure you passed but you had to pay before you took the test.

[Richard4849]

Richard, How do you think ,in the past , most Thai s got their car and motorbike licences? The vast majority failed the test, walked out to the front gate and lo and behold ,there was a desk, which for B500, you got your brand new licence. Which , magically got entered in the D.L.T's computers.Now. of course ,with the new Photographic system ,bribing to get your licence has finished, But in the past it was rampant.

10 years ago you could pay the person giving the test 500 baht to make sure you passed but you had to pay before you took the test.

I've had my Thai drivers license for over twenty years, and honestly can't recall if I was given that option. If I was, I didn't take it -- because I do clearly recall taking the test (and it wasn't very difficult so I'm not sure what the fuss is about). I'm just glad I got my lifetime license before they did away with those, so I never have to set foot at the Transportation Department ever again. Renewing my US license at the DMV back home is one of the most unpleasant chores ever.

[wolfmanjack]

Obviously, that kind of shake-down is far from acceptable and shouldn't happen in any civilized place.

Happens here all the time. I hire someone to deal with the government for me so I pay as little bribes as possible. I do not know how it is now but when I set up business here 11 years ago i had to pay under the table to get all of my permits to build, get the electric and phone installed,get all of my various factory licenses etc etc etc. I had the option to not pay but after being delayed for a few months by being told you application will be approved next week then next week next week next week I finally took the people to lunch to find out how much to get things approved. As it turned out some of them had already been approved but the people in the local office were still telling me next week.

The amount of corruption I have to pay does vary with who is in government. When Thaksin was in office i had the police, the army and several different gov offices coming to get money. When the Junta was in office no one came to my factory to ask. i only had to pay if i went to the gov office to ask for something. Now with the dems in office i only have 2 government offices the bother me and that is only once in a while. Not every month like when thaksin was in office. To be fair when PPP took over the payments went up but did not go back up to the same level as when Thaksin was in office. Hopefully they won't go back that high again if PT get back in office.

[wolfmanjack]

Richard, How do you think ,in the past , most Thai s got their car and motorbike licences? The vast majority failed the test, walked out to the front gate and lo and behold ,there was a desk, which for B500, you got your brand new licence. Which , magically got entered in the D.L.T's computers.Now. of course ,with the new Photographic system ,bribing to get your licence has finished, But in the past it was rampant.

10 years ago you could pay the person giving the test 500 baht to make sure you passed but you had to pay before you took the test.

I've had my Thai drivers license for over twenty years, and honestly can't recall if I was given that option. If I was, I didn't take it -- because I do clearly recall taking the test (and it wasn't very difficult so I'm not sure what the fuss is about). I'm just glad I got my lifetime license before they did away with those, so I never have to set foot at the Transportation Department ever again. Renewing my US license at the DMV back home is one of the most unpleasant chores ever.

I did not pay the 500 either but my wife did. She could not pass the parallel parking part of the driving test and she knew it.

[Richard4849]

Obviously, that kind of shake-down is far from acceptable and shouldn't happen in any civilized place.

Happens here all the time. I hire someone to deal with the government for me so I pay as little bribes as possible. I do not know how it is now but when I set up business here 11 years ago i had to pay under the table to get all of my permits to build, get the electric and phone installed,get all of my various factory licenses etc etc etc. I had the option to not pay but after being delayed for a few months by being told you application will be approved next week then next week next week next week I finally took the people to lunch to find out how much to get things approved. As it turned out some of them had already been approved but the people in the local office were still telling me next week.

The amount of corruption I have to pay does vary with who is in government. When Thaksin was in office i had the police, the army and several different gov offices coming to get money. When the Junta was in office no one came to my factory to ask. i only had to pay if i went to the gov office to ask for something. Now with the dems in office i only have 2 government offices the bother me and that is only once in a while. Not every month like when thaksin was in office. To be fair when PPP took over the payments went up but did not go back up to the same level as when Thaksin was in office. Hopefully they won't go back that high again if PT get back in office.

What pretext are they using to collect money these days, since your permits are already in place? Renewals and such?

I have only been involved in office-based businesses (no manufacturing, retail, nightlife, etc.), and have never been approached.

[Richard4849]

Richard, How do you think ,in the past , most Thai s got their car and motorbike licences? The vast majority failed the test, walked out to the front gate and lo and behold ,there was a desk, which for B500, you got your brand new licence. Which , magically got entered in the D.L.T's computers.Now. of course ,with the new Photographic system ,bribing to get your licence has finished, But in the past it was rampant.

10 years ago you could pay the person giving the test 500 baht to make sure you passed but you had to pay before you took the test.

I've had my Thai drivers license for over twenty years, and honestly can't recall if I was given that option. If I was, I didn't take it -- because I do clearly recall taking the test (and it wasn't very difficult so I'm not sure what the fuss is about). I'm just glad I got my lifetime license before they did away with those, so I never have to set foot at the Transportation Department ever again. Renewing my US license at the DMV back home is one of the most unpleasant chores ever.

I did not pay the 500 either but my wife did. She could not pass the parallel parking part of the driving test and she knew it.

Ha! So, there's one person that should be happy for the existence of corruption in Thailand! Otherwise, her butt would be on the bus!

[jayjayjayjay]

Doesn't the OP realise it is pointless living and/or working in Asia unless you are going to accept bribes being solicted from time to time. Live with it. Your not going to change the mind of a policeman who had to pay his superior XX baht in 1985 for his first promotion (ie. pay or your going nowhere). That same policeman has continued to pay and continued to solict from his subordinates for the same path to the top. Only his final payout is considered cashing in the chips. That is a 35 year long program. It is ingrained in every public servant. The only exceptions have power and influence. That's the way it works, Live with it. As Saman said, you can avoid it most of the time in daily life. The other side of the coin is paying 20,000 baht equivalent fines every time you go 5km/hour over the speed limit back in your home country.

Edited June 8, 2011 by jayjayjayjay

[krangeek]

Doesn't sound familiar to me. People don't have to pay bribes to get a drivers license or register their house here. Mostly, people here pay bribes to get out of having done something wrong -- like traffic violations and running a bar that is a front for prostitution...

Up until a few years ago it was quite possible to pay a bribe to get a driving licence here. It was also possible to pay a bribe to to get to the front of the queue when registering a house.

Much as we all complain about the corruption here it is the free and easy lifestyle that it leads to that makes the place so attractive to many of us. Once the place becomes a clone of the US or Europe with all the rules and regulations that go with it I for one will be looking for somewhere else to live. I'm not a criminal, just someone who really doesn't think that a couple of miles per hour over the speed limit is a crime, nor putting your bin out on the wrong day, or failing to sort your rubbish into 7 different categories of crap!!

I love it here and am happy to let the Thai's get on with their country the way they like. If they want to become more like the West (or India as that was the original topic!) so be it but when you look at the state of the various economies in the West these days I'm not sure that preaching that particular gospel is necessarily the right way to go!

Hope you never have to report a serious case/have a problem with the police here ...

[wolfmanjack]

Obviously, that kind of shake-down is far from acceptable and shouldn't happen in any civilized place.

Happens here all the time. I hire someone to deal with the government for me so I pay as little bribes as possible. I do not know how it is now but when I set up business here 11 years ago i had to pay under the table to get all of my permits to build, get the electric and phone installed,get all of my various factory licenses etc etc etc. I had the option to not pay but after being delayed for a few months by being told you application will be approved next week then next week next week next week I finally took the people to lunch to find out how much to get things approved. As it turned out some of them had already been approved but the people in the local office were still telling me next week.

The amount of corruption I have to pay does vary with who is in government. When Thaksin was in office i had the police, the army and several different gov offices coming to get money. When the Junta was in office no one came to my factory to ask. i only had to pay if i went to the gov office to ask for something. Now with the dems in office i only have 2 government offices the bother me and that is only once in a while. Not every month like when thaksin was in office. To be fair when PPP took over the payments went up but did not go back up to the same level as when Thaksin was in office. Hopefully they won't go back that high again if PT get back in office.

What pretext are they using to collect money these days, since your permits are already in place? Renewals and such?

I have only been involved in office-based businesses (no manufacturing, retail, nightlife, etc.), and have never been approached.

They do not use a pretext most of the time. the first thing they do is ask for all of my paperwork. then when they see i have all the permits and necessary licenses then they ask if i can help them out with a couple of thousand baht a month. Sometimes they show up and say they are having a retirement party, going away party, or a party for a new incoming boss and they ask if i can donate a case of johnny walker. that is when the negotiations begin by me telling them how bad business has been since the baht went to 30 to the $ etc etc.

[wolfmanjack]

10 years ago you could pay the person giving the test 500 baht to make sure you passed but you had to pay before you took the test.

I've had my Thai drivers license for over twenty years, and honestly can't recall if I was given that option. If I was, I didn't take it -- because I do clearly recall taking the test (and it wasn't very difficult so I'm not sure what the fuss is about). I'm just glad I got my lifetime license before they did away with those, so I never have to set foot at the Transportation Department ever again. Renewing my US license at the DMV back home is one of the most unpleasant chores ever.

I did not pay the 500 either but my wife did. She could not pass the parallel parking part of the driving test and she knew it.

Ha! So, there's one person that should be happy for the existence of corruption in Thailand! Otherwise, her butt would be on the bus!

i wish her butt would have been on the bus. She got in a lot of accidents her first year of driving. Luckily they were all in the parking lots.

[SteeleJoe]

Wow, missed this the first time...

Most so-called "bribery" in Thailand is in fact a convenience fee paid voluntarily by people who want an advantage.

That not only contains that distasteful euphemism "convenience fee" (distasteful because it's so misleading and apologist -- how could an otherwise reasonable and intelligent person bring himself to use that?) , but it's just plain wrong (factually, let alone morally).

Wolfman: I know dozens of stories like yours. It's commonplace.

[Richard4849]

What do YOU call a 100% voluntary payment made by people who aren't qualified for for what they want or who want it faster or more conveniently than it would normally be?

This is a completely different animal from a shake-down when you have done nothing wrong. See?

[SteeleJoe]

<br />What do YOU call a 100% voluntary payment made by people who aren't qualified for for what they want or who want it faster or more conveniently than it would normally be?<br />

<br /><br /><u>I</u> call it "a bribe"

I call it "a bribe". I call it an effort to subvert the law. I call another act that undermines rule of law. I call it part and parcel of a terrible problem that exists in this country. I call it perpetuating a system that does massive damage. I call it a symptom of a horrible disease...need I go on? I don't rate my posts muc\h but I had hoped I had made my position clear earlier: it's pointless, intellectually dishonest, inaccurate and hypocritical to try and characterize some of the corruption as benign and even moreso to claim that's what the majority of the corruption is. <br /><br />

This is a completely different animal from a shake-down when you have done nothing wrong. See?

<br /><br />No, I don't. Is the the latter more infuriating and more unjust? Sure. Is it more unethical? Not sure about that at all. And again --- it's all part of the same problem.

And forgive me for being presumptuous and again if I'm wrong but I think I can guess you next comment/question (because it's an obvious and reasonable one:

Why do I then participate in this thing that I think so harmful? Well, I've already said: It's to my advantage and that of my family (though I don't make any money off of it)and I know that it's the way thigs work here and IO can do nothing about that; I'm selfsih enough and jaded enough to live with that. But I'm not going to pretend it's not all that bad and most of it is just a "Convenience fee". Nor am I going to go out of my way -- as you seem to repeatedly do -- to put the blam eentirely on the peope who pay the bribe rather than those who solicit it and (also) benefit from it while violating ethical and legal codes to do so.

Edited June 8, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[Richard4849]

Yet you still willingly fuel this heinous problem whenever convenient? Does that not put you squarely at the root, besides being a hypocrite?

[RedFxTrade]

Perhaps if there was less corruption people would learn to drive safely

Perhaps if there was less corruption the roads would be built better; safer layouts, less pot-holes, better visibility of signage...

SC

Yes, perhaps.

And perhaps there would be no naughty nightlife, no choice but to surrender your drivers license and take a ticket when committing a violation, no street vendors selling delicious food, and no chance to buy your way out of trouble if you really got into a jam, etc., etc.

I wonder how many expats would honestly make that sacrifice to rid the land of corruption, if it came down to a choice? I would have to give it a long, hard think.

Have read through most of this thread. I m in between the UK and Bangkok often, and have lived in Bangkok for long spells, however, being in the West now shows me that being Thailand is much more desirable, and when I have been in Thailand its always felt more relaxed and less intrusive. I think a lot of the posters should come back to the West to get some perspective. I m kind of on Richards argument here...The UK , and from what I can gather from US friends, and in the EU is becoming an evermore bureaucratic night mare.

The place feels sterile, boring, there are new rules and regulations coming out every day designed to govern and interfere in every little nook and cranny of our lives. What business is it of some politician who I probably never endorsed in any election tells me that I must pay 70% tax on a bottle of wine, that I must not take too much salt, what type of light bulb I need to put in my house. There is this attempt here to micromanage every aspect of an individuals life.

I have listened to the stories of some small business owners who are in agreement. A cafe in a town wants to put a few small tables and chairs out the front of the shop, and the nice man from the council comes a long and says you need to pay a yearly fee for that...or he will be sent to court and to pay a £3000 fine.

A local hairdresser to ease the boredom for waiting customers wants to put a TV on the wall. She has to buy a TV license, which she expected, but now someone calls in to tell her to buy a music license.

And all the stories are coming out from all the corruption in the councils and politicians expenses. Councils have been spending millions of tax payers money on credit card and now refuse to give over details of what it was spent on. For me this is corruption under the guise of socialism. The money might not go to a policeman, but it goes to some bureaucrat to waste and spend on his house, travel, food. Have you seen the food bill for some of these guys for a year?

The bank bailouts also. A complete and utter corruption of the system, with government and corporations and the banks all in bed together. We might paint it in nice language in the West, and under the guise of social good, and necessary for the good of society and the economy.Total rubbish. Politicians have spent so much that the West is now bankrupt. And now want to to tax citizens who are already highly taxed even more. For me, a government that takes 50% of your income tax, add 20% VAT, has a monopoly over alcohol pricing, and charges you 70% tax on petrol through force and coercion is corruption., The government call it TAX. For me that is real corruption, that politicians spend other peoples money, and squandered their savings without the means of production to pay it back...

Edited June 8, 2011 by RedFxTrade

[SteeleJoe]

Yet you still willingly fuel this heinous problem whenever convenient? Does that not put you squarely at the root, besides being a hypocrite?

I've answered that question twice -- indeed I anticipated your question in my last post and answered it:

Yes it does. At least I am not lying about it as you apparently do (if not then you are astonishingly deluded and ignorant -- in the true sense of the word, not the pejorative -- but that seems unlikely as you occasionally tacitly and even explicitly agree with what is in fact undeniable).

I am not blameless -- as very few if any are -- and I never claimed to be and indeed have made very clear that I was not. At least I am not making excuses for it and denying the truth of how ugly and harmful the situation is. (However, in fact it's not a matter of mere "convenience". I am not willing to get any more specific than that. And if you think it's not virtually impossible to live in this country and in no way ever "fuel" this heinous problem then you know some things I don't )

See, I address your point but you fail to address mine.

[Richard4849]

What have I lied about?

I prefer not to be a hypocrite by ranting against corruption while often enjoying it's benefits.

I have never been subjected to anything but the optional firm of corruption -- where you gladly pitch in to get an advantage.

Yes -- it is called a facility payment and many pieces of nternational anti-bribery legislation like FCPA make the distinction and make exceptions for it.

If you don't want to in your personal viewpoint, that's your personal prerogative. I don't see why you have to use words like "repugnant" against people who don't agree with you.

Have I answered your questions to your satisfaction now?

[SteeleJoe]

What have I lied about?

I prefer not to be a hypocrite by ranting against corruption while often enjoying it's benefits.

I have never been subjected to anything but the optional firm of corruption -- where you gladly pitch in to get an advantage.

Yes -- it is called a facility payment and many pieces of nternational anti-bribery legislation like FCPA make the distinction and make exceptions for it.

If you don't want to in your personal viewpoint, that's your personal prerogative. I don't see why you have to use words like "repugnant" against people who don't agree with you.

Have I answered your questions to your satisfaction now?

The lie is to claim that "most so-called "bribery" in Thailand is in fact a convenience fee paid voluntarily by people who want an advantage." and to repeatedly imply that corruption is ultimately OK since it allows us certain things when you know -- I had assumed -- that is simply not a tenable position -- logically or morally (especially since you said "systemic high-level corruption is not good for Thailand in the long run" and yet have never refuted the notion that the idea of "convenience fees" being seperate from the systemic corruption is a false dichotomy.)

The lie is pretending that because you are only involved in the benign "voluntary" corruption, and you don't ever complain about it and if possible avoid acknowledging the more insidious aspects of it all, that you are somehow not a hypocrite and that a person who does recognize and grimly accept that corruption is doing great harm is the one who has something to be ashamed of.

YOU have never been subjected to anything but the optional firm of corruption? great. So never mind about what happens to the rest of the country. And never mid that as it stands, people like you (and me) have the ability to get things that others less wealthy should also be able to have -- perhaps before us -- but can not because of their more limited funds. Never mind that people who should not be allowed certain things (an unqualified driver getting a license, an unsafe builder getting a permit and on and on) will be allowed them to the detriment of others.

I don't see why you have to use words like "repugnant" against people who don't agree with you.

It's awfully dishonest of you to characterize that as me calling those who disagre with me, repugnant". It also weak, as a method of argument -- as any use of a straw man is. My post clearly states that it is the people with this attitude who I am referring to:

'Corruption is one of the good things about this country! I get out of any trouble with just a bit of money so why object to it? Who cares what it does to the country.''

I said "The callous cynics I can understand, though I find them repugnant." Why did I say that? Because I do. You don't find the above repugnant? Perhaps I understand why, now. But it's interesting -- what was this about then in response to that very same post?

SteeleJoe,

I understand and agree.

Oh, and I didn't ask you to answer questions. I mentioned addressing my points. And no, in fact many of them you have not (as is of course your right).

Edited June 8, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[SteeleJoe]

Just noticed -- "ranting"? Nice. Go for the loaded rhetoric. Subtle. I like the "pich in" bit too...'Bribe? What bribe? We're all in this together! Just helping out!'

Edited June 8, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[Richard4849]

You can use words like repugnant but tou get all self-righteous when I use the word rant? Really?

I think your vision is completely clouded over by blind rage.

What I meant was that most corruption that any farang nott in a vice business (bar, brothel, whatever) is likely to encounter is the kind where they don't have to participate if they don't want. The big, systemic stuff has no bearing on the average farang expat, tourist, retiree...

90% of the time O hear farangs bitching about corruption, they've just VOLUNTARILY given a cop a fiver to let them off for speeding, or enjoyed a night out looking at female flesh enabled by a bar owner paying someone to look the other way.

They don't really want an end to corruption -- they'd be on the first bus to Cambodia.

Farangs shouldn't get worked up about a politician skimming 30% off a dam project or pumping station. It doesn't affect them one bit. It's a matter for Thais to get worked up over.

Too many whingeing farangs like to mouth off about corruption, when it is working on their favor every single day. Farangs NEED corruption to continue for their part to continue. I'm just saying that not enough of the whingers stop to think about it.

If there are any more repugnant lies in what I've written above, or if I have missed any of your ranting -- I mean talking -- points, then please do let me know.

[SteeleJoe]

FWIW:

The first difference between the FCPA and the Act which has been much commented upon is the carve-out contained in the FCPA in relation to "facilitation" or "grease" payments. These are payments made to foreign officials to expedite routine government business within that foreign jurisdiction. Whilst much has been made of this difference, it should be noted that in practice the effects of the FCPA carve-out are fairly narrow as the key wording ("routine governmental action") means that facilitation payments are not allowed in relation to decisions about awarding new business or continuing existing dealings. Nevertheless, some international operators who may be set up to function in accordance with the American carve-outs could be caught out by the fact that no such exemptions exist in the UK Act.

Whilst the general attitude towards facilitation payments is one of zero-tolerance, the Adequate Procedures Guidance highlights that a prosecutor will have discretion in deciding whether it is in the public interest to pursue a particular prosecution. Whilst a company should have a general policy of probationary facility payment there may be a defence where a payment is made to protect against loss of life, limb or liberty.

The second difference to be noted is that whilst the FCPA is concerned only with the bribery of government officials, the Act makes no such distinctions and will apply to both public and private sector bribery.

[aneliane]

Doesn't sound familiar to me. People don't have to pay bribes to get a drivers license or register their house here. Mostly, people here pay bribes to get out of having done something wrong -- like traffic violations and running a bar that is a front for prostitution...

Up until a few years ago it was quite possible to pay a bribe to get a driving licence here. It was also possible to pay a bribe to to get to the front of the queue when registering a house.

Much as we all complain about the corruption here it is the free and easy lifestyle that it leads to that makes the place so attractive to many of us. Once the place becomes a clone of the US or Europe with all the rules and regulations that go with it I for one will be looking for somewhere else to live. I'm not a criminal, just someone who really doesn't think that a couple of miles per hour over the speed limit is a crime, nor putting your bin out on the wrong day, or failing to sort your rubbish into 7 different categories of crap!!

I love it here and am happy to let the Thai's get on with their country the way they like. If they want to become more like the West (or India as that was the original topic!) so be it but when you look at the state of the various economies in the West these days I'm not sure that preaching that particular gospel is necessarily the right way to go!

+1 except the garbage bit

[SteeleJoe]

So you don't find that attitude repugnant? I thought you had more regard for Thailand than that (and frankly I thought you of better character). Again, why did you agree?

I think your vision is completely clouded over by blind rage.

Blind rage?! Now you are just being ridiculous.

What I meant was that most corruption that any farang nott in a vice business (bar, brothel, whatever) is likely to encounter is the kind where they don't have to participate if they don't want. The big, systemic stuff has no bearing on the average farang expat, tourist, retiree...

That may be what you meant but that's not even close to what you said. And I can only reply to what is posted.

It has a bearing on an expat as it does on anyone who lives here 9or even someone who cares about thew place and its people -- and not just himself.)

I simply haven't got the energy nor the time to get into that age-old ' farangs shouldn't complain about things in Thailand it's for the Thais to care about' argument and all its variations.

But given that I've pointed out again and again why I think corruption is a bad thing, I don't see why I'd need to -- it transcends being a Farang or not.

If there are any more repugnant lies in what I've written above, or if I have missed any of your ranting -- I mean talking -- points, then please do let me know.

You are distorting the truth again. What I posted -- the use of that word -- is there on the thread twice. It's not only dishonest but dumb to claim I said something else (and you clearly are not usually the latter).

Ranting? Really? You honestly think my posts meet that definition? I find it hard to believe you do. (Or maybe you need to look it up)

Talking points? Hmmm...well, these don't serve very well as that -- and are admittedly are badly written -- but given my lack of time or energy and your lack of interest or willingness to listen objectively, I'll just C&P:

The reason why the small stuff is possible is that corruption is systemic, systematic and virtually universal. (How do cops get away with taking a few hundred from you for speeding? Moreover, why MUST they take it? Because they pay bribes to their bosses. Just to keep their job or rise in it. The fact that someone can pay and get away with killing someone is directly related to the cops pocketing 300 for a speeding violation.) And there are thousands of other examples -- minor and major -- of the damage done (some of which Cowboy so skillfully presented).

Let's not even get into what it has done to the political system...and why the Thais have the choices they have..

Putting simply:

Corruption engenders and perpetuates crippling poverty and inhumane levels of injustice. It ruins lives. It kills.

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I'm selfish and practical too. I also don't sweat what I can't change either in that I hardly agonize over the corruption on a daily basis or lose any sleep over it. Indeed most days I don't spend any time thinking about it. I'm quite jaded.

But when it is, for whatever reason, a topic, I don't pretend it's OK. I'm not sure how pretending it was OK -- just because I benefit from it and know that I can't change it -- would make me less of a hypocrite.

Either you think it's wrong and yet participate in it (like me), or you think it's OK . I don't see how refusing to "poo-poo it" -- and even trying to rationalize it and diminish its impact -- is somehow more appropriate or less hypocritical. I think that makes one a hypocrite and a liar (who winds up saying some ignorant and ugly things in defending or excusing corruption).

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I'm not going to pretend it's not all that bad and most of it is just a "Convenience fee". Nor am I going to go out of my way -- as you seem to repeatedly do -- to put the blame entirely on the people who pay the bribe rather than those who solicit it and (also) benefit from it while violating ethical and legal codes to do so.

I call it "a bribe". I call it an effort to subvert the law. I call another act that undermines rule of law. I call it part and parcel of a terrible problem that exists in this country. I call it perpetuating a system that does massive damage. I call it a symptom of a horrible disease...

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(The lie is) to repeatedly imply that corruption is ultimately OK since it allows us certain things when you know -- I had assumed -- that is simply not a tenable position -- logically or morally (especially since you said "systemic high-level corruption is not good for Thailand in the long run" and yet have never refuted the notion that the idea of "convenience fees" being seperate from the systemic corruption is a false dichotomy.)

The lie is pretending that because you are only involved in the benign "voluntary" corruption, and you don't ever complain about it and if possible avoid acknowledging the more insidious aspects of it all, that you are somehow not a hypocrite and that a person who does recognize and grimly accept that corruption is doing great harm is the one who has something to be ashamed of.

YOU have never been subjected to anything but the optional firm of corruption? Great. So never mind about what happens to the rest of the country. And never mid that as it stands, people like you (and me) have the ability to get things that others less wealthy should also be able to have -- perhaps before us -- but can not because of their more limited funds. Never mind that people who should not be allowed certain things (an unqualified driver getting a license, an unsafe builder getting a permit and on and on) will be allowed them to the detriment of others.

Edited June 8, 2011 by SteeleJoe